BajaNomad - Breathing new life into Loreto

Breathing new life into Loreto

Pages: 1 2

BajaNews - 12-11-2005 at 11:56 AM

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/16256.html

BY JIM BUDD
December 11, 2005

Loreto, in Baja California Sur, is scheduled to become the next major travel destination in Mexico. Again. Attempts along these lines have been made several times before. An ancient fishing village that once served as capital of both Baja and Alta California, Loreto has been called Scottsdale with a beach. Just east of Phoenix in Arizona, Scottsdale is one of the most exclusive and expensive resort cities in the United States, a place of spas, golf courses and spectacular hotels.

For more than three decades, Fonatur (the national tourism foundation) has been attempting to convince the world that the future, or, at least a future, lies in Loreto.

The fish are jumping and the palm trees grow high. To one side, hawks soar over the desert, to the other, pelicans skim the sea. The Sierra La Giganta rises up, jutting out of a placid cobalt sea. One can fish, snorkel, scuba dive, frolic among sea lions and explore country virtually unexplored. Why the overworked and overstressed did not come pouring in years ago baffles me.

Now, in the forth decade, things appear to be happening. A Canadian developer, David Butterfield, is in the process of convincing anyone with a bit of cash that Loreto will be a wonderful place to retire. And a bit of cash is all that is required. Shorefront property in Loreto costs about one fifth what it does in California.

Butterfield?s company, Loreto Bay Villages, interestingly, is based in Scottsdale. In Loreto in less than two years, customers have plunked down more than US$100 million. Those who are not prepared to retire yet will be able to place their units in a rental pool and we will have something like a horizontal hotel available.

That Fonatur found this international developer may be its greatest triumph of the 21st century. We do not hear very much any more about the Escalera N?utica or any of the other projects so publicized a few years ago, but Loreto Bay is moving ahead. Eventual goal is the building of 6,000 villas and 1,000 condominium units, with a spa, beach club and shops to serve all whose who move in.

This is all the more remarkable after so many failures. As it did in Cancun, then Ixtapa and Los Cabos, the Fonatur of yore built the first luxury hotel in Loreto. It followed this with a golf course and then the John McEnroe Tennis Center, named for its "touring pro" (he was always off touring), a bad-tempered tennis star of the early 1980s who now few people remember.

"Build it and they will come," was the theme of the 1989 film, "Field of Dreams," and may have motivated Fonatur back then. But even with a new international airport and Aerom?xico flying in daily, few tourists came to Loreto. The luxury hotel, originally a Presidente, went through several name changes, became clothing optional for a while, closed, and now is open again as The Whales Inn. Whale-watching does bring people to Loreto, but only during January and February. Once Aerom?xico began operating as a private company, it began flying elsewhere. It has since returned, but, from what I am told, 10 years ago Loreto was being served by only one flight a week.

The early devotees, sports fishermen for the most part, continued making their way to Loreto, driving down in their recreational vehicles or flying in aboard their own planes. The village has a sprinkling of small, cozy hotels and a few surprisingly excellent restaurants. The Posada de las Flores is one of the most attractive boutique inns on the peninsula. And now Loreto has another luxury hotel, built and owned by Fonatur but managed by Camino Real. It is not the most polished link in the chain.

As might be expected, more than a few people view the development of the Loreto area with alarm. There are those in town who would be quite happy to keep things as they are and not see their paradise turn into a Baja version of Acapulco. Nationalists may soon grumble that this is another example of how foreigners are grabbing up Mexico?s best beachfront property. Ecological groups are concerned, especially an international organization known as the Nature Conservancy, which says it is monitoring the situation in Loreto.

David Butterfield claims that he is completely in favor of that. "Our company is part of the Trust for Sustainable Development," he says. "We intend to demonstrate that human development can actually enhance a region." Cynics will sneer, and it is difficult not to join them, but just maybe the man is sincere.

Now 53, Butterfield claims Loreto is where he wants to retire and, more than that, wants it to be the place he is remembered for. Maybe he is one of those people who will leave the world a better place than he found it.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-11-2005 at 01:20 PM

Only if he is by chance a "Water Witch"!!
that is one of those people who take a Green Elm Limb, put it in both hands an "Witch for Water"

It is hope that this will occur otherwise:

Where do you get theWater???????????

Skeet/Loreto

jerry - 12-11-2005 at 07:01 PM

who ever wrote this isnt up to date never even mentioned alaska airlines flying in 3 times a week other things are missing too beware of the hoopla

Sharksbaja - 12-11-2005 at 08:37 PM

ho hum........ but what a perfect example of "second hand information"

Phil S - 12-11-2005 at 08:44 PM

Well, we were there in late November, and just what they have done all summer is unbelievable. People are starting to move into the homes now.
I talked with Darlene Tait, and she says now over 500 homes sold, totalling over $200 million. They now have 24 hour police patrols. The water pressure in the existing homes has been increased. Finally, enough pressure to turn off the kitchen sink spray hose from dripping. Starting to cool off down there now. Gets to the high 50's or low 60's at night.
Great for sleeping. Noticed at Puerto Escondido there is a new building being constructed right on the concrete sea wall. Anyone know what that is? Another rumor says that there is a Mexican Investment group has purchased all the land at the puerto, and should close soon. How interesting. And two weeks in Cabo sure was an eye opener. My gosh, as far as you can see from coming into town from LaPaz to Cabo, houses being built for the Mexican workers. And after spending about four hours in LaPaz pooping around, Mexican homes in construction all over also.
Stopped at San Jose del Cabo, and viewed the marina that is in construction. No signs of any homes being built yet, but did drive further on a new sometimes paved in cement most of time still dirt. But roads everywhere with utilities being installed. This project must be humongus. I'd guess maybe somewhere over a 1,000 homes will be built in just this subdivision. Skeet. Where are they getting their water????? Arrived back in the states Thursday evening. Crossed TJ border with just a twenty minute stop. Hardly any cars in the lines. It was 5:30 p.m. Wed. evening. We drove right through the vendor booths, and maybe twenty cars back from the crossing. Roads in great shape other than the usual occation pot holes. Seems to be getting a little wider too. Northbound military stops had a couple abandoned check points. Those that were open only kept us there a few minutes. One overyly polite group got a Christmas gift of a dart board & four darts that I was bringing back to the states. After giving it to them, and mucho gracious's, one said, "no Playboy"????? So I'm going to look around the second hand stores and see if I can accumulate some for the return trip to Loreto. Happy holidays & season greeting from Phil & Wendy

bajalou - 12-11-2005 at 09:51 PM

Some of the soldiers get to go home for Christmas too - I've seen some of the checkpoints closed at this time of year before.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-12-2005 at 09:39 AM

Phil ; Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!
thanks for the Good Report.
I guess we will have to wait until a couple of Hundred Homes are occupied at Loreto Bay before we can tell about the Water~

Stay Happy~

Skeet/Loreto - 12-12-2005 at 09:41 AM

Phil: Many years ago I would go to the Garage Sales and collect Playboys at 10 cents each to take south.
Always had two or three laying in the back of the pick up, so when I was stopped, the soldiers were only interested in the Playboys!!!

bajajudy - 12-12-2005 at 11:26 AM

Phil
Actually there will be 2000 homes in Puertoloscabos. And 2 or 3 have already been started in the Fundadores subdivision. The one owned by Sanchez-Navaro, the developer, is almost complete.
As I have been saying, this project makes Loreto Bay look like child's play. It is huge and there are plans for all the way to Shipwrecks that include a Maya Palace, something from Pueblo Bonito, a polo/golf club just past Buzzards and before Punta Gorda. The list goes on and on.
Thanks for the report.

