BajaNomad

Buying and Selling Real Estate in Baja Sur

Skeet/Loreto - 12-28-2005 at 08:38 AM

The Buying and selling of Real Estate can be very easy if you follow a A few simple Leads.

Directly from a Mexicano- make a sales Agreement after he gives you a copy of the Title-get a Certificate of No Gravemen{Lien] get a Survey, take all the papers to a Notoria. On receipt of all papers that show the property is clear, register with the State/Mexico then give the money to the Seller

Or talk to a Realtor like Alex and have him do all the work and have it handled through Miguel Izquerdo in La Pas.

When dealing with business, always go to the Capitol City.

Sometimes , peoples personality does not allow for the Fact that they are in Baja, not Calif. Flordia, or Oregon

I dealt for 12 years with the Locals in Loreto and with La Paz and I did not have a bit of trouble with any Mexicano only Americanos with an Attitude.
On any sale I did not Lie, Cheat nor Steal, I think that is why I had no trouble with the Mexicanos.

I would advise all future Buyers and sellers to keep the above information close to their Hearts and Minds.

Skeet/Loreto

jerry - 12-28-2005 at 09:08 AM

and be prepaired to wait it can take up to a year or more to get your fedio its mexico relax kick back its your first lession in the way things happen in mexico have a good one jerry

oladulce - 12-28-2005 at 11:42 AM

My suggestion is to choose your fideicomiso bank wisely. Ask around and choose a bank that people report is "responsive" when you need them. Paying a low annual fee is great, but don't base your bank choice on that alone.

We went with the lowest bidder (Scotia Bank) on our most recent property purchase in BCS and eventually hired an additional LaPaz attorney ($$$) who would have to drive to the Fideio branch in Cabo to get the Fideio. manager to do anything. This didn't save us money in the long run. Our personal Mexican attorney recommended Scotia because most of his business is in Sonora and he reported excellent service from the Hermosillo branch that he deals with the most- so it also seems to be State, or branch- dependent.

We've been in the process of selling our old place for 14 months now. The transaction would be complete except for the past 6 months the Notario (Miguel Izquierdo) has been trying to get Bancomer to sign to release our fideicomiso. In September, Bancomer's Fiduciary branch for the entire state of Baja Sur (La Paz) suddenly closed because one guy quit, and for a few months the bank said it would be closed "indefinitely".

Then the Bank decided that all transactions for the Baja Peninsula would be handled out of TJ so the Notario had to resend everything to TJ (not once , but 3 times ) until they finally confirmed that they received the paperwork. In November, Bancomer in TJ stopped responding at all when Lic. Izquierdo called them and he told us he didn't know what he was going to do next.

We hired our personal attorney again ($$$) to make some phone calls and he happened to know a jefe at the Bancomer Mexico city office who said he would" look in to it". Meanwhile, we will have to renew the Avalous (property appraisals) on the 2 lots for the 6th time because they expire after 3 months.

In 1992 a Bancocremi rep. took the $3500 dollars we had paid to start the Fideio process (at the old pesos rate this was just the down payment), and was never seen again. Cremi wouldn't honor the transaction and we had to start all over again.

Our Mexican real estate transactions have always gone smoothly- except for the dealings with the banks.

Capt. George - 12-28-2005 at 12:18 PM

I, too used a Notario in La Paz...took over a year and a half to close property...that was almost acceptable, however I had important documents forwarded to the same office on a seperate real estate purchase...and was told, don't know where they are...good bye.

Thank you, but I will stay far away from La Paz for real estate transactions.

When will the Mexican Government offer Americans the right to a quitclaim deed?? Lord knows, we're spending enough money in their country..it's about time we receive the same treatment a Mexican gets in the U.S. when buying property! The whole system is simply a way of bleeding every penny they can out of you...Must have had U.S. Attorneys as teachers....

Capt. George

Skeet/Loreto - 12-28-2005 at 03:02 PM

My Post was directed toward the Purchase of Property Only, Not to the Bank Trust.
I had a Bank Trust from Property I bought from a widow of whose Husband died in Baja. It took about two years as the Mexican Laws re much better at protecting the Heirs than the States.

Many Americanos go to Baja an expect everybody to Kiss their Butt for anything that they request of them.
I found that the Mexicanos are much more Trustworthy than the Americanos that I dealt with.
Americans think that the States United way of doing things are the only true way things should be done--That is Stupid to think that just because act Tough, Shout and Holler, Threaten that they will Knuckle under to an Americano.

