BajaNomad - Small Inverters ?

Small Inverters ?

Diver - 12-28-2005 at 07:43 AM

I want to buy a small inverter to use for charging radios, 18V tools, laptop etc. I was thinking of the cigarette lighter variety. We would run it off our 2 camper batteries or run the deisel truck for a while ?? Never had one before.

Any recommendations or words of wisdom ?

Can I use the same inverter to run a small TV or blender ?

bajajudy - 12-28-2005 at 07:46 AM

The only experience I have had with the cigarette lighter variety was not good. It would not blow up an air mattress, the kind that has an airpump included.

Royosbaja - 12-28-2005 at 07:59 AM

We have a 400w inverter that is the kind you are refering to. It can be pluged into the lighter socket or hooked directly to a battery. Have used it for the laptop without any problems, (from a set of two batteries, as well as the truck).
Only issue was when using from batteries or when the truck was not running. The inverter has an automatic shutdown that will prevent it from draining the "source." This prevents it from sucking all the juice out of your battery, probably a good thing.
I have never tried to use it to "recharge" portable tooling.
As far as a blender or other appliance, you would need to check the wattage of the appliance and ensure the inverter is large enough to operate it.

Good luck.

Diver - 12-28-2005 at 08:08 AM

Any particular brands ? Where to buy ?

bajalou - 12-28-2005 at 08:36 AM

2 400 watt units for $25 is a pretty good deal. I've paid about $20+ for one in the past - never had a problem running laptop or christmas lights (decorated desert buggy)

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2005 at 09:04 AM

Blender....TV...400w too small

I had a 400w and it was too small for the boat blender.

I got a 700w for $49 and have been happy since then

turtleandtoad - 12-28-2005 at 10:20 AM

Xantrex; Prosine; Vector; There are dozens of manufacturers.

Most cigarette lighters won't give you enough power to do much no matter what size inverter you have. The wires to the lighter are too small to handle the load for extended periods of time. They were designed for short-time use. If you use one, make sure to check out the wires (both the pos and the neg) to make sure they aren't heating up. I've seen a lot of wire loom fires caused by this.

You're better off if you get one with alligator clips and connect directly to the battery.

Another thing to check is if you need a sine-wave output or will a modified sine-wave (square-wave) work. Some equipment won't work on the square wave. My DVD player just cycles from off to on when plugged into a square wave, same for my electric blanket until I switched to some blanket controls I had from an older blanket (I kept them when the blanket quit, don't know why). For more info on waveforms and typical appliance loads, check out "www.xantrex.com"

Check out "www.invertersRus.com" or "DonRowe.com" for a selection of various manufacturers. I use Xantrex, myself but it's a little bigger (2500W)

Small Inverters

MrBillM - 12-28-2005 at 11:10 AM

I've used (and am still using) numerous "Statpower" Inverters (now owned by Xantrex) and they are GREAT. Low no-load current draw. My oldest functioning Statpower 150W is Twenty years Plus. I have a newer Statpower Prowatt 150 powering my Direcway, Dishnet receiver and 10" Color TV in my office space.
I use the older ones now for charging numerous cordless tools, radios, etc.

When you look at Small Inverters, look for units that DON'T use a small cooling fan, but simply use passive cooling ribs. The fan will use more current than the no-load draw of the inverter. Compare No-Load specs when shopping. They vary from model to model. The "Coleman" and others like it have a relatively high no-load draw.

Who makes your 18v batteries?

soulpatch - 12-28-2005 at 05:39 PM

I found out from the manufacturer of mine(Milwaukee) that unless it is sinewave they eat batteries. I found this out from experience, too, unfortunately.

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2005 at 06:08 PM

What would sinewave have to do with the batteries? :?:

jerry - 12-28-2005 at 06:26 PM

wire size is the key to inverters when you get to 2500 w your battery wires should be as big around at your thumb
have a good one jerry

Re: Sinewave

soulpatch - 12-28-2005 at 06:28 PM

I have no idea. I just know that I ate two batteries and then checked w/the manufacturer and they said no on the modified sinewave.....them things ain't cheap.

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2005 at 06:33 PM

jerry your right...expensive!!!

