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spearfishing

fishinrich - 5-26-2005 at 05:12 AM

GTB--Looks like the hunting was good. I fished the area south of there last week and caught some nice cabrilla to #20. The pictures of the guy with the small cabrilla are great but the ones of julie with the big pregnant females are horrible. 30 years ago I had the mentality of shoot the biggest to prove I was the baddest spero out there. Thank goodness I still have enough brain cells left to know better now. Those big females full of eggs are the breaders and when caught should be let go and never speared just so someone can have the "record". I thought julie would know and care more about the resource than that???. Next time please let the big ones live, they are the future!!!!-----fishin rich

pascuale - 5-26-2005 at 08:14 AM

First, Julie is an awesome spearo and has great skill. I guess she had alot of people to feed.

Second, this is what I was afraid of in my previous posts to GTB. I thought you (GTB) said that you would not let people kill numerous grouper and you practice conservation. Thats a bummer, no ifs, ands, or buts. Now there will be 100's of people there doing the same thing because you are showing them by example by posting your report on every board there is. Hope the business goes well! Glad I didnt show you where the halibut are.

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by pascuale]

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by pascuale]

gonetobaja - 5-26-2005 at 08:51 AM

Too bad you guys are acting like I dont know whats up.

First of all the grouper had squid in their stomachs. Big ones. After we shot them they threw up all over the bottom of the boat. They have already finished their spawning in the deep water and have moved up to the shallows to gorge on bait and squid.

Second of all, those are gulf grouper they are not big, they are small. Gulf grouper get to over 200lbs so there goes your smartness of big breeder feamales, and the smaller ones are leopard grouper of which the world record is 26 lbs. there is also a barred snapper. We shot only 4 fish each over two days of shooting, far less than other fishermen in the area. Thats 12 fish total for you young college types who are quick to say I shoot numerous fish. Those where the only two grouper she shot on the trip.

Pascuale, I already know where the fish are, I just wanted to make you feel like you know something, by your post you show everyone your cards.

You guys need to get your facts straight before you get on the world wide web and start bashing me with all of your knowledge.

My business is going fine.

Once a month on the dead tide I bring 4 people down to gonzaga to experience the spearfishing trip of a lifetime and we leave with the same 8-13 fish every time. All of the fish are eaten. Why dont you guys bash someone else whos trying to make a living like the big 100 and 80ft charters with 15 pangas that rape the midrifts every month or the gill netters at the islands or the illegal hooka divers getting sea cucumbers and selling them to the japanese?

Its because I really make my living as a professional guide and I do practice what I preach, and you guys just want to sound like you know what you are talking about.

Julie 3 fish (2 grouper and 1 snapper) ended up making 40lbs of fillets that she gave to family and friends, thats the only thing you guys got right...

fishin rich, you are right, I dont have alot of brain cells left, I guess I thought you guys would appreciate a gonzaga bay spearfishing report with pics..."I thought Julie would care more about the resource than that..." she only shot 3 fish...

nothing worse than uninformed comments made to make the posters look like they are saving the world, truly lame.

Pascuale, 100s of people? to Gonzaga? You just dont want to share a good fishing spot. Its not yours, the ocean belongs to everyone.

Sorry I posted...

GTB

Dale,

capt. mike - 5-27-2005 at 06:57 AM

illigetimi non carburundum! :coolup:

dont be sorry...

eetdrt88 - 5-28-2005 at 11:12 AM

you posted,i think i speak for the majority when i say that i was impressed with the pics of your trip....anyone that has ever tried spearfishing knows it is not very easy....these guys that are giving you flak are worried about the same thing that everyone is worried about which is fish populations dwindling because of greedy fishermen,personally i think they are barking up the wrong tree by pointing the finger at you....keep posting those trip reports,we need them :smug:

Gringos

jrbaja - 5-28-2005 at 11:18 AM

+ Gringos = Drama :lol:

pascuale - 5-28-2005 at 06:19 PM

Sorry GTB, but shooting any Grouper or Black Seabass is not my idea of conservation. Thats just my opinion. I dont want that place to become like Southern california became after everyone shot all the Black Seabass. Both species are slow to grow and the leapard grouper or Cabrilla Sardinera are not scarce so shooting them isnt a problem, but the gulf grouper are very rare so by shooting them your just wiping out a population. Thats fine because you wont have any fish for your customers to shoot in all those caves you frequent. Better find new spots because those same ones will be empty now.

[Edited on 5-29-2005 by pascuale]

aldosalato - 5-28-2005 at 08:41 PM

Spearfishing freedivers probably catch less than 1% of all the groupers taken out in Baja every year.

pascuale - 5-29-2005 at 12:00 AM

13 grouper a month that are 50 years old give or take times 12 months a year is almost 140 fish a year. There will be no more grouper in those caves ever again with that destruction. That is what I am concerned about GTB and i do scrutinize the gill netters as well. If we dont start somewhere then nothing will ever get done. Its cool to see that your doing what you love but like you said, no one owns the ocean, so dont take what cant be replaced. Thanks.

Big fish

Sharksbaja - 5-29-2005 at 01:13 AM

GTB... It's good to hear that some folks are more and more aware of the necessity of preserving brood stock. I am a spearfisherman from way back and have followed the demise of the black and white seabass. Although spearfishers are certainly not the cause of their plight, but the fact remains that these large fish are an easier target and easier to locate. Moreover, spearfishing contests in areas of concentrations of these awesome animals should be monitored at least to some degree as well as the banning of spearing of obviously pregnant females of a predetermined size. This would behoove the arguement in favor of spearfishing. By requiring business owners to collect data and thereby creating a logical reference database one could track or otherwise evaluate fish populations and trends. As the deminishing numbers (of large brood fish)continues through deliberate,incidental or by other non-target means so does the exponential reproduction ratio. I can attest to witness charter boat plundering... I used to watch with mouth agape from a cliffside perch as dive boats would sit off-shore of Catalina Is. and let the "night-dive checkout" students return with sacks of 'bugs' and 'abs'. This an example of a charter(legit) "biz gone bad" as these dives were not for food.
Unfortunately, L.A. and it's millions of week-end warriors exacerbated the problems. The Sea of Cortez is precariously perched, especially with the blind eye of the law in Mexico. It seems you don't fit this category. My fears are the same as some others. Keep the big ones alive.
On another point you made, what do you consider shallow for squid?. Squid are typically deeper water animals that surface and dive to the sea floor during mating seasons. It is possible that the squid was eaten/taken during these ascents/descents, although they die after mating and sink or stay on the ocean floor where they are consumed en masse. THAT is another industry in the SOC that needs eyeballin'.

mrchuck - 5-29-2005 at 07:21 AM

Question s to "Gone to Baja":

1) your business of fishing tours, I presume that you have an FM-3 immigration document with the work in Baja page stamped and approved??
Also registered with Mexico"s Hacienda(IRS) for paying your Mexican taxes due from your income made in Mexico???

