BajaNomad

Vicente Fox's Comment about Blacks

Ken Cooke - 5-16-2005 at 04:32 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/mexico_fox_blacks

Coming from a Black man, I don't feel offended by what Vicente Fox said in his speech. My Grandfather pushed a broom at the Eastman Kodak plant for a living, and could not go must farther in his lifetime. As for Fox, he touched on illegal immigrant exploitation issues, but read for yourself.

Ken Cooke - 5-16-2005 at 04:41 PM

Sorry Hose, I just spotted this on my "Yahoo News" this afternoon.

JESSE - 5-16-2005 at 05:29 PM

Vicente Fox is an idiot.

Sharksbaja - 5-16-2005 at 05:50 PM

we shouldn't stereotype

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Sharksbaja]

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Sharksbaja]

bajajudy - 5-17-2005 at 06:57 AM

I love that I live in a country where people call each other fatso and dont get offended. I fear that Americans have become unbelievably thin skinned.....no matter what color that skin is.

bajajudy

Baja Bernie - 5-17-2005 at 08:12 AM

Just what in the heck do you mean by that?????Never been accused of being thinned skinned. My boss' always did say I wore my heart on my sleeve--BUT that is different--Right!!!:tumble::spingrin::lol::yes:;);D--Hose A just look at me go.

bajajudy - 5-17-2005 at 09:04 AM

:moon:

JESSE - 5-17-2005 at 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by grover
I think a lot of Mexicans are somewhat unaware of the severity of Political Correctness up here.

I had a Spanish professor from Guadalajara ask me right out loud in an SDSU class "Everyone knows that people with dark skin have less opportunity in life; verdad, Grover?"

:O


You are correct, most Mexicans are clueless when it comes to the sensibilities of other races, i think the way Mexican media sees Blacks is horrible and racist, you see a lot of stuff here that would cause riots in the U.S.

David K - 5-17-2005 at 05:32 PM

Oh God... now you went and did it! :smug::barf::O

Ken Cooke - 5-17-2005 at 05:34 PM

Let's keep the thread going...As for Fox's comments, he is discussing the realities of capitalism and the need for a perpetual underclass in order for capitalism to function properly. His discourse and healthy discussions/dialogue are useful in talking about inequities that Latinos and Black do face.

On a lighter note, I frequently get mistaken for being a Mexican Fisherman - due to my coal-black skin!:cool:


My PictureMy Picture (2nd from Left)

David K - 5-17-2005 at 06:32 PM

Suzanne (now Mrs. Baja Ken) and Ken, when I first met them at Viva Baja #1 (Oct. 2000)...



Then a couple years later we camped together on Shell Island (along with HotSchott and Val)...

From El Universal

bajajudy - 5-18-2005 at 06:57 AM

Analysts say racism unrecognized

The president's insensitive remarks last week have brought the issue to light.

BY LAURENCE ILIFF AND LENNOX SAMUELS/Dallas Morning News
May 18, 2005


President Vicente Fox's controversial comment about blacks in the United States is typical of a Mexico that fails to recognize its own racist attitudes, even as skin tone and economic success move in near lockstep, analysts said Tuesday.

In the official census, Mexicans of African descent are not even counted as a distinct group. White Mexicans dominate TV programs and advertising. Most politicians have light brown skin or are white like Fox, whose mother is from Spain.

"Racism is very deeply ingrained here, but no one accepts (that fact)," said Sergio Aguayo, a longtime human rights activist. "What Fox said was part of the language of all Mexicans. The paradigm of beauty is white skin and blue eyes."

Of Mexico's 105 million people, 80 percent are mestizo (a mixture of Spanish and Indian descent), 10 percent are Indian and 10 percent are white, according to the polling firm MUND Americas.

The president's remarks may have been impolitic, but they were based on the truth, said Robert C. Smith, a political science professor at San Francisco State University.

He said Fox was alluding to the fact that black Americans are among the lowest-paid people in the U.S. and that "even they" would not accept certain jobs at those wages.

"I think the president may have spoken a little inelegantly, but the substance of his statement was correct," Smith said. "The massive number of immigrants has depressed the wages of lowwage workers, who historically have been disproportionately African-American."

