BajaNomad

El Carrizo Canyon(Sierra Juarez)

Geothermal-Shane - 5-14-2005 at 11:38 PM

Does anybody have infomation regarding a hot spring in the next canyon north from Guadalupe Canyon?
Rumor has it, "El Carrizo" shown in the Baja Almanac is a hot spring/palm oasis.

also...

Does anybody have information regarding a hot spring at Agua Caliente in Canada de la Parra/Canada Jamin in the
southeast Sierra Juarez? (also shown in the Baja Almanac)

Agua Caliente in the Sierra Juarez

David K - 5-15-2005 at 08:51 AM

Neal Johns and also Baja Nomad member 'bajataco' has been there... Here is the link to his 2000 trip photos... http://www.bajataco.com/Baja/bajamap.html it is a map of Baja with a clickable dot in various places. Click the dot(s) on the Sierra Juarez... the lowest one tells about the drive to Agua Caliente... Bajataco has photos of the oasis there, but on another page.

From his post on Nomad at: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=8971#pid66467



Also:





[Edited on 5-15-2005 by David K]

Geothermal-Shane - 5-15-2005 at 03:35 PM

Thanks alot David K, this is useful information.
My understanding is that this location is accessible from the El Mano grade-Laguna Salada road, by turning south at the junction
N 31.47.680' W115.36.650'
This looks and sounds like a very remote location...
I'll be heading to Guadalupe Canyon on June 15 and am hoping to explore some of the other canyons in the East Sierra Juarez, namely Palomar and the alleged El Carrizo for their remote hot springs. It would be nice to include the Agua Caliente pictured above, but June temperatures may sabotage morale once some 80 miles from the neareast paved road. But maybe we need some of that, so we'll see what happens.
Last June I had recently bought a 1988 Mitsubishi Montero(two door with 192,000 on the clock) and so for its christening we headed down into Laguna Salada in a fleeted attempt to find Palomar Canyon hot springs.
"Hot Springs and Hot Pools of the Southwest" got us into the ultimate boggle. After getting lost near Pozo Salada, we managed to find the main graded dirt road running N-S through the valley, and made the first major right turn south of the Guadalupe Canyon road. We drove south some 10 miles to a narrow junction with an A-shaped pickett. From there we followed the junction road about a mile to a fully stocked ranch that was currently unoccupied, then down into a very sandy wash past a lone palm tree* and up into a boulder field briefly before popping our first tire. Considering that it was 110 degrees, we took a minute to calm down. Neither one of us had ever even changed a tire! All proved a valuable learning experienced when we jacked up the small jeep, only to see the jack sink in the deep sand. We instead dug out from under the tire whilst the jack provided a mere inch of clearance and made the swap quickly.
Throroughly wigged out, we decided to abandon our exploration and retreat to Guadalupe with out a spare. Two days later, en route from Guadalupe to Mexicali, we popped another tire on the washboard 11 miles south of Hwy 2. Now the situation could be fully appreciated! We sat in the jail cell of our jeep's shade waiting for the sun to drop over the Sierra Juarez, and not a car passed. It felt like our metabolisms had stopped. Furthermore, our dwindling water supply of less than two gallons was already above 100 degrees and all of our ice and dry ice had long since melted. Desperate? The possibility of walking out to the hiway was not an option, but La Ponderosa was, as we had passed it about twenty minutes before the second flat. Once the sun was down, we walked back south in the eerie twilight warmth, finally- a Ford Bronco! It was a local who dropped us off at La Ponderosa, but could offer no more help. Now we were at the mercy of an old leather-faced rancher. Here's where Japanese cars don't pay off in Baja- all his tires were mounted on rims with five bolts(ours six).
We figured on walking back to our car, then walking our flat tire back to the ranch and then swaping rims. The walk back to the jeep was long, dark and hot, but culminated in the passing of another car- a brand new Montero-load full of San Diegans eager to help us. But the swap was just not possible by hand. They left us back at the jeep and said they'd come back for us in the morning. Then we'd go into Mexicali for a spare.
Next morning, no sign of anybody and even worse no shade anywhere, except under some vicious Sonoran thorn bush. Then of all things a swarm of wild bees discovered us and our gallon of water. My Guatemalan girlfriend was stung. Now we were really desperate. After a few more bruised baking hours a rattly Tacoma came down the road- a gay couple from San Diego who took us to the nearest llantera and that was that.
Upon the first sighting of an Oxxo it was like we had never seen ice before, and cold Tecate? It was like holy water!

sorry, didn't mean to ramble...thanks again

PS after that we went to Puertecitos and then Valle Chico for more grueling adventures in the sweltering heat, but never popped a tire the rest of trip.