2) That all of your "paid clients" have a valid fishing license. That you know and are aware that anyone spear fishing MUST have one.
(no scuba fishing allowed).

3) Or is it really true that you are just another one of those "scab" Americans that have an ILLEGAL business in Mexico, never respect the Mexican Law, and just skate along over the thin ice and hope no Official catches you red-handed!

Awaiting your answer,,,,,,mc

Good grief

jrbaja - 5-29-2005 at 11:32 AM

it looks as if the occasional gringo tourists have taken it upon themselves to fight for yet another cause in a foreign country.
Why don't you busy body tourists stick with the neuter and spade brigades you came down here and started, or actually doing something to repair the country that has really gone to chit. You live in it.
Frying pans calling kettles black so to speak!

WTF do you know chuckie about being legal down here? And it's pretty presumptious of you to assume that everyone down here is doing something illegal.
And what business is it of yours anyway?

sounds like Mr Chucky

eetdrt88 - 5-29-2005 at 02:15 PM

didnt have a good bowel movement this morning,maybe he needs to drink some prune juice and calm the **** down

but,but, I didn't dint do it yo honor

Sharksbaja - 5-29-2005 at 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
or actually doing something to repair the country that has really gone to sh-t. You live in it.
Frying pans calling kettles black so to speak!

........you can say that again JR. It is a matter of common sense how you treat your own backyard. Or someone elses.

mrchuck - 5-29-2005 at 05:31 PM

To jr baja:
Now that you have "chimed" in, tell me about your Mexican Business License that you have as to your bamboo business of constructing products and selling to others, there in San Bartolo, Mexico??

While your at it, tell me about your immigration status, ie, are you a FM-T 180 day, or do you have an FM-3 document with the "work status approved" from the La Paz Immigration office which controls the San Bartolo area???

I have followed your postings for years, from your Rosarito Beach Titanic movie set construction days, to here in the Los Barriles & San Bartolo area postings, where you are now working in the "bamboo furniture business.

So tell us about how much money you pay your San Bartolo Mexican employees, and who is your Mexican accountant on record that handles your business affairs such as paying the Social Security, Medical, to all your employees, or their retirement benefits, or even your state and Federal Income taxes.
I would bet you that you aren't even presently registered with Mexican Immigration and you are now "flying under the radar", so to speak, hoping no one in the San Bartolo will turn you in to the Federal Authorities.
I can recommend a great Accountant to you to start the paper work for you and your business, if you desire to be legal,,,,

Hey Bruce Leach in Mulege, what do you say to the illegal businesses in your Mulege area? You or your wife let them slide by???? I don't think so,,,,

Saludos,,,,mc

[Edited on 5-30-2005 by mrchuck]

mike odell - 5-29-2005 at 06:26 PM

To Junior so called baja,
I think you have bet, been raised and called, show your
hole cards! I thinks your holding a busted hand.
First of all, you ruminate about the American community in
this area, to the degree we will no longer tolerate your
attitude. So as Mr Chuck, said post your info here about your bammboo business, or shut up, or go away, the latter is preferable.
I have worked here in this area LEGALLY for many years,
have you? I have been through the FM3/FM2/Immigrado/
Mexican Citizen, have you? I have an accountant, an attorney, I have documentation for all of my workers,including, IMMS, Retirement benifits,etc, do you have any of this? I also hold business licenses for retail stores. Do you? I also pay my Mexican taxes.
All of the above, are costs of doing business Legally in
Mexico, I think you should get legal, the clock is ticking.
I know a few Americans here that are not working legally,
but they are not on this board everyday, thumbing there nose at everyone, and I choose to leave them alone until
They turn into a person such as youself.
Jr it is indeed a stupid bird that chits in it's own nest.

narks!!!

eetdrt88 - 5-29-2005 at 10:08 PM

the websters definition for nark is 1.stool pigeon,informer 2.annoying person.....welll that would pretty much describe the last 2 posts

Only idiots assume,

jrbaja - 5-30-2005 at 08:59 AM

and again clowns, what business is it of yours anyway? Very typical gringo "better than thou attitudes" and also very typical that neither of you have a friggen clue.
Everybody but you is working illegally down here with no legal status? Please you self centered pieces of work, get a damn clue!
It cracks me up that the people that whine so much about others being legal, are also the ones that whine about how much work it is and money it costs to become legal. :lol:

Again my nosey friends, mind your own business!

And one more thing for the

jrbaja - 5-30-2005 at 09:18 AM

busybody gringos. If you have a problem with other peoples lives, why don't you try turning us "illegals" as you are assuming, into the authorities. I love the way they deal with false accusations down here! Pendejos!

pascuale - 5-30-2005 at 11:31 AM

Hey Jr Baja are you white or mexican because if your white, that would make you a gringo also, correct?

OLDFEZZYWIG - 5-30-2005 at 12:51 PM

"here and started, or actually doing something to repair the country that has really gone to sh-t. You live in it."

I noticed 3 million americans trying to sneak over the border into Mexico every year ****** .

[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]

big fish, big house, big appetite

Sharksbaja - 5-30-2005 at 02:15 PM

My fear is one of the past realities in the U.S. Everyone trying to outdo the other. Especially the wealthy extremists. Result: a screwed up environment and a list of extinct animals to go with it. But hey, your grandkids could brag about it.

gonetobaja - 5-30-2005 at 11:10 PM

Well just got back from the south and saw the response.

Sharksbaja, by the shallows I mean between 2 and 40 feet. In gonzaga bay right in front of Alfonsinas we were catching squid by hand that were between 1ft and 3ft. They were in schools of 20 or so and were crusing the shoreline. I dont know what they where looking for but I could stand in the water and a squid would swim right up to me and I grabbed it by the head. We have all of that footage on video. The grouper where in the 2-40ft range. There was a huge school of bait about 4-6inches long and the grouper school was charging into them. It was amazing. I was suprised acutualy when the squid came out of the grouper. It was about 1ft of body with the tentacles already digested off. It stank like,...well....half rotted digesting squid.