Humpbacks?

Cincodemayo - 12-12-2005 at 11:51 AM

How come they show a Humpback? This isn't Hawaii...

[Edited on 12-12-2005 by Cincodemayo]

Small pangas in the marina...

Cincodemayo - 12-12-2005 at 11:57 AM

Are some of these owned by Navarro? Must be the $$ trickledown factor.

[Edited on 12-12-2005 by Cincodemayo]

Gotta love it!

flyfishinPam - 12-12-2005 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNews
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/16256.html

BY JIM BUDD
December 11, 2005

.... the Fonatur of yore built the first luxury hotel in Loreto. It followed this with a golf course and then the John McEnroe Tennis Center, named for its "touring pro" (he was always off touring), a bad-tempered tennis star of the early 1980s who now few people remember....

And the "horizontal hotel" whatever the hell that is! :lol:

Worldtraveller - 12-12-2005 at 08:25 PM

Did McEnroe ever have money invested or another stake (aside from lending his name for a few bucks) in the tennis center? Has his name been removed?

Skeet/Loreto - 12-13-2005 at 09:52 AM

MacEnroe got $400,000 for putting his name on the Tennis club and allowing a billboard at the entrance "proclaiming this as The Home Of John MCEnroe!!

Vicky Carr got $50,000 for showing up and putting on a HellofShow at the Club. I was there to see and Hear this great Artist.

The only time I ver saw the Hotel full was when The Sr. George Bush made a Visit, the Ford Motor Co. had an event one time.

On Friday Nites the Hotel would have a Great Buffet, with the food being brought in by Air, Music and just a good Party.
Skeet/Loreto

Phil S - 12-13-2005 at 12:51 PM

I think the pic of the boats at the port is an illusion, or a vision. I can't remember even finding an opening from the sea into the marina yet. Did see the construction of the long arm going out from the beach with lots of equipment around. Certainly no boats. Lots of panga's (notice I'm spelling this correctly now) on the beach next to the project. I'm told there is a great restaurant near the beach, but couldn't find anything that tempted us. Wonder where the breaking point will be in the peninsula, after all the building from Cabo & San Jose del Cabo & other points north will be when it happens????????????????/ Going to be maybe Loreto? Maybe just south of there. Maybe Cabo will be in the future the equivelant of Sunken Atlantis. Maybe Loreto will then be "the point"!!!!!!!!!!Imagine that!!!

Cincodemayo - 12-13-2005 at 01:05 PM

Phil S...Hola! Just got an email notifying the Loreto Bay owners that the El Camino has been purchased by Loreto Bay and will become the Inn at Loreto Bay. Another feather in the cap so to speak! Hope to be down that way in March but will notify you guys so we can do drinks and dinner....

bajajudy - 12-13-2005 at 03:15 PM

Phil et al
I have sailed all over the world and nothing stops a customs agent/immgration officer/any male official faster than a Playboy strategically placed within his view. Works like a charm everytime.
Peanut butter works in some areas too. Kinda like the cokes and stuff we all give to the guys at times.
And yes you are correct, that photo is from some other resort. It will be a long time before "yachts" are bobbing in the marina. They did float a dock this week. They are making them here. They have huge pieces of styrofoam that they put into metal box and pour concrete around them, flip them over and" voila" a floating dock.
As for the rest of the peninsula, I think it is safe for a while. There is still plenty of land to pillage here. Should keep them busy for a decade or two.

Don Alley - 12-14-2005 at 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Phil
Actually there will be 2000 homes in Puertoloscabos. And 2 or 3 have already been started in the Fundadores subdivision. The one owned by Sanchez-Navaro, the developer, is almost complete.
As I have been saying, this project makes Loreto Bay look like child's play. It is huge and there are plans for all the way to Shipwrecks that include a Maya Palace, something from Pueblo Bonito, a polo/golf club just past Buzzards and before Punta Gorda. The list goes on and on.
Thanks for the report.

Only 2000 homes? At Loreto Bay they're building 6000! (Up from the 5,000 figure a year or so ago). And 1,000 condos. And more golf! Stores! Restaurants! an authentic hillside village! And there will be a new marina at the existing condos. And some say they have an option to develop all the way to the Airport. Or beyond to Colonia Zaragosa (south Loreto). MORE MORE MORE!

I think Loreto Bay is a developer's Black Hole that will in time swallow the earth, including your small, petty PuertoLosCabos! BWAHAHAHAHA (evil laugh)

Our travesty is bigger than your travesty! :lol:

bajajudy - 12-14-2005 at 09:22 AM

jeez
I guess I will stay where I am.
I, too, always wanted to live in authentic Mexican village, that used to be an authentic Mexican fishing village.

Dave - 12-14-2005 at 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
Our travesty is bigger than your travesty! :lol:

Travesty?

Apparently, Mexicans don't feel this way. It was Mexicans who sold the land and Mexican officials who issued the enviornmental/construction permits.

wilderone - 12-14-2005 at 10:28 AM

"Apparently, Mexicans don't feel this way. It was Mexicans who sold the land and Mexican officials who issued the enviornmental/construction permits."

FONATUR is not "Mexicans". John McCarthy would sell his Mother if she had anything to do with developing the most desireable beaches of Mexico. It is a travesty, regardless of what those shortsighted, greedy bastards are doing - whatever their nationality. The most cursory research will reveal the environmental, social and cultural travesty that Cancun has wrought. Baja California Sur has already suffered (Cabo), and will continue to deteriorate into a shameless facsimile of Southern California or Miami, losing the essence of anything uniquely Baja Californian. Indeed, a travesty. Those who champion these efforts are ignorant co-conspirators of the destruction. And make no mistake - this is not "development" it is destruction - pure and simple.

Loreto

tehag - 12-14-2005 at 12:42 PM

Wilderone:

If you develop any strong feelings on the subject, let the Nomads know, OK?

Skeet/Loreto - 12-14-2005 at 05:29 PM

This is very much like San Francisco, Scottsdale AZ. New Orleans, and other places that were developed by PrivatemInterest.
Just because agroup of young Eco"s think it is Bad does not make it SO!!

Skeet/Loreto

It is the people that make Cabo so Bad, not the Beach!!

capt. mike - 12-15-2005 at 06:41 AM

hahahahahahahha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gotta love what development discussions bring on! Knot headed liberal eco-nutz vs. the capitalistic farsighted venturists. I saw an article once wherein some were deploring the fact that buildings were going up to 5 stories in ht. blocking views and creating unhealthy densities, the circa was 1880s in New York city! Same old story.....different day. Same outcome....progress.

Skeet, i give Playboys to the federales at the El Gallito strip when i come in, they love it!!

Skeet/Loreto - 12-15-2005 at 09:03 AM

We are having a "Development Problem in Amarillo Texas:
Some of the new Neighbors with out Garages are buying and puting up Carports insted. $500 Deductible on Hail Damage for a Car. Other neighbors thinks it "Degades the neighbohood"

Different Strokes for Different Folks"! Skeet

elgatoloco - 12-15-2005 at 09:16 AM

Cinco- Lots of Humpback whales in the Sea of Cortez.

elizabeth - 12-15-2005 at 09:34 AM

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/14/MNGN...

Try the above link to the San Francisco Chronicle...or just go to the chronicle website and search "humpback". There is a great story of divers here saving a humpback who became entangeled in lines from crab pots here on her migration to Baja.

There are three spots that Humpbacks migrate to in the fall...Baja, Japan, and Hawaii. Most do go to Hawaii.

elizabeth - 12-15-2005 at 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Just because agroup of young Eco"s think it is Bad does not make it SO!!

Skeet/Loreto

Doesn't make it not so either!