[Edited on 5-15-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

[Edited on 5-15-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

[Edited on 5-15-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

David K - 5-15-2005 at 06:14 PM

Awesome trip report Shane! THIS is what makes Baja Nomad awesome as a source for Baja travel and exploration information... Thank YOU!

Welcome to Baja Nomad... Please keep writing about your trips...

Next time, use the dry lake road instead of the washboard road between Hwy. 2 and Guadalupe Canyon. Going north, the junction is marked by a sign that says 'Mexicali'. It reaches Mex. 2 about 2 1/2 miles east of the graded road's junction... Signed 'Laguna Salada' on Mex. 2.

OH, you might enjoy my web page on the Valle Chico/San Pedro Martir canyons... including the 'other' Agua Caliente hot springs: http://VIVABAJA.COM/404




[Edited on 5-16-2005 by David K]

Geothermal-Shane - 5-16-2005 at 01:59 AM

Actually, on that particular trip I did take the dry lake road on the drive in, but for some reason opted for the washboard on the way out. I remember on the way accross the lake we hit an unexpected washout at 55mph- I had ten gallons of gas rigged to a surfboard roof rack that went flying apart. One of the jerries came through the driver's window and slammed into my shoulder, good thing the window was open, though, or I may have gotten a face full of glass. After those few days, I ultimately grew accustomed to a slower pace of Baja travel...
Before leaving on this trip I searched the internet for information regarding Agua Caliente in Valle Chico, and discovered VIVA BAJA. It was then that I realized the vast possibilities in Valle Chico, which before was no more significant than an undeveloped hot spring in "some canyon" according to Hot Springs and Hot Pools of the Southwest. I printed out a copy of the Valle Chico map. A few weeks later I found myself turning west at the Dos Equis crocodile outside San Felipe. I had originally planned to make the trip into the valley with another vehicle, but it turned out the driver was apprehended before leaving Temple City and held for 72 hours- for possesing a baton(?). His truck was fully loaded with camping gear and he was getting on the 10 West headed for San Felipe. We decided to head out alone after waiting the agreed wait-period for this no show. The drive into Valle Chico grew intense, bearing in our minds what had happened in Laguna Salada, and no amount of Tecate could relieve the situation. Thanks to the David K map we didn't get lost, but we did bottom out on our front skid plate numerous times heading up the road into Agua Caliente canyon. Many large boulders. Eventually we stopped at the base of a particularly nasty pitch where there was a place to turn around and made camp ahi. The temperature was still about 110, so we waited for partial shade in the canyon before continuing up, at about 6:30 pm. We hiked maybe a mile and a half further into the canyon to where there was no longer a road and then another mile or so through some very confusing terrain to a small hot waterfall that jetted out of the brush into some algaeic muck and then back into the brush. Although we wanted to find the source we were more concerned with finding our way back down to the end of the road with our cheap flashlights. It was starting to get dark, so our stay was brief. Before entering the valley we had visited the Puertecitos hot tide pools and I badly injured my feet on the sharp rocks, and so took this brief moment in that big endless canyon to heal my wounds in the scalding water. It was bearable for a while, actually quite soothing and numbing. The little waterfall was about 115 degrees. I understand the source to be 144.
The hike back down probably speaks for itself. The blackened Baja night sky speckled with the usual stars. Once again the eerie night warmth gripped us dressed in t-shirt, shorts and sombrero. Sweating down the canyon from one thornbush to the next, then wandering a few thornbushes too far and backtracking. I think I remember seeing my tracks from the hike up in a few sandy spots, but the rest was just a matter of "well, which thornbush to go plunging into now?" It was really a maze! Surrounded in all that big darkness with clawing gigantic thorn-beasts grappling us at every step, looming up high as endless as the canyon walls above...and the great endless dark hole our backs are turned to leading god knows where...
By the time we got back to San Felipe we were thoroughly scathed with the indelable brand of Agua Caliente canyon.
We had hoped to go to Matomi, but opted to find a good hot spring to heal the cuts and scratches, and eventually ended up at "Russian Valley" in another Agua Caliente canyon outside Valle Guadalupe, where the cows kept us company all day and all night. Here a shallow pool provided a whiplash strength soak at 109 degrees in the morning/evening to 111 and hotter in the daytime.

I hope to make it to Matomi and perhaps Parral and even Agua Caliente again this June, if everyithing goes well in Laguna Salada/Sierra Juarez.

The Mitsubishi has been replaced by a 1983 Toyota Land Cruiser(FJ60) that wants to go to Baja badly.

