BajaNomad

A Warming World: The Difference A Degree Makes

BajaNews - 1-17-2006 at 06:50 PM

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/...

- Jane Kay
January 17, 2006

Cabo Pulmo, Mexico -- When Jesus Castro-Fiol died last year at the age of 107, he was survived by seven children, all living in this little settlement on the Sea of Cortez, and by two generations of grandchildren.

The four generations had many things in common: a rich sense of family, a dependence on the sea for their food and livelihood, and a respect for the natural wonders that draw tourists here over many miles of bumpy dirt roads -- the spectacular Cabo Pulmo Reef and the giant gray whales that migrate from the Bering Sea to give birth in the lagoons of Baja California Sur.

At one time, the Castros joined the throngs of people fishing the 7-mile-long reef. But in the last decades, they stopped taking sea life from the ocean nursery. Instead, they take scuba divers to it.

They became environmentalists, organizing Cabo Pulmo to protect the fragile reef, the northernmost living coral reef off North America, from the overfishing and injury that threatened it.

But in Castro-Fiol's last years, the family watched as a warming climate began to put their way of life at risk.

They saw parts of the reef sicken from a too-warm sea. They saw whales change their behavior, circling the Baja peninsula in new patterns in search of cool water. They saw a new tropical disease, dengue fever, emerge in Baja after a severe hurricane and kill a member of the family.

Ricardo Castro-Fiol, a grandson of Jesus Castro-Fiol who dives at the reef about once a day year-round, said the warming waters and stronger currents have changed the sea. "We can feel the difference,'' he said.

The death from dengue fever in 2003 of his aunt, Maria Castro, 54, who 30 years ago opened the only restaurant on the pristine beach, is the only known fatality from the disease in Cabo Pulmo.

Public health researchers warn that as global temperatures continue to rise, the mosquito species that carries the fever will multiply. In addition, models of how the Earth's warming will affect global climates indicate intensifying storms and flash floods that could aid the insect's spread.

Now when tropical storms come to Baja, many people fear more than losing electricity and roads washing out. The phrase common in Cabo Pulmo is "calentando'' -- global warming.

The coral

The reef starts only 100 yards off the beach, a lush underwater forest of red, orange, yellow and purple corals. Farther out, in 70 feet of water, divers find the coral's massive skeletons of calcium carbonate and nose into caves full of puffer fish, groupers, yellow-tailed angel fish, octopus, tiger sharks and turtles.

Coral reefs are the world's most biologically diverse ocean ecosystems. The reef, or frame, formed by living animals holds a million species in an intricate connection of lower organisms, fish, birds, turtles and marine mammals.

Fisheries near reefs supply protein to millions of the world's poorest people, an estimated one-quarter of the fish catch in developing countries. In such isolated communities as Cabo Pulmo, the portion is much higher.

But in the past 30 years, rising sea temperatures associated with global warming have been linked to a dramatic increase in the intensity and extent of damage to reefs known as bleaching.

Scientists warn that continued warming could weaken or wipe out corals around the world, and severely reduce the life in the ocean. They also warn that increased carbon dioxide in the ocean may impede the growth of the corals.

Jesus Castro-Fiol, a fisherman, was the first Castro to see the reef. Family lore says he could free-dive 75 feet for mother-of-pearl.

One by one, all the children found the vast underwater world -- three main reefs and seven smaller fingers. It was a prime fishing ground for the Castros and other commercial fishermen.

It wasn't until 1978 that Juan Castro-Monta?o, a son of Jesus Castro-Fiol, began taking tourists out to the reef to dive. When the divers came back to the boat, they raved about the corals' beauty.

He wanted to see for himself, and went snorkeling. "When I saw the coral, I saw how fragile it was, how beautiful it was," Castro-Monta?o said.

But, he added, "that was also when I realized how important it was, and we were destroying it.'' The divers, on the other hand, "weren't hurting anything. They were just taking pictures.''

Fishing boats took thousands of tons of sea life out of the corals every year. The reef was littered with fishing gear, anchors and harpoons left by Yankee whalers, which had broken corals that took decades to grow an inch.

He spoke to some political leaders and bureaucrats about preserving it, but could get no action. In the early 1980s, some teachers from the Universidad Autonoma de Baja California Sur turned up. They talked to him about his interest in the reef, and from then on they brought students.

By then, he didn't need to persuade his family and other people in town to change from commercial fishing to tourism, he said. "My cousins and my uncles were doing commercial fishing all day, and then they'd have to go to San Jose or La Paz to sell the fish. They'd see me taking tourists diving -- and I'd make more money.''

Cabo Pulmo finally got national attention after Jacques Cousteau came looking for Castro-Monta?o in 1986, he said. In 1995 President Ernesto Zedillo signed a law creating the Cabo Pulmo National Marine Reserve, banning fishing. The village is still waiting for a management plan and for help from marine police in patrolling the reserve.

Oscar Arizpe-Covarrubias and Hector Reyes-Bonilla, coral researchers at the University of Baja California Sur, say the reef system, with 10 species of sea fans and other branched corals and 12 of stony corals, is one of the most stable in the eastern Pacific -- for now.

It suffered spots of bleaching in 1982-83 and 1997-98, periods of strong El Ni?os, fluxes of warmer water that come from the tropics.