And just because a Mexican government agency is part of a project doesn't make it environmentally sound. There is a major problem with building a development that will double or triple a population in an area that has an aquifer that is being depleted, a sewage treatment plant that is marginal, not to speak of the current social problems.

It isn't very helpful to call people who are concerned with the environment names (Capt. Mike). If you have some evidence that there is not an environmental problem, talking about it would be more responsible.

wilderone - 12-15-2005 at 10:35 AM

"Just because agroup of young Eco"s think it is Bad does not make it SO!!"

Is this supposed to be some kind of logic? what absolute nonsense. I'm picking up where JR left off - P-nche gringos!

Loreto

tehag - 12-15-2005 at 11:09 AM

I don't consider myself a young eco nut, but I do have some concerns about what is happening, has happened, and will likely continue to happen in Baja California. I am not a got mine guy, nor am I against development or progress. What I am, though, is a Bajaphile who can see that healthy, inteligent dialogue is far more likely to help assure an agreeable future than spatting over lables and slogans.

Let's shout less and talk more, shall we?

Water, infrastructure, population, etc. are perfectly valid points upon which to question developers and authorities, and we should continue to press for answers and action on these fronts.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-15-2005 at 11:17 AM

Lis;

It also does not make it TRUE!

We, Ole Farts, have been so bombarded by the Eco's in the past 20 years that now, each time something is Posted, the thought is "Its just another Eco-Nut}.

Some of their stuff is "Good Stuff", but lately some off it has been simply Foolish.!
Such as the P>E>T>A stuff Can you even imagine How many people would die if they did nt have Chicken and Beef to Eat.??
Where would we Stack all the People if a few of them did not go to Loreto and Live in the Villages, maybe no water, or go to Palm Springs, which is overloaded??
i do not profess to have an Answer but I know that it cannot be solved by those Eco's who have no other solution other than Stop All eating of Beef and Chicken!!!

Anonymous - 12-16-2005 at 04:40 PM

With the growth explosion in Cabo where does their H2o come from?
In the Coachella Valley where rainfall is almost non existent where does their water come from...Palm Springs all the way to Indio...Golf courses galore and seems the building is escalating. I remember when Palm Desert was just filled with Date palms with the Date Festival...no mas. The land owners made more $$$ selling the palms to all the strip malls being built than the property was worth....now the land is like gold. No different in Baja only it's way more expansive down yonder..with the Mexican Government's blessing.

Don Alley - 12-16-2005 at 05:57 PM

Where will Loreto development water come from?

I've heard this from several locals... Loreto's government thinks that their water supplies are adequate for the development planned in the area. First of all, per capita water consumption in town is double normal; excess "usage" is attributed to leaks in the poorly maintained system. The city plans to begin metering water, and collecting more funds, which will be used to repair the leaky system. In addition, there are additional wells at the area where Loreto's water is pumped. And the city believes there are other sources that can be tapped.

Now I did speak with the University of Arizona hydrologist who said that the existing aquifer is receding and does not have the capacity for anywhare near projected growth. He did not believe Loereto Bay's water development plans were sound. His findings are part of a report on Fonatur's development plans.

Officials in Loreto reject those findings. Who is correct? Don't ask me.

In any event, perhaps the scarcity of water (if there is a scarcity) is only an impediment to small developers with limited capital. Loreto Bay and perhaps other rumored developers are in a different league; they can solve the water problem simply by throwing tons of money at it. Desalinization is the obvious course of action. They'll get their water one way or another. What the municipality will do is another matter. While Loreto Bay seems to promise to develop all the water for its own needs AND water for Loreto, it probably will not be enough for growth pegged at 10 new Loreto residents for each Loreto Bay unit. So far, I don't know where Loreto Bay's current household water is coming from, but I believe for the present it comes from the same pipeline as Loreto's?

Ken Bondy - 12-16-2005 at 07:18 PM

elizabeth

Add one more place to your list. The Atlantic humpback population (about 6000 whales) breeds and calves every winter and spring in an area of the Caribbean just north of the Dominican Republic called the "Silver Banks". It is a spectacular area in which to view humpbacks.

++Ken++

Loreto water

tehag - 12-16-2005 at 09:03 PM

That is correct; Loreto is supplying the water for the couple of move ins at Loreto Bay. There is no actual construction being done to change this. Economies of scale haven't yet reached the level where it makes sense for LB to start construction of their desal plant.

elizabeth - 12-16-2005 at 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
elizabeth

Add one more place to your list. The Atlantic humpback population (about 6000 whales) breeds and calves every winter and spring in an area of the Caribbean just north of the Dominican Republic called the "Silver Banks". It is a spectacular area in which to view humpbacks.

++Ken++

You're right, I should have said Pacific Humpbacks...

Santiago - 12-17-2005 at 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley

an authentic hillside village!

Can someone please to a good JR for me?

DA: I'm sure you had tounge-in-cheek.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2005 at 08:36 AM

Old Story-

Shortly after the Golf Course was finished, it was using 200,000 Gallons a Day.

The Ranchers at San Juan had sold most of their Water rights.

The People of Loreto demand more water and the Govt. came in a Drilled 9 New Wells in the mountains above Loreto.

At Ligui- Angus McKensie paid for Drilling a Well in the Mountains above Ligui, the govt?local people installed and now use that for the water in their small area.

The only time there will be enough Water is if it keeps raining in the Mountains. Time will tell if Loreto has another 7 year Drought.

Skeet/Loreto

Phil S - 12-17-2005 at 09:56 AM

Loreto Bay is prepared to build a desalt plant as the time presents itself. They were "assured" by the Mexican Gov't that there was enough water for their project. I'm sure that data was provided to David Butterfield and his project managers to satisfy them, before investing the amount of money they have done, before they even started ground breaking. No one with David & Jim Grogans background is going to go into this "blindfolded" just for the money. Meet David & Jim and you'll then know that they aren't "just in it for the money". There is more to it than that. Plus, plans are in effect for eventually watering the golf course and roadways with recycled & reprocessed sewer treatment water. Give these folks some credit for knowing what their doing. I think Capt. Mike knows exactly what I'm saying. Mike. Any chance you might know Jim Grogans reputation up there in Arizona?
Skeet. Wish I had arrived the same time you had in Loreto, and could see the 'slow growth' during your days there. Then you leave, and suddenly it's starting to explode. Did you know that was about to happen???? That why you boogied out? I still chuckle at "your last lot you sold there", turns out to be a fellow in Roseburg Oregon that I know. And is he excited about getting down there and start building. Something "catching" for sure about Loreto. And I"m sure we "ain't" seen nothing yet. And Pam. Hang onto your money belt. Business will get better for all this activity. I'm happy to see it happening. Not for my own needs. I'm just a visitor down there. But for the locals. It will mean more paved streets. More businesses to increase the selection of products needed but not represented there yet. Sure. More traffic problems. I don't like that thought. But it's the overall picture that really matters. More money means a better way of life for all. Who knows. Maybe Cabo Wabo & a few others will be coming too!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 12-17-2005 by Phil S]

friend of baja - 12-17-2005 at 10:52 AM

Thanks for the honest post Phil. I have not met anyone, who after meeting Jim Grogan or David Butterfield, has any other impression other than they are absolutely committed to the vision of a truly sustainable community. They exude honesty and integrity, which is probably why so many buyers are existing friends or previous buyers in their developments.