I'll have to research modified sine wave but i think they bs'ed you.

soulpatch - 12-28-2005 at 06:37 PM

Think what you want. I learned my lesson after the fact. I'm sure it's just me.

bajalou - 12-28-2005 at 06:48 PM

I too have rechargable batteries that didn't like mod. sinewave. A neighbor had the same problem and contacted the mfgr. who sent them a different charger then no more problems. It's not the battery it's the charger that's particular, at least in our cases. But lots of rechargables like it fine - I have 3 battery powered drills that charge just fine - and they're the cheaper ones. Also my recharger for AA-C-D cells works just fine as does my 3 laptop computers and 2 printers. Other than the one brand of rechargable battery (for one of those Jump Start deals), a digital answering machine and a VCR, I have found nothing that has problems with the modified sinewave. Been living off the grid with solar panels, 6V batteries and inverters for over 10 years now.

:spingrin:

turtleandtoad - 12-28-2005 at 06:48 PM

The waveform affects the purity of the DC output. Some (most?) chargers cannot filter the modified sinewave enough and the DC out has dips and spikes that destroys batteries (this is a very rough explanation, a technically correct would be over most peoples head). That's another good reason to not skimp if you're going to go that route.

That's another good reason to try for a DC input charger if all you're going to do is charge batteries. And as Braulio has pointed out, using an inverter is very inefficient for battery charging, you are converting DC to AC in the inverter and then converting the AC to DC in the charger. You lose efficiency in each step.

Jerry, actually my cables are about 1-1/2 times the size of my thumb, with a 300 amp fuse protecting them.

For battery charging only, I'd go for a solar panel and charge controller. They come in all sizes, including portable set-ups.

As shown in my sig, I use solar to charge my battery bank that supplies my 2500W inverter.

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2005 at 06:51 PM

Soulpatch...i guess you're right..
http://www.bitterrootsolar.com/help/basic-solar.htm

Get rid of the :lol:

jerry - 12-28-2005 at 08:18 PM

hea tourtle and toad how far you running those wires the distence make a lot of difference too, thers a formula and i allway upsize everything. works better if its not overloaded boy the big inverters sure have gonnen cheap 20 yrs ago a 2500w heart cost $2500 have a good one jerry

turtleandtoad - 12-28-2005 at 08:39 PM

Yeah Jerry,
I'm running the cables from the Battery bank to the inverter about 10 ft.

I know the formulas, I'm a retired electrical/electronics system designer. That's why they are so big.

The inverter battery bank is two 6 volt L16H 420 AH Trojan batteries. I run everything AC in my coach off the inverter when I'm boondocking, including the TV and Microwave. I also have another battery bank for the DC systems and a third for the engine/chassis.

Oh, yes they are expensive but they've come down somewhat. I paid about $1600 for mine

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by turtleandtoad]

jerry - 12-28-2005 at 08:49 PM

does the microwave color tv hair dryer and curling iron pop a few breakers
just kidding i know you need to ration them out so its not too mutch at any one time
i been hearing costco has some 2000W inverters for less then $100?? you know anything about that??
have a good one jerry

bajalou - 12-28-2005 at 09:35 PM

I have a 1500W I got at Costco well over a year ago for about $80 and run my place with it. Not true sinewave but everything I use works OK with it. Including computers and printers, telephone system etc.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by bajalou]

turtleandtoad - 12-28-2005 at 10:13 PM

Not familiar with the Costco special but I'd be leary of any inverter that cheap. There are a lot of shortcuts that you can do when building an inverter to get the price down.

Another trick is to list the surge capacity and not the continuous capacity.

Of course mine is also a 3 stage 135 amp charger with temperature compensation and equalization mode. It is programmable and is remote monitored and controlled. It'll even make coffee and vacuum the carpet (just kidding on those last two).

Diver - 12-28-2005 at 10:18 PM

When are you heading down Tand T ?
We cross mid February for 4-6 weeks. See ya there ??
Have you checked out the Lyle/Klickitat County website ?

turtleandtoad - 12-29-2005 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
When are you heading down Tand T ?
We cross mid February for 4-6 weeks. See ya there ??
Have you checked out the Lyle/Klickitat County website ?

I'm crossing around Feb 3 but, thanks to the new rules regarding RV's and toads, I'm heading down the west coast of the mainland this year. I might take a ferry across to Baja on my trip back though. I don't plan that far ahead :biggrin:

I didn't know Lyle had a website! Do you have the URL?

Diver - 12-29-2005 at 09:23 AM

http://community.gorge.net/lyle/index.htm
I'm sure you'll see some familiar sites.

turtleandtoad - 12-29-2005 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
http://community.gorge.net/lyle/index.htm
I'm sure you'll see some familiar sites.