"Now, we see mostly healthy coral and some bad coral,'' said Ricardo Castro-Fiol, the diver who takes tourists to the reef.

"I see some of the corals coming back,'' he said.

When water warms by 3 to 6 degrees, algae that live in symbiosis with the living coral disappear, exposing the white calcium carbonate skeletons of the coral colony. The bleaching can kill the corals.

The last bleaching event, in 1997-98, was the worst on record, and killed coral in parts of Asia, the eastern Pacific and the Caribbean.

As carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere continue to rise, and the Earth's atmosphere and oceans both warm, these events will become common within 20 years, and will occur annually in most tropical oceans in 30 to 50 years, scientists predict.

If levels double by 2100, the heat tolerances of reef corals will be exceeded within a few decades, projects the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change -- a group of 2,000 scientists from 100 countries.

Oceanographers say damage to northern reefs such as Cabo Pulmo will lag behind changes in the tropics, where reefs already live at temperatures near their thermal limits. Scientists say corals can't evolve fast enough to shift to more hospitable regions as ocean temperatures change.

"Cabo Pulmo is of great ecological importance because it's the northernmost coral reef of the eastern Pacific,'' said Arizpe-Covarrubias, the researcher. "The animals and plants are different from elsewhere in the Pacific.

"And it's of great importance for the people living there. The quality of their lives is better now that they use the coral not for fishing but just for tourists.''

Whales

At this time of year, Pacific gray whales are returning to Baja California from their main feeding grounds in the Bering and Chukchi seas, a journey of more than 5,000 miles that is the longest migration of any mammal.

In their home lagoons on the Pacific Ocean side of the Baja Peninsula, females will bear and nurse the young before returning north in April.

At times, the whales swim around the peninsula to Cabo Pulmo on the East Cape. The whales bound in the waves, entertaining onlookers with their spouting antics.

The villagers think of the grays as the friendliest of the marine mammals. Mother gray whales come with babies to waters as shallow as 25 feet.

But just as warming ocean waters are affecting corals, the warming of Arctic and subarctic waters appears to be affecting whales. They are searching for food in different places in the north, just as they're changing swimming patterns in the Sea of Cortez.

At the University of Baja California Sur in La Paz, Jorge Urban-Ramirez, an expert on whales, coordinates the Marine Mammal Research Program.

He and his colleagues see the gray whale as an indicator of changing ecosystems, rather than an immediate victim. Unlike corals, sea stars and millions of other species, he said, whales can move, and they've done so over the millennia.

"The gray whales spend all of their life in shallow water on the continental shelf,'' he said. "If they want to live in a changing environment, they have to adapt to different encumbrances.''

During one La Ni?a year, when the water was colder than usual, the whales swam north in the gulf all the way to Kino Bay, looking for warmer water, he said. They had stopped swimming up there in the 1950s and 1960s when small boat traffic got too thick.

Why the whales migrate to the Arctic to feed might be tied to the end of past glacial periods, Urban-Ramirez said.

Perhaps whales were always born in the lagoons, he said, and they have always fed on fatty amphipods that live at the rich edge of sea ice. But 10,000 years ago, glaciers reached farther south in North America. When the glaciers receded, the amphipods went north and the gray whales followed.

Now, researchers say the whales' food supply is diminishing in the Bering Sea; amphipods have declined over the last 25 years as currents in the North Pacific Ocean warmed and sea ice gradually melted and thinned.

The warmest water temperatures on the continental shelf of the eastern Bering Sea were first recorded in the summer of 1997, the same El Ni?o year of the bleaching of corals in Cabo Pulmo and many parts of the world.

That year, a small phytoplankton replaced the normal summer phytoplankton, profoundly affecting the rest of the food chain, according to National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration scientists. When the zooplankton couldn't eat the smaller phytoplankton, their numbers were reduced, seabirds starved, and salmon runs declined.

Since then, the warming trend has continued in the bottom level and at the top of the northern Bering Sea. The numbers of the whales' favorite amphipods and other sea life remain at low levels.

Hundreds of gray whales stranded dead along beaches from Mexico to Alaska on the northern migration in 1999 and 2000. Whale scientists counted 200 dead in Mexico and observed that one in 10 looked emaciated.

The cause of the deaths remains unknown. One theory is that the whales went to their traditional feeding grounds, found a poor food supply, and then had to forage in less rich seas.

"There are not as many whales being stranded as before,'' said Jackie Grebmeier, a biological oceanographer at the University of Tennessee who will go to the Arctic this spring to continue ecosystem studies.

"There are more gray whales traveling farther north to feed, and staying north longer.''

Dengue fever

In August 2003, Hurricane Ignacio raged over the tip of the Baja Peninsula with 105 mph winds and 15 inches of rain. The desert's rutted roads and the town's potholes filled with water. In previous years, people would suffer symptoms of dengue fever, a disease spread by mosquitoes. But that year, nearly everyone in the village was sick.

Maria Castro, the wife of Juan Castro-Monta?o and mother of four, woke up ill on Sept. 1, six days after the hurricane. Over the next three days she went to two different clinics.

A health worker at the first clinic sent her home with some medicine. A doctor at the second clinic told her she shouldn't be taking the medicine. By then, ill and fevered, she was so dehydrated she needed intravenous fluids.

