Salsa - 11-13-2005 at 09:37 AM
It now seens like the odd transponders are on a different satellite that is very close to the old one.
We should be able to confirm the theory by moving the dish to get the odd ones.
Where exactly are the two?
How much beamwidth does it take to get both?
Can we get them with 2 dishes and a switch?
Don
Ok, here they Are !
MrBillM - 11-13-2005 at 11:11 AM
http://www.tracksat.com/My%20Webs/N&S%20American.htm
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I notice on the above link that the software only recognizes a portion of it as the link, therefore you need to cut and paste it rather than simply
click on it. Works Ok with cut and paste.
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Above lists all of the Satellites. D1R and D2 are both located at 101 Deg West whereas D8 is located at 100.0 Deg West. It should only take a
"Slight" change to locate D8, but it's noted in the letter published that it has a "tighter beam squint" so you may have to be very precise in your
alignment. Your existing Azimuth will be very close and the Elevation should be the same.
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If you want to find out more General Satellite info than you ever thought you'd want to know, check out the following link:
http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/geodef.html
Wondering ??
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Since the two satellites are within 1 deg of each other and the current single dish works well in the U.S. to receive both, Might it be possible to
use a larger dish that would assure a high signal level on D1R, D2 and start dialing that dish Eastward until an acceptable signal is found on D8 and
the D1R, D2 signal is still within acceptable levels ? What kind of signal can you peak on those larger dishes used in Baja Sur ? If you can get
into the mid 80s or even mid 70s, you'd have a lot of room to work with.
[Edited on 11-13-2005 by MrBillM]
[Edited on 11-13-2005 by MrBillM]
Differences in Azimuth
MrBillM - 11-13-2005 at 04:48 PM
Regarding the one degree of separation for D1R, D2 and D8:
At the Latitude of San Felipe, the Astronomical separation of one degree between satellites works out to about 1.66 degrees of Azimuth i.e. Echostar
at 110 deg and Echostar at 119 deg work out to 15 degrees of azimuth separation. Has anybody experimented to see what the separation is at the
Latitudes in Baja Sur ? At first glance, it would seem that it shouldn't change since we're looking at satellites 25K miles out in space, but
apparently it does according to the original letter published.
Bajabus - 11-13-2005 at 05:30 PM
Assuming lat 22N, 110W for a general tip of BCS you get the following:
az for 119 is 202.92 (true azimuth) 193.25 (magnetic azimuth), distance to satellite 36411.50 KM
For 110 it's 180.00 (true az), 170.33 (mag az), distance is 36327.09 KM
separation between the two is 22.92 degrees.
For 100 it's 154.79 (true az), 145.13 (mag az), distance is 36431.22 KM
For 101 it's 157.08 (true az), 147.42 (mag az), distance is 36411.50 KM
Separation between the two is 2.29 degrees
As a curious coincidence the path distance to both 119 and 101 is identical. Doesn't mean anything but is kinda cool.
Thanks for the Info.
MrBillM - 11-13-2005 at 06:11 PM
So, with a difference of 2.29 degrees separation, based on your experience, do you think that a single large (size ?) dish would be able to focus on
both ? What kind of peak values do you get with the various dishes used at that Latitude ?
turtleandtoad - 11-13-2005 at 06:29 PM
You have to keep in mind that the satellites footprint has a lot to do with it also. The older satellites had a lot of bleed-over outside of the
operating footprint. This bleed-over is why we have been able to get reception in Baja Sur with a larger dish, and still can get the even channels.
If, as the letter states, they have tightened up on that bleed-over and now have a sharper "edge" to their footprnt, a dish large enough to get both
satellites at the same time may be prohibitive in size or price (or both).
Bajabus - 11-13-2005 at 07:00 PM
2.29 may actually be too close together for you to get two LNB's in tight enough at the focal point, Generally speaking on a round dish you would like
there to be about a min of 3 degrees separation. You can cram them in there but you would end up not being peaked on either sat in order to get them
both in. with the sig so weak as it is I don't know that it would be possible. It's all so close that the only real way to find out is to try it.
Elliptical dishes (along the horizontal axis) are designed to catch a wider spread.
This bird is pretty new and I can find no published EIRP foot print map for it. If we knew the EIRP in db's I could do a link budget calculation to
determine dish size.
We have tried on a 1.8 meter to get D8 but it was a no go. It may just be that there is no signal to be had there at all.
Trying a 2.4mt as an experiment is a pricey test considering the following:
A prodelin 1250 series 2.4M Ku Band Rx/O single pol system that would work for DirecTV runs about $1,500 wholesale, add about $300 plus to yellow
freight it to SD, another 25% to legally import it, then add trucking it down to Cabo and you can see why we are hesitating.
If anyone wants to fund this test I would work with them on getting the equipment delivered at cost.
Bedman - 11-14-2005 at 12:55 AM
Try this site. Worked for me locating my Sat in L. A. Bay.
http://www.hollsco.com/Products/SatCalc/
Bedman
Bajabus - 11-14-2005 at 06:34 AM
Bedman, the issue for the tip of Baja is not locating where the satellite is, but rather if you can pick up the signal and transmit back from where
you are located.
Each satellite has a footprint on the earth and if you are outside that foorprint no amount of correct aiming is going to get you a signal.
Bedman - 11-15-2005 at 01:31 AM
Thanks Bus,
I'm not the strongest signal in orbit when it comes to this Satellite stuff.
