BajaNomad - Baja Cave Painting question

Baja Cave Painting question

John M - 1-19-2006 at 08:34 AM

I recall seeing a photograph of cave painting art of what appeared to be a Spaniard on horseback. Now I cannot locate any such reference.

Any help would be appreciated, as I've looked through several books without success.

John M.

David K - 1-19-2006 at 08:45 AM

John, this petroglyph near Mision San Fernando (called the galleon) has been stated as showing a Spaniard on a ship... That is the only connection between cave art and the Spanish I can think of... Most of the cave art came from long before the Spanish arrived in (Baja) California.

First photo from 2000, second from 2005...

Thanks David..

John M - 1-19-2006 at 08:56 AM

I do also recall some such mention in perhaps the Grand Canyon area, and maybe at El Morro in New Mexico, but I was looking for Baja specifically at this time.

I do think you are correct in that probably all or almost all of the art all preceded the Mission Period.

Just my clouded memory partially at work! Or is it my partially clouded memory? What do you have to say Grandpa Neal Johns?

John

Osprey - 1-19-2006 at 10:03 AM

John M,
The older cave paintings, the murals, have been age-dated at about 7,500 years. The ones etched in "desert varnish", a bacteria, are harder to date but the bacteria needs about 10,000 to varnish the rocks -- the fading etchings (taken back by the same bacteria after the work) give us some idea of the date but science is still trying to find more ways like digital image enhancing.

bajalera - 1-24-2006 at 09:35 AM

Osprey, do you happen to know how they got that date? I read an announcement of it in a newspaper, but the process wasn't mentioned.

Osprey - 1-24-2006 at 12:23 PM

Lera

The study will go on for decades so it is a work in progress. Alan Watchman collected paint/pigment samples from the murals in 2001 and a lab in New Zealand tested over 30 samples/sites by carbon dating the paint. Ages range from 3,000 years to 6,500 years. New studies push the oldest art back to just under 7,800 years. My book, Baja Blues and Blessings is a guess at who the painters were, where they came from, how they got here.

bajalera - 1-24-2006 at 12:59 PM

Thanks, Osprey, I didn't know paint could be carbon-dated. By the time we get back my computer may perhaps be fixed, and I'll get to finish the book.

David K - 1-24-2006 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Lera

The study will go on for decades so it is a work in progress. Alan Watchman collected paint/pigment samples from the murals in 2001 and a lab in New Zealand tested over 30 samples/sites by carbon dating the paint. Ages range from 3,000 years to 6,500 years. New studies push the oldest art back to just under 7,800 years. My book, Baja Blues and Blessings is a guess at who the painters were, where they came from, how they got here.

Osprey, if you wrote a Baja book, won't you please tell us about it, how to order one, etc.???

Use the Baja Nomad Literature forum or the Miscl. classified forum perhaps?

jeans - 1-24-2006 at 06:32 PM

When the Anza expedition came north they camped in a meadow in what is now the community of Anza (1775 mas o menos, there's a plaque).

The land is privately owned, but I went on a field trip there about five years ago. There are Native American metates, petros & pictos all over the hillsides nearby including a very small cave with paintings of men on horseback. I have a picture somewhere.

I'd appreciate the picture

John M - 1-24-2006 at 08:58 PM

If you can find it. Thanks, John

Spanish crosses

John M - 1-27-2006 at 02:05 PM

American Antiquity magazine Vol 31 page 178 describes four crosses found in the Gardner Cave, stating the "four crosses painted in yellow. Isolated from the rest of the paintings and done on a surface freshly revealed by a rock fall, the bright appearance of the crosses, their location, and the use of yellow paint suggest that the corssses are later in time than the other paintings in the site...."

This then is "more recent" looking painting, likely depicting contact with the Church, or Spaniards. Just as David supposes the petrogylph near San Fernando Missoin may be.

Still looking for a painting showing what may be a Spaniard on a horse.

John M.

Neal Johns - 1-28-2006 at 07:47 PM

Come on, George, Where's the book? :?:

David K - 5-25-2017 at 09:34 AM

11 years later...

With the recent TV show on the Lost Ship of the Desert, I thought the petroglyph at San Fernando was very similar.

JohnMcfrog - 5-27-2017 at 07:07 AM

I saw the man on horseback about 40 years ago in the southern Anza-Borrego. These images were taken from page 82 and 83 of "The Forgotten Artist, Indians of Anza-Borrego and Their Rock Art", an excellent book on rock art and the Native Americans who populated our beautiful San Diego desert. It has a nice mix of beautiful images and insight into possible meaning of those images.

IMG_0447.JPG - 103kB

"Lost Ship of the Desert"

John M - 5-27-2017 at 07:38 AM

What was the show concerning?

Good images JohnMcfrog - perhaps my recollection at time was to the Anza Borrego image as that region was, and still is, a favorite place for us to visit.

John M