On the fourth day she died.

"We later found out that you're not supposed to take anything -- not anything, not vitamins, not anything, said her daughter, Angeles Castro-Murillo. "Only Tylenol and water.''

A border publication, Frontera Norte Sur, reported 1,319 suspected cases of the fever in Baja California Sur that summer.

International researchers began to warn that the cases raised concerns not only for the sick but also for future generations: if the Earth continues to warm, warmer temperatures and intensifying storms and floods would stimulate the reproduction of carrier mosquitoes of dengue fever, malaria and yellow fever.

According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, about 5 percent of those who get dengue fever die, but with proper treatment, the rate can be reduced to 1 percent. There is no vaccine or medication.

In 2005, dengue was the world's most widespread mosquito-borne viral disease affecting humans, according to the CDC. As with malaria, an estimated 2.5 billion people live in areas at risk of epidemics. Already epidemics sicken millions a year with dengue fever, scientists say; only a small fraction of the cases get reported.

Last year, World Health Organization researchers reported that the worst outbreak in years was due to heavy rains and warmer temperatures. In Asia alone, dengue fever infected some 120,000 people in 2005, killing at least 1,000.

It takes freezing temperatures to kill eggs of Aedes, the mosquito carrier of both dengue and yellow fever. So, warming trends can shift the mosquito and the distribution of the disease to higher latitudes and altitudes, said Jonathan Patz, a University of Wisconsin environmental health physician who worked on the report.

Warmer water produces smaller adult mosquitoes, which have to feed more frequently to develop an egg batch, he explained. The time to develop the virus inside the mosquito also shortens with higher temperatures, increasing the proportion of mosquitoes that become infectious, he said.

In a Mexico study, the most important predictor of the prevalence of dengue was found to be the median temperature during the rainy season.

Beneath the shade of palm fronds at Maria Castro's open-air restaurant, La Palapa, Angeles Castro-Murillo was serving her mother's invention, "Enchiladas de Do?a Maria,'' filled with chopped avocados and onions, banded with pale yellow cheese.

"My mother was a wonderful cook," she said. "She fed the divers. But she didn't like the ocean. We couldn't get her to go down to the water."

The death of her mother remains a heavy loss for the family, as does the fear that the carrier mosquito could return to Baja.

Life has changed in Cabo Pulmo, and the descendants of Jesus Castro-Fiol know it's just the beginning.

[Edited on 1-18-2006 by BajaNews]

djh - 1-17-2006 at 07:45 PM

Thanks for posting, BajaNews. The link you posted didn't work however by clicking on it. Had to copy and paste it... Maybe because it is so long and took 2 lines..?

( http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/17/M... )

Thanks for posting and sharing this. Another wake up call.... There are lots of indications for our collective future for those who care to pay attention.

djh

David K - 1-17-2006 at 07:48 PM

The world is dynamic, not static... it warms then cools, then warms again... Has been doing this for millions of years before automobiles or factories!

bajalou - 1-17-2006 at 08:31 PM

Was reading just this afternoon at a rest stop on I 40 in Calif. how the planet has been warming for the lats 20,000 years.

David K - 1-17-2006 at 11:46 PM

Yep, and in our lifetime we cannot even begin to see a pattern.

Things have changed since I was a kid. I remember Santa Anas (dry, warm wind from the east) always came in September. Now, they are rare and come in the winter. However, who's to say that was normal back in the 60's or was that period abnormal?

I have been going to the same coastline in Baja for 40 years and can tell you the sea level has not gone up during those years... Otherwise, the low salt flat areas would be constantly underwater, Shell Island would be a full time island (not just at highest tides) if not gone altogether!

The places they show encroaching ocean levels are actually areas that are geologically sinking... like Venice, London, etc.

Relax, enjoy your short time on this planet... Go to Baja!

djh - 1-18-2006 at 08:39 AM

"Relax, enjoy your short time on this planet... Go to Baja! "

Now THERE'S some great advice we can all agree on, eh?

djh

gringorio - 1-18-2006 at 09:17 AM

What a well written in-depth article. I will argue though, that all of us who enjoy Baja and the Sea of Cortez should not take the ?what ever will happen, will happen? attitude. Issues like global warming are complex and it is important to distinguish between *natural* or cyclical oscillations in temperatures or sea levels and human behaviors that exacerbate these cyclical changes.

Yes, the processes on the planet are dynamic and yes we can see patterns that within our lifetimes, that?s what the discipline of science has been helping us to see ? and why we should be concerned about the things we do that exacerbate potentially catastrophic changes in climate.

So, I would say ?Relax, enjoy your short time on this planet and do what you can do to mitigate the negative environmental problems caused by short-sighted human enterprise... then, go to Baja and enjoy!?

gringorio

:bounce:
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The world is dynamic, not static... it warms then cools, then warms again... Has been doing this for millions of years before automobiles or factories!

David K - 1-18-2006 at 09:35 AM

One volcanic eruption can produce 100's of times more ozone depleating gasses than all the cars ever did... How can you control volcanic eruptions?

The earth is a LOT stronger than we little people give her credit for... The ozone layer is STILL there, after millions of years of volcanic eruptions...

