BajaNomad - Language barrier or easement?

Language barrier or easement?

Sharksbaja - 9-18-2005 at 12:36 AM

Many people express frustration at their inability to converse in Spanish fluently. Many Nomads speak fractured Spanish including myself, like when I try to conjugate verbs etc.

How are these attempts viewed by a Mexican. Does it irritate some as it does here often when a person misspells or otherwise prints/speaks poor English?
It seems to me that Mexicans are much more tolerant, understanding and helpful towards enabling cross-communication when it's attempted.

I enjoy the learning curve.

Bob H - 9-18-2005 at 05:57 AM

Sharks, you think of so many topics. This is a good one. I just point to something and say "como se dice?" (sp?). Hah!
Bob H

Osprey - 9-18-2005 at 07:05 AM

Sharks, Listen, listen, listen. Some of my gringo neighbors don't know how to listen. A couple have become confused about how to say "Too much". They say "Too mas". The Mexican hears "you, more". You should see the show when my stupid gringo neighbors try to help their gardeners put water in a bucket. I don't worry about language in this little village -- I have about 2000 Spanish words and my Mexican fisherman pals use only about 150 Spanish words so unless we watch Jeopardy together we get along just fine. If we watch Jeopardy in Spanish, I win.

Santiago - 9-18-2005 at 07:13 AM

I suspect that there is a difference between a visitor and an ex-pat. A visitor gets a lot of slack on both sides of the border. But when the visitor buys a house and five years later still can't carry on a basic conversation - I think resentment sets in.

jerry - 9-18-2005 at 07:25 AM

most of the time i can get the idea across and i have never experenced a mexican being rude to me i cant say that about the gringos speaking about my spelling or perhaps i just dont understand what the mexicans are saying ?? but they say it with a smile when they need to correct me :lol:

have a good one jerry

bajajudy - 9-18-2005 at 08:19 AM

I find the Mexican people to be VERY tolerant of my fractured Spanish in general. However the more educated the person, the more they expect you to be able to speak Spanish if you live here.
I have been to 5 weeks of school, 3 in La Paz and 2 in Guadalajara and I still stumble bumble through a conversation but my verbs(tense and person) are pretty good and vocabulary excellent. And "como se dice" is the best way to improve your vocabulary.
No, Mexicans will very seldom correct you unless they are your friends and you ask them to help you learn the language.
The only way to learn is to practice, so speak and you will be rewarded with new friends and new knowledge.

bajajudy - 9-18-2005 at 08:26 AM

Ok hose
And a little embarassment

comitan - 9-18-2005 at 08:29 AM

Knowing the words and pronouncing them are the problem I have. I can say a word and think I'm saying it right but they come back with the word, and I say it the same way they do at least to me, but no they say it back again, this can go on 3 or 4 times then I give up. Its difficult.!!

bajajudy - 9-18-2005 at 08:33 AM

Well one of my major problems is that I have a southern accent. Put that in the mix with "is it masculine or feminine" and that is why I stumble bumble through conversations.
But I still say you have to do it. How can you live somewhere and not at least try to learn what the heck people are saying around you!?!?!?!?!

Diver - 9-18-2005 at 08:48 AM

Yes, it took me a while to get the less-than-subtle distinction between smoking purros vs burros.

Se vende burros ? ... wasn't getting me anywhere looking for cigars ! :lol:

Now I can say se vende ? anything with confidence !
"Commo se dice, senior or senorita ?" is my motto.
BTW, never saw a senora bothered by being called senorita !
They will often correct you with a blush.
I love women everywhere......

Oso - 9-18-2005 at 09:18 AM

One of the main cultural differences I observed over many years of teaching English to Mexicans was the frustrating difficulty in drawing them out, getting them to speak up and just go for it. Adults, in particular, are very reluctant to "try out" their newly acquired English in public until they are certain they have it exactly right. They seem much more embarrassed by mispronunciation.