Neal Johns - 5-16-2005 at 11:30 AM

Where you got your first flat is one canyon north of Palomar. For a few years there was a scarecrow at the driveway entrance and a Keep Out sign in English/Spanish. Not sure of the real name, I call it Lone Palm Canyon.:D There are some minor petros up canyon past the driveable part.

Entering Palomar Canyon, a half mile or so past the palm log corral the road splits, take the left fork (the right fork goes into the very rocky stream bed for a while and joins the other). In a few miles you will come to a palm grove with a house (Rancho Palomar - usually deserted) in it. The cold spring there makes the main track very mucky. Careful! Continue past the house until the road ends in about a mile and a half. Over the edge is a concreted empty pool. The hot spring is a couple of hundred feet upstream on the right bank with two concrete pools probable full of palm fronds and muck.

The junction at N 31.47.680' W115.36.650' is hard to see. I recommend continuing south from the El Mano turnoff and then west as follows:

0 Start at main road right (west) to Canyon Guadalupe Hot Springs at intersection with washboard road to Hwy. 2.

6 Turn left, east. (right (straight) goes to Canyon Isabel and Palomar), very scenic.

8+ "T" turn right toward deserted Ejido Guardines de la Patria.

9.8. Pass Ejido Guardines de la Patria.

XX Ignore any roads left or right.

24.2 Ignore road right (to Canyons Isabel and Palomar).

25.4 Cajabuzo Junction-continue south (road east across large wash goes to Hwy 5).

28.3 Ignore road coming in over right shoulder (from Canyon Isabel).
Continue south, follow your nose to next checkpoint at 34.2, keep left if in doubt. Just don't get sucked off right, east, to Canyon El Mano. If you want to go to El Mano, shortly before Mile 34.2 that road starts west on the south side of a small butte just after crossing a wash. After the El Mano road turns right, west, there is a fence on the right side of road.

34.2 Cross opening in fence line (Major ?Am I Lost?? checkpoint). Continue south, a hair left, and in about 0.4 miles, climb up onto 10 foot mesa, and follow hard surface two-track south. If you miss the road onto the mesa, it is probably to your left. (Don?t ask me how I know).

38.8 Stop! Campo la Victoria intersection ? 31 deg 45.6 min, 115 deg 33.5 min. ClV is an old mining camp/foundation east five or six miles across several washes. You will not go there.

Look to the right and slightly ahead toward the west side of the valley and note a major canyon a couple of miles away. That is your objective (Canada la Parra). Take the road south/a little west toward it that starts about a hundred feet north before the main road angles down, left, off of "mesa" to go east across washes five or six miles to Campo la Victoria (where you don't want to go right now).

~41 Ignore road left that goes to bottom of El Mano.

~41+ Enter Canada la Parra and continue up it. Ignore tracks that bear left across wash (they go south along edge of mountains to Canon el Alamito).

~42+ Cross over a mini-summit (31 deg. 42.48 min. ? 115 deg. 35.41 min.) and pass La Palmita palm grove and Rancho (occupied), continue up canyon, passing through a fence (close gate if found closed).

XX A mile past fence wash bears right, take it, tracks may be washed out.
Do not take tracks that bail out over left bank of wash, they go to a Pai Pai rancho that does not want visitors! Email me: aridneal atearthlink.net for gory details.

XX Another mile and you come to a palm grove on the left with a water trough and pipelines (31 deg. 40.66 min. - 115 deg. 36.82 min.) The road goes into and through the middle of the palm grove and many grinding slicks are on the nearby boulders. Continue and the road crosses the arroyo and climbed up a hill on the right side. Palms are visible in the distance; descend down a bad hill and you are there!
A large flat area with a green meadow fed by the overflow from a pond, a bunch of palm trees, and two or three old adobes. (31 deg, 40.32 min. - 115 deg. 38.66 min.)

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Neal Johns]

Geothermal-Shane - 5-16-2005 at 07:04 PM

Thanks alot, Neal. I think I'm on the right track to El Palomar now. Does the cold spring there flow year-round?

also...

Does this route to Agua Caliente correspond to the road shwon heading south from the El Mano grade-Laguna Salada road(shown in the Baja Alamanac) or is it a deviation part of or most of the way?
The Almanac shows another dotted trail which spurs southwest from the El Mano road and then veres southeast to the "Agua Caliente road". Is this of any significance to your directions?

It seems this junction is the most confusing to navigate, I take it there are more roads here than shown in the Baja almanac.
Up to this junction is clear and the last few miles before the palm grove and Pai pai village seem to be as well.

