BajaNomad - Just really not worth it

Just really not worth it

Baja Bernie - 10-11-2005 at 08:26 PM

Diver - 10-11-2005 at 08:29 PM

Just a bit melodramatic, wouldn't you say ?? :biggrin:

bajajudy - 10-11-2005 at 08:31 PM

Bernie
What?

[Edited on 10-12-2005 by bajajudy]

???????????????????????????

Bruce R Leech - 10-12-2005 at 06:23 AM

?????????????????????? :lol:

Diver

Baja Bernie - 10-12-2005 at 07:35 AM

No, just very tired. Sorry. Writing does that to me sometimes.

Diver - 10-12-2005 at 07:51 AM

Bernie,

It was a good story and got 98 reads already.
Don't be tired; be satisfied !
Thanks again.

Oops, just noticed that your last post had a 2004 date.
Whatever you're writing, let it satisfy you to put the words to paper. You do it well.

[Edited on 10-12-2005 by Diver]

Diver

Baja Bernie - 10-12-2005 at 08:08 AM

Thank you.

Sometimes when I am looking for a way to make something meaningful and a bit amusing at the same time I....................................................well, you know!

Tucker - 10-12-2005 at 08:18 AM

Pompano, I agree with your views of the missions. They are symbols of the opression of the native peoples.

Bernie: Hernan Cortes.

Osprey - 10-12-2005 at 08:30 AM

I thought the priest's quote was about the Pericu "comen sin HASTIO (they eat without GREED/HASTE, viven sin verguenza, mueren sin timor"

wilderone - 10-12-2005 at 09:03 AM

"Pompano, I agree with your views of the missions. They are symbols of the opression of the native peoples."

So how do you feel about your cotton shirts and cigarettes?? Also, "symbols" of the kidnapping, slavery and oppression of Africans brought to the US and sold as chattel.
The Egyption pyramids, similarly, were built by slaves, as were some of the Inca structures. Even today, children are enslaved in some countries sewing clothes and making buttons for their masters - the North American clothing industry. etc, etc, etc. We seem to learn little from past errors of humankind.

bajaden - 10-12-2005 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
"Pompano, I agree with your views of the missions. They are symbols of the opression of the native peoples." We seem to learn little from past errors of humankind.

Whats with this we, mr lone ranger. Some of us have, not that it makes a tinkers damm. I can't spend a lot of time worrying about something I can't do anything about.

Just keep typing Bernie and we'll keep reading.

Cincodemayo - 10-12-2005 at 10:12 AM

Don't shop at Wallmart.

rpleger - 10-12-2005 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

What is not worth it?

Tucker - 10-12-2005 at 11:14 AM

I picked a lot of cotton (by hand) and other crops when I was young, being a child of the dust bowl ain't far from slavery.

Frank - 10-12-2005 at 03:28 PM

Bernie I can only re-read the books I got from you so many times, I need more.......Its worth it!

David K - 10-12-2005 at 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
Baja Bernie,

... Sorry David K!

Would like to see more history-related articles on pre-European Baja....

.

Have you seen my rock art photos? These are 'pre-European invasion' history posts from me... LOT'S! :biggrin:

Diver - 10-12-2005 at 04:13 PM

Bernie; I never knew !
Sorry, I just finally took the time to check out your website.
Totally awsome !! Great titles ! I gotta have them !

David K - 10-12-2005 at 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
"Pompano, I agree with your views of the missions. They are symbols of the opression of the native peoples."

So how do you feel about your cotton shirts and cigarettes?? Also, "symbols" of the kidnapping, slavery and oppression of Africans brought to the US and sold as chattel.
The Egyption pyramids, similarly, were built by slaves, as were some of the Inca structures. Even today, children are enslaved in some countries sewing clothes and making buttons for their masters - the North American clothing industry. etc, etc, etc. We seem to learn little from past errors of humankind.

Well stated Wilderone, as you just can't "wish away" the past because it contained some politically incorrect or negative events... Deal with it... learn from it... teach from it!