Americans, by comparison, seem to be divided into two groups; those not interested in even trying to learn and those who will blithely and loudly come out with any god-awful absurd mish-mash of sounds with no trace of shyness.

The interesting thing is that the latter approach works. I have not yet clearly defined the reason for the apparent fact that badly pronounced Spanish CAN be understood and badly pronounced English cannot. Perhaps it has to do with the more homogenous roots of Spanish, coming almost directly from Latin with only a few "outside" influences and relatively simpler rules of pronunciation versus the hodge-podge of many roots forming English with its almost total lack of rules or consistency of pronunciation.

Any other thoughts on this particular point?

rpleger - 9-18-2005 at 09:24 AM

4 semesters of college Spanish.
3 weeks in Ensenada.
1 year tutouring in Muleg?.

I'm just friggen dumb, but I get along.

buying a pot

Skipjack Joe - 9-18-2005 at 09:53 AM

Fifty years later I can still feel the embarassment of shopping with my parents in Australia. I was 7 then.

dad: I vont pot.
salesman: What?
dad: Pot, big pot.
salesman: Sir, I don't understand.
dad: I buy pot (getting angrier).
salesman: Pot? what pot.
dad: I looking for pot (neck muscles straining).
salesman: Ohhhhh! You mean pot. (face lighting up)

Dad turns to me. What an idiot. I said pot and he doesn't understand pot. Then he says the exact same thing (pot) and now he understands. His anger turns on me. Why aren't you helping in this? What am I sending you to school for? You should be doing all the talking.

Fortunately I seem to grasp languages quickly. I don't learn to swim. I just jump into the water and start thrashing.

Skipjack

[Edited on 9-18-2005 by Skipjack Joe]

[Edited on 9-18-2005 by Skipjack Joe]

Osprey - 9-18-2005 at 09:58 AM

Skipjack, that's the best way to learn to swim, just jump in. My dad taught all us kids down at the river. Couple of times I almost didn't make it out of the sack.

Diver - 9-18-2005 at 10:13 AM

Very correct Oso;
We have many spanish-speaking carpenters and masons in my area and you really have to get one on one and friendly to get them to try their english. Unfortunately, they don't seem keen on helping me learn spanish either as it often requires them to try some english to explain.
We keep trying though, because they are good people and good workers.

[Edited on 9-18-2005 by Diver]

Communicating

MrBillM - 9-18-2005 at 10:51 AM

I look at this whole language business a little differently. I really don't care if I can ever speak Spanish correctly. I'm not a very gregarious person to begin with and began to learn Spanish at a late stage in life. My only consideration is making myself understood, whether it be in a business transaction or socially.

I spent eight years in the Auto Electric business in Indio. As a result, unlike a lot of people here, I have been in contact with Hispanics speaking illiterate, fractured English for years and I never thought badly of them. Our only motivation was to communicate well enough to get the job done. The Mexicans in Baja should feel the same way. If they don't, tough !

I once had a Hispanic customer who owned a Service Station in Coachella tell me that I should learn to speak better Spanish because so many of my customers didn't speak English. He said that when he first came to the U.S. on the Sunkist express *, he only knew a few words of English, but taught himself English to survive. I pointed out that the difference was motivation and if I were suddenly in an environment where I had to learn to survive, I probably would.

* The Sunkist Express for those unfamiliar with the Coachella Valley refers to the Southern Pacific railroad that passes through Mecca where there was a Sunkist Packing plant. The plant had a sign showing a huge Orange right next to the tracks. The coyotes would tell the passengers to get off of the train when they saw the Big Orange since La Migra would usually board the trains when they pulled into the Thermal-Indio area.

bajaden - 9-18-2005 at 03:06 PM

I guess I'm with Richard. Just dumb. I think its harder to learn at an older age. My short term memory sucks. Once, and if, I ever get something in there, I can usually remember it. My spanish is better now than it was a year ago, so I guess there's room for hope. My good friend Omar gets most of his intertainment trying to teach me spanish. Im sort of like Comitan. He'll pronounce a word for me and I'll say it back to him. Its sounds exactly the same to me. I immediatly know somethings wrong when he breaks out in laughter.