I think it is also important for people to realize, when they point fingers at Loreto Bay Co. for servicing concerns like, sewer, water and electricity that it is actually Fonatur, as part of their 25 year committment to the partnership, that is responsible for providing these services. As part of their sustainability vision, Loreto Bay Co. has independently committed to providing more potable water than they use, more power than they consume and more biodiversity than was there before they came.

vandenberg - 12-17-2005 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

[ That's very assuring!! :lol:

I think it is also important for people to realize, when they point fingers at Loreto Bay Co. for servicing concerns like, sewer, water and electricity that it is actually Fonatur, as part of their 25 year committment to the partnership, that is responsible for providing these services.

Phil and Friend

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2005 at 11:24 AM

Yes Phil{ One of the Main Reasons that I "Bugged out" of Loreto that for Virginia and I, who had lived there 17 years full-time, it was starting to change and be like Newport Beach Calif, Palm Springs, or many other -Places changed by a large group=
I saw the failure of the following all contolled by the Fonatur
Purto Escondido
El Presidente
Golf couse
Tennis club
Nopollo

I met and knew Salvut who offerred me a Job developing up North{ which in my mind may become the best Area}

We had a Multi-million dollar Monstrosity built next door, another is now bing Built on the South side--Just Like palo Verde Calif.

I guess What I am saying is that -You Youngsters can have it all- I hoe that the villages get the water, it will help the people of Loreto, The Mexicano People who I value much more that some of the Americanos.

Some How in my life i found that I was not a "Groupe" person to live so close .

As to Business of fishing, Fish are getting scrace within 25 Miles of Loreto,with and increase in charters it will certainly strain the Waters.

I predict that there will be a time in the near future when all Fishing will be stopped!!
If enough of the Fish Lovers move into the villages, get together, start their own type of Sierra club, you will see Loreto turn into Illwaco Washington.

35 years of my life have been spent in andaround L

reto. The People are its Value- The Beauty of its Sea and Mountains is Awesome. It just got crowded with too many people trying to empress others of their Kind that their Bigger House made them "Bigger"

How sad

Skeet/Loreto
Casa of Mucho Mejures
Mosco

Phil S - 12-17-2005 at 11:44 AM

Skeet. I'm not completely convinced that "bigger" has anything to do with "keeping up with the Jones", or look at me, I've got more than you. Or, Bigger House made them "Bigger". In my case, I moved from a 1,500 sq. ft. house two car garage thqat I built in l979, then sold in l990, & built a four car garage 3,500 sf home. I needed the four car garage for my three cars & motorhome. I need the square feet because I had accumlated "things" over the years that required more space. I love ping pong. Got a place for it. I love reading. Have a library for the books. I love old movies. Got a place for them. I love vintage cameras. Got a place for them. Wife likes to paint. Got a room for that. Love my computer & etc. Got a room for that. I collect things. Got room for that. We worked hard. Saved our money. Invested in real estate rather than gambling over the years. Light drinkers. (no big booze expenditure) Non smokers. Two things come to light as I write this. A brother in laws folks passed away. Both were in public school system all their working lives. So nice retirement. BUTTTTTT. They loved traveling all over the world. When they passed away, huge mortgage on their home. And was a small modest one. Little equity. Very little savings. But they did what they loved to do. Another family that I know, drive older autos, because they have been investing in the Oregon Lottery big time every payday for years. They like to entertain & spend big for that. They like going to the area Seven Feathers Casino in Canyonville. And they have not seen "the big one yet". They live from payday to payday.
The folks that build "bigger homes" aren't always, trying to out do their neighbors. It's an economic thing, as I see it. Some subscribe to the "don't flaunt it if you've got it". Nothing wrong with that. But what's wrong with being comfortable if you can afford it? IF they are second homes that are huge. Most likely their "other home" is huge also. I can't imagine someone "over building" a home, just to show off. But that's just my point of view based on my own personal experiences. Phil S

jerry - 12-17-2005 at 01:02 PM

in short i feel he who make the bucks get to spend the bucks anyway they see fit
and thats the way it should be capitalism at its best have a good one jerry

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2005 at 01:58 PM

Phils and Jerry; Different strokes for different Folks.
there are many good people who live in Big Houses. Should of said :Folks who act Like they are Bigger just because they build a Big House.
It was the Actions of the Individual that turned me Off.

Next thing I knew they started an Association so they could keep the Mexicans off the Beach in Front.

Sorry I did not mean to to Paint such Broad Brush..

Skeet/Loreto

A very entertaining thread

Sharksbaja - 12-17-2005 at 02:48 PM

It simply amazes me the extent some will go to to assauge their guilt. Big homes are like... so commonplace now it sure doesn't shock or surprise folks much anymore.
This Loreto growth topic has been thrown back & forth to the tune of rhetoric I'm afraid. We still need "real" solutions not promises.

Grogan & Butterball got to be big chiefs because they know exactly how to play the development game. Unlike some places however their grandiose plans (and all that follows nearby) will most likely succeed at the rate of Bajas' capitalistic expansion.

If it takes a nuclear power plant to run Baja Sur, well, they just might go for it. Gimme da money! Just think, that little (by some accounts) project in Loreto may become the behemoth after all. That would make many capitalists happy.
Who gives a crap for "the way it is". Culture and it's inherent society can change overnight. Ask the east cape residents. Look at Rosarito. The new laws governing ownership of coastal lands has opened up "Pandoras' Box"

Some folks get it and some folks don't!
It ain't rocket science. Common sense plays well on this subject.
I'm just amazed there isn't more. :no:

turtleandtoad - 12-17-2005 at 03:14 PM

What's changed in Ilwaco? I've fished out of there for years, but haven't been there in the last 3 years.

[Edited on 12-17-2005 by turtleandtoad]

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2005 at 04:03 PM

Toad
For many years that was one of the busist and Best Salmon fishing Spots in the West!! Many times I went there and had to sleep in my Car as all Hotels and places to sleep were Full.
Now it is like a Ghost Town as far as fishing is concerned.
It is still good fishing but not anything as it was 15 years ago.

Skeet

Don Alley - 12-17-2005 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by friend of baja
Thanks for the honest post Phil. I have not met anyone, who after meeting Jim Grogan or David Butterfield, has any other impression other than they are absolutely committed to the vision of a truly sustainable community. They exude honesty and integrity, which is probably why so many buyers are existing friends or previous buyers in their developments.

I think it is also important for people to realize, when they point fingers at Loreto Bay Co. for servicing concerns like, sewer, water and electricity that it is actually Fonatur, as part of their 25 year committment to the partnership, that is responsible for providing these services. As part of their sustainability vision, Loreto Bay Co. has independently committed to providing more potable water than they use, more power than they consume and more biodiversity than was there before they came.

I have met Butterfield. Seems like a nice guy, but I still think his mother dropped him on his head. You may think he exudes honesty and integrity, but I think his development will exude something else.

Fonatur is responsible for providing services? Oh come on. If water and electricity is the responsibility of Fonatur, then Loreto Bay's promises of "sustainable" use and development of those resources is pretty hollow. Good grief, in consecutive sentences you say Fonatur is responsible for water, then you say Loreto Bay is committed to provide water. And considering Fonatur's record in the Loreto area (Nopolo in general, the "convention center," Puerto Escondido, Chili Wili's), good luck if the buyers at Loreto Bay are depending on them for anything.

And since the government's (Fonatur's) own estimates predict an increase in Loreto proper's population of 10 people for each unit developed, I should hope any development is required to provide the city with additional water, as recommended by the university study.

I just have two questions @ LB ~

flyfishinPam - 12-18-2005 at 01:50 PM

Will the homeowners in Loreto Bay be flushing their TP down the toilet?