The missions became many of today's towns and villages in Baja... Guadalupe, La Mision, Santa Catarina, Santo Tomas, San Vicente, El Rosario, Santa Gertrudis, San Ignacio, Mulege, La Purisima, Comondu, Loreto, San Luis Gonzaga, Todos Santos, Santiago, San Jose del Cabo all owe their existance to the mission settlements started by those 'evil' Catholics.

(painting of the mission at Mulege, by Hugo Lopez of El Rosario, hanging in a room at the Baja Cactus Motel.)

History according to

jrbaja - 10-12-2005 at 04:31 PM

Yep. First came the missions, then water magically appeared in all these sites. :lol:

All these sites have a prereligion tale to tell. A very few of the areas still know the history prior to missions as the stories have been passed down from the original? inhabitants.

David K - 10-12-2005 at 05:05 PM

I am affraid the original inhabiting race died off (thanks to those Europeans) before today's population came to farm or ranch the land. No more Indians meant no more need for missions (or slave labor to do the mission work). Mexico became independant from Spain, took the land from the remaining open missions, the missions were abandoned. Some became local parish churches for the new Mexican population

Some of the Spanish soldiers did have children with Indian women (some priests too, perhaps)... But there were no more pagen religious ceremonies as all the remaining Indians were converted by the early 1800's.

Stories are passed along from generation to generation, but only written history can be used to provide credible information. The Baja Indians had no written language.

Perhaps record these village stories on paper and compare to documented history? I recall (from you) the residents of Mision San Luis Gonzaga didn't even know their own history... well, the mission's history as in the date it was founded. Even a Mexican made map of Baja had the wrong date for it...

Being Mexican, living in Mexico, or even living at a historic location doesn't automatically make you knowledgeable about the history of Baja. It takes research! I can recommend some great books...

[Edited on 10-13-2005 by David K]

And I thought your previous post

jrbaja - 10-12-2005 at 06:02 PM

was ridiculous! :lol:

Baja's History according to David K's research, by foreigners who think that all indigenous are either stupid or dead.

I'm trying to be nice David but the nonsense you continue to spew makes it very difficult.

Because they were Injuns, and didn't write down their stories in books, although they did by other means, (they didn't have Bic pens yet I guess) is considered insignificant? :lol:

First, a little history for DK. There were quite a few places in Baja, where these dumb Injuns used to congregate. This is because there was water. There still is.

The Injuns didn't like condos, (too confining and not that cold anyway) so they didn't do a lot of construction. I know what they did do though, in fact I even know some living walking evidence of this fornication by these savages. They are good cowboys!

So, these Injuns did like to explore, live in caves, find food, tell stories and fornicate. hmmmmm. Go figger! Some of these stories are still written on rocks, many are still told by their descendants.

Water was fairly scarce then so development began. Spear making, baskets, all kinds of useful businesses sprang up, all around water. Necessary even for dumb Injuns !

Not all of these communities were discovered by the european perverts so not all of them had missions built. In fact, I have been to two of these areas and have yet to go to a third I know of. They are full of evidence of a past civilization which had nothing to do with europeans.

There are writings, caves, etc. that have never been disturbed and the folks that live in these areas would love to roast someone over a spit who would contest their history which was handed down thoughout the generations.

I don't know what I would have told you about San Luis but I wouldn't believe a word of anything I said to you about history in specific locations David. Remember, loose lips and GPS coordinates on the internet? :lol:

So anyway, long before those strange ships, there were thriving communities in most all parts of Baja. Same as in the u.s. before those P-nche ships showed up. The people were happy, sometimes they warred, usually not, ate peyote, had rituals, danced a lot, minded their own business and made things.

All around water and the lifeblood of any civizilation. I think perhaps the invaders weren't so into chasing Injuns through this desert so they concentrated on the communities where they didn't have to run so far. Ojos de Agua to be exact.

I guess they weren't that dumb, just lazy after all that hiking in the desert. :lol:

If anyone is interested in some real info. from some people that actually know of what they speak, 1st hand, I have maps for sale. :biggrin:

I'll post some pics again.

Bruce R Leech - 10-12-2005 at 06:41 PM

I agree with you jrbaja. most of my time is spent exploring the early Baja Indians . I don't wast my time on the Spanish destroyers.

please if you know of such sites don't sell maps they will be ruined in a short time.

