The letter:
-------------------------------
This is an open letter to anyone racing in SCORE Series races in Baja California as a warning. The issue deals with prerunners going the opposite
direction of the precribed race course. Despite warnings on SCORE's website about this very dangerous practice and horror stories that go back for
years about it, irresponsible individuals continue to do it and I am extremely lucky to be alive to tell about my own personal incident. What's worse,
I did not take immediate legal action against the individual involved and he is now gloating in how he got away with it.
I have been racing SCORE professional motorcycle classes since 1999. I ride extensively in Baja California and the usual Mexican surprises such as
wandering livestock, farmers headed to town, unknown drop-offs, and a few other Baja-unique events are familiar. A Class 1 prerunner going in the
opposite direction at speed is not.
On Friday May 27, I was prerunning the Baja 500 racecourse from Ojos Negros to Uruapan. This was my second pre-run of the day, since I had done it
earlier and returned to Ensenada from Uruapan. When I reached Tres Hermanos, I was stopped by a group who inquired if I had seen a prerunner and to
"be on the lookout for him." This is a common question with prerunners as we all see prerunners here and there on the race course. What this group did
NOT tell me was this prerunner was coming the opposite direction from Uruapan. Maybe they did not know. At approx Race Mile 55-60, west of Tres
Hermanos and on my way to Uruapan, I was struck head-on by this prerunner on a blind corner. I did not have time to react to the oncoming buggy and I
knew that my worst nightmare was about to happen. The exact details of the collision are hazy but what I do remember is the sound of the incredible
impact as I was struck, the prerunner rolling over my lower body and the hot engine burning my back when the buggy and I came to a standstill as I was
stuck underneath. I thought the worst as a I lay there on the ground on the middle of Baja in excruciating pain. As I came to my senses and realized I
was alive I couldn?t stop thinking about what I would do if I could never walk again. In pain, I proceeded to assess my injuries as the useless diver
of the prerunner stood over me in shock. My first thought was that my legs and hip were broken and that I may be bleeding internally. The driver?s
co-driver did as much as he could to comfort me and he instructed the driver to seek help.
Soon after a group of prerunners came to my to see what they could do to help. They loaded me and my bike onto their prerunners so that they could
drive me off the coarse and get me into a truck so that I could get back Ensenada for medical assistance. I am extremely grateful to the guys at KIT
Racing who were nearby and willing to help.
My brother was also prerunning that day from Uruapan to Llano Colorado and was expected back at our motel. I was able to stand and walk with
assistance and decided to wait for my brother to take me to a San Diego hospital. Amazingly, when we got to the ER at Scripps Memorial Hospital,
x-rays and CAT scan showed no broken bones nor any internal injuries. I have no one to thank but God Almighty. The bruising set in and my legs, hips
and torso were soon jet black and swelled so much that I went up two pant seizes. A hematoma in one of my legs required draining of blood and fluid
every 2 days.
The driver of the prerunner only left me his first name, cell phone number and e-mail address. Believe me, if I was not in pain or shock and could
think coherently, I would not have let him leave until I got every available information on him and the prerun vehicle. I realized the danger of
prerunning by myself as no one was going to look after my best interests until my brother's arrival. I telephoned my race teammates the next day, who
in turn phoned Sal Fish at SCORE. Sal was extremely concerned about the incident and took whatever information he could. Unfortunately, Sal found out
that the individual's team "affiliation" was bogus and the guy was not even entered in the Baja 500.
I was able to come down for the Baja 500 and I appreciate Sal recognizing me at the Driver/Rider's meeting the night before the race at the Riviera
Convention Center. I then talked to Factory KTM rider Andy Grider, who said that he also almost had a head on collision with the same buggy only
moments before my accident. Andy stated to me he yelled at them not to be going the opposite direction of the race course and the driver acknowledged
him by giving him the ?bird?.
I then began the long process of trying to track this guy down so that I could be compensated in some way for the damages he caused as a result of his
reckless and negligent behavior. The name that I got was Greg, that?s it. I paid my own medical expanses, lost time from work and lost all money that
I invested in for the race. The compensation I asked from Greg was only for damages to my bike to be repaired or replaced. He avoided my phone calls
and e-mails. Two weeks after the race, he responded in an e-mail saying that I "was partially at fault and he would not assume full responsibility." I
WAS SHOCKED! I was almost killed, my bike was snapped in half with $4600 worth of damage and the opportunity to race was taken from me by Greg. He
stated that he would pay me what he thought was fair ($1500), take it or leave it! I insisted on him paying the $4600 bill for my bike, nothing else.
He refused. He won't even tell me WHY he was going the wrong way on the course, his last name, or who owns the prerunner.