Fox's words caused little outrage in Mexico, mostly because Mexicans are used to such talk.

"This is something he could say to me, something he could say privately, but not something a politician should say publicly," said Jorge Anorve Zapata, an elementary school teacher and AfroMexican from the Pacific Coast state of Guerrero.

"Of course it's racist, but the racism is implicit; it's like a joke," said Anorve. "He said it in an unconscious way, but he should not have said it."

Some analysts, however, were not so hard on Fox.

"I could easily have said something like that in a lecture and had nothing come of it, because historically (in the United States) blacks have had to do a lot of the crap work," said Larry Birns, director of the Council on Hemispheric Affairs in Washington, D.C.

"Fox is getting a bad rap, because while the remark is ridiculous, one should get indignant about the reality it addresses," Birns said. "At the same time, it reveals what a goofball he is. It is placing blacks in a humiliating reference."

So What..............

MrBillM - 5-18-2005 at 11:11 AM

"Never has so much been written by so many about so little !"

Apologies to Winston Churchill

So Vicente said something insignificant which may or may not reveal an innate racism or prejudice. Anyone who has spent time conversing with Mexicans is probably aware that their opinions of other races can be intemperate, but you will find the same thing anywhere you travel. In the greater scheme of life events, this amounts to absolutely NOTHING.

Ken Cooke - 5-31-2005 at 04:49 PM

Didn't Fox's statement have more to do with immigration than racism? Is everyone here missing the point???

JESSE - 5-31-2005 at 05:10 PM

Fox just did it again, he criticized the media today for "rehashing" the issue of 350 women who have been murdered in Ciudad Ju?rez.

Hes just an idiot.

Capt. George - 6-1-2005 at 12:32 AM

All he did was call "a spade, a spade"..............(You can't handle the truth!!)

Tired of the lily livered U.S. politicos bowing to every whining minority that comes along....worked all the majoe ghettos of NYC...been there, done that, bye-bye......one of the reasons I'm in Baja.....

Good for you Vincente, at least you got some balls left.......

Capt. George C. Purrman

Oso - 6-12-2005 at 03:11 PM

I thought I posted this before somewhere, but this is where it belongs...

http://elcerebro.com/archivo/negros.htm

Eli - 6-12-2005 at 04:55 PM

Too funny Oso. Got to admit, first time I ever really tuned into a rapper and throughly enjoyed it.

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2005 at 05:48 PM

Muy muy divertido Oso. Gracias,
++Ken++

movinguy - 6-30-2005 at 10:47 AM

Any thoughts on this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050630/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico...

I'm not one for political correctness but not sure this was a great idea . . .:?:

Dave - 6-30-2005 at 12:08 PM

I honestly don't know how Fox gets around with one foot continuously stuck in his mouth.

Ken Cooke - 6-30-2005 at 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by movinguy
Any thoughts on this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050630/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico...

I'm not one for political correctness but not sure this was a great idea . . .:?:


These stamps are horrible. The full line of stamps were shown in todays LA Times, and I was horrified by these images, and also by the ignorance of so many of the Mexican people about this simply being about "A historical comic strip" and not about belittling a group of 1 million people in their own country (read: Afro-Mexicans). Very sad stuff...

Dave - 6-30-2005 at 08:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
These stamps are horrible.


That's an understatement. You have to believe that after the last go around Fox and the government did this intentionally out of some form of perverse machismo. They can't be that stupid.

Ken Cooke - 7-1-2005 at 12:47 AM

Read this:

"The Bush administration condemned newly issued Mexican stamps that feature a black comic book character with exaggerated thick lips.

Press Secretary Scott McClellan said: "Racial stereotypes are offensive?. Images such as these have no place in today's world."

In Mexico, Ruben Aguilar, a spokesman for President Vicente Fox, said, "It seems strange to me that this celebration of Mexican culture ? is misunderstood." He said the comic had helped "combat racism and promote family values" in Mexico."

Helped combat racism & promote family values??? Huh?:?:

Sharksbaja - 7-1-2005 at 01:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Read this:

"The Bush administration condemned newly issued Mexican stamps that feature a black comic book character with exaggerated thick lips.