Now, I do agree we can keep the planet beautiful by doable, simple things... such as haul out what you haul in... no trash or grafitti spray paint to make Baja ugly... don't pave anymore roads... stuff like that!:biggrin:

Skeet/Loreto - 1-18-2006 at 10:18 AM

Orio?
A very good discussion about aspects of the Planet. thanks to all!

"negative problems caused by short sighted enterprises"

There has been a good deal of enterprises such as Wind Machines to produce Power. Now the enviormentals are claiming Negative problems with the Bird population.

Instead of the enterprises sicking their Heads in the Sand, and the Envuormentasl attaching all problems with no thought of the Future?Solutions, I think that if we can between us develop "common Sense "approach we will make Headway or Positive Results.

I dove on the coral Reef at Cabo Pulmo in 1968. Still have Photos, taken with the first of an underwater Camera{ A regular camera contained within a Plastic Box.

Skeet.Loreto

ursidae69 - 1-18-2006 at 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
One volcanic eruption can produce 100's of times more ozone depleating gasses than all the cars ever did... How can you control volcanic eruptions?

The earth is a LOT stronger than we little people give her credit for... The ozone layer is STILL there, after millions of years of volcanic eruptions...

Now, I do agree we can keep the planet beautiful by doable, simple things... such as haul out what you haul in... no trash or grafitti spray paint to make Baja ugly... don't pave anymore roads... stuff like that!:biggrin:


David, you mean greenhouse gases, not ozone depleting. Such eruptions could be the cause of the cyclic changes we see over geologic time. The added greenhouse gases from humans is causing recordable changes that we can see in human time. Seeing such changes in a hundred years is unheard of in the geologic record. No one is disputing that change is not a normal part of this planet, just that the rate of change is off the charts in just our short time in this place compared to the rest of the time the earth has been here. Point is, we can all do something to make it better if we try.

In the meantime, still enjoy Baja, I know I do. :cool:
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There has been a good deal of enterprises such as Wind Machines to produce Power. Now the enviormentals are claiming Negative problems with the Bird population.

Instead of the enterprises sicking their Heads in the Sand, and the Envuormentasl attaching all problems with no thought of the Future?Solutions, I think that if we can between us develop "common Sense "approach we will make Headway or Positive Results.



Skeet, don't forget the huge bat mortalities caused from wind power. The environmental groups have been working with the wind power industry from day one and who knew this would happen? It's part of the learning process and the newest wind plants coming online are bird and bat friendly. All they had to do was make the blades larger and slower. Makes just as much electricity, if not more so because the blades are so large. The wind power industry is an example of a common sense approach between industry and environmental groups that is working.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-18-2006 at 12:26 PM

Very Right!
Now if the same type of people involved could do something about the 50% catch of Salmon given to the Indians..

common Sense???

The wind companies are getting ready to put Wind Machines in the Texas Panhandle. It is being well done, but do they forget the Wild Turkeys ? I hope so.

I think that if we could get some good People into the Dairy Bio-mass problem that a Solution could be reached Forthwith, but the California Enviors are a Special Breed with no 'Common Sense"' they take their History from the sierra club, which is only interested in Money and Members, Publicity.

there needs to be a new Breed of Envior educated and trained in the art of 'Common Sense.

Skeet/Loreto

wilderone - 1-19-2006 at 04:05 PM

"there needs to be a new Breed of Envior educated and trained in the art of 'Common Sense."

Environmental education is out there for each and everyone. The problem is that people turn their backs on it and are unwilling to change their lifestyles. Overpackaging filling our landfills - everyone can do something about that; riding ATVs over every single living thing in a desert and destroying it for all time - is that common sense? But will those ATV riders give up their precious driving around in circles for no apparent reason? Common sense or stupidity and selfishness? Bio-dairymass? Say what? What about the pig farmers polluting rivers? Mining pollution? Logging our forests until less than 10% of US forests are left? Recycling - we can all do something about that. Many reports are out there providing how much money and landfill space is saved by recycling. Solar power has been around a long time, but is it embraced for its solutions? Skeet, how many flourescent light bulbs do you have in your house? The Earth's flora and fauna are disappearing due to mankind's actions or inactions - and it's accelerated over the past generation with no slowdown in sight. The message just isn't getting across. And you have no idea what the Sierra Club stands for, what it does locally, nationally and globally. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of environmental organizations - each one trying desparately to accomplish SOMETHING to save the Earth from self-destruction. Your criticism of those actually doing something in this regard - and putting yourself on the other side of the fence - tells me you have no common sense. Do yourself a favor and find out how many environmental organizations there are in your town and what their agendas are. Save a canyon? Clean a river? Promote Solar energy? Limit hunting? Limit building in open space? Acquire open space? Wildlife corridors? Advocate clean industry? Recycling? Do you have a regional Sierra Club office? Educate yourself and find what they really do. You'll find that for the most part, they have a good time. Old thinking is choking the life out of new ideas before they have a chance to take hold - and that is the only thing that stands in the way of the "new breed of enviro."

Skeet/Loreto - 1-19-2006 at 04:45 PM

Yhere are many Envior Groups from Calif. to Texas that I am aware Have a name, claiming to be Envior, even some have an Office, and even others have several Grants_Good or Bad- from the local colleges and some Govt. Groups.