Or will they be collecting it in a trashbin that their maids will have to clean daily?

bajajudy - 12-18-2005 at 02:43 PM

It seems to me that the latest trend in developing is the "I am truly a good person and would never do anything against the environment or you to make more money." That is what people want to hear so that is what is told.
This is not a personal attack on anyone or anyplace, just my take on the latest sales pitch for baby boomers who want to live in exactly the places they describe.
Only time will tell how it all plays out. But the warm and fuzzy sales pitch is not anything new.

Packoderm - 12-18-2005 at 03:06 PM

I think that environmental consciosness in Mexican resort development is not entirely a farce. The Copacobana in Quintana Roo was built without the usual obliterating of the existing mangroves. The hotel is set back about a 100 yards with a couple of wooden boardwalks set over the mangroves. Most of the recreation amenities are set out in front of the beach. I liked this setup in that I didn't feel that I was getting any less of a resort experience than anybody else because of some guy looking down on me from his overhanging balcony while I was trying to enjoy the beach. I know this is just a small thing, but I'll take the small concessions over a slap in the face any day.

jerry - 12-18-2005 at 04:41 PM

ok ok loreto is a place a lot of people want to have a place at does anyone here really think that it would be better to develope it miss match as it has been, piece meal?? like cabo

do you think that a mis guided enviormentalist with a plan is gong to do any worse??
there coming it will be built
have a good one
as for the nuclear power plant i think its one of the most effecent cleanest way of producing energy and its being used all over the world and except the enviromentalist got there way in the U.S. and now we pay big time
most enviromentalists causes are backed up by big money and fought by well meaning people who think there saving the people from them selves not realising that it usally backfires and the result is just what big money needed to control a situation.
most things dont just happen by accedent theres a plan
thefishing on the west coast?? to break the little guy so big busness has world controll the US fisherman were sold out to intrest in other countrys
the spotted owl was just a ploy to stop logging on public land so now private land owners, big money have controll the little logger cant servive. so the seperation between the poor and the ritch is being impowered by the same people that say there trying to save us from ourselves :?:

have a good one jerry

I probably shouldn't wade in... but

djh - 12-18-2005 at 07:37 PM

but.... Loreto is still a nice town with many good local people (and the friendliest cats and dogs in Baja).

And I don't have to tell any of you, how beautiful the mountains, sea, and area are.

I fell in Love with Loreto the first time I was there - a couple decades ago.... I was travelling on the cheap, a student, in an old VW Camper that I built an engine for... And after a couple days and nights in Loreto, I decided.... SOMEday, I would love to be able to spend more time here. Loreto has always been a special place for me. CSL once was also, but... that was waaaaay back.

So, after working these last 25 years as a musician, teacher, and counselor, my wife and I ARE going to spend more time in Loreto, and we feel fortunjate to be able to do so.

Like Skeet, we're not "big development" types... We love the international, language, and cultural experiences and learning that we experience in "old" Loreto, in Mexico, and also where we've travelled in Asia and Europe.

So, we're buying in town.... I'll be down in Feb. to close, and I feel prety darn lucky.... (I guess I feel MORE so while it is 0 degrees F. today, with a foot of snow in my yard here in N. Idaho... :rolleyes:

...)

A community is place and people. I still love Loreto - the place. And I'm thankful for my few friends there, and hope to make many more in the years ahead. My wife's genuine warmth, handmade Asian cooking, (the best sushi rolls) and her love of life and adventure will have you stopping by to say hi (and "mmmm WHAT is that wonderful smell?...." in no time. We welcome new friends and new perspectives and always love good stories.

With the Loreto Bay Development bringing many newbies into the area (good or bad... it seems to be happening..) I hope those of you who've loved Loreto a long time will help them "adjust" - and appreciate what it is that has made and still makes Loreto a special place.

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by djh]

Anonymous - 12-18-2005 at 08:04 PM

ill bet that all the accadents (human Life) loss with nucular power wont wont add up anything compared to the oil industry more lives lost on drilling piping and refining by 10 fold and just add all the other deathes like the war polution, as an clean, safeand econamical resorce its the best
hell look at the rest of the world while we sit with our finger in our noses
we gave the world the tecnoligy but were too stupid to use it our selves when our ecoligists could have made a real mark against polution they could see the forest for the trees and were lead down the road by big money oil have a good one jerry

vandenberg - 12-18-2005 at 08:09 PM

DJH

Love your attitude and would like to get to know you. Let us know when you plan to get here and maybe we get together and talk about the goings-on here over a libation. Been here for 13 years permanent and love the place. My wife says, she wouldn't live anywhere else, and weve been all over.

vandenberg - 12-18-2005 at 08:11 PM

Anonymous

Knew it was you Jerry by your writing style. Please , don't try writing a book. :biggrin:

That's a good attitude djh

Sharksbaja - 12-18-2005 at 08:31 PM

You will surely be a welcome addition. Most likely you will enjoy Loreto for years to come. The fact that so many are seeking solace elsewhere does hint strongly at the pace of change however.
What appeals to you now may change faces over the next ten years in a big way. The unfortunate downside like I've said many times before is the magnetic attraction these developments have. Of course if you are comfortable with new stuff springing up all over the area, then I would think you will be happy then as you are now. Not trying to pop your bubble.
The huge amount of publicity this development has garnered is rich fodder for the big wheels of progress. If you dial in to what the realtors are experiencing right now you would feel the rush. It's like cathing a cold except only for the developers. Spreads like a virus with no cure.

I love Loreto too and trust you do also. I know YOU won't be the monger of tourists and wealthy transplants. Don't trust the big guys, they speak out of their burros. It's all about da money. JMHO
jerry, i agree with you about nuke power plants. The science has gotten much better and it may be possible soon to make the risk(s) considerably less.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-18-2005 at 08:58 PM

DJH
Thanks for having the right attitude about Loreto; The Good people and their children will , I hope, make Loreto in the years to come as they have in the years past- A good Place.

I still miss Alvaro Murillo-Fisherman-Sea expert- Father of 5 Girls-Friend-and just an all around good Guy.

Rodridgo, Mundo, Bianco all who helped Virginia and I to build Rancho Sonrisa.--Manuel M, Dr. Collins, Arturo Sucrey, Domingo Pres.

jerry - 12-18-2005 at 10:15 PM

vandenburg :lol:

never fear

Phil C - 12-18-2005 at 10:15 PM

DJH, Your story sounds so familier. When I met my wife, I told her "I know this nice little town..." turns out she had been flying there for a few years on a charter airline and loved the place. We decided to be in town,but didn't realize how close to the centro we would end up. The most pleasent suprise we had after buying/building was the comfort of the neighbors. Thier honest welcoming and sincere care for us and the welfare of the neighborhood,and town in general made us feel so much at home. We have made wonderfull new friends, both Mexican and American, while we have been fortunate enough to spend more time in Loreto. Changes are coming, but we can enjoy the people and thier culture for a while longer. Loreto will grow and change as it will... we are blessed to have a part in it at this time. As my uncle told me .....Life is short, go fish.

jerry - 12-18-2005 at 10:19 PM

welcome to loreto djh i love it too

Thanks!

djh - 12-19-2005 at 08:08 AM

A hearty thank you to Vandenberg, Phil C, Jerry, and Sharksbaja! It seems Shing and I are already making some new friends~ :wow:

Seems the magic of a special place like Loreto really does get under our skin in a profound way. Maybe it is related to Bajajudy's signature "The more we are separated from nature, the unhappier we get.." There is so much natural beauty in Loreto.... we've become infected and contagious!

I look forward to meeting each of you in person soon and learning more about our soon to be new home ~ from each of you.

I have a small trailerable sailboat I hope to bring down in the future and a couple of kayaks that I'd love to share. And maybe you can help this Idaho flyfisherman learn a few saltwater tricks!

Life is good!