Yeah, I did. Thanks for the link.

turtleandtoad - 12-29-2005 at 04:12 PM

Hose A,

If that price and size are correct, it's a steal (and maybe it was). A 1500W inverter runs around $125 and up in the states. That might be a counterfit unit.

Just be warned, Xantrex doesn't build a 1500W inverter under the Xantrex label. The closest they have is 1750W. They do build a 1500W under the xPower label but even those run over $100 dollars.

Bob and Susan - 12-29-2005 at 04:24 PM

..let the buyer beware :spingrin:

Bob and Susan - 12-29-2005 at 04:54 PM

..it still is a GREAT deal!!!!

mexibob - 12-30-2005 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
Hose A,

If that price and size are correct, it's a steal (and maybe it was). A 1500W inverter runs around $125 and up in the states. That might be a counterfit unit.

Just be warned, Xantrex doesn't build a 1500W inverter under the Xantrex label. The closest they have is 1750W. They do build a 1500W under the xPower label but even those run over $100 dollars.

Actually, that's not totally correct.

I have in my hand the invoice for a Xantrex DR1512 Inverter. That's 1500 watts at 12 volts. It has a battery charger of 70 amp, depending on AC input, and a 30 amp AC relay for switch over.

I haven't taken the inverter out of the box as it is my back up for my DR 2412 Xantrex.

It is also the official 'white and green' color. Wanna see a pic?

The cost for this unit from KYOCERA in Scottsdale was $675.00 delivered to southern Arizona.

[Edited on 12-30-2005 by mexibob]

bajalou - 12-30-2005 at 09:28 AM

Quote:

I have a XPower by Xantrex - have been using it well over a year to supply all of my home needs in a solar comunity. It was less than $80 at Costco in Calif.

meme - 12-30-2005 at 09:55 AM

Yes Lou, Right! We have bought 3 of them at Costco, but think they now have them no longer! Same inverter, same price!!

turtleandtoad - 12-30-2005 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mexibob

Quote:

Actually I was referring to straight inverters, no charger, no ATS, no extra's, just an inverter. I know that they make the 1500's in DR and other lines, just not straight inverters.

Check their website Xantrex

Phil S - 12-30-2005 at 10:57 AM

I have a XPower (Zantrex) bought at Costco couple years ago. Model 1200 which produces 1,000 watts. But it is not a cigarette 'plug in' type. I like the idea of wiring into the vehicles battery system over the 'plug in'.
I have done business with RVSolar Electric in Scottsdale Az for the past 13 years. I have bought 8- 48Watt panels for myself & relatives, including regulators. It's EZ to hook up. I say that because I have no mechanical abilities. My hands understand pencils & pens. Not tools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RVSolar Electric has a great website with prices etc. They also sell a couple books telling you in layman terms how it works, and how to make it work, and how to do it. I bought them, and they were great. I also have a small trickle charger solar panel about 14" long by 5 " wide that I use to keep my pickup batteries (diesel) charged via the cigarette lighter. But I don't try to use any chargers etc in conjunction with it. Solar panels are the answer. I have two 48 watt panels connected side by side with 40' of wiring to my regulator that feeds my two trojan six volters & one 12 volt HD r.v battery in my motorhome. I have installed a used garage sale camera tripod to the panels, and several times a day, I move the panels to obtain the maxiumum sunlight. I'm usually charging 4 amps into the system and have never found the batteries to be drawn down. But I am a conservative user. No toasters, frying pans, etc. I have a 12 volt charged blender. 12volt t.v./vhs television, laptop computer. Gets me by and I haven't installed the Xantrex yet, as haven't seen a need for it yet. This all works for me. Others will have different needs, and different opinions.

mexibob - 12-30-2005 at 11:06 AM

My bad, after all of the discussion of remote control, temperature compensation and three-stage battery charging with equalization, I thought you had progressed beyond the 'less technical' inverters.

Check my favorite site for full time solar living; http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folde...

For those of you that may be interested I have a DC to DC inverter project that can run your Direcway Satellite modem(s) from one single 12 volt DC source.

The larger style can power your laptop as well.

Free for the asking are the plans and links to the needed parts.

turtleandtoad - 12-30-2005 at 11:41 AM

Nah, that was just me, bragging a little. :rolleyes:

The real topic is a small plug-in inverter to charge batteries in power tools, radios, laptops, etc.