My point is speelewd out in your Post.

Always attack from Pig Farms to Hunters but never any offer or
Solution!!!!!!!!!.

Just Stop all Business??
Just stop all Daires???
Prevent millions from eating Beef or Chicken??
Stop all Building by Wood_This has just about been done-now the Cost of Heating a House made from Steel is nearly doubled!!!!More use of energy!
Stop anyone from Producing 4 wheel Off Terrian VehiclesOr do as they do and allow them to go to the Walking Sands in southern_ Calif. Sometimes 300,000 or those Noisey buggers!!! are there on a Week-end.

If we do as most enviorswant us do it would shut down our economy, put millions out of Work_Where would we get out BBQ Ribs??????Milk?????? Eggs?????

Where groups such as the Sierra Club promotes the Debackle at Kalamath Falls Oregon goes to show their Complete Lack of Respect for the Human Race

I live within 20 miles of the place where Nukes are dismantled-Pantex-amarillo Texas. No envior Problems.If there were, what would you suggest, no Nukes, then let Iran and N, Korea use them on Us??

Wildone; If everyone is willing to Pay for the things Proposed by the Ebvior Groups, then I say go for it, but when these Groups want something done thzt THEY THINK is for the Good, then let them Pay for It/

Such as the Dam to the West of Pt. angeles Wash. the enviors want to Blazt so the fish will swim bacvk up the river.. O.K but the envior group should Foot the bill.

Skeet/Loreto

Environmentalists

tehag - 1-19-2006 at 05:00 PM

Wilderone:

Bingo. Alas, a small voice, but with the cajones to speak the unvarnished truth about the "head-in-the-sand" stance of waaaayy too many people.

TMW - 1-19-2006 at 06:59 PM

Whenever there is talk of cleaning the environment it usually means developed countries need to do more, especially the U.S. Since this thread started with a story from Cabo Pulmo, Mexico, may I suggest that the underdeveloped countries like Mexico develope a standard and start smog testing all internal combustion engines and take those that don't pass out of service. While their at it they could also make sure the head lights work and are aimed correctly.

It's always 'bugged' me that...

Mexray - 1-19-2006 at 07:55 PM

...there is little control of emissions from the thousands of Jet engine powered aircraft that take off and land each and every day!

We now have more stringent emissions controls of small single cylinder engines in California, IE lawn mower engineers, leaf blowers, 2-cycle engines, marine engines, small generators, motorcycles engines, etc., etc....but you never read about emission levels of jet engine powered aircraft!

Without collection of any real data, I still can't help but believe these thousands of jet flights each day spew tons and tons of 'unhealthy' gasses and solids into our surroundings! Of course, who is going to take on the airline industry?

I be willing to bet that only a few take-offs of 747 sized aircraft spew more stuff into the air than all the small engines used in California in a year! Lest we not forget, those same aircraft operate a lot nearer the ozone layer than our 'earth-based' engines on the ground...something to think about...

I'm far from being a trained scientist in this area, but it seems to be that our collective government agencies have passed laws to regulate individuals that own internal combustion engines - cars, trucks, boats, tractors, generators, lawn mowers, etc...because they can put the pressure to us as individuals - but - it's much more difficult to control the large industries, such as the airlines, that have massive lobbying efforts to support their efforts...

There is also the added problem that these large airliners probably wouldn't have the power needed to fly if they had to curb their emissions to the degrees mandated of the automotive industry! Do you hear a 'catch 22' message, here? Do we want breath, to fly, or do we want to use Greyhound, passenger liners and Amtrak?



[Edited on 1-20-2006 by Mexray]

djh - 1-19-2006 at 08:37 PM

Gotta add my $.02.

Labelling and marginalizing one another (enviro / anti-enviro, etc.) seperates us from each other and from realistic, workable solutions.

Calling someone else a generalized name (liberal, redneck, enviro, etc.) is easy. It is also what children who lack social development and basic respect do... and what I try to teach them about.

My kindrgarten lesson (seriously... I am an elementary school counselor) that we talked about today is:

Attack the problem, not the person. And - Diversity makes us stronger. A community NEEDS diversity to be strong, balanced and interesting.

Ok. Recess is over. Get back to work ;)

David K - 1-20-2006 at 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by djh
Gotta add my $.02.

Labelling and marginalizing one another (enviro / anti-enviro, etc.) seperates us from each other and from realistic, workable solutions.

Calling someone else a generalized name (liberal, redneck, enviro, etc.) is easy. It is also what children who lack social development and basic respect do... and what I try to teach them about.

My kindrgarten lesson (seriously... I am an elementary school counselor) that we talked about today is:

Attack the problem, not the person. And - Diversity makes us stronger. A community NEEDS diversity to be strong, balanced and interesting.

Ok. Recess is over. Get back to work ;)


Well stated!:light:

Skeet/Loreto - 1-20-2006 at 06:27 PM

DjH; Diversity makes us Stronger????

Why??
How?

Diversity- The state or Form of being diverse. unlikeness, difference: Varitey, multiformity.

I am concerned that if every aspect of our life is made Diverse that there will no longer be an Individuality of the past Mores that have made this nation Great, those things, such as Honesty, Respect,Morals, Kindness etc.