CONCLUSION: Fellow racers, some idiot will always think he is better than the system and pull a stunt like this. Be very careful on your future Baja
preruns as "Greg" is out there waiting for you. Being evasive and elusive just adds to not owning up to his responsibilities.
For the driver of the prerunner, GREG WIRKUS., also known as "Flipper" from San Diego: You are hardly an excuse for a "man." Enjoy your reckless
lifestyle. You have made my life a living hell.
Carlos Molina
San Diego, CA
GREGORY VINCENT WIRKUS
DOB 5/8/59 AGE 46
1794 E WESTINGHOUSE ST
SAN DIEGO, CA 92111
HOME PH 858 279-2943
CELL PH: 858 401-3504
E-mail: Gvw58@aol.com
[Edited on 6-29-2005 by Baja Blackie]TMW - 6-29-2005 at 05:09 PM
What an idiot. This guy was prerunning and should have known better. Now he won't take responsibility for his actions. I hope the team he was helping
gives him the boot and no other will take him on. Both men are very very lucky. The MC rider for not getting killed and the pre-runner driver for not
doing the killing.Baja Angel - 6-29-2005 at 05:34 PM
Oh my gosh!!!!! This idiot needs to be tracked down and taught a lesson in proper behavior
Its amazing how stupid people can be sometimes as if everything is all about 'them'.
Thanks to the good man above that your ok... your bike is replaceable but your life isn't. PJC - 6-29-2005 at 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by TW
What an idiot. This guy was prerunning and should have known better. Now he won't take responsibility for his actions. I hope the team he was helping
gives him the boot and no other will take him on. Both men are very very lucky. The MC rider for not getting killed and the pre-runner driver for not
doing the killing.
Exactly TW...
And believe it or not, there are a few from the Flat Bill crowd that think Sal Fish is to blame.. Unfrickenbelievable!tunaeater - 6-30-2005 at 10:00 AM
TW
This happened I believe the day that you and I preran from VDT to K 78. Remember Seve, blue tundra that meet us there after the prerun. I was in
complete shock when Seve told me about this that day. It was good to see Carlos at the 500 up and walking around. He was in great spirits after all
that happened. Carlos is a great guy and this is very unfortunate for him. He had tire tracks running across his body. Even more unfortunate is that
this guy that ran him over insults him by making an offer of $1,500. Like Carlos wrote in his letter the only one that saved him was God Almighty and
like TW said they are both very very lucky. Things could of easily gone for the worse. Carlos isn't even asking for medical assistance all he wants is
compensation for his motorcycle. This guy Greg/Flipper needs to pay his dues and get on with it.thebajarunner - 6-30-2005 at 05:46 PM
Wrong way idiots have no place on the course, or even in Baja!
Years back, we were pre-running in the pine forest, slid around a corner at full chat and tore the back fender and bumper (plus some other stuff) off
a Baja Bug idiot, going the wrong way.
Fortunately we were driving our pickup, and had a bar on the front.
Well, fortunately for us, and well deserved for Mr. Idiot.
We made sure that he was not personally injured, then drove off and left him.
And, who can forget the really dumb, really really dumb bike rider that was riding backwards on the course when Parnelli rumbled up and put him away!!
Sorry that your moto was not a 4/4 with a really big bar on the front.
Baja Arriba!!Mike Supino - 6-30-2005 at 06:20 PM
I believe that it is time to "get a grip".
Pre-running is just that. Not driving at break-neck speeds.
The pre-runner could have just as well been a farmer's pick-up with a few cattle in the back.(Try to get compensation from the farmer)
There is only one side of the story, so far.
It would seem that the pre-runner driver should have been more compassionate and more generous financially to Mr. Molina.
Even DURING a race more caution needs to be exercised by all.surfer jim - 6-30-2005 at 07:57 PM
Sad story but you take your chances on these things....these roads are OPEN to EVERYONE ....going whatever direction they want ....until race day....David K - 6-30-2005 at 08:20 PM
Mike and Jim, you both speak the truth here... these are access roads for all to use, and only on the race day is it approved for racing on.
However, those that come to Baja only to take advantage of the great terrain a couple times a year... and may come (perhaps weeks) before the race,
think it is their land to play on and to Hell with anyone else that may want to use that road, are the rude ones... and maybe the dangerous element,
afterall?
One can 'read' the road at normal speeds and save the 80 mph+ driving for race day (specially on blind curves), right?
On the surface, I read this and (as a former SCORE member/racer) sided with the m/c rider... and feel really bummed he lost so much, and the chance to
race the Baja.
But, if one looks at this from an independent angle, you might see it this way:
The m/c rider sounds like he expected that road to be clear of all traffic for his personal use, and we would never have heard of this accident if it
was a local truck full of chickens he plowed into.