Regarding CARRIZO Canyon...

David K - 5-16-2005 at 09:04 PM

In my web site (VivaBaja.com), in the Contributed Photos section (bottom of home page) is a link to 'jide's' Sierra Juarez Canyon photos... His hike into Carrizo photos begin on Page 4 (after the Tajo canyon pics)... Here's the link: http://www.vivabaja.com/jide/page4.html

And here is one of the photos at the Carrizo oasis...

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 08:01 AM

The cold spring at Rancho Palomar must flow (no real pool) all year around as the large grove of palms must have there feet in water to survive.

The road south from Mile 34.2 is not on the Baja Almanac and starts at approximately 30 deg 50 min where the road on the Almanac for El Mano starts west. To put it on the map, draw a line straight south from the above point to the location of Mile 38.8 (31 deg 45.6 min, 115 deg 33.5 min), then draw a line mostly south - a little west - from there to join Canada la Parra a few tenths from where the road from the bottom of El Mano is shown joining la Parra on the Almanac. From shortly before Mile 34.2, to Mile 41, you are on roads not shown on the Almanac. It's a shortcut!

No dotted line roads are used or significant.
Minor corrections will be made in a few minutes to the original.

Info not applicable to Agua Caliente route:
At Mile 38.8, if you bear left, down, off the few feet high "mesa", heading east toward Campo Victoria, in 0.85 miles there is a faint road right going to the edge of the mountains just south of la Parra where the road continues south (there is a crossover road north to la Parra also) several miles to Arroyo El Alamito (the bottom of El Alamito is not shown well on the Almanac), at 1.55 miles you cross sand wash Arroyo El Alamito which frequently has tracks in it, at 2.44 miles you cross Arroyo de Enmedio. Campo la Victoria is at about Mile 5 or 6 and consists of concrete foundations with Campo la Victoria scratched in them.

David K - 5-17-2005 at 08:04 AM

Neal, draw us a map (please)!:o

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 08:29 AM

And take all the fun of getting lost out? Never!
Shane, don't forget to email me as requested above.

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 09:09 AM

OK, OK!
The miles noted on these maps are from Hwy. 2 and are different from the original directions. Ignore.

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 09:13 AM

Second map:

Geothermal-Shane - 5-17-2005 at 04:40 PM

Thanks alot, Neal! I'll see what I'm getting myself into when I wander down there. This map of yours will be a crucial tool for maintaining sanity- hopefully I can make it there in June, when temperatures can make sanity questionalble, especially in this kind of remote place.
Do you recall if there was a lot of deep sand the last two miles up the wash before Agua Caliente, or at any other part of the route?
(and how much of the route was negotiated with 4 wheel drive engaged?)
also...

Which route would you suggest I take to Agua Caliente coming from El Palomar?

Thanks alot!!!!!

Geothermal-Shane - 5-17-2005 at 04:42 PM

oh, thanks David K for the Carrizo photo and link!

Bruce R Leech - 5-17-2005 at 05:13 PM

wow who says you cant get good info on this forum. nice job on the maps and directions David and Neal Johns and others

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 10:44 PM

From Palomar:
Take the dotted line roads (very good roads in this case) to the solid road that goes to Mile 24.2 in log above which is 1.2 miles above CJ (Cajabuzo Junction) , then follow log above.
Do not take the more logical looking road down right from near the lodge as it is very tediously bumpy.

I think the only place I used 4wd was the last half mile of rutted rocky road. However - the entire la Parra wash is soft sand. I was there in moderate temperatures when the sand holds more moisture. In June, the moisture will be gone and so will the traction - makes an unbelieveable difference. Try 20 pounds tire pressure.

You would be very foolish to go into this very isolated area with only one vehicle anytime, especially in June. There are no old, bold, desert rats that tried to live without water.

Where is that email?aridneal atearthlink.net

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 11:08 PM

Desert Explorers (4WD section of the Barstow Mojave River Valley Museum) at Agua Caliente (31 deg, 40.32 min. - 115 deg. 38.66 min.)

http://desertexplorers.org

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 11:20 PM

I thought it was a pretty good joke posting all that stuff above just like I was a expert!
Here is the real sordid truth about the famous Aridologist Richard Neal Johns:

http://desertexplorers.org/tr-03NealsRescue/SizeCounts.htm
http://desertexplorers.org/tr-03NealsRescue/RescueMission.ht...
http://desertexplorers.org/tr-03NealsRescue/SearchRescueJohn...
http://desertexplorers.org/tr-03NealsRescue/TheTruth.htm
http://desertexplorers.org/tr-03NealsRescue/DearEditor.htm

Geothermal-Shane - 5-17-2005 at 11:29 PM

email on its way...

