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Skipjack Joe - 6-27-2012 at 10:42 AM

Ken,

I just gave you an example. With regards to eternity they emphasize it's negative consequences and omit it's positive ones. Why?

The criticism of Christianity is done by literally analyzing the bible. Yet very few Christians do that. You say then they are not Christians. Yet they consider themselves Christians. The reality is that you define Christians in a manner that most Christians don't. Why is that done? In order to easily debunk the most offensive passages about the bible, passages about wife bestings and slavery. Among other things the bible is a history of morals through the ages. Your judging 10,000 year old morals by current standards and saying how could god have done this. So what happens 10,000 years from now when morals change again. This sort of analysis of Christianity is not being even handed and made me suspicious from the start.

Regarding religious truth vs science. One is intuitive and the other is empirical. Yet you are using criteria of empirical truth (EVIDENCE) to judge both kinds of truth. Why?

Ken Bondy - 6-27-2012 at 10:45 AM

<<Regarding religious truth vs science. One is intuitive and the other is empirical. Yet you are using criteria of empirical truth (EVIDENCE) to judge both kinds of truth. Why?>>

My positions on religious truth (an oxymarooon) and science are both based on evidence. Lack of it for the former, existence of it for the latter.

Ken Bondy - 6-27-2012 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
OK brother ....no evidence? I'm going to share a story with you which when it happened, it sure made me have one of those WTF moments.

When Sirenita was about 4 or maybe 5, one day out of the blue she said to me...you know momma....I chose you. I saw you down there in the panga on the lagoon and thought you would be a great mom.

Why on earth would she say that? Many women have gotten pregnant in the whale lagoon of Ojo de Liebre who were unable to conceive before...seems like there are souls "up there" waiting to come back again....but the thought of one choosing it's host was most interesting....for what it's worth.

Seems to me there is alot of information about reincarnation...stories that I guess cant be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt...but still they make one think.

Sis I am moved by those types of stories. My own hija Coleen is convinced that my grandmother, her great-grandmother, who we both adored and who died 30+ years ago, visits her occasionally. She is certain of that, as is Sirenita that she chose you as her mom, but both stories are without EVIDENCE. I am convinced that our brains are fully capable, at some level of consciousness, of creating stories like that and making us think they are real (think dreams). As sweet as they are, and as much as we want to believe that they are real, they all just happen in the brain. I am glad our brains are capable of doing that, but as I have pointed out, there is a real danger in believing that such things are real.

Pensees

Skipjack Joe - 6-27-2012 at 12:13 PM

From Blaise Pascal:

“The heart has its reasons which reason knows not.”
― Blaise Pascal

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
― Blaise Pascal

Mexitron - 6-27-2012 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Speaking of thinking .. do electron's have "free will" .. taking it down to another level, so to speak

Ever hear of this guy at U. of Oregon?

http://www.amitgoswami.org/

Skipjack Joe - 6-27-2012 at 01:00 PM

He was on PBS the other night. He speaks with a very heavy accent. That, combined with the subject matter, makes him virtually unintelligible.

Mexitron - 6-27-2012 at 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
He was on PBS the other night. He speaks with a very heavy accent. That, combined with the subject matter, makes him virtually unintelligible.

I seemed to get the gist of what he was saying.....but I didn't see him on PBS, just in videos.

Mexitron - 6-27-2012 at 01:17 PM

So Ken, a different angle on the brain thing----about 2 years ago while living in Texas still I had a very vivid dream of a former colleague in California. He was with a blonde woman in the dream--nothing much going on except we're all talking. Now I hadn't seen or even talked with this guy(back to real life) in 5 years. Two weeks later he calls me---says his daughter is going to TCU in Fort Worth and would I like to get together while he and his wife are getting their daughter set up at school. I say sure, of course----we meet at a restaurant and there he is with his lovely blonde wife----who I had never met or seen before, by the way.
My wife can attest to this---I told her about the dream when I woke up and she was suitably amazed when he called.

How do you suppose this information leaked into my dream world ahead of time?

shari - 6-27-2012 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by shari

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Your take on my tribute to a deceased friend is bewildering to me Igor. Declaring it to be "false" is misleading. The feelings expressed in those words were true, even though I knew Jim wasn't bouncing around the universe or flying old airplanes or lying on Baja beaches.