However, because he had a head on with a fellow 'pre-runner' (entrant or not), going the 'wrong way' (only wrong on race day), we hear about it.
Being able to see both sides of this situation one might change thinking where the responsibility lies... ??? Posible, no?
Food for thought... thebajarunner - 6-30-2005 at 10:24 PM
David, pre-running always was, and always will be, very dangerous.
Having said that, it is a part of the racing package, if you don't pre-run, you don't succeed.
And, I am not sure what you are saying about pre-run speeds, but running at slow speeds is generally not very productive. What is mellow at moderate,
is possibly ugly at speed, and that is essential knowledge in the race.
My great concern is for the locals... they live there, they have to cope with all of our nonsense.
But, having said that, there is absolutely no excuse for either racers or 'wannabies' to be running backwards on course during the days before the
event.
It is surely a dilemma, one that will exist as long as these events continue.
(and with 350,000 visitors to Baja for the sole purpose of seeing the event, they surely will continue)
Baja Arriba!!David K - 6-30-2005 at 10:31 PM
Yes, I agree with you that if all pre-runners went the correct direction then this would not have happened.
I guess the guy in the buggy could not even be considered a pre-runner, since the race did not run that direction!?!Calexicocarrera - 7-11-2005 at 09:17 AM
There is always more than one side to a story folks (from race-dezert.com)...
--------------------------
Michael Pfankuch wrote:
Steve,
My name is Mike, I am the person from KIT Racing you need to talk to, as I
was the person that stopped Carlos at the Y-crossing...
The KIT race team was all together and stoped at the Y when I stopped
Carlos, and told him that a person that was with our group was somewhere
ahead, and that I tried to contact him by radio and let him know of our
whereabouts without any answer.
I asked Carlos to "keep his eye out for this buggy and let him know where we
were at" if he saw him..
About 5 min later Greg drove up to us and said he hit a motorcycle about 2
miles down the road.
Our Group of about 4 buggy's went to the scene to discover a rider down and
hurt...
our group then took Carlos back to Ojos to get him to a hospital. Some of us
loaded his bike on the roof of our buggy to get it out for him...
Greg is not affiliated with KIT race team. He was a friend of a person in
our group and asked if he could tag along with us.
I am very sorry that Carlos was hurt, and am glad he will get better soon...
However because KIT race team came to his rescue and transported him and his
bike back to Ojos, and had Greg take him to the hospital, KIT is getting
blamed for this mishap..
I don' think this is right, as KIT race team has always stoped to helped a
fellow racer in need..and would like to continue to do so..
Thanks,Mike
Here'z what Dietrich (Wirkus' codog) said:
WE SAT AND HAD A FEW BEERS THURSDAY
The K.I.T. guys were supporting Adam Pf's prerun and were waiting at the
Ojos Hwy 3 crossing area.
They decided to drive several buggies south on the course and meet him.
It was late in the day
Greg tore off, passing everyone, running "90".
They were NOT wearing helmets so DD insisted that they slow down.
The other cars stopped at the cattle guard on the hill but Greg, in the
front, blew on south, past the "Tres Hermanos" "Y, toward Uruapan.
The K.I.T. guys told Carlos of the car that had blown the stop and that it
would be coming back and warned him "Not to go" until the car came back AND
that Adam would be (ethically) coming in on the "in-and-out" section.
He did not remain there.
Greg & DD turned around and headed north at "25" mph.
Greg & DD heard no radio warnings - due to the deep arroyos?
The KTM came over a blind rise, Greg swerved to his right, the bike swerve
to THE RIDER'S LEFT = BANG!
It was pointed out that ALL Mexican roads are ALWAYS open!
"Expect the unexpected!"
(DD said that flipping off ANYONE was "Total bullmierda!")
------------------------------
I (Ramsey) had a chance to talk to Greg Wirkus over the phone and asked him several questions that I thought he should respond to. I feel that the
Race-DeZert community deserves to hear his account and that he deserves the right to respond to Carlos Molina?s public letter and all of the
accusatory posts that followed. I should state that I only know Greg very casually through mutual friends and his work in the Off-road industry. I do
know the individual that was riding in Greg?s prerunner; he is a veteran off-road racer, attorney, and straight shooter with no reason to give
anything but an honest account as he remembers it. I ran these questions and responses by the co-driver and the comments he had in relationship to
them is in italics. Greg is not a member of the Race-DeZert community and can not post directly. If you have seen my other posts related to this
accident, you will understand my feeling that ?perception is reality.? Carlos? perception is his reality and below is Greg?s; the truth is somewhere
in between.
Ramsey: Greg, did you read the letter from Carlos Molina on Race-DeZert?