I'll be accompanied by a big 2wd Dodge Ram for this trip, which is partly why I'm concerned about the need for 4X4. I don't know how this vehicle will fair in such conditions...nor do I want to have to pull this big lug out of some treacherous sand. What are your thoughts on this factor?

If we make it in there to Agua Caliente it will between June 16 and 20. The plan seems to be as follows-
first go to Guadalupe Canyon, with an El Carrizo day trip
then Palomar Canyon,
then possibly Agua Caliente,
and then to Highway 5 via Cabajuzo Jct. which seems to be the preferred route as opposed to the one shown in the Baja Almanac. (????)
I estimate this should all take between 4 and 5 days. This may mean settling for warm water the last few days when the ice has all melted and gone above 90 degrees. I plan on carrying 25 gallons of water and ten gallons of gas, along with two weeks worth of food. (and beer...ha ha) Two spare tires this time. I've got a good water filter if necessary. If it comes down to tying bags around bushes, then mercy...
I don't expect to see many other travelers... although last year at the same time I saw five different carloads of Americans within two days. That was on the graded dirt road from Highway 5 to Guadalupe Canyon, however. It seems that most of the locals don't drive cars, and can offer little help if you get herranged.

"It's just you and the lord."
-Bobby Bradford, jazz music teacher

Neal Johns - 5-17-2005 at 11:58 PM

I don't think a two wheel vehicle will make it to Agua Caliente in June. Rancho Palomar should be OK, maybe with a little help.

Yes, the route east from CJ is the way to go. I have never been able to find the complete route shown on the AAA and Almanac! You 2wheel friend will have to be towed up the far steep/soft bank of the arroyo you immediately cross after leaving CJ. There is also some soft sand seveal miles later near the edge of Laguna Salada. It is level so if he has big tires aired down he will probably make it.

You u]might see some cars on the way to Guadalupe but not afterwards.

The only water in June is at Guadalupe, a rancho just south of the lodge if anyone is there, Palmita, the Pai Pai rancho and Agua Caliente. And at Rancho Lone Palm Canyon if anyone is there.

David K - 5-18-2005 at 08:25 AM

Your friend needs to drop his tires' air pressure for soft sand... it works... keep up the momentum as well.

Geothermal-Shane - 5-18-2005 at 08:33 PM

Hmmmm, good to stop and consider...
I wonder how my '83 Land Cruiser will act if it has to pull this big Dodge Ram a few miles through soft sand or up over a boulder field...and if my tow rope will sustain such work...his truck is big, with a V8, and I fear that big engine will just dig itself in real deep through the sand- the tires are stock, I think 85R16's. That truck might be too big...(???????)
Airing down our tires is of course a must, but I worry it won't be enough, at least for the Ram. And I also am unsure of what effect the extra weight he may be carrying will have on driving conditions in the sand. Momentum!!!!
Well, nontheless if we make it to El Palomar I'll be satisfied, perhaps save Agua Caliente for another day when more a more appropriate vehicle is along for the ride. But temptation...temptation...ah why go gettin this poor Ram stuck in the sand successively? Could be worth it though...won't really be sure unitil that vicious sun is beating on our backs mercilessly, then everybody along for the drive is going to wonder what the hell we're doing down in this rancid inferno...it'll proabably be between 105 and 110 degrees. No time or place to be stuck for too long...I think we'll all become fully converted members of some faith or other once down there, up against such weather. Odds against us stacked up higher than the Sierra Juarez watching above...
Thanks again friends...the advice is well heeded. More is appreciated...and needed!(seeing as how I might be crazy enough to go down in there still, a least to El Palomar and out Cabajuzo Jct to the highway, but may suffer from a case of "110 degree chicken-out".)

Neal Johns - 5-18-2005 at 09:03 PM

If either of you get really, really, stuck in the sand, 10-15 pounds pressure works wonders. Truck Air is a good cheap compressor ~$40 to air back up if you go that low.

bajalou - 5-18-2005 at 09:53 PM

You can put some wider 75r16 tires on it and end up with the same height. I changed 235-85 r 16's for 265-75 r 16 and gained about a inch in width right now. Then air down to 10-15 and you should be able to get thru most.