Skeet/Loreto - 12-19-2005 at 09:11 AM

May I suggest, one of the first things to do after getting to know your Neighbors, is to take a Walk up the old road to San Javier. On the way up you get a very Good view of allof Loreto.
Next get in Touvh with some of the old time fisherman from both North and South of Loreto, have them take you and show you the manythings about the Sea Of Cortez in and Around Loreto.Learn the Weather and Water around Loreto and you will b able to do and see many places that are not over used.
Find the Hot water just South of Pulpito for a good place to Skinny Dip and maybe catch a White Lobster! Just North of Pulpito off of the Next Point you can catch Ling Cod{Greenies} In the Spring time you can catch "Fire cackers" in you Kyack. Slow troll a small Cast Master near the rocks.

Oh! there are so many good Memories!!

Have a Good time

Skeet/Loreto

Don Alley - 12-19-2005 at 12:09 PM

djh

Lots of folks here from Idaho, and I'm from Montana...but even though I owned I fly shop there I don't flyfish here, at least not yet. I fish from a kayak, too.

We live in town, nice neighborhood with nice neighbors. My wife's in the cocina now teaching a neighbor how to make chocalate chip cookies. She's nicer than me, if she posted here her posts would be nice like yours. :lol:

Skeet?

Don Alley - 12-19-2005 at 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Rodridgo, Mundo, Bianco all who helped Virginia and I to build Rancho Sonrisa.--Manuel M, Dr. Collins, Arturo Sucrey, Domingo Pres.

Skeet, did you know Dr. Collins is in the hospital in La Paz? He crashed his car into a telephone pole in town, and was seriously injured.

Progress

Ranger Rich - 12-19-2005 at 01:57 PM

I don't normaly comment on these threads but some of it reminded me of two examples of growth/change and the impacts on overall quality of life in an area that I know about :

I grew up and lived in Santa Barbara CA but moved away in the 80's. It had lost it's charm for me by then. I know people who live there now and think it is great but anyone who was there in the 50's and 60's can tell you it is not better for having grown into what it is now.

The Owens Valley in eastern California was compared to the Missouri River valley at the start of the 20th century. Since then it has become a desert after being pumped dry to supply water to southern California via William Mulholland's aquaduct. The water table in the area has been drawn down to the point that even trees with very deep root systems are dying out. The dust storms from the now dry Owens lake make for the worst air quality in the country on windy days.

common denominators

Sharksbaja - 12-19-2005 at 02:35 PM

Rick, you are new here so you probably have missed many folks describe the same course of events where they spent the latter part of the 1900s in beautiful(sic)California. The Owens Valley being one of them. The coast of Calif south from Santa Barbara another.

That may well be the reason so many of us love and relocate in Baja Sur. I just have a hard time envisioning that type of growth and construction in the Loreto area. It is still a nice place. Afterall, we left it behind before so why would we want to relive the same distruction(IMHO) of a beautiful place all over again.
Mr. Butterworth knows :lol:

cushy and comfy.

Why do we want more of the same in Baja(later) :?:

It's a question I keep wondering about.

Hmmmmm......mucho sol por la huesos?

Frankly, I think it's the rich opportunists wreaking havoc.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-19-2005 at 03:38 PM

Don: thanks for the Info on Dr. Collins; Can you giv me anymore details. Etc.

Dr. Collins"Tanny" treated my Mother when she came to Loreto on several different occcasions in the 70's and 80's.
He was one time the Delagado of Loreto and did you know that many years ago his Father was head of the communist party in La Paz. In the 70's there was a party Office on the Main Street of of Villa Constitution.

He is a great Guy, Hope he recovers.

Skeet

Old Life in Loreto

Juan del Rio - 12-19-2005 at 04:13 PM

Aerial photo from the Howard Gulick collection. Photo taken in April 1961.

Juan del Rio - 12-19-2005 at 04:19 PM

Loreto, April 1957. From the Howard Gulick collection

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by Juan del Rio]

Don Alley - 12-19-2005 at 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Don: thanks for the Info on Dr. Collins; Can you giv me anymore details. Etc.

Dr. Collins"Tanny" treated my Mother when she came to Loreto on several different occcasions in the 70's and 80's.
He was one time the Delagado of Loreto and did you know that many years ago his Father was head of the communist party in La Paz. In the 70's there was a party Office on the Main Street of of Villa Constitution.

He is a great Guy, Hope he recovers.

Skeet

Collins was driving down Missioneros after attending a party and apparently fell asleep. He hit a telephone pole at the corner of Missioneros and Agua Dulce at a high speed. I hear he had three operations, and suffered from broken ribs, punctured lung and damaged liver.

This info is word of mouth, so I can't vouch for its accuracy.

I didn't know the doctor (I see Dr. Green), just met him once, but he did some good doctoring for some good friends who thought the world of him. We sure hope he recovers.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-20-2005 at 08:58 AM

Juan Del Rio; The Picture of the Mission Tower looking West toward the Mtns.

For many years the building on the right side of the Photo was the Local Pool Hall, and next to that was the Place you could buy Loaves of Bread, baked in a Brick oven.{1968]. The bread at that time came from Bimbo across the Ferry, Boletos came from Santa Roasiltia after the road was paved

That was when we still had Dancing at the Plaza, New years eve party on the Second Story of the the Municipal-- Cafe Ole was not there at that time, and where the Plaz Hotel now sets, Negro killed a couple of Beef in the back on a concrete slab and sold the meat to the Customers lined up out Front..

Freddie Aguliar was Bartentder at the Flying Sportsman, The Hotel Oasis had 6 Rooms at $9.00 a Day with 3 meals, fishing in a panga with two people cost $20.

1968- the first Presdiente{Now the La Pinta} was being built, no chilly Willys, no Malacon, no Marina.. Most of the fisherman went out off the Beach in front of the Oasis, Mission, and the Little dock at the Flying Sportsman.

the Kids using rebar with a line attached would throw their "Spears" into a School of 35 Lb. yellowtail that came swooping in close to Shore.
The twin engine Convair was landing at the Municipal Strip which is now occupied by the Prep School and Ft. Apache.

1972 The Local People went out to the Cathouse and burned it to the Ground.
1974- The Bell that had been stolen more that 200 years opast was brought up in a fishermans Net to be illegally taken to La Paz.{SAome one should wrte up this story}

Lots of Memories

Skeet...know the street?

Juan del Rio - 12-20-2005 at 09:40 PM

Loreto 1957. From the Howard Gulick collection.

Your commentary is great. I have a few buddies in town that have owned homes in Loreto since the late eighties (but are "lurkers" on the board) and won't join the fun that this board offers to us Baja fans. Your comments and insight are really appreciated. I have a few more photos, but can't give it up yet till we get a few more stories. Thanks!

Skeet/Loreto - 12-21-2005 at 01:03 PM

I know the buildings but cannot call the name of the Street??

Ben Benner had the first Fid0 commiso in Loreto. He built the House directly across the street from the entrance to the Oasis. The Multi floor Structure in front of his House was built by the Widow of a Bush Pilot that was killed on Take off from a Questionable Strip near Culican. He had brought in a lot of Shop tools and taught several youngsters their Use.
Tio Don O;Niel was living in the Trailer on the Ortego Property when he built Fred Shields House. Tio and Fred were Neighbors in Long Beach and also Masonic Brothers. There was no Lodge in Loreto so we had to travel to Villa which has 2 Lodges.
Jim Parker and Von showed up a couple of years later and buit Houses, then Don Rosendahl.
Skeet

Loreto

tehag - 12-21-2005 at 04:31 PM

Skeet:

You don't mention Chuck's Tiger's house on Davis, circa 1980, or the Casita Quemada on the next corner. That was built by the Duncans earlier yet.