Greg: Yes, my friends told me about it and I read it fully.
Ramsey: Were you surprised to see it published?
Greg: No, I believed that Steve Burgeois (sp?) the team manger for DP Racing had been threatening to go public if I didn?t do what they wanted. Steve
is the one pushing the issue in my mind.
Ramsey: Were you involved in the accident with Carlos while prerunning near Tres Hermanos?
Greg: Yes, he ran into my car at speed when I was on the right side of the road.
Ramsey: Were you driving against the prescribed course direction at the time?
Greg: Yes, that is a true statement. That is not disputed.
Ramsey: Why were you going against the prescribed course direction?
Greg: I had made a wrong turn at an unmarked road crossing and lost track on our friends. I was going back to look for them.
Ramsey: How fast were you driving?
Greg: I was driving 10 to 15 mph cautiously hugging the right side of the road where visibility was limited. We saw another bike (possibly Andy
Ginder) in a wide, open area and I waved at him. Obviously he was upset with me for going backwards, but I did not flip him off, I waved at him
acknowledging his frustration, we were thirty feet apart and he was in no danger whatsoever.
Ramsey: Do you regret driving against traffic, or do you think it was okay to do?
Greg: It wasn?t an option to continue on to Urapan, back to Ensenada and then back to Tres Hermanos because I had missed a turn a mile or so back.
Driving cautiously retracing my steps seamed like the right thing to do. Anyone who thinks that I was prerunning at speed against traffic with total
disregard is sadly mistaken.
Ramsey: Do you feel the accident was your fault?
Greg: I believe it was a 50/50 fault situation. On any dirt road, Mexico, Barstow, Glamis or wherever you always have to be careful around blind
corners or rises. I was driving slowly and carefully, he ran in to me at speed. He had been warned just a few minutes earlier that I was there.
Ramsey: How fast was he going?
Greg: Carlos said he was in third gear. He was on the wrong side of the road, going too fast.
Ramsey: What happened when you collided?
Greg: The motorcycle hit the passenger side front wheel and A-arms, and Carlos went over the front tire. I may have started to backup, not sure what
to do, but he was not under the hot motor as reported, he was between the passenger side tires and under the middle of the car. We did not have to
move the car to help him.
Ramsey: What did you do to help him?
Greg: I moved the bike to the side of the road. My co-driver stayed to comfort him and I drove back to get help.
Ramsey: Did he say anything to you?
Greg: He said, ?You are that buggy that they warned me about. I didn?t think you would be going backwards. They said you would be down the track.?
Ramsey: So you went for help. What happened next?
Greg: I found the KIT Racing group and some of them went to get Carlos and I stayed with the others to warn any other prerunners that might come
through. We all went back to Ojos Negros and I and another friend took Carlos and his bike back to Ensenada in my truck. We took him to his Hotel; he
didn?t want to go to the hospital.
Ramsey: Carlos? letter makes it sound like you did nothing to help him.
Greg: I know, I know. I don?t know why.
Ramsey: He also said he had a hard time contacting you.
Greg: I gave him a card where he could reach me at work. He called me there, Tuesday afternoon, May 31st a few days after the accident. I gave him my
cell phone number and email address. On June 2nd Carlos sent me an email telling me that he felt I was fully responsible for that accident and that I
should pay for all the damages to his bike. At first he wanted something like $3,200.00 for the damage and that grew to $4,600.00.
Ramsey: How did you come to the $1,500.00 that you gave him?
Greg: I looked in the Cycle Trader and found five of the same bikes for sale in the $3,000.00 range and feeling that he was also at fault, I split the
amount. An insurance company would only give you fair market value, why should I pay more.
Ramsey: Did he agree to the $1,500.00?
Greg: Yes. He said ?That was all that was available to him at that time.? I said, so this is a done deal? And he said ?yes.?
Ramsey: Did you shake hands?
Greg: Yes, we shook hand on it and went our way.
Ramsey: Is there anything that you would like to say to Carlos and the Desert Racing community?
Greg: (pause) I guess I?ll say that I truly regret this whole thing and we should all learn from this. It was an accident, I admit my responsibility,
Carlos needs to accept his.
Co-drivers comments to above:
I find the statement to be fairly within my recollection. However, I don't know intent of the meaning "at speed". I would say that the motorcycle was
going slightly faster than the car. But it certainly was not going at a high rate of speed. What I did not understand was why Carlos swerved to his
left when he became aware of the buggy. American instinct would be to swerve to the right. Had Carlos done so, there would not have been a collision.