Just a side note here for you all. I have a small place in L.A. Bay and have two sat. dishes. one is the 1.2 meter size the other is about 24". The
large dish is brand new and doesn't receive squat. The 24" is old and receives just fine, well...60% signal. I contacted the dealer of the 1.2 dish
and informed him of my problems. He suggested the LNB might be bad or it is not aimed correctly. Told him I have no problem aiming the small one. So,
he sent me a new LNB and I innstalled it. Still no go, no signal on the signal meter. Everything checks out. Any ideas on what I need to do to make
contact with the Sat?
Bedman
burro bob - 11-15-2005 at 09:24 AM
Bedman
Hard to say where your problem lies. If you have two dishes and one works and the other doesn't you can test out each part of the non working dish
setup with the working one.
First do your cables go through any kind of splitter or switch. If they do take it out of the loop to test the rest of the componets.
Second take the lnb off the non working dish and put it on the working one. If you still have a signal then the lnb is good if not you got a bad lnb.
If the lnb test good the next thing to swap is the cable. Again take the cable from the non working dish and put it on the working one. Do you still
have a signal? If not you need to check the ends or replace the cable. If the cable is good then you need to check dish alignment. You don't have to
be locked on to a direct tv bird to check for a signal. Your signal meter will read a signal from any Ku band satellite, your receiver just won't be
able to unscramble it. Any signal indicates that all is working and you have to aim your dish better.
Cables and switches are the problem 90% of the time. A sw 21 switch is required for a two dish setup, a tv coax cable splitter will not work.
Then again you just might be outside of the footprint and you are out of luck.
burro bob
Bedman - 11-17-2005 at 01:09 AM
OOPs....I meant Bob! Thanks Bob (and Bus too when he posts too.)
Hi Bus,Thanks for the guidance. Let me clarify a little. I DO receive sufficient signal on the small dish to watch TV. I would like to have a stronger
signal to alleviate ocassionally fractured pictures, but I can live with it thye way it is, if I have to.
Lets see if I can answer some, if not all those possibilities you posed.
Splitter, no. I have been using the same coax and connections on both dishes. Same coax works on the small one, not the Big one.
I do have a splice connection. Male to male piece that connects two female ends of two lengths of coax. and again, it works on the smaller,
functioning dish fine.
I haven't removed the lnb from the smaller dish. I will do that on our December trip and try it. This sounds like my best hope.
Alignment, I aligned the smaller dish and with the signal meter, level, azimuth angle tool and magnetic compass. These tools made the job very easy, I
had it up and working in 5 minutes. Regardless where I pointed the large dish, I never received a signal. On the small dish, I picked up 3 or 4
satellite signals, 110, 119, 91 and 1 unknown.
I wasn't trying to get two satellites on one dish at that time. I figured that was a job for a professional. I was only looking to aquire the 119. It
has the channels I was concerned with. I might try the 119 and 110 when and if I get the 1.2 meter dish working.
My first attempt to set up and locate was pretty frustrating. The lnb I was supplied with had a narrow collar and the aiming arms (?) that hold the
lnb were incapable of securing it. I even tried (what eles?) Duct tape to increase the diameter of the collar. It did increase the diameter as planned
but I assumed it might be a pretty inaccurate alignment and have no idea as to how accurate it needs to be. How accurate does it need to be to accept
the gathered/reflected signal from the dish?
The supply house I purchased the dish from provided me with a new lnb and mounting collars of multiple sizes. I attempted a second time on our next
trip and still it failed to access a signal. That's when I decided to try the smaller dish and Voila!! It worked! I had read all over the net that the
only way I was going to get any signal was with a larger dish. That's why I purchased it. Just shows to go you, don't believe everything on the net.
Thanks for the input and any other info you pass my way.
As always
Bedman
[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Bedman]
Two Satellites/One LNB
MrBillM - 11-17-2005 at 02:25 PM
The two Dish Network satellites at 110 and 119 can not be received at the same time with a single LNB Dish. They are too far apart. You need either
a Dish 500 setup or move your single LNB Dish if it is on a mast that you can rotate. It's a breeze to move between the two. On my motorhome, I peak
my signal on 119 and then know that 110 is 1/4 inch away on a 1 1/4" dia mast at my latitude.
Your alignment problems could very well be a misalignment of the LNB since the position is fairly critical. I've never worked with any of the larger
after-market Dishes so I'm unaware of LNBs other than the standard Direc, Dish and Universal and they all work well with a factory dish.
Bajabus - 11-18-2005 at 06:37 AM
Definitely try taking the working LNB off the small dish and put it on the large dish. Make sure you take the time to mark it's exact position in the
collar IE: the degree to which it is rotated clockwise or counter clockwise as the case may be. When you put it on the larger dish mimic this exact
position and then start searching for signal.
There are lots of different dishes out there. Does it have an elevation scale on the az/el bracket that you can read or is it just a threaded rod
with no markings that cranks the dish up and down? The reason I ask is that some dishes are called polar offset dishes and the signal actually comes
in anywhere from about 18-22 degrees above where it actually looks like it is pointed. If it is this type of dish you need to take this into account.
If it has elevation markings already on the bracket then they already take this "offset" into account.
Once you find the signal with your known working LNB, lock down the dish and put in the new LNB. Now while you look at the signal meter begin to
rotate the LNB until you have the strongest signal.
Regardless of what style of dish it is, you need to make sure that the LNB when placed in the collar points to the exact center of the dish. Contrary
to what you would think, the larger the dish the narrower it's beam spread so you need to move it and peak it carefully.
There is no reason it should not work better than the smaller dish, especially if you have moved all the working components off the smaller dish.