Press Secretary Scott McClellan said: "Racial stereotypes are offensive?. Images such as these have no place in today's world."

In Mexico, Ruben Aguilar, a spokesman for President Vicente Fox, said, "It seems strange to me that this celebration of Mexican culture ? is misunderstood." He said the comic had helped "combat racism and promote family values" in Mexico."

Helped combat racism & promote family values??? Huh?:?:



sure, didn't you know that 2 dimensional ZAP type cartoons are the basis and tools for combating racism and instilling good family values. Too bad these idiots live on some other planet. Celebrate? Cultural? Hoooweeee!

They are trying to distract us....and it's working!

Memin Pinguin

Oso - 7-1-2005 at 07:12 PM

http://www.notofilia.com/

I used to read those comics 40 years ago, they've never changed. Mexico is slow to recognize political correctness. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion.

http://search.ebay.com/Memin_W0QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]

http://members.tripod.com/gmoaguilera/

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]
http://ngrand78.blogspot.com/2005/06/memin-pinguin.html

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/misc/newsid_4638000/4638779...

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]
http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~21474~294447...


[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]

OOps, does this need to be moved to the thread on the Baja News forum?

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]

Oso - 7-1-2005 at 07:51 PM

I just posted a bunch of links on this subject on the main forum. That post maybe needs to be moved here. We seem to be all over the place on this subject, as far as where to put it.

BTW, when I said "it's a matter of opinion", I didn't include mine. Here it is: It's offensive. Now, and always has been.

Ironically, there is a thriving market at swap meets and flea markets in the U.S. for ceramic Aunt Jemimas and early 1900's advertising with similar exaggerated characters. The majority of those buying such memorabilia (according to sellers) are African-Americans.

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]

Dave - 7-1-2005 at 09:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oso
But, there is a thriving market at swap meets and flea markets in the U.S. for ceramic Aunt Jemimas and early 1900's advertising with similar exaggerated characters. The majority of those buying such memorabilia (according to sellers) are African-Americans.


But nothing.

Oso, you really don't need to go there, do you?

timing is everything

BajaVida - 7-1-2005 at 09:55 PM

the Mexican Postal Service could not have picked a worse time to unveil these stamps---too soon after Fox made his negative comments about African Americans

can't wait to hear Al Sharpton on this one

Oso - 7-2-2005 at 09:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
[
But nothing.

Oso, you really don't need to go there, do you?


The "but" was a mistake. The irony of the flea market observation was a seperate matter and not meant to excuse or justify the stamps. They are inexcusable. One thing is private ownership of "historical" memorabilia out of a sense of irony, the other is public, government sponsored, perpetuation of offensive imagery. I know any number of Mexicans who decorate their homes with images of the "indio dormido", taking a siesta under a big sombrero against a saguaro. At a gringo's house it would be offensive and if the USPS put out a stamp with that image, I'm sure the Mexican gov't would raise a stink. It's much like use of the N-word. They can, we can't.

The amazing thing is how long "Memin" has continued in print. It was never really funny. My favorite was always "Los Supermachos" back when Eduardo Del Rio,"Rius", was drawing it., after that "La Garrapata", then "Chanoc".

Oso - 7-2-2005 at 03:32 PM

All 750,000 "Memin" stamps sold out in two days.

From his most recent comments, Vicente Fox still doesn't "get it".

JESSE - 7-2-2005 at 04:06 PM

Didnt i tell you Mexicans are ignorant when it comes to the sensitivities of other races? The Fox goverment is as stupid as it gets.

Oso - 7-2-2005 at 06:24 PM

Jesse, this is one of those occasions upon which we are in total agreement.

One of the things which I have found particularly offensive to my own family in recent years is that banda- I don't remember their name and don't want to- that dresses up like "pieles rojas" with feathers and "war paint". Since most of them have at least some Indian blood, you'd think they wouldn't imitate such obscenities as "Chief Knockahoma" of the Atlanta Braves, or the Washington Redskins, Cleveland Indians, FSU Seminoles, etc. etc. ad nauseum.:barf:

[Edited on 7-3-2005 by Oso]

Aunt Jemima, Etc

MrBillM - 7-3-2005 at 09:07 AM

I've been looking for a long time for a plaster "Black" Lawn Jockey, but have become resigned to the fact that I will have to buy a "White" one and color it myself.