When Greg became aware of Carlos' presence, he swerved all the way to his right side of the road. Carlos crossed over in front of the buggy and struck
the right front of the buggy.thebajarunner - 7-11-2005 at 10:44 AM
I have not raced in 20 years, but I still know "dumb" when I see/hear it!
And, backwards on course, during race month is
DUMB!!!
wirkus effffed up largely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
capt. mike - 7-11-2005 at 06:55 PM
and needs to pay Carlos big time...................of course he won't....................what a piker...................:moon:
Wow...this could'a been really nasty...
Mexray - 7-11-2005 at 08:21 PM
Quote:
Sad story but you take your chances on these things....these roads are OPEN to EVERYONE ....going whatever direction they want ....until race day....
If what Surfer Jim has said above is the case, it seems like the intended 'race' track would be open to anyone, anytime. As such, anyone traveling
this 'track', seeing the course markers, would be doing so at his own risk.
I would think most prerunners wouldn't 'expect' to see another 'prerunner' like vehicle (racer or not) going 'upstream', coming toward him...however,
knowing the 'track' is open to anyone before race day, wouldn't a prerunner have this in the back of his mind when rounding blind sections???
I have to ask if Carlos would have run into Greg's buggy, had Greg been facing the 'right' (downstream) way, but stopped on the track on the same side
of the road as where the collusion occurred???
Would Carlos have collided with a local in his pickup driving 'upstream', in the middle of the dirt track as most locals do on Baja roads??? Would
this local have been 100% at fault? 50% at fault??? 0% at fault???
In any event, it seems the tales on both sides of this incident are interesting to read and comment about, but it appears the direct parties involved
have worked out their differences, and concluded the event with a 'hand shake' - I think a credit to them both.
While it seems Carlos felt his losses were greater than the settlement Greg offered...lets not forget Carlos was prerunning at his own risk...and it
was a situation of who ran into whom (forget the upstream/downstream stuff, for the moment)...was Greg offered any relief for the damage to his buggy?
Would Carlos have asked for damages to his bike if he had 'clipped' Greg's buggy while passing, both going downstream?
Much more damage could have been done, but it looks as if those nearby at the time, stepped up to help all they could - what more could one want in
such a time of need???
I personally believe that if the race track is not really a 'race course' till race day, prerunners should beware that danger is just around every
blind curve...and isn't that really the lesson to be learned by discussing it here and other appropriate boards?
Thank god Carlos wasn't badly hurt - and will have the story to tell for years to come!
[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Mexray]Sharksbaja - 7-11-2005 at 08:41 PM
Who and what are they spray-painting?
Don't say a "rock" either
[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Sharksbaja]
WTF?
mexicali - 7-12-2005 at 07:30 AM
What a bunch of crapola, who is ramsey trying to be, matt lauer, bob costas?
None of that bullchit changes anything, no body should be going backwards period. If you do and cause an accident, you better have lots of cash and
you better not kill anybody.PJC - 7-12-2005 at 09:06 AM
So CalexicoCarrera, can we come to your big party on September 29th?PJC - 7-12-2005 at 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by mexicali
None of that bullsh-t changes anything, no body should be going backwards period. If you do and cause an accident, you better have lots of cash and
you better not kill anybody.
I have also heard that Wirkus was in a lawsuit for an accident at Ocotillo Wells where the judgement was against him for big cash. Seems to be a
pattern here.
[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Baja Blackie]thebajarunner - 7-12-2005 at 09:33 AM
I guess that is why he takes an attorney along as co-rider.....thebajarunner - 7-12-2005 at 10:52 AM
JR, that foto needs to go to:
1. Sal Fish
2. BFG corporate
3. Mexican (Baja) tourism commission
Time to put a stop to that kind of stuff
(and remember, I am a long-time racer)
After the F-1 fiasco at Indy by Michelin you would think that the tire companies needed a break from stupidity, doesn't look like that is happening
any time soon.
YUCK!!Sharksbaja - 7-12-2005 at 11:53 AM
JR, that really peees me off. I think I'll send their management a nice letter explaining how important it is not to have me send it to the news
anchor person I might know at a major TV network. It' s called name-dropping and BFG would be wise to make temporary signs(they will, you watch) and
to sand-blast off their past graffiti.
Have any more??Sharksbaja - 7-12-2005 at 03:00 PM
Do you have one with a license plate showing. If you can post or email me a couple of goodies I' ll forward with an explanation?? Who,where,when,why..
I doubt it would have a whole lot of impact on some considering who is doing the painting for who.David K - 7-12-2005 at 04:08 PM
All grafitti is bad... You caught one example of gringo grafitti being applied (and I hate to see any grafitti)... this is about 5% of the grafitti
along Mex. 1... Do you have photos any of the other 95% (Spanish language) culprets?TMW - 7-12-2005 at 05:48 PM
I'll pass the pix on to Bob Bower and see what he says or maybe he can pass it on to higher ups in BFG.