MC, The only business of mine you need to know is that its gonna cost you $700.00 for 4 days.....and that Im the best fu#$ing Spearfishing guide that runs out of Gonzaga. And *********************************************! Or you can check out my website mr chuck at http://www.gonetobaja.com. And no, you cant book a trip.

How do I make my money in the states? http://www.spearfishingvideos.com I sell videos. Yes a shameless plug but you asked for it. Yep thats right Im gonna teach the whole world how to freedive spearfish. Its easy and fun, and you get to put fresh fish on the table.

Well what now? Im gonna sharpen my speartips and head down to Gonzaga bay on the 12th of June. Im the one staring at the sea sitting on the beach. Im gonna bring more video equipment and video the whole thing, again. Then we are going to produce a video that shows the two expeiditons so everyone can see what Im talking about.

Pascuale, I shot my first grouper at the islands when you where 4. I dont know why you keep talking about caves. Only about 20% of the fish I have shoot over the years have been in caves. The majority have been shot while swimming around on patrol for food. They try to find a cave after they have been shot. I have been selective harvesting fish from the islands for years and go back to the same spots and get the same fish. In addition there are sport fishing boats that leave from San Felipe and fish the same spots that I do. Over the years the catch has been consistant with only the loss of Totuaba(which are rebounding) from netting being the change. The real problem is the netting. I saw this weekend fishermen unloading and about 80%of the catch was sharks. all of them 3-5feet . Hammerheads and silky sharks. They were all sold. The catch from the panga was about 40 sharks, and a few reef fish.

check out this recent fish count

http://www.sanfelipe.com.mx/fishing/2005_reports/JA050805pic...

Oh yea, while I was getting out of the water after a nice 2 hr freedive hunitng trip where I shot nothing I found a nice 20ft piece of braided mono hooked to a wire leader connected to a chrome and red crocodile spoon stuck in the rocks :?:

Yes I worked it loose and disposed of it. Also a 3x4 piece of Poly net showed up on my beach in puertecitos. Nothing dead in it luckly.

When you freedive, shooting up all of the breeding population of groupers I dont think is possible. Its the more devistating combination of over netting combined with fishermen droping live squid on 150lb test to 200ft and hog hauling up the big mammas. Freedivers are among the most respectfull and understanding patrons of the ocean. Also the natural depth of the grouper population makes it very difficult to effectively dent while freediving. A person on SCUBA gear at night with a light and a speargun is a complete different story. Thats poaching, and thats a whole different problem.

Freedive spearfishing is the only manner in which a person can harvest a selected fish from the ocean without harming any other marine life. The freedive spearfisher can make a concious decision when they see the fish if they want to take it or not. They know what type and size. They have no tanks so the fish has all of the advantages. The freediver only gets one shot a a time by a rubber band powered speargun. Any other way you get seafood from the ocean you are going to harm something else.

People dont like to hear me say that but its true.

However, I would never tell someone what type of fish to catch, and how to catch it. I leave that up to the goverment. People who tell other people how to live should have a carburator shoved up their illigetimatem just like mike said.

JR, I didnt know you sold bamboo funiture, I got one for ya. Its a bamboo cage with a sliding front door on it. You put a corona with a lime inside and call it a "tourist trap"

Sure seems to be alot of uptight stress lovers around baja lately, saw a bunch of them walk out of my friends resturant this weekend because the order was taking too long..."I ordered the camarone asados and you sent me shrimp, now dammit I know what I ordered and this is inexcuseable!!"

Im gonna go thaw out some grouper fillets for tomorrow....now wheres that pacifico......

GTB

[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]

Sharksbaja - 5-30-2005 at 11:46 PM

My God , a person who tells it as he see it....and truthfully at that. I am certainly no expert but I will have to concur on most points. I understand that female groupers unlike most sharks reproduce at an early age. I would think that during this period most respectful spearers would have mercy on the "mamas grandes".
The shark problem on the other hand is much more complex. The ordinary pangrero has no idea he is threatening his livelyhood and it won't take generations to witness. The use of gillnets set in areas of large concentrations of shark populations will have a negative impact locally as other apex predators fill the void. This imbalance although controversial can signal the increase of other predator fish as well. The squid in shallow water seems strange although I have seen the large Humboldt variety in years past left high and dry on the rocks near L.A. a few times.
Whistler might have some good info on Baja squid behavior and habits.

pascuale - 5-31-2005 at 12:38 AM

GTB

Thats cool man, from your site it seems that you spend most of your time right below Puertecitos, not Gonzaga. As it looks from your website, you cant ********** and you havent shot much either so I would guess that you havent been going to Gonzaga for long because I have never seen or heard of you there. Bottom line, I simply have my opinion and I can express it on the World wide web if I F*&^ing want to. Why? Because i dont want a bunch of idiots shooting grouper in Gonzaga or anywhere, thats why! Sure man, post pics of big fish and all the people who dont know how scarce they are are gonna say, "Cool thats awesome". They dont know how fragile the grouper population is and how slow they grow, and what you are doing by showing that is saying that its ok to do. I simply dont agree. Peace. Oh and by the way, I shot one 28lb and one 29lb leapard grouper in 1 day without a boat off the beach. Unofficial world record I guess, but who F&*%in cares, that means nothing to me.
http://www.mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2004/mfn040920/mfn040920.htm

[Edited on 5-31-2005 by pascuale]

[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]

Pascuale

jrbaja - 5-31-2005 at 08:43 AM

Sounds like yer saying that it's ok for you to shoot fish but nobody else can? Or just talking about it and showing pictures is bad? Or what exactly are you saying?