The Mexicano in the States knows alot more on how to get along, than some the Americanos in Baja.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans"

Skeet/Loreto

oladulce - 12-28-2005 at 03:34 PM

Sorry Skeet, I didn't mean to hijack your post. Sounds like you've gone through multiple real estate transactions and were trying to make a specific point.

We are only on our 4th Baja property, but it will be the last .

Tired of being at the mercy of the Mexican banks and the fideicomiso process.

[Edited on 12-28-2005 by oladulce]

Skeet/Loreto - 12-28-2005 at 04:30 PM

dulce;. No Problem.
After my first Property as a Bank Trust I formed a Mexican Corp. Cost $1500 with a $100 a year payment for an Accountant.

It was very easy and each sale was done through the corp. Result-No Capitol Gains.

I had the Corp for 12 years, it always worked real good for me.
I did advise a few people to open up Dollar accounts in the Banks which controlled their Trusts. This seem to help.

It is a different way of doing things. Hope it all works out for You.

Skeet/Loreto

Capt. George - 12-28-2005 at 06:03 PM

Skeet,

I like these times even less then you, but my friend, "times, they are a changin'"

You seen the best, it ain't comin back....

Wish I had been in Loreto in your time.....I do sincerely appreciate your advice to me long ago, do a Mexican Corporation...

Gracias mi amigo y adios Happy New year George

Found a little of it in Ojos

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2005 at 06:24 PM

"Today" is the BEST time....
...and it's only getting better!!!

Mexican Corporations cannot be used to hold a primary residence...
You MUST have a business.....
You must file monthly reports on the internet and a BIG yearly report.

People who try to circumvent the rules risk losing their investment.

Osprey - 12-28-2005 at 07:39 PM

Bob and Susan, Now you're talking. Finally. All the chatter about Mexican Corporations on the board over the last couple of years almost had me convinced somebody changed the rules or found a loophole. Look at Skeet's posts and you'll be convinced he knows all, the Captain too. You can't hide behind a corporation on a residence INCLUDING RENTALS to escape the legalities of, the comfort of a Bank Trust or use the corporation to avoid taxes, paperwork, declarations, U.S. tax relief, etc. Those who have/do lack data, have so far evaded the real Mexican laws or are scofflaws that would do the same in any country.

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2005 at 08:14 PM

oh... i'm no saint...:saint:

...you can live there with a corporation but you need over 3 units and you must make an attempt to make money, pay taxes, and file reports.

You can have the best of both worlds if you share

jerry - 12-28-2005 at 08:36 PM

oh theres been a lot of ppl livin on the edge for a long time but i think that the more computers and growth it will come to a screeching hault and some will have to pay the piper
its no different then in the states ppl working under the table avoiding there responsibilities poof loose a eye, finger, back problems no worker comp there just sh-it out of luck and the woh is me?? and the employer gets busted for tax evasion my acountant once said to me if you sleep with dogs your gonna wake up with fleas
if your gona build some thing start with the foundation and build up and dont burn your bridges have a good one jerry

jerry - 12-28-2005 at 11:10 PM

my above comments were not intended to point fingers at anyone and i hope that noone takes then that way have a good one jerry

Skeet/Loreto - 1-6-2006 at 07:29 PM

All the years that I had my Corp. I had the accountant make the reports, make the very small reports each year. All Sales were reported , there was no underhanded thing done.

The last peice of property was sold and completed about 3 months ago.

Have things changed in the past 3 months?? maybe it is the people dealing with the bad guys from the start, trying to get something for nothing, who knows?

I did not have any trouble.

Skeet/Loreto

Bob and Susan - 1-6-2006 at 07:34 PM

No Skeet but...

You cannot live in a primary residence with a corp.
You MUST have the title in a trust.

If you live on the property you MUST conduct business on that property.

Actually holding title with a corp is better as you take out the BANK peoplewhen you have to sell.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-7-2006 at 12:36 PM

Must be a new Law for Muelge!
I built and Lived at Rancho Sonrisa-It was in the name of the Corp.
I held a hacienda Card in the name of the Corp.
All transations were made and completed in the name of the Corp.
All taxes and property listed at the Muni were in the name of the Corp.
Each time I sold a Property a copy of the Original Articles of Corp went along with the Signing.
All sales were reported by the Accountant.