Sharksbaja - 9-18-2005 at 06:28 PM

Very well articulated you people.
Oso, you've a good spin on this.

Americans who have little Spanish are a confused bunch.
Most I have talked to about this subject concur that the need for a second language is more and more important. Since the number of hispanic speaking people has increased dramatically in recent years so has the importance of understanding our new neighbors.
I suppose it is personal choice for the most part but it sure would be handy for many. I mean how many service businesses depend on folks that speak limited English. Inasmuch, it beehooves and in most cases becomes necessary for hispanics to acquire basic knowledge of workplace English. It has become unusual to see the majority job applicants are not caucasion, and I am talkin' Oregon.

Diver - 9-18-2005 at 06:37 PM

It's not just the gringos that are moving up from Ca to Oregon and Washington !! It's a better life for the mexican-americans as well.

Sharksbaja - 9-18-2005 at 06:49 PM

Especially to Washington! Good grief what about all that rain? :lol:

jerry - 9-18-2005 at 06:56 PM

i have had no formal education on speaking spanish or
mexican but i have leaned enoff to get by i canot read or wright a word of iti learn more and more every time i spend time there
i will learn to read and write it when i can spend enoff time there to take a class
how ever i do try to impress on my mexican friends that they and at least there children need to learn english not for me because i well learn their language but for them becouse the gringo buck is erned easyer with english i feel it is the number one thing that a parent can do for there childrens future. have a good one jerry

capn.sharky - 9-18-2005 at 07:49 PM

Sharkster---just add an O at the end of every word. Ja, ja. No, seriously, the Mexicans take it as a compliment if you try to use spanish in Mexico. They will help you all they can. Another idea---why not find a Mexican that speaks a little english and offer to teach him english if he teaches you spanish. This really works out good for both sides. There is no shortage of Mexicans that want to learn more english. Verbs and irregular verbs can be maddening. There are phrases you can learn to help eliminate their use. For instance en la semana proxima or dos meses pasada. As you continue to use your spanish with your Mexican friends you will pick it up fast. Worried about not knowing enough spanish words? Well, fear not, you don't know all the english words either. Spanish is alot like sex---use it or lose it. :tumble:

bajajudy - 9-18-2005 at 08:27 PM

Oso
I see the difference as the accent. In Spanish the accent can change the meaning of the word. And there is something about the accent being on the next to the last sylable that make the words all run together like one big word.
English on the other hand is basically flat. We seem to use accents to play an emotion not as part of the pronunciation of the word. And with the accent on the last sylable, it is easy to hear when the word ends. So you can start processing the meaning of it.
Anyway with my southern accent it all becomes a moot point.

jerry - 9-18-2005 at 09:13 PM

theres been a lot of logging going on in or and wash and there very hard workers so im sure theres work for them tree planting and i know a lot of loggers that will hire mexicans over a gringo if there at least one of them that speakes some english (teach them logging mostly the grunt work at first) any pay the same as the gringos because the gringos wont work or theres a lot of them on drugs and dont show upi talked to a logger a while back he had to yarder crews and he said we was having trouble with his ppl being on drugs said he was going to do ramdom drug teasting
half the crews said i quit and the next day he had only one yarder crew have a good one

bajaden - 9-18-2005 at 11:32 PM

One thing I think they need to emplement in the schools up north, is teaching spanish at an earlier age. Like in the 3rd or 4th grade. At that age the mind of a child is like a sponge, unlike mine which probably resembles a prune. My grandson who is 11 years old picked almost as much spanish as I know, just spending a month here.

I do agree with Judy. Sometimes it seems as if there is no beginning or end to words when spoken by mexicans. I suppose we sound the same to them.

I did take Latin for two years in school. Its hard to find a Roman to talk to.

Second language

Sharksbaja - 9-18-2005 at 11:53 PM

It makes perfect sense in America to be bi-lingual and teach it mandatorally . Look how well the Europeans did.