Mike Odell

jrbaja - 5-31-2005 at 08:56 AM

"First of all, you ruminate about the American community in
this area, to the degree we will no longer tolerate your
attitude." :lol:

Well Sr.Odell, that is a crock of dung! I understand you have been a builder down here for some time. We have mutual acquaintances and for you to pretend that there is just the one american community going on, you must not get out much.
How many different neuter and spade brigades does LB have now? That's because you can't even get along with yourselves. :lol:

I do hear you are a good builder though so I'm not going to argue with you about what's really none of your business.
Unless of course you are somehow now a part of Mexican Immigration as well as a construction worker.

pascuale - 5-31-2005 at 09:16 AM

Like I said most people dont have a clue. JR Baja, Cabrilla reproduce and grow faster than gulf grouper, sawtail grouper, or black seabass. Those fish I shot are cabrilla or leapard grouper. I do shoot fish but not endangered ones. I was simply proving that Im not just some guy who voices his opinion and doesnt have the credentials to do it. Either way, GTB will continue his missions to Gonzaga and i hope he has a good time. The point of this post was to hopefully sway him from shooting any more grouper and teaching hios customers the same thing. I am just concerned that is all.

Seems fair enough to me!

jrbaja - 5-31-2005 at 10:08 AM

Peoples opinions are a big part of how I form some of my own!

gonetobaja - 5-31-2005 at 06:41 PM

Pascuale your pic dosent give you any backup for anything. Its a pic of you with two shot fish. Its good to hear you dont shoot endangered fish, are you implying that I do? Where are these credentials you speak of? What are the endangered fish you speak of? Gulf Grouper? Here is a link on that fish

http://www.mexfish.com/fish/ggroup/ggroup.htm

The Gulf grouper may not be swarming all over like the easy to shoot Cabrilla in your pic but it dosent mean they are endangered. In fact I have heard nothing about Gulf grouper or any of the species you speak of as endangered in Baja. As you know there is no SCUBA spearing in Baja. There are still Big Black Sea bass and Grouper in Baja. In California it is another story. People on tanks could sit on the bottom and wait for them to come into range and they are now protected in American waters as a result. The policy of Mexico as you know is to only allow spearfishing while freediving, which in my opinion has led to the continued abundance of these types of fish in the pacific and sea of cortez. If there was a real problem with the Gulf Grouper population they would be protected like the Totuaba in my area. But as it stands the Gulf Grouper is a staple food fish of baja. I dont hold the opinion that the mexican authorities are completely incapable. Although I would agree that some policies could use some work.

Maybe if you could give us something other than your opinion that Gulf Grouper are endangered, or tell us you are a college taught fishologist or something.....

Is any type of Gulf grouper harvest in your opinon bad? Or is it just me shooting them in the Gonzaga bay area? Do you feel the same way about every person that hooks a grouper on a hook and line? If you could give me some reason that I should stop harvesting this type of fish other than the fact that you dont like it, I would give it consideration. After all we are both freediver spearfishermen wanting the same thing as far as conservation of the ocean. However if your Endangered Gulf Grouper poplulation is just a theory than you should clear that up. I would be happy to teach my customers not to shoot Gulf Grouper just like I tell them not to shoot Totuaba but its got to be for more reasons other than your personal opinion.

I only know that Gulf grouper are very legal to harvest in Baja. I also know that the medium size fish that we take are not the huge deep dwelling breeders, and year after year we get the same size, and type of selective harvested Gulf and Lepoard grouper from the same spots.

Gulf Grouper are not endangered, they are just not easy to find. You have to follow the schools of sardines and birds and dive deep. You have to know where they are at different times of the year. They are a challange to hunt while freediving. Just because I turn my customers on to quality once in a lifetime fish dosent mean that I am short sighted, or that I kill endangered animals. It only means that Im doing my job.

Pascuale if you need something to worry about, remember
*********************************************
*********************************************.
I also hear that the japanese my start up their operation again....Its a "BIGGER" problem than the gulf grouper if ya know what I mean...(I love the momma jokes!)

GTB
http://www.gonetobaja.com
http://www.spearfishingvideos.com

"His spearfishing knowledge seems to be true but his momma jokes are totaly out of line..."

[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]

Skipjack Joe - 5-31-2005 at 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gonetobaja
I would be happy to teach my customers not to shoot Gulf Grouper just like I tell them not to shoot Totuaba but its got to be for more reasons other than your personal opinion.

Tell your customers not to wait for the baja grouper to reach the state of the totuaba before practicing conservation. Tell them not to wait for the Mexican authorities to provide stricter restrictions because they are slow to act.

Anyone who has fished the cortez for over a decade or two can see these fish have greatly declined. It takes no genius to figure out that those fish that hero is holding will take a lifetime to replace. Each looks to be over 50 yrs old.

I haven't seen a local baja grouper brought in at Loreto in 20 years. They used to be so abundant pangeros would bring some daily from the Lobos reef off the north end of Carmen. The supply was limitless, people said. Even Ray Cannon recognized their declining numbers forty years ago when their populations were far greater than now.

Your self imposed fish management practices at Gonzaga are subjective and self serving. Looking into a cave to see if a fish has replaced another is not very scientific.

Regarding your arguments whether the baja grouper is an endangered species or not. Like I said - given their lifespan and their relative absence I know there is a problem. But I googled up the species and, not surprisingly, did find them on a threatened list:

http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=14049

An old friend of mine showed me his photos of the first Tony Reyes trips in the fifties. The decks were littered with large groupers. Now, they are as scarce as hen's teeth. Most trips - nothing. Some trips - 2 or 3 perhaps. That's for a group of 25 anglers. Let's see ... if everyone followed your management techniques (she's holding up 2 baja groupers) or the Mexican fishing regulations that would add up to 50 groupers per trip.

Do you think that's a sustainable yield?

I am not going to spend a lot of my posts on the subject (although you've been blowing a lot of smoke, e.g. fish fecundity) but I do wish to support FishinRich's main premise on the subject - which is correct.

Why not have your customers pursue the fast growing pelagic species? I am not a spearfisherman - but why not go after the yellowtail, dorado, or tuna? Surely they are an equally great accomplishment.

Don Alley - 6-1-2005 at 08:10 AM

new pic from Kira's site:

I sure don't see the hook and line guys getting these. Guess the divers can clean out the remaining big groupers. Including "pro" divers using the kills to promote a personal business bringing even more divers down.

These big fish are become rarities. There is a clear trend that they are disapearing. To see one, and deliberately kill it...Go dive somewhere else.

pascuale - 6-1-2005 at 08:26 AM

GTB, Black seabass used to be abundant in california but were almost wiped out in the 70's by freedivers like me and you because they didnt know the damage that they were causing, not because they were sitting on the bottom with tanks. Just like Black Seabass, grouper are not the hardest fish to shoot. Leapard grouper take off, but Gulfys just look at you. Saying that shooting grouper doesnt effect the population is BS. I have been fishing that area for a long time and have personally caught only a few of those fish. To say that its ok to shoot them and they are not endangered is pure arrogance and shows your knowledge. You went to shoot a world record Leapard grouper. My photo shows two world record leapard grouper in 1 day. Did I send anything in to get a world record? Nope, because im not spearing for word records and giant grouper. Keep it up man, I will keep protecting every area I can for as long as I can. I believe that most people when educated about the lifespan and rarety of those big grouper, will feel the same way.