:biggrin:

Safety first

Sharksbaja - 5-18-2005 at 11:43 PM

I am one of those crazy types that WILL take backroads alone(with the dog). Being a past mechanic with a lot of off road experience I take along enough tools, jacks etc. to cover some serious scenarios. I eventually though got tired of repairing enroute my 68 Dodge Power Wagon(one of the first Baja Big-foots)and bought a new truck. Although I haven't been broken down YET, I have had some scary encounters with sand, big rocks and deceiving salt flats. I also have a Sat phone and keep it fully charged with a set of important phone numbers. Always be ready to stay a week if you become stranded.



Methinks YOU need a better emergency escape plan. If you and your buddy get stuck in the wrong place you may need a sat phone yourself. I have been stuck in the middle of nowhere just to have everyone else coming to the rescue get stuck themselves (Mallirrimo) I was finally able to air down enough to get my tires on some plywood strips we brought. We used the winch and a sand anchor to eventually free the rest the same way. Be as prepared as possible. A good thread:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=9718#pid73288

Geothermal-Shane - 5-19-2005 at 04:47 PM

Thanks, sharksbaja...

Well, I think we'd turn back before getting in sand too deep, but that's what they all say! Then end up getting stuck turning around.
What kind of engine-strain(4.2 liter straight-6, 4X4) are we looking at in regards to towing???
Oh, got a good Inter-Dynamics air compressor.

Thanks for the email, Neal...that explains all the empty cocaine barrels out on Laguna Salada(just kidding)...and how far from Agua Caliente do you think a 2wd will make it? Is hiking in or shuttling possible?
Although I don't plan on it, does leaving that are via El Mano grade seem possible, or does this offer challenges beyond the scope of a 2wd? Provided we can reach El Palomar, its either El Mano, Cabajuzo, or turn back to Mexicali and come down Highway 5 the long way to get to San Felipe.

Also, for David K(or anyone else), on Valle Chico-
How do you think a 2wd vehicle of the above posted specifications would fair en route to Matomi? I've only been as far as Ejido Agua Caliente. Is the road much the same from there south to Matomi? En route to Agua Caliente, coming from El Dorado ranch, I only used 4X4 at the dunes near Morelia/Huatamote wash and in Agua Caliente Canyon on the rocks and boulders, but I think a 2wd could make it. As far as Matomi, Parral and the road south of Ej. Agua Caliente, I don't know.
Also, might it be better for a 2wd to avoid the dunes(East Valley rd.) and take the West Valley road coming from the south end of Laguna Diablo? I have never traversed this route either.
I'm planning to get in this area in June, too.
And...
How gruesome is the trek down Arroyo Matomi through Puerto el Parral to Puertecitos? Hoping to drive it someday, although probably not in June.

Thanks everybody.

David K - 5-19-2005 at 05:21 PM

Shane, I will give you a detailed answer tomorrow... leaving for Baja dinner now...

Geothermal-Shane - 5-19-2005 at 05:51 PM

Right-o DavidK , enjoy, thanks!

Neal Johns - 5-19-2005 at 10:34 PM

Shuttling in to Agua Caliente would be easy to do if the two wheeler can't make it up wash in the sand (can you get him to buy some bigger, used tires for the rear?).

The problem with El Mano is at the bottom. The approach is over steep medium sized hills with 6" - 8' rocky steps. With no low range, I guess you could charge up, but I would now want to own the truck afterwards.:lol:

Geothermal-Shane - 5-19-2005 at 11:21 PM

Well, maybe we'll do the shuttle and just make Agua Caliente a day trip with camp set somewhere else, if we decide to keep heading south from El Palomar. Or perhaps set up camp at the shuttle point. Would you say the junction of La Parra wash and the road to Rancho Pai Pai is about as far as a 2wd could go?
As fas as getting out to San Felipe, it sounds like the El Mano derby is out the question for the Ram driver(Although he has been known to charge significant obstacles in the San Gabriel Mountains) Cabajuzo may be a possibilty. Ram driver's looking into a winch, also considering the "dune-buggy" approach with big rear tires on a 2wd, and will be carrying a set of plyboards. I've never pulled anything with my truck, but I've heard it can be done. I've also heard it can cause problems, at least on smaller engined vehicles. But desperation will probably put considerations aside, when the only other option is driving into Mexicali for a tow truck that may not even want to go all the way out there.
What kind of tow rope is advisable for pulling about 3000lbs with a tow hook? (Not a tow hitch)

Neal Johns - 5-20-2005 at 12:08 AM

"Would you say the junction of La Parra wash and the road to Rancho Pai Pai is about as far as a 2wd could go?"

Probably so in June/July unless you put big tires on the rear and going like hell. Going back downhill will not be a problem.


Tow Strap: A 25 - 30 foot, three inch strap (about 20,000 - 30,000 lb. rating) with loops, not hooks on the ends.