Labels are meant for identifing a particuliar group, not always as an insult such as:
Extreme Left Mostly aganist Communist/Socialist Types
Liberals
Moderates
conservative
Right Wing--Mostly aganist Religions Groups

Do you think that we as Children should give up our Moral Character just to make someone different "Feel Good"?

All of the above is ask in a Serious manner.

Skeet/Loreto

bajajudy - 1-20-2006 at 06:40 PM

The answer to all of these problems is really quite simple:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

No one seems to care about what we will leave our children.
Only about today.

We live on a big round ball, we never even think that we will fall.
A ball is a finite object. Eventually it will make the big suck noise and poof. hasta la vista, babies:(

Pretty simplistic but I do believe we are using up our ball too fast.

djh - 1-20-2006 at 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
DjH; Diversity makes us Stronger????

Why??
How?

Diversity- The state or Form of being diverse. unlikeness, difference: Varitey, multiformity.

I am concerned that if every aspect of our life is made Diverse that there will no longer be an Individuality of the past Mores that have made this nation Great, those things, such as Honesty, Respect,Morals, Kindness etc.

Labels are meant for identifing a particuliar group, not always as an insult such as:

*I agree with you... not always...!

Extreme Left Mostly aganist Communist/Socialist Types
Liberals
Moderates
conservative
Right Wing--Mostly aganist Religions Groups

Do you think that we as Children should give up our Moral Character just to make someone different "Feel Good"?

All of the above is ask in a Serious manner.

Skeet/Loreto


Hi Skeet,

Thanks for your sincere questions. I'll try to express my thoughts as sincerely. You're my senior, so I respectfully hope this doesn't sound like a lecture... just my view, ok?

Firstly, I always appreciate your experiences, perspectives, and opinions here... I've watched for quite a while before ever signing on too. You have experiences (and thus perspectives) that I don't, and I try to 1. find value for myself in those experiences and perspectives (especially related to Loreto), and 2. think about your views, and try to understand them, even when they're different from mine..... so thanks . .

Next, because of your experiences and your views (and willingness to share them here with us), you are the individual that you describe: "Individual[ity] of the past Mores that have made this nation Great, those things, such as Honesty, Respect, Morals, Kindness etc.". You and I (and many others here) share those important priorities, regardless of our opinions on different topics.

Right.... Labels don't have to, but can, and have historically often been used to, marginalize individuals and groups. In my own experiences and international travels, I (for myself) have tried to understand WHY someone I meet and get to know believes what they believe.... For me, there is a difference between respectful discussion and simply trying to argue a point with the intent of proving the other wrong or "deciding" who is right. (The word decide has its origins in.... basically... killing off (cide - as in insecticide, biocide, etc... alternatives to arrive at one.)

Both discussion and decision (conclusion oriented debate) have their place and value, for sure. I try not to spend too much time in discussion with someone who only transmits (and has a broken receiver), or someone who disrespects me because of my individual (and sometimes evolvig) perspective or view.

Diversity. Biological diversity sustains us and many other creatures on our planet. Cultural diversity is one of the reasons many of us are attracted to Baja, Mexico, and travel in general. Intellectual diversity leads to new and creative solutions in many human areas. And honestly.... I'd get tired of the same old same old flavor of ice cream if there were only one - or only one type of music (I love a variety of musical styles... diversity).

I was born on one side of the planet, my wife, girlfriend, travel buddy, and best friend (all one in the same :) ) was born on the other side. I am, perpetually, plesantly surprised by our different experiences, and my own experiences when I let go of my "comfortable familiar" and adventure in her home, culture, family, traditions, etc.

BTW, since you asked.... I'm not real caught up in "making someone different feel good", but I do try to spend more of my personal / choice time around people who are positive and genuinely happy... And I don't think I really "give up [any] moral character" by considering or tolerating other views or enjoying another place, culture, experience, etc. That's just me...

Sheesh... I wrote a book. (and I feel a bit exposed ) Sorry.... Ok Nomads.... Edit that down to a sentance or two for me ;)

Thanks, Skeet.
djh

ursidae69 - 1-21-2006 at 12:11 AM

Quote:

Sheesh... I wrote a book. (and I feel a bit exposed ) Sorry.... Ok Nomads.... Edit that down to a sentance or two for me ;)
djh


Thanks for your posting, you put a smile on my face and literally made my whole weekend. :yes:

Skeet/Loreto - 1-21-2006 at 08:36 AM

djh:
Thanks for your Answer.
The story of my Life. I am always interested in one"s background in an effort to find out"Where they are coming from"' i.e. their experiences sometimes give me a clue to their position.
I have been trained to ask Questions.

Most of my concerns are for the Children of Today and their Teachings:
On one hand you have those Religious Groups in our culture teaching all the Mores and ways of their community.
On the other side you have the Teachings of change, diversity, no restraint etc.

I do not think at this time nor in the near future that Diversity in the USA will be obtained. Groups of like kind can get more of the Goodies in Life than those who seek Divirsity.

Thanks for the Post, I am going to copy this one for my Paper file.

Skeet/Loreto

I digress, but...

Cardon Man - 1-21-2006 at 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

Such as the Dam to the West of Pt. angeles Wash. the enviors want to Blazt so the fish will swim bacvk up the river.. O.K but the envior group should Foot the bill.