The questionable strip Greg was taking off from was actually a farm field at his wife Neli's former home in Aguamita just north of Fuerte.

Nice Insight

LaTijereta - 12-21-2005 at 07:12 PM

Skeet,
Jim and Mary Parker were already there, when my father "Vagn" and my mother came to town to live full time in 1978.
They set up first over by the Sportsman' Lodge, but later bought property from Saragosa (bartender at the Sportsman) to build a house near central Loreto.
The house got built, but I made several trips down the hwy with materials to get it done...There were no material yards in Loreto in those days :no:

jerry - 12-21-2005 at 08:28 PM

where was the sportsman located?? la pinta?? mission hotel oasis hotel?? somewhere in between??

Loreto

tehag - 12-21-2005 at 09:14 PM

Flying Sportsman Lodge was in Colonia Zaragosa and is now the Villas de Loreto.

jerry - 12-22-2005 at 07:27 AM

thanks tehag jerry

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2005 at 07:34 AM

Tehag:
1/2 of the Flying Sportsman is now the Villas. A group of People from Fresno Calif. got the other Half which contains a Nice House behind a Large Fence.

Skeet

Today's Wall Street Journal Article

Juan del Rio - 1-18-2006 at 08:32 AM

A little attention on Loreto Bay in today's Wall Street Journal article Pretty interesting slant from a nationwide viewpoint.

djh - 1-18-2006 at 08:36 AM

Available only to subscribers.... Would you mind a cut and paste job, doctor?

Wall Street Journal Article posted

Juan del Rio - 1-18-2006 at 11:03 AM

Builders Bet on Mexico

Will U.S. Baby Boomers
Cross the Border to Retire?
By KEMBA J. DUNHAM
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
January 18, 2006; Page B1

Loreto Bay Co. is a real-estate developer based in Scottsdale, Ariz., a magnet for retirees from all over the U.S. So you might expect the company to be working on a project nearby. Instead, this small firm has its sights trained further south, about 700 miles from the U.S. border, in Baja California.

Teaming up with FONATUR, Mexico's tourism development agency, Loreto Bay is developing a seaside town, with plans for 6,000 units ranging from $280,000 condos to $1 million custom-built beach houses. The company has taken orders for 554 homes and has 200 under construction. Most of the buyers, says James Grogan, president and chief executive, are Americans and Canadians.

The Villages of Loreto Bay, in the Mexican baja, feature shady streets with native plants. It's one of several communities being built in Mexico where developers hope to lure well-heeled retirees.

As home sales start to slow in the U.S., some builders are casting a hopeful eye on Mexico, placing bets that a growing population of North American retirees will want to buy mid- and high-end homes there, much as they have in places like Florida and the Southwest.

There are plenty of hurdles and risks. At least two major American home builders spent time in the Mexican market, then pulled out.

Still, the idea is appealing, especially to smaller developers, which are getting active encouragement from the National Association of Home Builders, the largest trade group in the U.S., with a membership of mostly small companies. At its International Builders' Show last week in Orlando, the NAHB ran an event explaining to members how to acquire land in Mexico, find partners there and finance such ventures. At an "Access Mexico" reception, U.S. home builders were invited to mingle with their Mexican peers.

"Mexico is a growing opportunity for resort and retirement communities," says Rita Feinberg, who heads NAHB's international efforts. The NAHB also sees Mexico as a place for small companies to escape increasingly aggressive competition with the U.S.'s biggest builders. Currently, the nation's 10 biggest home builders have 21% of the market for all new homes built in the U.S. and NAHB economists think that share will grow to between 35% and 40% in the next decade through growth and acquisitions. "It might be easier and more efficient for our smaller builders to go to Mexico," says Jerry Howard, NAHB chief executive.

Demographic and political trends seem favorable. According to a study conducted by Cemex SA, a Mexican cement giant, and Active Living International, which builds retirement and active-adult communities, about one million Americans currently live in Mexico, including 157,000 so-called active-adults -- buyers age 55 and over. That segment is expected to grow, according to the study. And it found that Americans of Mexican and Latin American descent are interested in retiring to Mexico. Retirees are attracted by the weather, the proximity to the U.S., an affordable cost of a living, and access to good quality health care.

Changes made under Nafta, the North American Free Trade Agreement, have also helped. For example, there are new financial instruments that can benefit home builders, says Jeffrey Schott, a senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics, a nonpartisan, nonprofit think tank in Washington. "A decade ago, this would have been a much riskier venture because you wouldn't have had the mortgage market, you would have had an uncertain policy regime. ... There are still problems, but a lot has improved.''

Still, those problems can be daunting. For example, there is a law that forbids non-Mexicans from owning land in close proximity to the borders or the beach front. Interpreting those laws can be tricky. In the Baja peninsula a few years ago, scores of U.S. retirees learned that deeds on their beachfront property didn't meet those certain provisions of a national-security statute that, technically, permits only citizens to own land on Mexico's two coasts. A few were able to buy back their homes from legally recognized landowners, while others filed a claim against the Mexican government. But the wide majority of these retirees haven't had any resolution.

The country does allow foreign individuals to acquire property by working through a trust, known as a Fideicomiso. With this arrangement, these foreigners can obtain the beneficiary rights of ownership to property in Mexico, but the title is held by a trustee, which must be a Mexican bank. The trust operates the same way as a family trust in the U.S., but it exists for a maximum of 50 years and it must be renewed, says Jorge A. Vargas, an expert in Mexican law at the University of San Diego School of Law.

He adds that corporations don't need to work through a Fideicomiso, but can buy property outright provided that they use it for commercial purposes. Still, the extensive red tape and legal complexities prompt many American builders interested in Mexico to seek local partners. The extensive red tape and legal complexities prompt many American builders interested in Mexico to seek local partners. "I'm not saying partnering with a Mexican firm is the only way an American builder can do it, but it just makes it much easier," says Jesus Alan Elizondo Flores, an official at Sociedad Hipotecaria Federal, a federal home-mortgage institution in Mexico. "There's a huge learning curve."

Active Living, based in Corona del Mar, Calif., is developing its first Mexican venture, in the Nuevo Vallarta resort area, with several partners, including one in Mexico. The development, one of five planned by Active Living, will have 250 units, with one to three bedrooms, priced at an average of about $388,000. It is expected to be completed in late 2007 and will be marketed throughout the U.S. and Canada.

U.S. developers hope retirees will buy $1 million custom homes in Mexico's Loreto Bay, where rooms with a view face the water.

Some developers are hedging their bets in other ways. Bryson Garbett, president of Garbett Homes Inc., based in Salt Lake City, currently has a letter of intent on a piece of land in Queretaro, the state north of Mexico City, where he hopes to build 200 to 400 homes for middle-class Mexicans within the next year. And he's looking for other tracts of land in the coastal areas, but he's considering building second homes -- not primary homes -- for retirees.

Still, some analysts wonder why Mexico is a draw at all. "The higher returns on capital are here in the U.S.," says Alex Barron, an analyst at JMP Securities in San Francisco. Mexico, "as exciting as it might seem right now, has been historically risky."

Robert Curran, a home building analyst at Fitch Ratings in New York, points to the two big builders, KB Home and Pulte Homes Inc., that didn't find business in Mexico profitable enough. KB was there briefly in the early 1990s; Pulte pulled out of the market in December, after almost 10 years. "If Pulte couldn't do it, why would they [smaller builders] have success?" Mr. Curran asks.