Towing (in low range) should not be a problem with your vehicle. The worst that would happen is vapor lock, a real possibility in the heat.

Putting big rear tires on the 2-wheeler and airing them down to 15 pounds will work wonders on sand and rocks.

bajalou - 5-20-2005 at 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geothermal-Shane



Also, for David K(or anyone else), on Valle Chico-
How do you think a 2wd vehicle of the above posted specifications would fair en route to Matomi? I've only been as far as Ejido Agua Caliente. Is the road much the same from there south to Matomi? En route to Agua Caliente, coming from El Dorado ranch, I only used 4X4 at the dunes near Morelia/Huatamote wash and in Agua Caliente Canyon on the rocks and boulders, but I think a 2wd could make it. As far as Matomi, Parral and the road south of Ej. Agua Caliente, I don't know.
Also, might it be better for a 2wd to avoid the dunes(East Valley rd.) and take the West Valley road coming from the south end of Laguna Diablo? I have never traversed this route either.
I'm planning to get in this area in June, too.
And...
How gruesome is the trek down Arroyo Matomi through Puerto el Parral to Puertecitos? Hoping to drive it someday, although probably not in June.

Thanks everybody.


You should not have trouble with East Valley road all the way past Agua Caliente Cn and on to where you drop out of Valle Chico into the Matomi. It was chewed up with the Baja 250 in March but with wider tires and a little soft, 2 WD should get thru without problems. Going up stream to Matomi ranch is over rocky ground most of the way and the sand is below, where you're heading thru the gorge and on to Mex 5. But have the widest tires you can put on.

We go into Valle Chico 2-3 times a month during the winter thru Apr. and the whoops from the races is by far the worst that you will face.

:biggrin:

David K - 5-20-2005 at 07:22 AM

OK... (great dinner last night, see other post)...

The East Valley Road has no sand dunes to negotiate, so don't know where that fear is from... From Hwy. 5 (signed Saltito or Morelia, a mile south of the Rockadile billboard now) all the way to Plan Nacional Agrario ('Ejido Agua Caliente') and beyond is fast, smooth, graded road with a short rocky exception between the Algodones road and Linda Vista (use parallel tracks along side graded road).

From the Canada el Parral (Azufre Wash) jcn. south to Matomi Canyon is unimproved road, with a high crown and dust (from off road racers), then you have a steep drop down to the bottom of Arroyo Matomi (4WD to get back up may be nice, but not mandatory).

Going the 5.2 miles UP the canyon to Rancho Matomi and the swimming pool oasis is a good 4WD road (2WD high clearance + good driver: OK).

Going the 29 miles DOWN Matomi Wash to Hwy. 5 I can only recommend for 4WD or buggies as it is thick arroyo sand. With lowered pressure and momentum you probably could do it in a 2WD, but why punish the rig or yourself. IT IS BEAUTIFUL, however.

Photos at http://vivabaja.com/204 (near the end).

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 04:11 PM

Thanks Neal, bajalou & David K...

Maybe these dunes are temporary. When I drove down East Valley road in June 2004, they were there allright. They weren't large dunes, but it was more sand than in a wash and the sand was piled up about 5-10 feet high in a series of burms, in between Huatamote wash and the big cattle ranch on the north side of the road(Morelia?). I think these "dunes" ended just west of the cattle ranch and I recall this stretch lasting about a mile.
I read somewhere else that a pair from Oakland had driven through Valle Chico in a 2wd Prerunner, and reported driving through some small dunes on the East Valley road. I think you(David K) responded with the same perplexed answer, confused as to the whereabouts of these alleged dunes. Must have been the temporary settling of a huge dust storm.
Well, I'm planning to visit Agua Caliente, El Parral and Matomi canyons on the Valle Chico portion of this trip. Then just go back out East Valley rd. to San Felipe, save lower Arroyo Matomi for more forgiving conditions with an appropriate vehicle along for the trip.

Hey David K, have you seen the concrete tub in Agua Caliente Canyon(Valle Chico)? It's down canyon from the hot spring maybe a half mile, and all overgrown with algae and full of muck. There was cool water in it when I was there last June, but it was by no means soakable. I was unsure if the water was the cooled runoff from the hot spring of the diverted flow of the cold stream.
Do you know of any attempts to build a permanent soaking pool here? On the website(Exotic canyons with Jide, 4-04), it shows a tub that was "much too hot", and I recognized the picture. Yes, that tub is much too hot, and if fact when I was there it had a big chunk of cattle dung floating in it, too. Says on the page that [you] dug another one downstream amongst the cooler water. Think it's still there?
Of, course the thought of a permaneet pool here along with all the tourists it may attract is a tragic thought. Maybe the geographical layout of the canyon won't permit a permanent concrete pool, though. Or maybe no one has been crazy enough to haul all the concrete up canyon through the thornbushes. Only made it far as the muck-pool and pooped out.