[Edited on 6-1-2005 by pascuale]

Ken Bondy - 6-1-2005 at 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pascuale
Just like Black Seabass, grouper are not the hardest fish to shoot. Leapard grouper take off, but Gulfys just look at you.

They do more than just look at you. They are actually curious about you and what you are doing underwater. About 20 years ago I was on a liveaboard dive trip on the Baja Explorador, anchored at Isla Catalan. In the afternoon, Mike Mahlstad, the late Explorador divemaster, asked my daughter Coleen and me to accompany him to harvest some clams for the famous Explorador Clam Pizza. The three of us, Mike, Coleen, and I were kneeling on a sand bottom in 60fsw watching Mike fill a game bag with large "chocolates". I happened to look over my shoulder, directly into the face of a very large gulf grouper. The fish was bigger than me, about 5 ft long, and he/she must have weighed over 300 lbs. The animal was extremely curious about what we were doing, showed no fear, and stayed with us for at least 5 minutes until, anticipating no food, slowly moved away. If we had had an interest in killing that fish, to say it would have been easy would have been a gross understatement.

In the years I have been diving, I have watched the decline of black sea bass in Southern California waters and gulf grouper in the Sea of Cortez. As easy as shooting both species are, I have an impression that most of the take was on hook and line, and relatively few by spearfishing. That may not be true in So. California where I think spearfishing on scuba has always been legal, as opposed to Mexican waters where it is not legal. It is good to see black (and white) seabass making a comeback in Southern California where they are regularly seen now.

++Ken++

[Edited on 6-1-2005 by Ken Bondy]

Baja Grouper fish limit

Skipjack Joe - 6-1-2005 at 05:54 PM

Mexico's Baja Grouper fish limit = 5

The word limit (restriction) in this case is meaningless. Nothing is being limited. The daily restriction is greater than anything you could possibly encounter with a rod and reel in a month. PESCA is not managing these fish at all. ...not on their radar screen, I guess.

bajaden - 6-1-2005 at 07:33 PM

Wow! What a bunch of interesting posts. I learned more than I probably ever needed to know about Baja Grouper. Since Im new here and know nothing, this will attest to your persuasive abilities. As of now I tend to come down on the side of Joe, Jr, and Pascaule. I will say this however. I have never convinced anyone of anything by attacking them. They will immediately go on the defensive and attack back. I realize that some of you have very strong feelings about this subject and rightly so. The only advice I would give, is that it is better to recruit than to antagonize. By the way, I don't think the fish really cares whether the person who kills it is a Mexican or a Gringo.

Sharksbaja - 6-1-2005 at 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Mexico's Baja Grouper fish limit = 5

The word limit (restriction) in this case is meaningless. Nothing is being limited. The daily restriction is greater than anything you could possibly encounter with a rod and reel in a month. PESCA is not managing these fish at all. ...not on their radar screen, I guess.

And what exactly do they manage and how? Since the navy is in charge of enforcing fishing violations, I am curious as to thier presence or lack thereof. Especially in the Northern reaches of the Sea of Cortes where there is a considerably lower number of fish seeking people. Of course if the Nautical Ladder comes to fruition the problem will be exacerbated 100 fold.

I am aware of the focus on turtles, some sailfish and whales, but I am afraid for the most part that game fish and sharks take a back seat in importance and relevance.

pascuale - 6-1-2005 at 09:48 PM

Id have to agree with you bajaden. I do have strong feelings about this subject because I really want my children to experience what I have. I also agree in that it is better to recruit than attack, sorry for any attacks I may have made during this post, to GTB and anyone else. We all would like to see more fish right, and protectr the ones we have, but still kill a few here and there!

Shaksbaja

Skipjack Joe - 6-1-2005 at 10:40 PM

Quote:

I am aware of the focus on turtles, some sailfish and whales, but I am afraid for the most part that game fish and sharks take a back seat in importance and relevance.

Like yourself, I thought sharks were off the list - but they are regulated. Here's the list of targeted species:

Marlin, Sailfish, Swordfish and Shark - one per day
Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon - two per day

I don't know much about sharks. I even thought your quiz was too hard. But, somehow, someone has convinced someone that they need protection.

What's interesting about this list is that it seems to target the glamorous sportfish. Taken further, it seems that the fish tourists catch have a restriction on them. All others, fall into the general category of 5 per day.

My guess is that these fish limits are not based upon any calculations of fish stocks or any assessment or projection of how the fishing restrictions will affect them. They're simply based upon an outcry of the sportfishing industry that's concerned about losing it's customer base.

You're right Sharksbaja. Their department of fisheries is pretty pathetic. There's basically no management going on at all.

You almost can't blame the guys getting these monster groupers. You figure - if you're following regulations then what's the problem. You assume that the authorities in charge are providing guidance to maintain a fishery. After all, that's their job.

skipjack

[Edited on 6-2-2005 by Skipjack Joe]

No mo big ones where I grew up

Sharksbaja - 6-1-2005 at 11:14 PM

Bravo Karl! I grew up catching BIG calicos off P.V. where I grew up. Along with all the other awesome seafood I can remember giant Black abs Green abs, schools of big bass, gigantic bugs, huge rock scallops and halibut 50 yds offshore. YES! I remember. Sad, the last couple yrs I fished the same area in the late 80s and yielded nada. My hope is for recovery of the bait fish in So. Cal. and the predator fish returning. I have heard positive results are slowly being realized but 50 yrs of abuse and 30 yrs of recovery and I can say it will take decades more. A big fear shared amongst many of us is insatiable appetite of "The weekend warrior" of which I have seen plenty.

gonetobaja - 6-1-2005 at 11:40 PM

Well,

After reading all of this stuff I have come to my personal conclusion.