Do you go throught La Paz or Santa Rosalita?

Skeet/Loreto

Bob and Susan - 1-7-2006 at 03:02 PM

People have gotten away with this for a long time but...
the government is cracking down....computers and education

You cannot hold a primary residence with a corp...you MUST run a business.

We went to Miguel in La Paz for our corp papers but you can also do it now in Santa Rosalia.

All documents are registered in Santa Rosalia for Mulege.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-7-2006 at 04:13 PM

Glad to hear that you went to Miguel. I did to and was very happy at all the good work he did for Me.
I would like to see him Governor someday. Possible?

Skeet

elizabeth - 1-8-2006 at 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. George

When will the Mexican Government offer Americans the right to a quitclaim deed?? Lord knows, we're spending enough money in their country..it's about time we receive the same treatment a Mexican gets in the U.S. when buying property! The whole system is simply a way of bleeding every penny they can out of you...Must have had U.S. Attorneys as teachers....

Capt. George


A foreign citizen CAN own property outright in Mexico, just not in the restricted zones of 100km from a border and 50km from the coast. If you look at Mexican history, and the losses of land that was occupied and then taken over, you can understand the reasoning that led to the restriction in the 1917 constitution.

bajajudy - 1-8-2006 at 10:43 AM

And, of course, you can own land if you are a Mexican citizen. I can't wait to get my citizenship so I can tell HSBC to take a hike.
:smug:

elizabeth - 1-8-2006 at 10:54 AM

Judy,

That is, from my point of view, the best way to deal with the trust/ownership issue. Once I get permanently settle, I intend to do that as well. I also think that becoming a citizen of the country in which you live says something about your commitment to be more than a tourist, but rather a permanent resident of a community with all the benefits and responsibilities that entails. Besides, just think of the fun of having two passports to use!

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by elizabeth]

oladulce - 1-8-2006 at 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
If you look at Mexican history, and the losses of land that was occupied and then taken over, you can understand the reasoning that led to the restriction in the 1917 constitution.


Yes, in 1917 !

Is it pride? the dynamics of the US/Mexico relationship? Would it be that difficult to amend their constitution to allow direct foreign ownership in the restricted zones? I guess there's really no motivation for them to change this law because they have us by the shorts and those of us who it effects must not have a very influential voice. Are they really concerned about bands of wild, gray-haired retirees and ex-pats occupying their coasts? Hang on, maybe we are...

We'll never qualify for Mexican citizenship because we'll only live there half of each year when we retire so we'll always have a fideicomiso.

It was interesting to compare the purchase of our other retirement property in Central America to the Mexican process:
- Fee simple title ownership
- the entire process was completed in 1 month
- total fees and taxes =$2,000
- no special Impact studies, permits or "concessions" will be needed to build on the beach.
- zero capital gains tax

Part of the "charm" of owning property in Mexico has worn off over the years along with the permits, "incentive payments" that are often needed to get some government officials to do their jobs, and the overall lack of accountability. Seems like we're in the thick of this crap a lot lately and hopefully, once we get our other property finally sold and finish building our retirement home, we won't have to deal with it so often.

[Edited on 1-9-2006 by oladulce]

Mexican Citizenship

bajajudy - 1-8-2006 at 02:36 PM

Well, this is my home now. I have nothing but a storage unit in the states and, boy, do I wish I didnt even have that....6 years rent...muy carro.
Also, with our new business, we need to become part of this community that we call home. I must add that one of the unexpected pluses of having the business is all the wonderful local people we have met and become friends with. That feeling of community that you didnt even miss until you have it again. I cherish my newly found Mexican friends. Just one more thing that I have to be thankful for in my new life.
Gracias a Dios

bajalou - 1-8-2006 at 04:00 PM

I think that the "Are they really concerned about bands of wild, gray-haired, retirees and ex-pats occupying their coasts? Hang on, maybe we are..." would never have a chance at all if the law were changed. Some lessons learned need to be remembered.

Dave - 1-8-2006 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
Judy,

That is, from my point of view, the best way to deal with the trust/ownership issue. Once I get permanently settle, I intend to do that as well. I also think that becoming a citizen of the country in which you live says something about your commitment to be more than a tourist, but rather a permanent resident of a community with all the benefits and responsibilities that entails. Besides, just think of the fun of having two passports to use!


Something to think about before you take the plunge:

If you become a Mexican citizen you can no longer hide behind your U.S. passport. When in Mexico, never carry both.