Brother Ken...I am curious how you KNOW your friend isnt lying on a baja beach...just wondering if you have some inside info you can share?

All I know for sure is that I dont know for sure what happens after our body dies....I have some ideas but it's part of the great mystery of life.

Can't resist elaborating on this Sis. I think belief in an afterlife is actually dangerous. If people realized that they've only got one shot at life, I think they would be kinder to each other in the one life we all have. The world would be a better place. If people knew that this is our one and only life, it is unlikely that there would be a lot of airplanes flown into buildings.

hmmm...my thought is that if our soul does in fact return and our karma fulfilled, then I figure we should be as nice as possible so we may come back to a higher level of conciousness and a happier existence. If death is so final...who gives a poop what we do in this life then...there will be no reckoning of any sort which leaves one not really caring about what may happen after.....which in my humble opinion is more dangerous.

Cypress - 6-27-2012 at 02:08 PM

What sort of person is restrained from evil deeds only by fear of retribution in an afterlife? :biggrin:

life after death

captkw - 6-27-2012 at 02:13 PM

HOLA, I figure this way....."I have had to live before,,,there is no way I could become this stupid in one lifetime.alone" :lol:

but I have checked out NDE on the web and is rather interesting..see for yourself...NDE..............K & T

LancairDriver - 6-27-2012 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by shari

Quote:

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, etc. etc. couldn't have been too worried about afterlife retribution.

wessongroup - 6-27-2012 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Speaking of thinking .. do electron's have "free will" .. taking it down to another level, so to speak

Ever hear of this guy at U. of Oregon?

http://www.amitgoswami.org/

Yes and his movie is very interesting, a bit slow, but given the subject matter ... it is ok ..

Quantum Activist

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1397093/

Storyline
There is a revolution going on in science. A genuine paradigm shift. While mainstream science remains materialist, a substantial number of scientists are supporting and developing a paradigm based on the primacy of consciousness. Amit Goswami, Ph.D., a pioneer of this revolutionary new perspective within science, shares with us his vision of the unlimited potential of consciousness as the ground of all being, and how this revelation can actually help us to live better. The Quantum Activist tells the story of a man who challenges us to rethink our very notions of existence and reality, with a force and scope not felt since Einstein. This film bridges the gap between God and Science. The work of Goswami, with stunning precision and without straying from the rigors of quantum mechanics, reveals the overarching unity inherent in the worlds major religions and mystical traditions. Meet the man behind the message as Dr...

[Edited on 6-28-2012 by wessongroup]

Ateo - 6-27-2012 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, etc. etc. couldn't have been too worried about afterlife retribution.

Hitler was a Christian. I think he would've believed in an afterlife.

Hitler was, seemingly, not an atheist.

Hitler said in his famous book, Mein Kampf, that he was doing the work of God:

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

Pretty crazy..........

As for the other madmen, they're generally used in this argument to say that they were evil murderer, and atheists, so somehow their atheism must have something to do with them being an evil murderer.

This is an example of an association fallacy. If Pol Pot had a mustache, we wouldn't conclude that anyone with a mustache is like Pol Pot.

:tumble:

I'd say that these madmen didn't believe in afterlife retribution. They believed in while alive retribution. They were maniacs, torturers, and killers. All stuff we can agree on is bad for our fellow human beings. Just my opinion..........

[Edited on 6-28-2012 by ateo]

Skipjack Joe - 6-27-2012 at 05:59 PM

Stalin was actually a seminarian at one time. Hard to believe.

I'm not big into judging fallen political figures. The winning side always demonizes the losing side. If Germany had won the war then FDR and Churchill would have been anathema to the world.

It takes a long time, if ever, for the proper perspective to return. Julias Caesar was a harsh dictator but history has given him a pass. Even Genghis Khan is now being reinterpreted. Napoleon? A butcher that only the French loved at first. Now, he's mostly admired. Le Petite General.