I am now going to impose a limit for my customers of only 1 Gulf grouper per 4 day trip instead of 2. It is on that list and although it says it is not endangered it is listed as a vuneralble species. The Leopoard grouper is also on the same list and has the same rating as the gulf grouper, however after swimming in a school of 60 or more about a week ago I have a really hard time agreeing with the list of fish on those ones. There are alot of fish on the vunerable fish list that dont seem very endangerd to me. But then again as it has been pointed out, I am not a scientest. I only know what I see under the water in the area Im at. I can tell you that it is going to cause some peeed off customers when we get into a school of fish and I tell them to only shoot one each even though they know that the limit is 5 per day. My self, I havent shot a Gulfy in over a year. I usualy shoot a couple of nice Leopard groupers just to show people that I acutally put them on the fish so they cant tell me "this spot sucks, theres no fish here...". It also helps when a customer scares all of his shots away and I can give him a couple of fillets for home.

I cant honestly say that I wont shoot them at all anymore. I cant lie about stuff just so everyone will think Im agreeable. Ill try and shoot more snapper. I dont really like yellowtail so much, but I can start to chase some of them. To be honest I see more grouper than Yellowtail. Maybe its just because Im spending more time looking for them.

No worries on anything Pascuale :spingrin:

, I always knew you where just protecting a great place and cool fish. People dont always agree on every point of every issue. Sorry about the momma joke too :smug:

. It was acutally my momma that was migrating because I found her beached in a cove just north of san ignacio

and had to give her a tow back to deep water. I told her, "Mom, you need to stay in deeper water!" she always embarasses me at the beach.... :mad:

BUT...

I still think that spearfishing is the best and most enviornmentaly friendly way to harvest selective fish from the ocean.

I still think that there are alot of grouper in my area but Im gonna hold off on shooting any mexican limits untill I hear some fishologist from a school tell me that a two fish per person limit is a sustainable harvest.(even though the current limit is 5).

I still think that there are alot of MAJOR reasons that the grouper population is other areas of baja have gotten smaller, and none of them are from freediver spearfishermen.

I will be leaving for Gonzaga Bay soon again for another trip. On this trip we will be bringing Scott Cassell. Scott is a naturalist and extreme conditions diver who is one of the only people to video the giant squid in the sea of cortez. He is going to be shooting only film with a sony high definition camera on a re-breather rig. Scott dosent eat fish. He has agreed to come along and document below the water our expedition and the reality of the undersea life at the Enchanted Islands. I am hoping to drop him into an area where I know big schools of Totuaba and Gulf grouper hang out and let him get some good footage.

I will post a report when we get back, I cant guarantee that we wont shoot any Gulf Grouper but I can tell you that we will have only two people hunting and wont shoot more than 2 in a 4 day period. Im sure we will see Leopard Grouper, and If I see a big one, hes gonna hit the bottom of my cooler.

Maybe I will go on a hunt for the world record triggerfish....

GTB
http://www.spearfishingvideos.com

Sharksbaja - 6-1-2005 at 11:57 PM

I tip my sombrero to you

I am quite impresssed with your(and others) willingness to offer not only an olive branch but also give back in a way that is material. It must be the Baja feeling. It appears from your posts that you visit and enjoy the prolific splendor that the "Sea" is offering up. A lucky soul indeed! You have shown a good example of ocean stewardship. Save the big ones. Thanx, Corky aka Sharksbaja

bajaden - 6-2-2005 at 12:08 AM

Now that I have traded in my rifle for a fishing pole, and at this point in time Im a better hunter than a fisherman, considering I have never fished in Baja except on a charter boat. I decided to apply the same rule to fishing that I used in hunting. I will never kill anything I won't eat, and I will never fish for anything that will eat me. After reading about the fish in Baja and discovering that most have teeth, I would say that the majority of fish have nothing to fear.
I have to admit that Im totaly ignorant of the mexican fishing regulations, and in time I'll learn. I don't know whats protected and whats not. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me. I do care.... I also know that good intentions don't always bring good results. I remember when there were few regulations on where you could hunt in California for deer and the seasons were long, and the deer were plentiful. Good intentioned people came along and changed all that. I won't bore you with the details, but I watched the deer herd slowly dwindle down to the point it broke my heart to shoot a deer for fear it might be the last one. When politicians make decisions on these kind of matters based on the influence of people with good intentions but little knowledge the results can be disastrous.

Gonetobaja

Skipjack Joe - 6-2-2005 at 12:53 AM

Wow, I am impressed.

Most people involved in an argument like this just dig in their heels, stop considering what the other is saying, and the verbal abuse just escalates. For you to actually listen and consider the other persons viewpoint and to actually be willing to change your business practices is really amazing. I really admire you. To have the maturity to not see this as winning or losing - well, that's rare and admirable.

You and Ken may be right about spearfishing affecting the fish stocks less the angling. It was never about angling vs spearfishing for me.

There were a few statements I made that were probably best not said and I wish to apologize for them. When you're not facing the person sometimes you allow yourself to say things that you wouldn't in real life.

I really avoid threads like this because it's rare that anything good comes from them. People involved remember the side you take, label you, and seem to form like-minded groups that always support one another. Oh.. you're a DK supporter. Or, Oh... you belong to the spearfishing group.

A couple of years ago Ken Bondy published on the Amigos board a family outing written by his daughter Coleen that was probably the best thing I had read on Baja. After reading that I decided that Ken was one of the 'good' guys. So I really didn't want to enter the argument on the opposite side and potentially destroy my idea of things.

Well, I for one, am relieved and happy that this thread ended as well it did.

daveB - 6-2-2005 at 01:21 AM

One of the saddest scenes I recall seeing in Mexico was the sight of a spearfisher on a nearly pristine coral beach marching out the water with a five foot eel.
We had done our daily snorkle around the bay for a month and were always ecstatic when we saw that fellow. Now taken, killed for sport, we'd miss him. Oh sure, from the mouth of his taker came the promise they would make a meal of him, not waste him. Great. What sort of trade-off was that? One meal against depriving hundreds of exciting discoveries visiting swimmers would have upon sighting him.
Not only that, but any male Mexican watching this prancing gringo emerging with such a treasure, well, you've heard of a gold rush?
Next day you had to swim around the Mexicans' set nets.

gonetobaja - 6-2-2005 at 08:37 AM

Thanks guys,

I have to admit it took me all day to come up with the decision I made. I can say in honesty that this new grouper take limit will be actually put in place on my trips.