Osprey - 1-8-2006 at 07:26 PM

Dual citizenship has some fairly obvious advantages for gringos with property in Mexico. Before I would give up my FM3 I would like to know any disadvantages of obtaining dual citizenship. My quote "if you like the way Mexico treats its citizens, you're gonna love living full time under their laws with your new-found dual status." What can one lose? How do Mexican courts treat those who enjoy the status? What brand new legal responsibilities come with the new status? Any changes in how the U.S. treats your citizenry status once you spit it? Anybody have good stories, bad stories, been there, done that?

elizabeth - 1-10-2006 at 05:01 PM

Dave

I wasn't thinking about using both passports at the same time...just joking about things like using the US passport to go into the US and the Mexican passport to get back into Mexico...using whichever works best in other countries.

I'm not sure I know what you mean about "hiding" behind a US passport...

Bob and Susan - 1-10-2006 at 06:42 PM

Have you ever walked across the border...no border agents to ask you ANY questions...just come-on-in....

just when you go thru the turnstyle don't think you're returning that easy.

We keep them out....they don't keep us out

oladulce - 1-10-2006 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho

Sure are. In spite of the constitution, the way it's going, within a short time not many Mexicans are going to be able to afford desirable coastal real estate in their own country. I can't fault some resentment on their part...

--Larry


I know how they feel Larry. I can't afford desirable coastal real estate in my own country either, and I resent that there are way too many rich people.

[Edited on 1-11-2006 by oladulce]

Skeet/Loreto - 1-11-2006 at 07:15 PM

Dulce:
I am confused at your statement?
Why do you resent that there "Are to many Rich People"?

What do you resent about Rich people?

Skeet/Loreto

Dave - 1-11-2006 at 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oladulce
Quote:
Originally posted by lencho

Sure are. In spite of the constitution, the way it's going, within a short time not many Mexicans are going to be able to afford desirable coastal real estate in their own country. I can't fault some resentment on their part...

--Larry


I know how they feel Larry. I can't afford desirable coastal real estate in my own country either, and I resent that there are way too many rich people.




Of course, you realize it's all the Mexicans fault. If they didn't work so cheap the rich, wouldn't be. ;)

oladulce - 1-11-2006 at 10:21 PM

Guess I wasn't very clear Skeet.

Larry pointed out that Mexicans may resent Foreigners for moving in and raising the cost of coastal property in Baja.

My friends joke that the abundance of "rich people" coming from who-knows-where is the reason we can't afford to buy a home at the beach where we grew up in Calif. I thought that this comparison to the Mexican viewpoint was interesting.

You're right Skeet, I shouldn't try to be funny.

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by oladulce]

Skeet/Loreto - 1-12-2006 at 09:25 AM

Dulce: thanks for the Post.
You know that in many small towns in the USA, the cost of property has gone up so fast that many people cannot buy up any of the Property.

But those Rich are generally the ones who were not Rich 20 years ago.

Interesting economics.

mcgyver - 1-12-2006 at 10:13 AM

It is not just the beaches! I recently investigated the prices in the little village of San Matias on Highway 1, it is at an altitude of 3300 feet and somewhat cooler in the summer than San Felipe. When I lived nearby (off Mikes Sky Ranch Rd.) in the early '90s bare lots could be had for less than $1000, simple block or adobe house for $3000 or less.
San Matias was discovered in the mid '90s by the gringos, SS retirees, retired military and San Felipe persons wanting a cooler summer place. Now in 2006 it has been infiltrated by El Dorado Ranch overflow, San Felipe professionals etc.
Now expect to be asked $20,000 for the simple block house on a single lot, $3000 for a bare lot and $50,000 for a nice 2 bedroom home and there are a few much more than that.
The only surprising thing to me is that any Mexican who can get out of the place has not moved to Corona, Ca. or some where like it where they can live the good life too.
Quote:


Sure are. In spite of the constitution, the way it's going, within a short time not many Mexicans are going to be able to afford desirable coastal real estate in their own country. I can't fault some resentment on their part...

--Larry

ADDENDUM

mcgyver - 1-12-2006 at 10:22 AM

I once leased a 200 Acre rancho with adobe house, shade trees, windmill with good water on a running river, fenced with locked gates, 8 miles from the beach, 17 miles from San Quintin for the enormous sum of $30 a month. Wish I had took a 30 year lease on it!