Osprey - 9-19-2005 at 09:53 AM

Sometimes things defy discription in any language. Fishing/catching is a perfect example.
Catching a fish is easier done than said. We don?t actually ?Catch? a fish. In any language the activity (with hook and line) is complete after 3 things happen. First we must ?Hook? the fish, then reel it in (or pull it in with a hand line) to the shore or boat, bring it onto the shore, into the boat or release it back into the water. Since no one word will suffice for 3 separate actions and since we are lazy when it comes to language we settle for a word to almost describe part of the process.
I find it ironic that Spanish speaking people go about vocalizing the activity in the exact same, incorrect way. Most Mexican fishermen I meet use the term Trampa, ?trap?. They will not use the Spanish words for ?hook?, ?catch?, ?capture?, ?kill?, ?take or take out? or ?grab?.
Our misuse of either language only costs us more verbiage because, when pressed, we must tell the whole story: ?I caught 4 nice fish, which I kept; hooked two more but lost them, got another small one to the boat, released it.?

Sharksbaja - 9-19-2005 at 10:15 AM

Osprey, thanks for dotting the I's and crossing the T's.

See I don't even know how to write THAT correctly. I's & T's?

You made your point!

bajalou - 9-19-2005 at 10:33 AM

Took spanish a little in high school, then in the 80's took a trip to Mazatlan and was driving acorss a flodded vada in a river and thought "I don't even know how to say "Help" in Spanish". took adult school classes for a year or so and still knew very little.

Moved to San Felipe 10 years ago and just tried to use the little I knew. Worked OK for me. Little by little I progress. My mexican friends will correct me and I often ask them for the Spanish word for something. But I long ago noticed many common words are synonyms for the one used in English example - vendor/vende/etc - in English business vendor is a commonly used word for someone selling. Many more examples if I just think a little.

As long as I keep trying, I will make a little progress.

:saint:

bajalou - 9-19-2005 at 10:36 AM

On the Mexican learing English subject, I have a Mex. friend who bought a house in Mexicali so his son can go to high school there as he feels thay have a better English language program there. He believes English is very important living in Baja or most of Mexico.

:biggrin:

Baja&Back - 9-19-2005 at 03:17 PM

I always thought the best way to learn Spanish was to find a Mexican girlfriend - but my wife doesn't agree.

Sigh ...

:spingrin:

That Works !

MrBillM - 9-19-2005 at 05:11 PM

I had a close pal that broke up with his wife and moved in with a Latina. She would coach him each day in Spanish and he really improved. Unfortunately, he got back together with the wife and the lessons stopped.

Oso - 9-19-2005 at 06:23 PM

Now we're getting to the crux of the matter. That is exactly how I learned. :biggrin:

kids learning a language

Skipjack Joe - 9-19-2005 at 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaden
Like in the 3rd or 4th grade. At that age the mind of a child is like a sponge, unlike mine which probably resembles a prune. My grandson who is 11 years old picked almost as much spanish as I know, just spending a month here.

A child's ability to pick up language and mimic sounds perfectly is truly amazing. I don't know how much research has been done on this subject, but I believe there is a lot for us to learn.

When I was five I was sent to Switzerland by the International Red Cross to stay with some people. At that time I could speak 3 languages. I was sent to live with German speaking folks for the summer months (3 months). By the time I returned I spoke German but had forgotten the other 3 languages. I met my parents at the train station and could no longer communicate with them. I had to hear the old words again and make the connection. So you learn fast and forget just as fast.

The young brain also has good pitch recognition. No mispronounciation from the start. The word sounds right from the first time it's said. Perfect mimicry. Somewhere between 10 and 13 you lose it. Ever hear a German that's lived in the states for all of his adult life. That accent just never goes away. No matter how they try you know their origin the minute they open their mouths.

Humans are fascinating!

bajaden - 9-20-2005 at 12:59 AM

Great points by everyone. There's an answer there somewhere. In the meantime I'll just allow Omar to continue laughing at me.