Let's face it, doing the right thing can be tough:

[Edited on 6-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Ateo - 6-27-2012 at 09:18 PM

Skipjack,

Totally. Judging fallen political figures aint easy. Good or bad.

Its all past. Times we never lived in.

We have a new future.

It's right now.....and now....and now again!

Here's to mañana.

TONEART

captkw - 6-28-2012 at 12:11 AM

HOLA,you a a very wise man !! I know all that you speak is true...but folks from the the US belive that they are from the free and the best place on the planet..and thatb they get to vote and decide the laws...YA,BABY...keep watching that TV.. :lol:

toneart - 6-28-2012 at 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
HOLA,you a a very wise man !! I know all that you speak is true...but folks from the the US belive that they are from the free and the best place on the planet..and thatb they get to vote and decide the laws...YA,BABY...keep watching that TV.. :lol:

Thank you captkw! You are correct in what you say (following the compliment...aw shucks! :tumble:

). I have deleted my post that you have responded to because it is not Baja related. Another reason is, that parts of it could be considered inflammatory. I care about this board and do not wish to violate its rules or my personal standard of conduct.

Mexitron - 6-28-2012 at 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Stalin was actually a seminarian at one time. Hard to believe.

I'm not big into judging fallen political figures. The winning side always demonizes the losing side. If Germany had won the war then FDR and Churchill would have been anathema to the world.

It takes a long time, if ever, for the proper perspective to return. Julias Caesar was a harsh dictator but history has given him a pass. Even Genghis Khan is now being reinterpreted. Napoleon? A butcher that only the French loved at first. Now, he's mostly admired. Le Petite General.

Let's face it, doing the right thing can be tough:

[Edited on 6-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Borrowing a Joseph Campbell story:

Two birds in a tree, fast friends----one is eating the fruit of the tree and the other is watching the first one eat.

Those are our two perspectives in this world---one is eating the fruit, going to work, making judgements, going to war---in the field of action, so to speak. This is the perspective where we judge things as good or bad---Stalin was bad, etc. The other perspective is the one that watches all this and looks at the big picture---who knows what is good or bad really in the long run....this is where Jesus is talking about not judging others. It is interesting to see how Caesar et al are looked at with kinder eyes as time goes by.

BajaGringo - 6-28-2012 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Of all the things you wrote on religion and the afterlife on this thread, Ken, the most meaningful in an inner sense was the one you wrote about your deceased friend. And yet this was declared to be false. Well, why does falseness feel as though it's closer to reality than reality? Why doesn't truth feel as enriching as the lies?

Perhaps that explains why people aren't dropping their bibles and rushing to brain chemistry. So far it does little to quench the soul. It does so by conveniently denying that it exists. It doesn't even understand what religion provides. It spends all of it's energy on where religion erred. Past human attempts at understanding what is felt within is mocked with a series of logical explanations that are irrelevant to a search for inner truth.

I suppose that "feeling" goes to the core of what I believe to "be real" to me, deep down inside although I choose to pursue this path sans organized religion...

[Edited on 6-28-2012 by BajaGringo]

Skipjack Joe - 6-28-2012 at 08:50 AM

Watched Nova with interest last night. About our expanding universe. It turns out that space is no longer just space. 95% of our universe is occupied by "dark matter" and "dark energy". These can't be measured with our current instruments.

How does it relate to this discussion:

Nothingness has suddenly become Somethingness.

Ken Bondy - 6-29-2012 at 07:21 PM

On the subject of free will, here's an interesting little mind experiment (this is from "Incognito" by Eagleman). Imagine you are driving your car in the left lane of a one-way two-lane road and you want to change lanes over to the right lane. We've all done this hundreds of times. For those of you who want to play the game, describe in words precisely the physical process you would go through to accomplish the lane change. I predict that no-one who responds will get this right. When enough people have responded I will let the cat out of the bag.

[Edited on 6-30-2012 by Ken Bondy]

bajadogs - 6-29-2012 at 09:54 PM

Ah!!! Driving 101 - Signal. Check mirror. Look over the shoulder. GO when clear. Pull right hand down on wheel just enough for me and car get between cars in right hand lane without hurting anyone. Pull over at next taco shop.