Skeet/Loreto


It's alot more than Enviros that want the dams off the Elwha Skeet. I don't know any Olympic peninsula fishermen who want them in. Those two dams provide nothing in the way power and they have done a great job of screwing up one of the best salmon rivers in North America! Did you know that there were once 100lb plus kings in that river? The enviros don't need to foot the bill...anyone who loves catching salmon should. I believe you fall into that group no?

djh - 1-21-2006 at 09:49 AM

We likely have more in common than first thought on our side-discussion, Skeet.

As an elementary school counselor, I spend an incredible amount of time teaching and reinforcing boundaries and trying to help build respect, personal accountability, and self-discipline.

In my small town, in my one school of about 450 K-5 kids.... about 10 years ago, I started saying "looking down this one hallway, I believe I can see the fabric of our society starting to unravel."

That was 10 years ago. Today, it is much more so. Rampant POVERTY, transience (40% turnover most years) homeless kids, homeless families, incarcerated parents, parents AND kids on diversion or probation, parents addicted to drugs and alcohol... (the meth problem here is out of control), kids in and out of foster homes or being raised by grandparents, domestic violence, abuse, abandonment, neglect, explosive children, and more and more mentally ill parents AND CHILDREN, every year.

Some days, I have to NOT look at the "Big Picture".... it is like a current too strong to swim in.... I have to get out in the eddyline.... and just think about the next little kid I'm seeing who is "wounded", and I have a bandage to help. If I spend too much time thinking of the big picture, I burn out and become overwhelmed.... And yaknow.. the present administration doesn't recognize or assess those things we do in our "failing schools" nowadays... Here where I work, our schools are NOT failing, our society is, and parenting is... But we show up everyday and do way more than just teach.

I keep reminding myself... I am fortunate to have a job where I help kids (and families) try to "get a grip on their baggage". (and that I'm retiring to Loreto one day very soon!)

Thanks Skeet, and ursidae69,

Cardon Man, I think Skeet and I were the ones digressing - not you... sorry. Back to global warming, right ! ? !
djh

Skeet/Loreto - 1-21-2006 at 10:28 AM

Thanks Again ; We could have a very good conversation about Loreto after you have been there for about a Year. I was a little involved in the School ZKids there , atone time.

Take Care!

on Man: OH the Elwha!-- A private Dam built with Private funds--People who bought and built on Private Land-Perhaps their Dream of Life for themand their childen and GrandChildren!!

Along comes some people who wants to tell them how to live , How their Grandchildren are to Live. Says " You can not longer have your dream-The dream of the Salmon Fish and our read on what should be done is paramount to any of your Rights or desries!!

Therefore we will blaxt the Dam with the Taxpayers Money!!

Man; No!! as a fisherman I will be content to fish Below the Dam and let the "Right' of the people living on the Lake to be respected--Like sometimes the 'common Good" does not Trumph the Individual. especially if the "Common Good is that of a Weak-minded Liberal..

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet/Loreto - 1-21-2006 at 11:06 AM

Wildone:
forgot to answer your question of the Light bulbs. I have at least 20- The Barn I just finished has all of those Squrirlly litle smal Bulbs that last for 8,000 Hours. I have been trying even at my age to do such small things as recycle; wife and I are on the Recycle pick up at Timbercreek.

I have not yet been convinced that this Global Warming Theory is Valid.-In one instant the whole thing can be changed by a Tusami-Earthquake- Volcano etc.

In other words How do you stop the Heat from the Deserts along with particles of Sand being Blaxted into the Atmosphere? that is something we have no control over what so ever!!
there are no SUV'S or very few on the Sahara.

I will await more reliable information before acceptance.

Skeet/Loreto

I digress yet again...

Cardon Man - 1-22-2006 at 09:15 AM

on Man: OH the Elwha!-- A private Dam built with Private funds--People who bought and built on Private Land-Perhaps their Dream of Life for themand their childen and GrandChildren!!

The dams were built to supply power to the mills in Port Angeles. They only provide 40% of the power to the mills and there are other sources. Over 70 miles of river are blocked off to spawning fish. The damns were built with no fish passage of anykind and the result has been devastating to the Elwha's fish. Regarding the "dream" of the builders...screw them. Individuals don't get to destroy our Northwest heritage at their whims. Those fish are for your grandchildren too Skeet. Was it not a true "sin" to let the worlds biggest salmon rot and die at the foot of the damn without spawning?

Along comes some people who wants to tell them how to live , How their Grandchildren are to Live. Says " You can not longer have your dream-The dream of the Salmon Fish and our read on what should be done is paramount to any of your Rights or desries!!

Yes, as already stated salmon are paramount to the land holdings of a very few individuals. That's our resource Skeet...mine and yours.

Therefore we will blaxt the Dam with the Taxpayers Money!!

Yes

Man; No!! as a fisherman I will be content to fish Below the Dam...

I've been doing just that since I was a kid. It can be fun but it's not what it should be. Don't you ever want to see a 100lb king salmon? Or silvers so thick they choke the river? Do you realize that if it wasn't for the hatchery there would be jack squat in that river?

and let the "Right' of the people living on the Lake to be respected--Like sometimes the 'common Good" does not Trumph the Individual. especially if the "Common Good is that of a Weak-minded Liberal..