I may be interested in your DC/DC inverter later. I'm going to be checking out satellite internet while in Quartzsite next month.

mexibob - 12-30-2005 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
Nah, that was just me, bragging a little. :rolleyes:

If you want you can check out the DW systems with 'los frailes' here. He's a certified, real guy, installer down there in Santa Rosalia.

He might be able to do you better than a stateside enterprise would. Unless of course you are looking at the Datastorm satellite system.

turtleandtoad - 12-30-2005 at 12:17 PM

Thanks, but right now I'm in Phoenix, next stop Quartzsite AZ and then on to Guadalajara via Mex 15.

XPower 1500

MrBillM - 12-30-2005 at 06:15 PM

I have purchased numerous XPower 1500 by Xantrex from Costco at 85 Bucks each for myself and others down here. No one I have talked to has had a problem with them in constant operation for over a year now. I've got two on a shelf in the garage for the day when my Trace 2500 has a problem. Best deal I've seen for the money.

Diver - 12-31-2005 at 09:18 AM

http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/xpower_400_p.html

Anyone have any experience with these all-in-one deals ?
Looks like a good deal for all it does.
Can I use a chord (or jumper cables) to charge the batteries instead of the lighter plug?

Bob and Susan - 12-31-2005 at 09:24 AM

A 400w inverter is small....

I just assisted a friend installing a 400w in his truck..he paid $20
This thing your looking at is $130
I cut the lighter plug off and hard wired it in.

Get at least a 700w to run the coffee pot :yes:

turtleandtoad - 12-31-2005 at 09:46 AM

Xantrex has a very good reputation and is customer friendly if you have a problem with one of their products.

However! 320 watts continuous calculates to 2.8 amps @ 115 VAC. So you aren't going to power much or for very long. Like they say in their ad, it's for emergency and powering small items. What they don't say is that it's also just for a short time. It also takes about 30 hours to recharge from a fully discharged state.

What it doesn't say is whether you can charge it and use the inverter (or air compressor) at the same time.

I've got one just like it, only made by a different company and you cannot hook it up to an external dc source and run AC equipment at the same time. I use mine to inflate my bike & car tires. The DC & AC out might come in handy in an emergency but haven't used them yet.

[Edited on 12-31-2005 by turtleandtoad]

Diver - 12-31-2005 at 10:19 AM

You guys are great ! Nomads are an awsome source of information !

I should have been more specific;

We either tow a 22' camper with 2 RV batteries or carry a 9' pick-up camper that has 1 RV battery. Tow/carry rig is a diesel with 2 batteries.

When we dry camp it's normally for less than a week before we move along or hit someplace with power and water for a night or two. We use minimal power except the camper functions, lights, water pump, very occasional TV/DVD, radio or Mp3 with speakers, laptop and radio chargers from lighter plug, I also need a new inflator.

We aren't looking for much.
I thought about the small solar panel but kinda think that when I can idle the truck for 30-60 minutes every 2 or 3 days with it's big alternator, it seems too easy (and cheap).

Bob and Susan - 12-31-2005 at 10:30 AM

That's what we do on the boat....

...but you need at least 700w of power for the blender and coffee pot...spend $49 and get a little larger unit

oh yea...the electric hot plate takes too much

turtleandtoad - 12-31-2005 at 10:45 AM

I agree with Bob and Susan. Then buy a battery powered compressor separately. You can probably find one with the "Jump" feature, but without the inverter, cheaper. It'll take up a little more space but I think you'll be happier.

The big problem is that 30 hour recharge time. If you use it one day you have to charge for a day and a half.

DW Operation

MrBillM - 12-31-2005 at 11:23 AM

Right now, I am running MY DW6000 Modem, my Netgear 802.11G Router and my Laptop charger from a Statpower Prowatt 150 and have been doing so for over a year with NO problems. I am running a Dishnet Receiver, DVD player and 10" Color TV off of a second Prowatt 150. Electronics are not a problem with small inverters. Power tools are another matter, but they'll for the most part run off of the cheapest inverters out there.

Speaking of Air Compressors, I just bought a 12vdc compressor at Walmart for a little over ten bucks. Couldn't pass it up. Tried it on one of my Samurai tires and it worked fine. No idea what the lifetime would be, of course, but "Such a Deal". For the serious stuff, of course, I have a couple of Real Compressors.

[Edited on 12-31-2005 by MrBillM]

Thanks for the solar lesson

Denver - 1-23-2006 at 08:15 PM

Muchas gracias Nomads! You're depth of knowledge regarding inverters and electric power in general is amazing. I hope to put the knowledge to use ASAP.