What am I missing Ken?

Skipjack Joe - 6-30-2012 at 01:18 AM

I just pull hard left and trust the Lord.

Osprey - 6-30-2012 at 05:23 AM

When the traffic is all going the same direction, a one way road, I use the whole road -- there are no "lanes". The road is a lane.

Ken Bondy - 6-30-2012 at 06:49 AM

Loved and anticipated the comic responses to my driving question. But I'm still looking for at least one person who takes this seriously. I think you will be surprised at what is lurking here. There are no tricks. Just describe carefully the actions you would take in a simple lane change from the left lane to the adjacent right lane. No traffic, no tricks. Just tell me how you get from the left lane to the right lane.

Skipjack Joe - 6-30-2012 at 07:32 AM

I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.

Since you're trying to make a point about subconscious thought I thought about anything like that in the process. Usually I change lanes when a certain level of anxiety reaches me that I'm driving too slowly and making others angry. This is usually what triggers a lane change but I don't believe that this is what you're looking for.

I'm actually a poor driver. I stare blankly at the road and daydream. However, I am paying attention to the road but at a different level. I know this because I have an excellent driving record. At proper times I make the right decisions. It's weird but has worked for me all my life.

Ken Bondy - 6-30-2012 at 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.

Actually, bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand.

Eagleman's point (similar to Harris) is that there is an immense amount of information stored in the brain to which we have no access. Our brain knows how to make the lane change without thinking about it. It does it all the time. But if we think about it, as did bajadogs, we end up off the road.

comitan - 6-30-2012 at 08:13 AM

Make the decision first.

Barry A. - 6-30-2012 at 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.

Well, for me anyway, that is nuts (I have not followed, read, or listened to "Harris" or "Eagleman") -------I "think" about every lane change before I make it----------I take driving very seriously, and have never had a traffic accident that was in any way my fault. I have no idea why one would "end up off the road" if they made deliberate decisions to change from the left lane to the right.

Please explain.

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 6-30-2012 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.

I understand your point. It's like walking. We make a decision to walk yet every knee bend and forward stride is not individually thought out.

Interestingly enough this is still part of our voluntary muscle system. Non voluntary is heart beat and breathing.

Barry A. - 6-30-2012 at 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ridge

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand...

I have no idea why one would "end up off the road"...

Cuz he forgot the part about turning the wheel back to the left to re-align with the new lane.

Ah HA!!!

Thanks, Ridge.

Barry

Mexitron - 6-30-2012 at 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.

We're such good robots aren't we, complete with subroutines we don't need to be conscious of.

bufeo - 6-30-2012 at 09:12 AM

The direction this thread has turned reminds me of a writing assignment I required of my ninth-grade English students. Early in the term I asked them to write complete directions similar to Ken's lane-changing task: tying your shoes, setting a fence post, posting a letter, taking your dog for a walk, etc.

Then we read the results aloud in class. It was always a source of amusement to visualize a fence post 'covered' in dirt, shoes tied to each other, or, with some horror, a pet dog suspended from the hallway coat rack.

Allen R

Barry A. - 6-30-2012 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.

We're such good robots aren't we, complete with subroutines we don't need to be conscious of.

-----some more than others, apparently. Almost every time I have gotten into trouble it was because I trusted my sub-conscious to guide me thru--------I purposely don't do that much any more, but it does make things take much longer to do.

Barry

tripledigitken - 6-30-2012 at 09:53 AM

Ken,

We understand that the three steering inputs to get that lane change made is "automatic". I look at that phenomenon like "macros" in excel, you specify an action path and program that with only a single prompt to execute it.

(I won't even get into the inputs for that lane change on a motorcycle using counter-steering)

What's the linkage to lack of free will?

Ken

[Edited on 6-30-2012 by tripledigitken]

vgabndo - 6-30-2012 at 11:48 AM

The foregoing has prompted me to consider that in my men's work, we put a lot of credence on "intuition". I can fit intuition into a non-spiritual place where all of my genetic and "nurture" inputs are being normally scanned and acted upon (likely with a lot of free will) but in the absence of a lot of filtering. By filtering I mean the alteration of the way I am perceiving reality as a result of basic feelings of the moment. Like: fear, anger, altruism, etc.