Weak minded liberal my a*s. I'm talking about the right of every American to experience great fishing on a wild river. Yes, in this case the individual is far less important than the common good.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-22-2006 at 12:20 PM

Man:
When the Dam was built there was no one thinking ahead about Salmon!!
Now it was built by private funds, it should be then destrpyed by Private funds.
It should not be controlled by a bunch of Liberals from Seattle.
It is not right to punish peope for those things done so long ago by their ancestors.
It is the same as making me responsible for the acts of Salvery!!

The pesent is where the changes have to be made, that is the one thing the Liberal cannot seem to understand! that is that you do not Cry and Whine about who did it 100 years ago so you have to Pay, instead of O. K. it is done and past, lets try to improve from here on.!!!


No! Man. I don't have to think about trying to catch a 100 LB. Salmon. It is interesting to watch the Indian Fisherman loading his 50% in the back of his Pick up , in the Hot Sun and driving to the market.

Your way of thinking is just like "Enimant Domain"!

Built at their Whims???? Those people built their Homes many years before a bunch of Liberal Minded People decided to Protect the Salmon.

You think that Your right to catch a Fish where you want to catch a fish is paramount to a person who bought a Piece of Private Property, built a Home rasied his Children to have someone come along a Trunp His
s Rights????

zYes if you PAY
No! if the Govt. has to Pay

Skeet

Cardon Man - 1-22-2006 at 02:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Man:
When the Dam was built there was no one thinking ahead about Salmon!!
Now it was built by private funds, it should be then destrpyed by Private funds.
It should not be controlled by a bunch of Liberals from Seattle.
It is not right to punish peope for those things done so long ago by their ancestors.
It is the same as making me responsible for the acts of Salvery!!

The pesent is where the changes have to be made, that is the one thing the Liberal cannot seem to understand! that is that you do not Cry and Whine about who did it 100 years ago so you have to Pay, instead of O. K. it is done and past, lets try to improve from here on.!!!


No! Man. I don't have to think about trying to catch a 100 LB. Salmon. It is interesting to watch the Indian Fisherman loading his 50% in the back of his Pick up , in the Hot Sun and driving to the market.

Your way of thinking is just like "Enimant Domain"!

Built at their Whims???? Those people built their Homes many years before a bunch of Liberal Minded People decided to Protect the Salmon.

You think that Your right to catch a Fish where you want to catch a fish is paramount to a person who bought a Piece of Private Property, built a Home rasied his Children to have someone come along a Trunp His
s Rights????

zYes if you PAY
No! if the Govt. has to Pay

Skeet


It's too bad ( and very typical ) that you're insisting on looking at this as a liberal/conservative issue. Somehow in your mind it's "Liberal" ( which means "stupid"correct? ) to give priority to priceless, renewable resources that need to be looked after. That's so short sighted it should be criminal. I'll never understand that.

Not one home will be compromised by removing the damns.

PS...Don't be thinking for a second I'm some Seattle Liberal. I'm deepest darkest Olympic Peninsula thru and thru. Huntin, fishin, shootin guns, drivin jacked up trucks... the whole bit.

bajajudy - 1-22-2006 at 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto


You think that Your right to catch a Fish where you want to catch a fish is paramount to a person who bought a Piece of Private Property, built a Home rasied his Children to have someone come along a Trunp His
s Rights????

y

Skeet


What if those very same children have nothing to eat because no one thought far enough ahead to make sure that those natural resources would be available when they and/or their grandchildren grew up? Some one has to think about the future of this world and, making sure there are salmon to eat, is only a very small part of what should be a master plan to insure that we leave something worth having to our kids.
You can put any title you would like on me, but the short-sightedness of some sectors of the population defies common sense.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-22-2006 at 03:39 PM

Man; True or Dalse???

Did are did not the Elwha Dam problem start with the Sierra club Sponsered "Save the Salmon Group of Liberal Save the Whales including that Liberal Actor from cheers who tried to help promote an Area where no one would be able to catch a Salmon any where near the entrance to the Elwha??????
If my memory is not to dim the effort was made by and promoted by a Demorcat who beat Slade Groton{SP}. If fact it was he who proposed that the Groups wanting to destroy the Elwha Damn should pay for the Removal.

Liberaql or Not Judy I am not putting a label on you, just puting the labels on groups of people who "Shout to High Heaven about Rights"' then think, nothing of taking some ones Property or livehood for the sake of a Fish.
Just as they did and then Failed at Kalmath Falls Oregon,.

I agree with you 100% that we should do as we can to save some of this Planet for our children.
I do not think that it can be done entirely at my Expense!!

Liberals and Conservatives have to realize that the Present P{opulation has to take the necessary action for the future.

Look at what happened to me;-75 years old, worked my butt off for the future and look at it!!
Do you think that my Generation ever thought what the 60's have wrought on this Great Country?????

I would include in that "Master Plan'" some very Tough Penalties for destroying our Streams.

We do not "Take Private Property, destroy private Property for something that happened many years ago when there were Plenty of Salmon.

Skeet/Loreto

A good start on your Master Plan would go to the Owners of the Loreto Bay Villages and suggest to them that they should look to the future and not Polute the Bay of Loreto.