David K - 10-12-2005 at 07:14 PM

The Indians are dead JR... so the Mexicans can't tell you from personal or handed down legends how it was before the Europeans came (who actually wrote things we can read today).

Yes, there is water in Baja and yes, the Indians were there first... Their cave art, bones, sleeping circles, hunting blinds are proof of that... Much of that can be studied and has been.

The missions were often built AT Indian villages (called 'rancherias' by the padres)... because THAT is where the water was.. duh?! Idon't understand you stating the obvious... I never said the missions came BEFORE the Indians... The missions were put there because the Indians were already there!

When you go way back into the hills looking for new varieties of bamboo and speak to those ranch folks, do you think you are speaking to someone who even knew a Cochimi, Guaycura or Pericu personally? Even in tiny San Francisco de la Sierra (home of some of the oldest Arce and Villavicencio family clans), they can only story tell back to when the Spanish came.

I am really interested on how the new Mexicans (post mission era) can have personal knowledge of what it was like before they or their ancestors came to Baja??? That is unless they have read books and spent time in libraries and museums...

There is nothing wrong in liking Baja's pre mission history... I like it too! I also like the mission era, and the post mission mining era, and even the pre pavement rancho era!

Dead and Gone

MrBillM - 10-12-2005 at 07:32 PM

The Backward and unachieving Aborigines of Baja lost out to a Superior and more innovative race from another continent. End of story. That is the way of the world. Superior intellect triumphs.

Frank/Diver

Baja Bernie - 10-12-2005 at 07:39 PM

Frank, If you want to give me a call and come by the house I have Baja HaHa and the Grinning Gargoyle I'll sell you with all proceeds going to the widows of these wonderful authors. I would enjoy talking to you again.

Diver, All four books are in the mail and they should make those Washington winters a bit warmer with fun stories of our Baja.

Thanks to both of you.

Superior Intellect

jrbaja - 10-12-2005 at 07:48 PM

Greed and a sexual preference for little boys! Impressive so far.

David, again, you do not have a clue. There were many who survived religion. They just didn't post coordinates of their whereabouts.

There are some really good stories about that in some Mexican jounals as well as the fact that some of the families have indeginious blood.. Personally I believe them, rather than some foreigner pretending to know Mexicos history.

Besides, they have unique physical characteristics. Perhaps they had plastic surgery and are faking it. And Erle found out about his arrowheads and caves from the gringo gazzoot rather than local knowledge I'll bet.

Because to be believed, it has to be written down, in english! :lol:

Bajaboy - 10-12-2005 at 08:16 PM

JR-are you trying to educate us as to Baja's past or simply put down DK?

Now, I wonder what label history will put on us...the new invaders....as we rape and pillage the land and sea and the people....that includes you JR.

Zac

[Edited on 10-13-2005 by Bajaboy]

Most of what JR says on this thread is pure speculation------

Barry A. - 10-12-2005 at 09:50 PM

not backed up by any known written history-----to the contrary, the written history paints a much different picture than what JR wishes us to believe. The cave paintings tell us practically nothing-----mostly they have yet to be interpreted, and any attempt is pure speculation.

What David K writes is essentially backed up by what historians and participants have written down. Is it true???? Again, we can only speculate, but I tend to accept it more than the heresay by folks that are so removed from "those days" that their credibility has to be questioned, at the very least, even tho theY may be sincere.

What JR seems to believe that David K said, is just not what he said, and JR has twisted David's writings to such an extent as to wonder who he is talking about.

The personnel narritives of those who spent time amongst the "Injuns" paints a vastly different picture than what JR believes, and what he would have us "except" as truth, in his constant attempt to discredit David K. Read a little of the Narritive of Cabeza de Vaca who, with compadres, spent several years among the Injuns from Florida to Mexico, as a fugitive of a Florida ship wreck. Read the narritive of the Oatman Girls who spent several years among the Mojave Indians in S. California. These are just two of many narritives. They paint a pretty horrid picture of the state of the North American Indians in the SW USA, vastly different from the picture that JR is painting.

The Spaniard's did some pretty horrific things to the native populations, that is not contested. Lets face it, things were rough back then, and very primitive, and the strong survived.