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought BFG only put up pre-made signs along the course if any at all. Their rig is kind of hard to miss. I would like to think
the guys in the pix were new crew members and did a stupid thing and not the norm. People need to be educated to not do these things and to pick up
after themselves and sometimes others too.Me No - 7-12-2005 at 05:53 PM
JR. Please don't steal this thread. the graffiti sucks, but Carlos didn't do it. Carlos is a great guy and, I am proud to say, a friend of mine. I
have seen his injuries, not pretty I can assure you.
Ultimately, I have to agree with the position that roads are open in baja to the baja people. However. Its not like someone comes by the local
rancho to tell them to evacuate, even though this is an event that is put on with the full support of the government.
Flipper, was a person that was aware of the race, and infact was there in some sort of support role that still has not been explained. That doesn't
matter either, here is what does.
One person had a vehicular accident with another person on a road in baja. That needs to be reported. If you crash into someone in Mexico, your
fault or not, you need to report it. Lack of reporting, pretty much constitutes guilt in per the Nepolionic code. Think guilty until proved
innocent.
The great thing is that Carlos has several confessions, and will be OK.
[Edited on 7-13-2005 by Me No]
You're right MeNo
jrbaja - 7-12-2005 at 06:10 PM
Doug, can the two subjects be separated?Sharksbaja - 7-12-2005 at 06:22 PM
Obviously had an unwitting, unknowing traveler been involved it would have been deemed a no-fault accident. But a person who knowingly went against
race traffic has little argument I'm afraid.Me No - 7-12-2005 at 06:24 PM
Start a new thread and copy and paste your responses here to it, then delete the ones here.
I will be the first one on your side of the graffiti issue.David K - 7-12-2005 at 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by jrbaja
But how would you feel traveling through Yosemite seeing Baja Cactus or Pemex painted on the rocks?
Fortunately, these businesses have enough respect/class to not stoop to this juvenile behaviour. I would expect the same from someone as well known
as BFG. And I even use their tires.
I did show a lot of pictures of graffitti in a lot of places including Catavi?a to PROFEPA David. I haven't shown them these photos yet.
How do you think they would feel, Chewy and Lisa graffitti who happen to live in Baja or a huge gringo corporation pulling the same crap.
Perhaps the gringos couldn't afford plastic signs?
Are you saying that because someone else did it, it's ok for the foreigners? What exactly are you trying to say before I get mad again?
>>>> NO JR, just what I said... and not what you think I mean...
Here's a summary of what I said, and they are my thoughts on the post:
1) ALL Grafitti is BAD.
2) With the great majority of grafitti applied by Mexicans, why post only a photo of gringos painting a boulder (if you have photos of Mexicans also
painting).
3) Perhaps showing the authorities only the gringos painting the rock, it would actually have LESS of an impact... as the government seems to look the
other way when their financial interests are at stake.... The gringo tourists and SCORE folks bring so much MONEY to Mexico... they know.
4) I would show 10 photos of grafitti painters... 9 Mexicans and the last one the SCORE related one... That is because over 90% of the grafitti is of
Mexican origin (IMO), and that could be what made the BFG guys think it was okay if they just painted one boulder. (still stupid on their part)
5) It will be easier for the government to go after (or educate) their own citizens than to find foreignors, the vast majority of whom DO NOT paint
grafitti in Mexico.
Is this perhaps a new way to think of this solution?
Good grief Charlie Brown!
Sharksbaja - 7-12-2005 at 07:01 PM
Does this pic of a high profile team member defacing a big rock to display simple directions somehow bother you? I believe it underscores(pun) the
image gringos set and how they behave as guests. To me it shows a lack of respect. If it were two Mexicans I would still be upset. If you stop and
think about it for a minute you realize that everyone who passes that rock will know some p*nce gringo created it. Not a good example.Sharksbaja - 7-12-2005 at 07:03 PM
Sorry Me No, I'll move my post over if JR will start a new thread, otherwise I'll stay on-topic. SharksDebra - 7-12-2005 at 07:13 PM
And to think we all hike miles (in great heat) to see those dang Mexican's (well, really Native American) graffiti.
Really, I hate to see MY "boulder forest" (Cativina) painted up like it is, but, I don't see the Mexicans doing it, it looks like English to me.
BTW, nice to see that JR and DK have "kissed and made up" I was about to call in 'ol Skeeter to take the both of you behind the wood shed!David K - 7-12-2005 at 07:15 PM
As I said (more than once): all grafitti is bad...