If I could remain adequately calm and purposeful I feel I could access my "intuition" in a positive way and utilize to best advantage all of the moral philosophy and non-kneejerk "stuff" I have crammed into this brain.

I used to trust my intuition about where all the other cars were around me in traffic. My normal constant scanning of the mirrors kept a good semi-conscious picture in my mind. These days I double-check everything, including (especially) in the parking lot. I just ain't what I used to ..Oh, look, a butterfly. :lol:

Cypress - 6-30-2012 at 02:38 PM

My navel/belly button is absorbing undivided attention. :biggrin:

Ken Bondy - 6-30-2012 at 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?

Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++

[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Mexitron - 6-30-2012 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?

My truck is loaded with all kinds of subroutines but it still goes where I tell it to.....Baja!

Ken Bondy - 6-30-2012 at 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?

My truck is loaded with all kinds of subroutines but it still goes where I tell it to.....Baja!

You just think you are telling it to head for Baja Mexitron. It's doing it all by itself

tripledigitken - 7-1-2012 at 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?

Ken,

Our concepts of free will differ.

I decide to change lanes, free will, my body reacts to the command. During the lane change I detect a car in the way, free will, I adjust to avoid a collision.

The fact that my body, thru repetitive movements has learned the behavior, in no way discounts that I have free will.

One more example. I decide to try to drink Tecate in the can again. I bring the can to my mouth, take a sip, free will, still tastes like chit and I spit it out.

Ken

Ken Bondy - 7-1-2012 at 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?

Ken

Ken
I'm not sure I have a "concept" yet. I've read a lot about it and I am convinced that our brains make a lot of decisions for us, over which we have no control or even access. But it's tough to choke down the concept that I (whatever "I" is) didn't really decide to write this. It seems like there is some room in our biology for free will. But for me the jury is still out on this one.

Although I think your argument about Tecate in the can refutes, rather than supports, free will

. Just kidding,
++Ken++

Mexitron - 7-1-2012 at 07:08 AM

Don't know that the free will idea is an either/or situation---its likely a combination of fate and free will, metaphorically speaking. Both are true yet neither are true---this is the world of opposites after all.

Barry A. - 7-1-2012 at 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
Don't know that the free will idea is an either/or situation---its likely a combination of fate and free will, metaphorically speaking. Both are true yet neither are true---this is the world of opposites after all.

Lets see if I got this right------------we make concious decisions all the time, but there is vast input to those decisions by our brains learned experiences which is involuntary for the most part--------thus a combination of "free will" AND involuntary reactions (& "instinct"?) !?!?!?!?!?

Probably an over-simplification, but this makes sense to me.

Barry

Paula - 7-1-2012 at 07:38 AM

I like this thread. It gives me an opportunity to agree with Barry. :tumble:

Skipjack Joe - 7-1-2012 at 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Ken
I'm not sure I have a "concept" yet. I've read a lot about it and I am convinced that our brains make a lot of decisions for us, over which we have no control or even access. But it's tough to choke down the concept that I (whatever "I" is) didn't really decide to write this. It seems like there is some room in our biology for free will. But for me the jury is still out on this one.

After 35 pages we finally agree on something. I pretty much wrote the above 3 pages ago.

Free will only has meaning in reference to the instigator. It takes a subject and predicate to have a complete sentence. "I" must be understood at the physical level. And "I" is more than just the conscious world - there is still the matter of "soul".

Will have to disengage for a few days in order to test some of them oregon trout. They need to be educated in the ways of an elk hair caddis.

Ciao,
Igor

[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

tripledigitken - 7-1-2012 at 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Will have to disengage for a few days in order to test some of them oregon trout. They need to be educated in the ways of an elk hair caddis.

Ciao,
Igor

Have a great time Igor!

bufeo - 7-1-2012 at 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe...Will have to disengage for a few days in order to test some of them oregon trout. They need to be educated in the ways of an elk hair caddis.