I think the main thing is what sharksbaja said. If you really love (and live) in baja you really care about the area. After reading all of the posts my first thoughts where to dig in and fight but after I realized that there might be something to the argument for less Gulf Grouper take I knew that only an extreme marooon would turn a blind eye to the facts. I dont think that my limits will have much effect on changing things for Gulf Grouper but it cant hurt.

Im sorry to hear about the eel getting taken. Eels get eaten in baja also. Everything gets eaten in baja including snails. I have never taken an eel myself although I see them all of the time. I dont see any reason to shoot something just to say "Hey man Im tough I shot an eel!" Although I have been bothered by them many times freeing snapper from caves.

One of the saddest things I have ever seen in baja was a pile of hammerhead shark heads about 10 feet around by the dump by my house, and a pile of scallop shells about 6feet around on one of the islands. Or a seagull actually nesting in a washed up monofiliment net. I could go on but the point is whenever the resources of the ocean are wasted it sucks.....

GTB

good on ya Dale

capt. mike - 6-2-2005 at 09:26 AM

for a compromise. shows a higher esteem, how was your trip this past weekend? didn't see a report yet but always like to read 'em.

on june 18th weekend i will be using a singa poor sling to bag sheeps heads off isla santa ynez....can't wait.

ya all should read Jonathon Roland's baja back beat in this month's western outdoors mag....he tells it like it is......let the Mexican's work out there own issues.

Ken, remember

capt. mike - 6-2-2005 at 09:28 AM

all the big bass and grouper photos Genaro used to have in the old bar chamber before they took all that stuff down? they set some ptretty mean records out by isla Lorenzo,
used to meet a bunch of guys from Laguna Sea Sports who drove down for 3 weeks of that action.

oladulce - 6-2-2005 at 12:03 PM

Wow, Gone to baja.

I had actually stopped reading the series of posts because I thought it was heading for the usual downward spiral as emotions kicked in.

Your response and conclusion are not only refreshing, but brightened my day a little. And your comment about your Mom embarrassing you at the beach cracked me up.

Sharksbaja - 6-2-2005 at 12:40 PM

GTB, I also stumbled upon a pile of Hammerhead shark heads probably 4 ft high and 8 ft in diameter of juveniles 3-4 ft this year. A fresh pile, it was in Lover's Cove south of Mulege. The point here.... lack of direction and education promotes the continued extermination of many species. Thank god it hasn't happened(isn't happening) where you go. Hope you don't mind but I forwarded this thread to the Cousteau Foundation as an example of our(non-citizen) approach and willingness to ease the burden on the seas. Thanks again, Sharks

capt. mike

Ken Bondy - 6-2-2005 at 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
all the big bass and grouper photos Genaro used to have in the old bar chamber before they took all that stuff down? they set some ptretty mean records out by isla Lorenzo,
used to meet a bunch of guys from Laguna Sea Sports who drove down for 3 weeks of that action.

I do indeed. I also remember when you walked over to the small fisherman's cove (alongside the runway and then up over the hill) you would invariably come across some huge gulf grouper skulls. Lots of big fish taken from those waters around San Francisquito. I think I hooked a few big groupers but never managed to land one. We took our share of jurel though.
++Ken++

Ken Bondy - 6-5-2005 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
A couple of years ago Ken Bondy published on the Amigos board a family outing written by his daughter Coleen that was probably the best thing I had read on Baja. After reading that I decided that Ken was one of the 'good' guys. So I really didn't want to enter the argument on the opposite side and potentially destroy my idea of things.

Skipjack Joe: I was moved by your comment, sent it on to Coleen who I know will be too. I appreciate your nice words very much. I really didn't consider my post about the impact of spearfishing to be an "argument", it was just my opinion based on unscientific observations while diving (and fishing) in California and Mexico for more than 30 years. I realize that others have different opinions and their opinions may be better supported than mine. I sure agree, however, that these types of threads often degenerate quickly into personal attacks. I was extremely impressed and thankful that gonetobaja defused that so gracefully here. Regards,
++Ken++

Skipjack Joe - 6-5-2005 at 08:55 PM

Ken,

I remember the good ones and Coleen's really impressed me. After I wrote that I thought about it a little more and decided that perhaps women are just better writers. They just seem to notice the little things that guys just don't pay attention to. And it's the little things that add up and make a good big thing. Guys basically go from concentrating on one thing to concentrating on another thing. Women just take take it all in all the time. No analysis, just write it as you see it.

skipjack

gonetobaja - 6-6-2005 at 08:32 AM

Ken, and everyone...

Its great to know that people are happy with my decisions on my new Gulf Grouper limits.

My opinions are not supported by any scientefek faks. Thats why when faced with the research done and documented by others I am really left with two choices.

Truth, or ignorance.....

I dont know the statistics but I know when I fire my speargun the only thing that gets affected is the fish Im aiming for and nothing else, hence my scientefik resening fer speargun conservation.

Now most people who know me well know that I am not really smart enough to pull off lying. I also end up(because of my lack of skool) going straight to the momma jokes when I get attacked (ie. I seen yer momma diving deep just north of De La Guardia with a 6ft squid in her jaws...). I have been harvesting grouper in that area for a long time, the fish eating wont stop, however 1 Gulf grouper per customer I felt was not alot to ask of them. I have already gotten some e-mails from customers who have trips booked later this summer. Most who read this thread told me that they understand my reasoning, and agreed to the new take limit. Others said that I was bending over for the "PETA" types and I need to get a spine. This group then cancled the september trip they had in favor of a trip with another guide in La Paz who would be more lax on shooting Gulf Grouper(If they find em:lol

. The way I look at it is that I may loose a few customers however this type of personality is also the type that "knows it all", comes down with 6ft tuna guns to shoot snapper, and is the first one to complain about the conditions, "is it always this windy" "is it always this hot" "why is the vis so bad, in cozumel it is 100ft" etc. This new take limit might be a way of screening out the jerks before I end up in the middle of baja with em.

Leaving on the 12 with cameras and spearguns. Two shooters and two cameramen(Sony HI-def). Its gonna be some great footage.

The finished product should be in stores (sports chalet) by the fall.

Adios Nomads,
GTB
http://www.spearfishingvideos.com

Bajaddict - 6-23-2005 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
busybody gringos. If you have a problem with other peoples lives, why don't you try turning us "illegals" as you are assuming, into the authorities. I love the way they deal with false accusations down here! Pendejos!