Two thoughts: 1. Why is a "Black" jockey demeaning and not a "White" one and 2. Why would the occupation of Jockey be demeaning ???? I once knew a jockey who rode at Hollywood Park and elsewhere and he made a good living.

In recent years, there has also been a resurgence in interest over the old Amos and Andy TV series which we LOVED as kids.

Some people need to learn to laugh at themselves and other without feeling like they're committing a crime.

Ken Cooke - 7-5-2005 at 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oso

Ironically, there is a thriving market at swap meets and flea markets in the U.S. for ceramic Aunt Jemimas and early 1900's advertising with similar exaggerated characters. The majority of those buying such memorabilia (according to sellers) are African-Americans.

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]


Reason for this is to remember the kind of racism that passed itself off as casual advertising and popular culture. This memorabilia is very hard to obtain and worth $$$. My wife has a miniature Muhammad Ali figure that her mother bought for her, and several Jim Crow-era figures. My best friend Tony who is an avid African art collector is always looking for this vintage American memorabilia as well. As for the Mexican postage stamps, he's not at all happy about these.

Oso - 7-5-2005 at 07:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by Oso

Ironically, there is a thriving market at swap meets and flea markets in the U.S. for ceramic Aunt Jemimas and early 1900's advertising with similar exaggerated characters. The majority of those buying such memorabilia (according to sellers) are African-Americans.

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Oso]


Reason for this is to remember the kind of racism that passed itself off as casual advertising and popular culture. This memorabilia is very hard to obtain and worth $$$. My wife has a miniature Muhammad Ali figure that her mother bought for her, and several Jim Crow-era figures. My best friend Tony who is an avid African art collector is always looking for this vintage American memorabilia as well. As for the Mexican postage stamps, he's not at all happy about these.


Ken, that is the only point I was making with the flea market comment. The Memin comic books should have passed into vintage memorabilia with pictures of Al Jolson a long time ago. The fact that they are still being published is as funny as Archie Bunker made up for a minstrel show in 2005.

Do you remember if it was Red Foxx or someone else who said he never used aspirin because he was damned if he was going to pick the cotton out of the bottle?

Once, back in the 80's, I was privileged to be invited by co-workers to a small, private black club in Charlotte, NC, after our office Xmas party had petered out. This was not a commercial operation, just a little house that some of the older guys had gotten together and bought years ago, so they could have a place of their own for parties, card games and socializing. After several liquid refreshments, I started looking for the facilities. I found the right door but stopped dead in my tracks. Mounted on the door was about a 12" long rectangular metal sign that said "Colored". As I stood there, staring at it, everybody started laughing and hooting at me. "You have to go out in the back yard, man!" Literally red-faced, I felt a bit embarrased but at the same time good about being accepted enough to be there.

Ken Cooke - 7-5-2005 at 09:54 PM

Oso, great observations. My wife Suzanne is from Flint, MI and is very Waspy. When living in Michigan, we traveled to Detroit regularly to check out the Techno scene which is mostly Black and very underground. She was happy to really experience Detroit from the Black perspective with me - to visit the private (mostly Black) clubs, walk the streets of downtown Detroit, and hang out with all of the producers of the House music scene that are known the world over.

After moving back to Southern Cal., we visited friends in Rosarito Beach, hung out at peoples homes in Playas de TJ, and really got to know folks in San Felipe and San Pedro Martir. None of these people speak English, but everyone was very cool and really wanted to know what we (as Americans) were all about. As for the postage stamps, I think they represent a true institutional ignorance/racism that is firmly planted in Mexican society. Similar to the thought of 'Mejorando la Raza' or 'Bettering the race' by having children with fairer complexions than the parents, which is prevalent in Mexico.

Funny thing however, when I worked on the East coast with some famous Salsa performers of Puerto Rican decent, they had nothing but bad stuff to say about Mexicans. They depicted the Mexicans they came into contact with as being of poor social graces and inferior style. I felt this was horrible - especially given the circumstances of their meeting these Mexican-Americans - at Selena Quintanilla's funeral and at the Latin Grammys!