But some prospective retirees have more encouraging words. Shari Cooper, a 45-year-old realtor from Dallas, and her husband, Juan Rivera, a 45-year-old Los Angeles-based photojournalist, bought a two-bedroom "casita'' priced at about $450,000 in Loreto Bay just a few months ago. They had gone to visit after hearing about the development from friends who bought a unit last year.

"We just fell in love with it,'' says Ms. Cooper. "We were looking for a place that was away from the rat race and it just makes you feel renewed because of its beauty. It's a very spiritual and the kind of place you'd want to retire to.'' The couple hopes to retire there in the next five years, but until then, they plan to make frequent visits.

Write to Kemba J. Dunham at kemba.dunham@wsj.com

Forgive the Canadians

Sharksbaja - 1-18-2006 at 01:47 PM

All this time I thought the Canadians were to blame. :lol:

Arizona did it! :lol:

What a piece of poorly researched press. :no:

djh - 1-18-2006 at 02:14 PM

JdR,

Thanks for posting the article itself so those of us who don't subscribe to the WSJ can read it.

Yup... a bit stary eyed and superficial and, as mentioned, lacking in research (aka investigative reporting), but it is nice to know what the media is putting out there...

djh.

Thanks for posting that Juan

flyfishinPam - 1-18-2006 at 02:18 PM

When I dig out of this mountain of trabajo I'll scan those circa 1991 aerial shots of Loreto and post them.

The article was not poorly researched it is on the money. Have a look at the Loreto Bay site and you'll see most of the ops are in Scottsdale Arizona http://www.loretobay.com

I went to the Inn at Loreto Bay on friday for their new pricing and contract. (Used to be called El Camino Real) and couldn't believe how much things have changed in Nopolo. The building reminded me some areas of Guadalajara, tastefully done Mexican colonial style.

The new gardening is looking beautiful and would ya know it many of the palm trees from Cononia Zaragoza are being bought and moved to the development. Hope they don't start moving cardons too!

Dave - 1-18-2006 at 02:28 PM

Pam, I just clicked on the link. This looks like a first rate project. I don't know what all the complaining is about... Jealousy, I guess.

This should to be great for your business.

djh - 1-18-2006 at 02:45 PM

to clarify a bit...

I'm not a complainer - at least I try not to be. (If you hear me complaining, please remind me I said this, ok?

)

My comment that the article is a bit "stary-eyed and superficial" speaks to the simple fact that one article can only give so much information and there is so much more to know...

Certainly all of the research that HAS been done regarding some of the larger issues surrounding this development, the resources, the impacts, etc. etc., as found in the Futuros Alternativos study (found at: http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/report/report_water... ) are not addressed.

I know that was not the writer's intent in the article....

djh

flyfishinPam - 1-18-2006 at 03:10 PM

Please refer to figure 11 in your link and tell me if they've gotten things a bit mixed up!!!

I read futuros alternativos and the question I have is "now what?" they don't seem to offer any solutions to this problem and I'm not convinced that everything inked out is completely true. One reason biology turned me off is that it relied too heavily on statistics, I'm sure you know that any position can be made to sound convincing through statistics. If these reports are wholly true then growth here will clearly be limited to a certain number.

But....

Sharksbaja - 1-18-2006 at 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
The article was not poorly researched it is on the money. Have a look at the Loreto Bay site and you'll see most of the ops are in Scottsdale Arizona http://www.loretobay.com

Pam, you must surely know the Canadians are financing this development. No?
I see from your posts going back nearly 2 years that you have supported the project all along. That's cool, I am sure you will benefit.
My beef has always been focused on collateral damage in the way of:

1) exponential growth factor
2) resources and infrastructure compromised
3) benefit(s) to local average citizens

IMHO the feel of Loreto will remain awhile.
It is pretty obvious that the project has garnered much attention and publicity. This is not cheap. Loreto Bay has put millions in there PR machine to sweeten the image thereby attracting prospective buyers. They have done well at this.
Just like giving the impression it is an American development.
The ramification is just more developers wanting in on the gold rush. Thats' my biggest beef.

Oh, and I think charging thousands of extra dollars a year to use the beachfront is abominable.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-18-2006 at 04:15 PM

The Article was well done even through it did not addrss both sides of the Equation!
At the onset of this Development i reacted that it was Too Big. I am still of that concern when it comes to the Question of Water,Hospitaj, Schools.

After all that has gone on since its start, it can be seen that there is too much money involved for it to be a complete Failure.

It is hoped that if the Canadians have the fortitude and the control that they will do better at disposing of their Sewage than they have at Victoria, B.C!It would be a shame of they do not control their Sewage in Loreto.

One day Loreto will b like Cabo, CanCun, Aruba, and other Places madefor people to come and spend their money looking at the Water, with a Large margarita in their hand,saying "Oh How Beautifull it is"'never knowing that Parto of that beauty is its People!!!

Skeet/Loreto

capt. mike - 1-18-2006 at 05:19 PM

hey!!....anybody see the article in today's New York Times financial section on loreto bay??
as artie johnson used to say,......."verrrrrry interestink!!" :lol:

djh - 1-18-2006 at 09:02 PM

Can you post it, Mike?
Thx.
djh

Sharksbaja - 1-18-2006 at 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The Article was well done even through it did not addrss both sides of the Equation
Skeet/Loreto

To me it sounded just like another press release by Loreto Bay.

Worldtraveller - 1-19-2006 at 12:32 AM

From what I've read, looks like the project is as much American as it is Canadian.

What's the deal with "thousands of dollars" to use the beach? Whether things end up as well as some predict or as bad as others believe, certainly there has been much more thought given to the ultimate result than in most any other beach resort I know of.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Just like giving the impression it is an American development.
The ramification is just more developers wanting in on the gold rush. Thats' my biggest beef.

Oh, and I think charging thousands of extra dollars a year to use the beachfront is abominable.

wilderone - 1-19-2006 at 10:21 AM

"What's the deal with "thousands of dollars" to use the beach?"
They want $20,000 initiation fee to join the "beach club."
And yes, there has been a lot of "thought." That translates into promises, talk, "business plans which analyze opportunies" which are in conflict with each other. Their hyperbole is riddled with half-truths, and their "promises" are vacuous (e.g., "By the end of the project we will harvest or produce more potable water than we use.") When, exactly, is the end of the project? How are they fulfilling that promise when the immediate plan is to suck the acquifer dry and "await population growth" before endeavoring a viable desalinization plant? And how is taking water from the acquifer "sustainable"? And in the meantime, hundreds of other condo projects all up and down the peninsula are in the works. And, if you do a little research, you will find numerous seaside development projects on the mainland as well. There's really nothing special about Loreto Bay except the fact that it's spread out and spoiling much more natural geography than a highrise would (smaller footprint).

Skeet/Loreto - 1-19-2006 at 04:57 PM

One; Very Good;
Question: Is it better to leave all the Dumped Trash out North of Loreto or is it best to put up a Condo on top of the dump.
It will take Millions to clean up North of Loreto. Who Will Pay, not the owners of the condos.

And Not everyone wants to make a smaller Footprint. If you want that kind of life move to Tambabechie.

Loreto as it was know started to change before Loreto Bay villages came alon. They started renting Personal Water Craft, Kyacks, and 4 Wheelers

Skeet/Loreto

Worldtraveller - 1-20-2006 at 10:57 PM

Can buyers use the beach without joining the beach club? Does this include golf?

$20,000 seems quite pricey. Either it will be a super-duper beach club or no one will join.

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
"What's the deal with "thousands of dollars" to use the beach?"
They want $20,000 initiation fee to join the "beach club."

Sharksbaja - 1-20-2006 at 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Worldtraveller
Can buyers use the beach without joining the beach club? Does this include golf?

Pages: 1 2