Ciao,
Igor

Just got a call. Stonefly hatch AND green drakes on the Big Wood. Subliminal brain impulses over which I have no control are imploring me to heed the call. This time of year rods/reels/flies/waders live in the back of my truck in order to answer the siren call post-haste. I'm outta here.

Allen R

Ken Bondy - 7-1-2012 at 07:52 AM

Go whip those trout into shape Igor!! Have a great time. Alex going with you?

Skipjack Joe - 7-1-2012 at 08:16 AM

No. This is Alex's first summer working. He's learning the ways of the adult world. And it's a valuable lesson as far as I can see.

He was hired to work 20-25hrs a week, 4 hours a day. It's been a week now. He's worked 3 days. They call him whenever they need him and they send him home whenever they don't. Yesterday he worked 2 1/2 hours and doesn't know the next day he'll work.

Think of the first job you ever had and this will ring a bell. He's learning why an education is important in life. This is far better than me telling him that.

In the working world someone is in charge of you or you are in control of the matter. He's learning that.

Barry A. - 7-1-2012 at 08:17 AM

All this "fishing" talk sounds predatory to me, and probably instinctual from our hunter/gatherer days.

Poor innocent fishies!!! :spingrin:

--------and thanks, Paula-------we probably agree on more than we think. :light:

Barry

Mexitron - 7-1-2012 at 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

I'm thinking of fate in terms of, eh, decisions that were made (by you?) before you were a twinkle in your mother's eye. Sorry Barry---I woke up on the mystical side of bed today.
:lol:

Iflyfish - 7-1-2012 at 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?

Ken

. Just kidding,
++Ken++

Very interesting discussion indeed. I have a couple of centavos to toss into the mix.

It is clear to me that the brain is a regulatory organ. The brain LIMITS our sensory input so that we are not overwhelmed with stimuli and can thereby go about the purchasing of a Tecate. We are not overwhelmed with sound, light, sensation, memories, thoughts etc. as we are able to filter and limit them. We do this automatically. That is very fortunate because if you had to consciously beat your heart (though mine has been beaten up plenty of times by outside forces), stay stuck in memories of your heart getting beat up, had to be conscious of taking every breath at the same time as you consciously regulate your excretions i.e. perspiration, filtering of your blood alcohol, blinking to keep your eyes moist etc. you would not be able to "make choices" (read exercise free will). The frontal lobes are very important in this process of regulation and are essential to our sense of self consciousness. Self consciousness is the essential element of choice or free will as differentiate from reflexive, "autonomic", reptilian brain functions like those mentioned above. We have both self consciousness, which allows for conscious choice AND reptilian brain functions that regulate and control "unconscious" processes.
This is how I resolve this issue for myself when not overwhelmed by my "god spot" or when I am yelling "oh god" in a fit of passion, which overwhelms the more cognitive parts of my brain.
I reflexively spit the Tecate, I choose Buena Noche or XX Amber.

Iflyfish

Ken Bondy - 7-1-2012 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
After 35 pages we finally agree on something.

I am so sorry you feel that way, and it surprises me that you would say that amigo. I looked over the 35 pages and it seems to me that we agreed on many things. Your posts were intelligent and eloquent, and I enjoyed "bantering" with you (your word). We certainly disagreed on souls and afterlives, but unless I misread, we were pretty much on the same page with most of the other stuff. We both thought, for example, that paranewbi spoke in tongues, largely unintelligible and always circular. That's a big agreement!!!

Anyway have a great time with the trout!!

++Ken++

Cypress - 7-1-2012 at 12:57 PM

Tecate? My frontal lobes/reptilian brain/ taste buds tell me that there's better beer to be had. :lol:

paranewbi - 7-1-2012 at 03:18 PM

Hmm, tempting but boring.

comitan - 7-1-2012 at 04:20 PM

paranewbi

But its sunday!!!!!!

Iflyfish - 7-1-2012 at 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Tecate? My frontal lobes/reptilian brain/ taste buds tell me that there's better beer to be had. :lol:

Indeed, first rounds on me!

Iflyfish

Cypress - 7-2-2012 at 07:24 AM

:biggrin:

All these deep thoughts make me thirsty!