All aspects of what history has to teach us is "important", to my way of thinking, if we wish to even have an inkling of what actually went on.

i just ordered Baja Haha...

eetdrt88 - 10-12-2005 at 09:59 PM

from amazon for 95 cents...they had Bernies book to,but for about the same price as he sells it so i'll probably just order it from him...i'm wondering if anyone knows where you can get a copy of Ray Cannons book for a decent price or at least less than 35$??

Frank - 10-12-2005 at 10:22 PM

I would rather give my money to Fred and Jimmy widows. But thats just me. I still wish I would of said Hi to Jimmy @ Verdugos, I hate being bashful, wont happen again.
Bernie, I'll give you a call. Frank

Neal Johns - 10-12-2005 at 10:52 PM

eetdrt88,
Ray Cannon's Sea of Cortez cheap:

[url]http://makeashorterlink.com/?I6C9118FB[url]

[url]http://makeashorterlink.com/?K4B9218FB[url]

Frank/Diver

Baja Bernie - 10-13-2005 at 07:19 AM

Sylvia Hoctor and Dona Guadalupe del Socorro Romero Lopez de Smith say--thank you.

Remembering Don Jimmy--"Jim Smith could start a conversation with a dead dog" Mark Willis

Really now?

jrbaja - 10-13-2005 at 09:24 AM

Personally, I thought this could be a very good debate. David and I have briefly had this disagreement before, as well as other people from both sides of the theories.

Seems more to me like the DK groupies are just there to protect their Baja history "all knowing king" rather than provide any facts.

The reality is, the Mexican people believe something entirely different than what the gringos have to say about their past. And so do I. And so do the u.s. indigenous about what has been written about them.

I have talked to many of the people down here, including historians, the people who live around these areas, and one of the last descendants of the Indigenous in Baja. Yep, they are still around and if you get far enough away from the tourist areas, there is quite a bit of evidence.

Last night, there was a show on the Amazons. Yep, those big ol girls from around the same period. DNA records connected some of the living people in the wilds of Russia to graves holding female warriors thought to be from this tribe.

And it's a lot easier to survive in Baja than the harshness of Russia. :light:

But, now that Bernie has decided it is worth it, I will start a different thread so as not to clutter this one. And I gotta say, Bernie has the most unique way of titling and starting threads that I have ever seen.

[Edited on 10/13/2005 by jrbaja]

wilderone - 10-13-2005 at 09:47 AM

"...lost out to a Superior and more innovative race"
???????????
LOST OUT? The Spaniards brought the disease which wiped them out, dumchit. Superior? Innovative? Their intentions were to rob, enslave, rape and take their land - all in the name of God and the queen, i.e., greed.
And as you must know - because you're so superior -- more than once the natives drove away some of the earliest explorers with successful attacks, thereby holding their own for many years in spite of the "superior" european weaponry. The Spaniards considered Baja shores a wasteland and didn't know how to survive without the natives' assistance.

Sheesh

jrbaja - 10-13-2005 at 10:50 AM

and I thought gay robbers were bad!

Pomp----that is heavy stuff-----

Barry A. - 10-13-2005 at 10:59 AM

but as I said, "I do not contest that the treatment of the native peoples by the Spanish was horrific". It was!!!!

But to then make the "leap" of faith that the native peoples of Baja and the Southwest USA were all sweetness and light is hard for me to swallow, also. Perhaps that is not what you were even saying----our perceptions and interpretations sometimes get us all screwed up.

Like I said to JR on a separate thread (wrong thread by mistake) the truth probably lies somewhere in between, but I still believe that we should take a look at all sides, and hopefully learn something (how is that for optimism).

I personally think that the Spaniards were just greedy and oportunistic, using religion as an excuse----but that is just my feeling.

Barry

jrbaja - 10-13-2005 at 11:04 AM

Even the toughest of us gringos have seen the hospitalty of the Baja natives. They constantly sing, would give you the shirt off their backs, insist on you staying just a little longer or having that one more tamal.

Do you think this attitude came from the conquistadores or the native populations that they bred with?