I can tell you where to find more stupid gringo grafitti (painted by the SCORE crowd! Take the original Baja main road south from La Virgen to
Catavina (it joins Mex. 1 just north of the Cave art parking area, 2+ mi. north of Catavina). As you are winding through the beautiful boulders some
pin head made a comment to Sal Fish on the boulders... I am embarassed that Americans would do such an outdated thing in a beautiful place, as guests
in another country.
I am also sad that (some) Mexicans still seems to think leaving trash at their beach camps and taking the family to the boulders with spray paint to
legacy their trip is somehow okay... But, it is their country...
[Edited on 7-13-2005 by David K]Debra - 7-12-2005 at 08:31 PM
Well, thank you MeNo.....at least you didn't curse at me.
And BTW it's "You're just an idiot"
[Edited on 7-13-2005 by Debra]PJC - 7-13-2005 at 09:50 AM
So DK are you dissing all racers with this comment?
Quote:
However, those that come to Baja only to take advantage of the great terrain a couple times a year... and may come (perhaps weeks) before the race,
think it is their land to play on and to Hell with anyone else that may want to use that road, are the rude ones... and maybe the dangerous element,
afterall?
Then you go on with...
Quote:
However, because he had a head on with a fellow 'pre-runner' (entrant or not), going the 'wrong way' (only wrong on race day), we hear about it.
Being able to see both sides of this situation one might change thinking where the responsibility lies... ??? Posible, no?
What are you saying/ Or, are you just typing for further "DK promotion?"
Then you say this...
Quote:
I guess the guy in the buggy could not even be considered a pre-runner, since the race did not run that direction!?!
Just what in the eff is your position on this?
[Edited on 7-13-2005 by Baja Blackie]David K - 7-13-2005 at 06:08 PM
Instead of breaking up my post into three partial bites, just read the entire post together, and think about how it might be considered by others less
biassed than you.
If the m/c pre-runner slammed into a local truck hauling chickens to the market (pre-running, not on race day), would you demand the chicken farmer
pay the m/c rider $4,000+? I am seeing if you can look at this in legal responsible terms, not as a friend to Carlos or off road racing.
Pre-running is not racing and those dirt roads are their for anybody who wants to or needs to drive on them... On race day is when they are designated
for the sport, but to expect those roads to be yours for your fun for a month before the race and all others better stay off, is just plain silly. In
reading the buggy driver's side of the story, the fact he offered as much as he did shows how bad he fealt for Carlos, but it was an accident and if
Carlos had veered to the right (as is the normal side of the road for North America to pass oncoming traffic), then it sounds as if there would have
been no collision!
Oh, and there is no promotion of 'me' when I post here... I don't sell anything... Like you, I am just contributing, so take it or leave it, ok?PJC - 7-14-2005 at 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Instead of breaking up my post into three partial bites, just read the entire post together, and think about how it might be considered by others less
biassed than you.
You consider anyone that asks you a questions or does not provide immediate "DK accolades" as biased.
Quote:
If the m/c pre-runner slammed into a local truck hauling chickens to the market (pre-running, not on race day), would you demand the chicken farmer
pay the m/c rider $4,000+? I am seeing if you can look at this in legal responsible terms, not as a friend to Carlos or off road racing.
That would be a "no fault accident" and both parties would have to pay for their own damages or a percentage as determined by the authorities.
Quote:
Pre-running is not racing and those dirt roads are their for anybody who wants to or needs to drive on them...
One of the only safety factors of Prerunning is a knowledge that your fellow racers and support teams largely respect the requests of SCORE to not run
backwards on the course.
And in particular, respect for SCORE's vehement request to not run backwards on that section between the Tres
Hermanos Y and Ojos Negros. The same section where an MC rider was killed in 1999 in this same scenario.
Not only was the buggy driver running backwards but the entire race team he was with fully planned to run backwards from the Y to Ojos before the
incident happened. Otherwise there was no reason for the buggy driver to reverse course after he proceeded in error to Urapan.
Quote:
On race day is when they are designated for the sport, but to expect those roads to be yours for your fun for a month before the race and all others
better stay off, is just plain silly.
You are the only person that has made this statement and, as if you bear some level of credence via your single, aborted race attempt back in the
early seventies this grandstanding is no surprise.
Quote:
In reading the buggy driver's side of the story, the fact he offered as much as he did shows how bad he fealt for Carlos, but it was an accident and
if Carlos had veered to the right (as is the normal side of the road for North America to pass oncoming traffic), then it sounds as if there would
have been no collision!
That is pure conjecture. You were not there and you are the farthest thing from a traffic accident analysis engineer on this planet.
You also fail to recognize the additional expense items that Carlos had to deal with to include medical, lost race fees, and lost, unpaid time away
from work.