"P-nche Gringos", "Chicken Coup Groupers", "Pendajos", "Idiots", etc... ad naseum... Didn't anyone ever tell you not to sh*t where you live? I would be suprised and amazed if someone didn't motion the Mexican authorities your way, if for no other reason than to get you to shut your hole. Maybe you will not enjoy it when you are carted back up here in the bad ol' USA.... assuming that your status here is on the up and up as well.

pangamadness - 6-24-2005 at 08:19 AM

Well put Bajaddict. The Mexican authorities will be there one day. It will be the day he looses one of his clients. Someone will try a little too hard to get a Grouper and will pass out. Probably be some guy with 2 kids and one on the way who takes a last minute opportunity to go on a trip with his buddies to see who can get the biggest fish. Or it will be a son showing off for his dad and tries a little too hard to get a big fish.

Here we go again

jrbaja - 6-24-2005 at 08:35 AM

some new P-nche gringo took offense because the huarache fit. As far as my own back yard, I don't know what you are referring to.
As far as minding your own business, it would probably be a good idea.
As far as the authorities go, give it your best shot pendejo!
And, as far as living back up there, there are way too many people like you running around which means that back yard is already full enough of it!
Trying to prove something by bringing up old posts? That's what the chicken coup groupers are famous for **********! :lol:

[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]

pascuale - 6-24-2005 at 09:33 AM

After meeting Jr in BajaSur, I dont think he'll have any problems from the authorities. He's on top of his game down there. As for GTB and the spearfishing operation, we'll....a guy who can take criticism and turn it into something positive such as limiting his grouper harvesting to one fish per trip, we'll I think a guy with charachter like that wont have too many problems anywhere he goes.

gonetobaja - 6-24-2005 at 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pangamadness
Well put Bajaddict. The Mexican authorities will be there one day. It will be the day he looses one of his clients. Someone will try a little too hard to get a Grouper and will pass out. Probably be some guy with 2 kids and one on the way who takes a last minute opportunity to go on a trip with his buddies to see who can get the biggest fish. Or it will be a son showing off for his dad and tries a little too hard to get a big fish.

You are implying that I will eventually be responsible of the death of one of my customers and then the mexican authorities will be there to teach me a lesson? The worst case possible with 2 kids and one on the way? You have some imagination. I dive safe and make my customers do the same. I am responsible and take saftey seriously. If someone dies from an accident than I will feel awfull but I will know it will have nothing to do with me. I am also a certified rescue diver for my customers saftey and carry a full med kit with a pony tank and regulator for use in case of such an emergency.

I have had people asking around that they heard of a gringo working out of Puertecitos with no papers. The funny thing is that it was my mexican friends that told me that the gavachos where asking alot of questions about me and they where wondering why after all of this time. :lol:

I dont know why people are so concerned, I bring nothing but work and good vibes to my area of baja. I provide for hotels and resturants, builders and mechanics, stores and shops, all from my stream of tourists that I bring in and out.

BUT TO PUT TO REST ALL OF THESE ACCUSATIONS!!!!!!!!!

My Cedula De Identificacion Fiscal # is
RUCN800906K52 Folio C 4763009
Lancha Nombre "Sancha"

So any of you uh, "nice people" that seem to know so much about this kinda stuff can take this info and do your own research. And when you get your paws on copies of my paperwork you can "djlsour up your oajfsasjfs..." :smug:

I wasnt going to put my info up because I feel that people are just jumping to conclusions about me and JR. I dont know why people automaticaly assume that people are out to do "no good" and to "screw" the mexican government but there are alot of things I "dont know"

Right on Pascuale, only 1 Gulfy on the last trip. I know im gonna run into you sooner or later.

By the way I am heading down on the 12th again with a cameraman and two customers (again) and will post another trip report.

People need to worry about having fun in Baja and getting their heartrate down to 50beats per minute. Its been proven by years of research(mine) that pacifico tastes better when your heartrate is down. :biggrin:

Let the mexican authorities do their job and dont waste your time worring if some guy in baja has his paperwork straight, its just not worth your time.....

GTB
http://www.spearfishingvideos.com
(check out our new trailer preview, needs quicktime)

I know why GTB

jrbaja - 6-24-2005 at 05:53 PM

Because P-nche gringos just have to stick their noses in other peoples business as they don't have lives of their own!
As far as my information goes, I have it for anyone important enough to show it to.
But, as far as washing your FM3, DON'T !! I spent yesterday getting it replaced at the new immigration office here in Rosarito. :no:

New P-nche gringo??

Bajaddict - 6-24-2005 at 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
some new P-nche gringo took offense because the huarache fit. As far as my own back yard, I don't know what you are referring to.
As far as minding your own business, it would probably be a good idea.
As far as the authorities go, give it your best shot pendejo!
And, as far as living back up there, there are way too many people like you running around which means that back yard is already full enough of it!
Trying to prove something by bringing up old posts? That's what the chicken coup groupers are famous for cluckhead! :lol:

As you seem to put much value on the amount of time that a person has attached himself to this board, you may want to check my registration date.... Junior. Of course I have no where near the number of posts that you have racked up, perhaps you can retain some validation of your superiority in that fact.

I am going to save any further discourse with you until the time comes that we might meet in person..... I'd really enjoy that. I'll recommend that you refrain from further insults, as I will be asking you to repeat them to my face if and when that happy time should come.

*********************************************
*********************************************

[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]

pascuale - 6-24-2005 at 08:12 PM

Your gonna have to get past me and my case of empty pacificos first baja addict. :lol:

Bajaddict - 6-24-2005 at 11:12 PM

Quote:

Pangamadness, you are quoting me in the wrong context. My post had nothing to do with GTB's up and up business and estimable character, or JR's questionable status. Personally, I could hardly give a rat's arse what folks are up to, as long as it does not affect me or mine....

My problem comes with those who's mouths seem to spout a solid stream of BS, and who lack the cajones to back it anywhere except from behind the keyboard.

I do not give or take insults lightly... but hey, I am funny that way!

bajaden - 6-25-2005 at 06:39 PM

Ahh, probably that hired thug Jr. Just kidding Bajaddict, no offense intended. Id really rather just buy everyone a cervesa. Maybe we could all just take a ride on its a small world in disneyland. There's no better way to relieve your frustrations. Come on guys, can't we all just get along. Those were Gereral Custers last words, by the way.

It is better to appear stupid, than to open ones mouth and confirm it.