Were they doing that to each other

jrbaja - 10-13-2005 at 11:17 AM

on a regular basis? Or did they get upset about something?
As far as u.s. history goes, I just recently learned of a ruins/civilization in the u.s. that was comparable to the Aztecs down south.
I believe there is a lot that we are about to find out in spite of what "written history" had to tell us.
And I'm pretty sure it won't be pretty!

Barry A. - 10-13-2005 at 11:26 AM

Jr--------agree with you 100% on the rural folks of Baja CA. Where their "attitude" came from???? if I knew that I would bottle it and surge ahead of Bill Gates as the richest man in North America. (evidence that I am a greedy Gringo)

It certainly did not come from the conquistadores-----a degenerate bunch of oportunists and misfits who were adventurers, and greedy beyond belief-----and you know, I have very little idea why they were that way, either-----products of their environment, I suppose.

All speculation.

a degenerate bunch of oportunists and misfits who were adventurers,

jrbaja - 10-13-2005 at 11:32 AM

Sounds like our crew sailing around the South China Sea on a 3 masted schooner! :lol:

I may post some stories in the off topic as we actually scared off some pirates during this adventure. :bounce:

JR-----I too have heard of that new find in North America-----

Barry A. - 10-13-2005 at 11:34 AM

and what happened to it?????it disappeared long before the Euros showed up------do you think that it just wistfully and peacefully drifted off to extinction??? I don't think so-----it was probably killed off by another bunch of folks that did not like them----other natives!!! It goes on, and on, and on, and the peoples of the earth never learn---all of us.

Can we admit anything negative, permanently?

Sharksbaja - 10-13-2005 at 12:01 PM

Thank you for the history lesson Pompano. It's a sad state of affairs that we we were taught that our forefathers were anything but blood-thirsty opportunists.
I wonder if that is the norm throughout the world or is it just our (social) inherent duty.
It is no wonder so many people are/were duped into believing our country (and others) were settled by a civilized race.
Why can we not face up to our heinous past and except the downside of prosperity brought to Europe through it's explotations. We as a people have learned to accept and live with lies taught us by generations. Where does it stop?
I see it everyday in the press. Still in denial.

Oh Boo Hoo, So Sad, Too Bad

MrBillM - 10-13-2005 at 03:30 PM

Personally, I couldn't give a Rata's Nalgas over what happened to any of this continent's Aborigines. They met up with a superior bunch and came out second-best and we, the descendents of that superior force, are the better for it. None of anyone's teary laments are going to change the past.

BTW, JR, your equating Sexual predilection and greed (past or present) with intellect is obviously defective. There are innumerable greedy and perverted humans at both ends and in the middle of the intellectual scale. The difference is that, usually, the smart ones get away with it.

Viva Columbus and all of the other European Invaders.

Uh oh Bill

jrbaja - 10-13-2005 at 03:35 PM

Were you by any chance a catholic choir boy? :lol:

Actually

MrBillM - 10-13-2005 at 03:48 PM

Untrue to my native Irish roots, I was brought up to believe that the Catholic religion is based on idolotry and, therefore, pagan. As an adult, I have adopted a more relaxed view of THAT religion and ATTEMPT (sometimes unsuccessfully) to take a benign approach when the subject comes up.

now theres one i havent heard...

eetdrt88 - 10-13-2005 at 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

Viva Columbus and all of the other European Invaders.

some of the stuff people say is just to friggin funny..."European Invaders"sounds like some the name of a euro sports team :tumble:

wilderone - 10-14-2005 at 08:27 AM

"...we, the descendents of that superior force, are the better for it."

Oh, the ******** nonsense of the Irish. So were the protestants or the catholics the more superior? (oh yeah - that made sense) Whatever your answer, it is wrong.

And please do not lump me in your "we" equation - I am a descendent of the indigenous and WE have not inherited the pomposity which obviously has not dissipated through the generations.

[Edited on 10-14-2005 by BajaNomad]

Wilderone

jrbaja - 10-14-2005 at 08:33 AM

I agree with you 100%. But, do you celebrate thanksgiving?

Injun Wilderone, WE WON !

MrBillM - 10-14-2005 at 10:42 AM

Too bad for those Indios in Mexico that they weren't born in the USSA. They could open a casino.

No problem on the lumping issue. I wouldn't want to lump you into anything ***********.