You also fail to recognize that the buggy driver has a history of reckless behaviour at the wheel of his car as revealed in his payout for an accident
at Ocotillo Wells and resulting lawsuit.
Quote:
Oh, and there is no promotion of 'me' when I post here... I don't sell anything... Like you, I am just contributing, so take it or leave it, ok?
Take it or leave it? That goes two ways. Your self promotion remains repulsive.David K - 7-15-2005 at 08:28 AM
>> Take it or leave it? That goes two ways. Your self promotion remains repulsive. <<
As if the world wide web doesn't know you're a Republican ?? Tell me again Patrick, what am I selling? Have I ever claimed to be anything more than a
person who loves Baja and will never live long enough to know it all?
My comments above are just to give another view on the sad accident. If you read my post more carefully, you will see I also was on Carlos' side...
>>> You are the only person that has made this statement and, as if you bear some level of credence via your single, aborted race attempt
back in the early seventies this grandstanding is no surprise<<<
Really, than it is good I did make it... You really need to see the world from more than one point of view.
My 'race attempt' was neither aborted or in the early seventies... You should check your facts or read my web site bio.
The fact is I was a co-driver in the first SCORE Baja 1000 to La Paz (do I need to tell you what year Pat?), and has nothing to do with my
observations other than pre-running is not racing, nor needs to be at race speed. By the way, Sal Fish was the one who wished us good luck just before
we roared off the wooden platform in Ensenada... so that isn't what I would call abortive. We did break down before it was my turn behind the wheel,
but it was fun, none the less.bajalou - 7-15-2005 at 09:17 AM
Don't expect you all to agree, but the RACE is not the most important thing in the world. As many of you know, I live about 3 miles from where the
races go in San Felipe. I attend all of them and travel to see a few others also so I'm definately not "anti race".
The race course is NOT a closed course. It is open at all times for all other traffic, be it the local farmers and ranchers, or someone just out for
a outing in the desert. It might be dumb to be on the course when racers are out, but it isn't against the law to be stupid. Like on any road
anywhere, you got to look out for what might be there.
One of the most agrivating things to mee ysed to be the "Chase cars" running thru our residential neighborhood at above 60MPH. What the hell is 1
minute earlier going to do for a chase or pit crew that will undoubtly spend the next 1-6 hours waiting.
I enjoy the races and want them to continue, but some of the crews etc. need to pay a little more attention to the rest of the world that they are
running in.
Roberto - 7-15-2005 at 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
<snip> what am I selling?<snip>
Yourself.Sharksbaja - 7-15-2005 at 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou
I enjoy the races and want them to continue, but some of the crews etc. need to pay a little more attention to the rest of the world that they are
running in.
That is a very astute observation. Thanks for nailing that down. You are correct as to the behavior and overzealous activities amongst some(few)
crews, be it in the pits, the chase , or the planners and mappers. It's no secret or mystery and not often a big deal. It has something to do with
adrenaline and testoterone but is not limited to men. Heck yeah people want to experience a thrill along side the racers and rarely it ends sadly or
tragically. It is also obvious that we fuel each other with the excitement and participation. As in any sport however, because of the competitive
element, accidents spill over onto the spectators, crews and anything else in close proximity. This is inherent in any sport where machines are
flying around a course. Even a skier out of control is very dangerous. This display of machismo and talent is fine in a controled spin but it's the
amatuers that usually create big problems, be it on the race course or at the bar in Ensenada. I've seen it. I still feel though that anyone going
against the flow on any race course is gambling and they know they are. You can't tell me that isn't a major concern when they(anyone) do it.rpleger - 7-15-2005 at 02:42 PM
bajalou
Right on, It`s the chase cars here in Mulege,
Hell were 40 miles from the action and the crews come through here way fast, important and out of control.PJC - 7-15-2005 at 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
As if the world wide web doesn't know you're a Republican ??
Big Diff. I am not selling my self as "Dr. Republican".
Quote:
My comments above are just to give another view on the sad accident. If you read my post more carefully, you will see I also was on Carlos' side...
No, many people in my community see your post as follows:
1) A hijack by Dr. Baja.
2) A slam against all racers.
3) No alignment whatsoever to Carlos.
Quote:
Quote:
You are the only person that has made this statement and, as if you bear some level of credence via your single, aborted race attempt back in the
early seventies this grandstanding is no surprise
Really, than it is good I did make it... You really need to see the world from more than one point of view.
1) You are not the representative to speak on anyone's behalf on this matter. Especially the Mexican people.
2) Your comment came across direct and to the point that "all racers are reckless, uncarring and think that Baja is their rightful playground".
You consider anyone that asks you a questions or does not provide immediate "DK accolades" as biased.