"Let's just build it here, I don't wanna carry this crap the rest of the way up." That's why you need burros, and leauges of machete-men!

Pool or not, its a great hot spring!
According to maps, that canyon leads back some 15-20 miles into the higher reaches of Sierra San Pedro Martir, up to some 7000 ft. I have to wonder what's hidden up there. Maybe a few waterfalls...or even a few more geothermal seeps.

Thanks again friends!

[Edited on 5-20-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

[Edited on 5-20-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 04:17 PM

Oh, Neal-
the La Parra/Pai Pai junction appears to be about 4 miles from Agua Caliente. Sound right?

(Ps- I urged my buddy to try a pair of big used tires in the rear, so we'll see- the truck's got good ground clearance, too.)

bajalou - 5-20-2005 at 04:51 PM

Ok - I know the dunes you refer to. on the road heading mostly E-W past the ranch and the pipe where water trucks used to load up.

The block cistern in the mouth of the canyon is for water for cattle and on to the small Agua Caliente comunity. It is often warm from the pipes being in the sun. They put cloth over the exposed pipes to retard the degradation of the pipe from the sun. They should be building a large steel tank somewhere near the mouth of the canyon similar to the on in Canon Cajon. Mex government paying for these pilas for the ranchers.

A hundred years ago, there was a trail up over the Sierra to the west side acording to maps of the time. It's pretty doubtful if you could make it over there now even with mules - too much of the owd trail washed out. A local friend tells of taking mules up Canon Cajon to the top years ago (a 2 day trip each way) but says that trail is washed out now and no way to do it today.

:biggrin:

David K - 5-20-2005 at 06:39 PM

Shane, Jide dug a shallow pool in the arroyo and dug a trench from the hot stream over to it... between the 'too hot' tub at the foot of the hot spring and the long rocks with the quartz veins. I found a place in the hot stream at the long rocks that was finally cooled enough to bathe in. http://vivabaja.com/404

In this photo from my web page (404) the hot spring is on the bench to the left and flows down the bank to the arroyo floor and turns downstream (away from my position). The rock lined hot tub is right at this turn (see it right there in front of where I took the photo). The hot stream flows downstream and eventually joins with the cold mountain stream which is off to the right in this photo. Jide's hand dug tub is just beyond the reeds in this photo...




[Edited on 5-21-2005 by David K]

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:23 PM

When I was there it was getting dark and there wasn't an opportunity to follow the hot stream through th reeds. I'll have to look for that next time. How about the concrete tub?

David K - 5-20-2005 at 07:27 PM

Never saw a concrete tub... where was it in relation to the photo...?

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:28 PM

Bajalou-
yes it's on the E-W part of the road, not too far before the junction with the road heading south to Agua Caliente/Matomi. Are those dunes always there?

and...

Is there a name for that big cattle ranch?(Brahma Bull Ranch?)

[Edited on 5-21-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

concrete tub

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:38 PM

If you headed back down the canyon about a half a mile. It was under alot of trees, and overgrown with algae and stuff. As I recall it was in the center of the canyon, lower down where the canyon is a bit wider.

[Edited on 5-21-2005 by Geothermal-Shane]

Neal Johns - 5-20-2005 at 07:40 PM

Shane, four miles sounds about right.

David K - 5-20-2005 at 07:41 PM

So, a ways past the bend, near the old pot farm area?

Never saw it... Got a GPS of it?



[Edited on 5-21-2005 by David K]

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:43 PM

Well, Neal, we may give it shot, provided that Guadalupe and Palomar canyons don't git us! If so, we'll make camp at the junction and drive the last four miles in my truck.

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:44 PM

No, David, didn't have GPS on that trip. Is the pot farm the area in the trees, kind of up on a bank above the wash, with all the scraps of corroded plastic pipe strewn about?

David K - 5-20-2005 at 07:46 PM

Yes, see the aerial photo... it was being readied to plant 'cilantro' in Dec. 2001...

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:51 PM

I'm pretty sure it was before the farm. It was about a three person tub.
It was pretty well hidden and overgrown, so probably easily overlooked. I suppose it was intended to be a cold pool.

Geothermal-Shane - 5-20-2005 at 07:55 PM

Ever noticed the big wide gauge pipe running all the way down the canyon?
Leaks in a few spots on the road...