Ken Bondy - 7-2-2012 at 08:01 AM

All of a sudden I got this great urge for a Dos Equis. That must be my subconscious mind working, because I never order anything but a Pacifico.

Barry A. - 7-2-2012 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
All of a sudden I got this great urge for a Dos Equis. That must be my subconscious mind working, because I never order anything but a Pacifico.

----------or possibly divine inspiration????

Barry

Ken Bondy - 7-2-2012 at 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
All of a sudden I got this great urge for a Dos Equis. That must be my subconscious mind working, because I never order anything but a Pacifico.

----------or possibly divine inspiration????

Barry

Unlikely Barry. No evidence for divine inspiration, plenty of evidence for brain urges (farts???).

Iflyfish - 7-2-2012 at 01:25 PM

How about inspiration for the divine, a good cold Pacifico would hit the spot!

Iflyfish

Cypress - 7-2-2012 at 01:31 PM

Yes it would!

Barry A. - 7-2-2012 at 01:43 PM

Make mine a Negra Modelo and I am "in". :yes:

Barry

Cypress - 7-2-2012 at 01:46 PM

Barry A., Good choice!! :biggrin:

Ateo - 7-2-2012 at 02:58 PM

Now that we've settled once and for all the issue of "free will", maybe we can move onto evolution? :lol:

Ateo - 7-2-2012 at 03:01 PM

Richard Dawkins - Your 185 Millionth Great Grandfather Was A Fish......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbD6XzC9rqQ

Iflyfish - 7-2-2012 at 03:01 PM

What?!!! Evolve this conversation?! Some here do not believe in evolution of conversations.

Iflyfishwithanochebuenapacificoormodelonegroinhand!

Ken Bondy - 7-2-2012 at 03:41 PM

This conversation was created by Skeet!!! It did not evolve!!! I know this for a fact!!!

Barry A. - 7-2-2012 at 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
This conversation was created by Skeet!!! It did not evolve!!! I know this for a fact!!!

CHALLENGE CHALLENGE. I just went back and checked Skeeter's original post on this thread, and nothing of what he said can be construed as starting this discussion--------unless, and this is a big "unless"--------you came up with your own interpretation of where Skeeter is coming from (within this thread) or from "other" threads, which takes things out of context.

Now I will take another 'pull' out of my Negra Modello bottle-----------ahhhhhhh, bueno!!!!! Time to jump in the pool (next door). :lol:

Barry

Ken Bondy - 7-2-2012 at 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
This conversation was created by Skeet!!! It did not evolve!!! I know this for a fact!!!

Barry

OK I'm using "created" rather loosely. Picky picky.....

tripledigitken - 7-2-2012 at 04:53 PM

note to self:

If you want to get a point across, use a beer reference to get attention.

noted

:lol:

Cisco - 7-2-2012 at 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
This conversation was created by Skeet!!! It did not evolve!!! I know this for a fact!!!

Barry

With Skeet's profound appreciation of evolution as a natural process I can only think that he would be proud to have fathered this discussion.

Oh Barry, I quit drinking any Mexican beer when they stopped making my favorite Mexican ale, my ambrosia, my life... Tres Equis...about ten years ago.

wessongroup - 7-2-2012 at 05:16 PM

Say is it beer time yet ... :biggrin:

Ken Bondy - 7-2-2012 at 05:44 PM

Magnificent photo wessongroup!!!

vgabndo - 7-2-2012 at 05:46 PM

That is a great shot. About an inch from the front of National Geographic. (If the pony's face had been reflected!) Amazing.

Iflyfish - 7-2-2012 at 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
This conversation was created by Skeet!!! It did not evolve!!! I know this for a fact!!!

That's flat our funny!

Iflyfish :lol:

Ateo - 7-2-2012 at 08:16 PM

Wesson......great photo. The posts today made me laugh out loud!!!!!!!!!

wessongroup - 7-2-2012 at 08:45 PM

Mexitron - 7-6-2012 at 06:24 PM

So what happens when we're all enlightened with our begging bowls but everyone's begging and no one's growing food?

Cypress - 7-7-2012 at 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
So what happens when we're all enlightened with our begging bowls but everyone's begging and no one's growing food?

Hunger/starvation.

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