Speaking of Aborigine inconsistency, how about all of these POW WOWS that are always going on. Pow Wow was a Spanish interpretation of some (?) Indian tribal word so why are they using the Conquistadore's lingo ? Besides, most of these tribes were small and regional and had distinct languages so how did Pow Wow become universal among the Abos ?

[Edited on 10-14-2005 by BajaNomad]

How!

jrbaja - 10-14-2005 at 10:47 AM

Does one get to be such a prejudiced heap *****************? :lol:

[Edited on 10-14-2005 by BajaNomad]

This is starting to degenerate

zforbes - 10-14-2005 at 10:54 AM

into Off Topic style....could you take it there if you want to continue in this vein?

Thanks.

Who, Little Ol ME ??

MrBillM - 10-14-2005 at 10:59 AM

I think a more appropriate word from your standpoint, although wrong, would be Bigoted, which I am not.

Prejudice is to "Pre Judge" without investigation or education, although in some dictionaries it has been bastardized to simply mean hatred of a particular race, etc. I don't "pre judge" anyone, in either a negative or positive sense and I don't HATE anyone because of race, ethnicity, religion, etc, etc, etc.

I'm really a warm, friendly and loving individual (well, maybe not).

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition"

Tell it to the Marines

zforbes - 10-14-2005 at 11:05 AM

jrbaja - 10-14-2005 at 11:08 AM

:lol:

That's what I like about Mr. Bill!!

it sounds like the little blue pill might help out here

eetdrt88 - 10-14-2005 at 11:11 AM

:lol:

************

MrBillM - 10-14-2005 at 12:39 PM

Well, at least we've been keeping the administrator busy, probably to his dismay.

The only problem I see with all of those ************ is that all offensive verbiage is given equal weight. I think that a more sophisticated system should be devised wherein we could be better informed as to the nature of the offense. Perhaps:

^^^^^^^ = politically incorrect reference.

####### = Racial Insults.

********* = Slang terms for bodily functions.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! = Physical Threats

<><><><> = Parentage Insults

Mas y Mas y Mas y Mas

Sharksbaja - 10-14-2005 at 01:13 PM

Not a bad idea Mr. Bill

This could work for axe murderer remarks:

???????????

:biggrin:

Well, I'll be dipped in

jrbaja - 10-14-2005 at 01:53 PM

whale glue! The things that get deleted and some of the things that don't truly amaze me! At least Bill has a sense of humor !!!

Zoe

Baja Bernie - 10-15-2005 at 12:34 PM

I think I started this thread but I have not been sure because of what it has evolved into. It is getting a bit tacky and I 'now' agree with your comment.

Do any of you guys remember what it was about?????? Ah! Well, It couldn't have been important because the last bunch of stuff sure hasn't been--important that is.

funny, but somehow suggestive

Sharksbaja - 10-15-2005 at 02:00 PM

and sometimes provocative.

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
whale glue! The things that get deleted and some of the things that don't truly amaze me! At least Bill has a sense of humor !!!

JR, you're an exception to the norm!lol:
You should know that. There is a special rule book used!

It could depend on what one finds humorous or serious perhaps??? :light:

Possibly allowed by ones' own interpretation or maybe that subjective comments prevail. We don't all comprehend the posts the same. It would be sooooooooo boring.

David K - 10-15-2005 at 02:59 PM

That's the way to make new friends, marvina (NOT)!

It's the "not welcome" commitee

Sharksbaja - 10-15-2005 at 03:15 PM

:lol:

mervina

Baja Bernie - 10-15-2005 at 03:37 PM

I thank you for your very well thought out observation.

Which finger did you place in the wind? Oh! No, don't say that one because this is a very friendly board and they usually forgive me my stupid thoughts. However, they seldom ignore actions such as that.

Yes, I know I mispelled your handle and am certainly not sorry. Welcome to the board and I look forward to your first adult post.

I am normally happy when we get a new member but for some reason I do not have that feeling as it relates to you.

"Just really not worth it"

jrbaja - 10-15-2005 at 05:35 PM

I've been trying to figure out what a thread with this title was about since you first posted it. Baja?
And I think that it has had some interest because of the interaction and comments, rather than what it was supposedly about.
By the way, what was it about?