BajaNomad - Latin American anger toward Americans

Latin American anger toward Americans

Stephanie Jackter - 11-11-2003 at 12:04 AM

ANDRES OPPENHEIMER
THE OPPENHEIMER REPORT
New Latin American poll spells trouble for U.S.

The most troubling news about a new Latin America-wide poll is that the near universal dislike of President Bush in the region is beginning to extend to the United States as a nation, including in key countries such as Mexico.

Until recently, U.S. officials shrugged off Bush's dismal image ratings in the region, saying that it was a natural side effect of the war with Iraq and other sometimes unpopular U.S. antiterrorism measures. But they were quick to add that Bush's low popularity ratings in Latin America did not affect the overall positive image of the United States in the region.

TAINTING AMERICA

But the new poll by the Chilean-based firm Latinobar?metro -- released only days after a separate survey by Zogby International showed that 87 percent of Latin American opinion-makers rated Bush negatively -- indicates that Bush's dismal popularity ratings in the region are beginning to taint America and Americans as a whole.

The percentage of Latin Americans who have a negative image of the United States has more than doubled, from 14 percent in 2000 to 31 percent this year, according to the poll of 18,600 people in 17 Latin American countries conducted by Latinobar?metro ( www.latinobarometroorg). While 60 percent of Latin Americans still have a positive image of the United States, the figure has gone down from 71 percent in 2000, the poll shows.

And if you take a closer look at the figures, you find that in some key countries, such as Mexico, anti-American sentiment is growing even faster. In Mexico, the country President Bush described in September 2001 as ''the most important bilateral relationship'' of the United States in the world, a 58 percent majority has a negative image of the United States, up from 22 percent in 2000.

Only three years ago, a solid 68 percent of Mexicans had a positive view of the United States, the Latinobar?metro figures show.

Sixty-two percent of Argentines, 42 percent of Brazilians and 37 percent of Chileans have a negative view of the United States, up from 28 percent, 18 percent and 20 percent in 2000.

WHAT'S THE REASON?

What is going on? Why are growing numbers of Latin Americans moving away from their previous assertions that they were not anti-American, but only anti-Bush? It's clear that Bush's foreign policy -- such as his preemptive war doctrine and his opposition to the Kyoto global warming agreement -- is clearly making people anxious in the region.

On the more troubling issue of growing anti-Americanism, while it may diminish as Latin Americans hear more Democratic campaign speeches that are more in line with their views, there are several security-related issues that may hurt America's image abroad for years to come.

? First, the flow of foreign students coming to the United States, which has long helped Washington gain influence among the new generations of Latin American elites, has been slowing since Sept. 11, 2001. According to the Institute of International Education's 2003 Open Doors report, the number of Latin Americans in U.S. colleges remained flat at 68,000 this year, after decades of almost constant growth.

? Second, business travel and tourism to the United States are falling as Latin Americans and other foreigners have to undergo personal interviews at U.S. consulates and go through cumbersome post-Sept. 11 bureaucratic procedures to get U.S. entry visas. A total of 12.3 million Latin Americans visited the United States in 2002, down from 14.1 million in 2000, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce's Office of Travel and Tourism Industries.

RESENTMENT

? Third, the thorough security checks at U.S. airports are not always taken as a fact of life by Latin American visitors, many of whom resent the way they are treated upon entering the United States. There is a ''significant increase'' in Latin American traffic to Asia and Europe through Canada, says Tony Knill, Canada's consul in Miami.

The new Latinobar?metro poll reflects more than a generalized anti-Bush feeling in Latin America. The Bush administration and the U.S. Congress should look at the new figures and worry about them.

yosemitejim - 11-11-2003 at 06:56 AM

Stephanie,

I couldn't agree with you more. On an international trip recently, I experienced more hatred toward me than at any time in the last 40 years. This was EVERYWHERE that I visited regardless of the culture.

I was refused service at several establishments simply because I was an American.

It used to be that foreigners would like individual Americans but dislike the government policies. However, the depth of distrust now affects individual travlelers.

Thanks for the post,
Jim

David K - 11-11-2003 at 08:49 AM

In which countries, Jim? France (you would think, yes)? An (American) friend recently spent time in France and was treated well... I spend time in Mexico and have always been treated well...

Let's see those countries get attacked and make needed security changes... and let's see if they give a damn if they become unpopular with Americans... To make us a safer country, why do we care if someone in Bolivia doesn't like it?

Caring what others think

Ski Baja - 11-11-2003 at 10:10 AM

Because there's a whole world out there David. And if you would experience it sometime you would see that there are some really fine human beings populating it. And not all of them are Americans, who seem to think they are better than everyone else, which they are far from being.
Money and a strong military is not related to being human and caring about the planet. And basically all America has to offer is money and a strong military.
Patriotism is OK as long as it doesn't blind you to reality. Which is why the American people are now becoming more unpopular. Before, it was just because we tend to be obnoxious, better than thou Pigs. Now they see us as stupid for putting up with a government that doesn't give a rat's arse about the people.
And as far as the unAmericanized Mexicans that don't live in resort areas like BOLA and Cabo, they see two really bad people on the planet, Osama bin Laden and George Bush. And not necessarily in that order. I would have to agree with them.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2003 at 10:27 AM

J. R. I am better than a lot of people!!!!!!
I am better than a lowly Coyote who deals in Humand Lives for Money!!!
I am better than a Children Moslestor of children!!
I am better than a Hight priced Attorney such as the two Nuts in the Van Damm Case!!!
I am better than the nut that goes to Baja and comes back and lies and lies about it and its people.!!!!
I am a much better person than Bill Clinton who commits acts of Debauchery!!
I am a much better person than a socalled Christain who spew forth Hate for Jews.
I am a much better person than Jerry Farwell or Pat Robertson who spew out flith about Gays and Lesibens!!

Skeet/Loreto

MrBillM - 11-11-2003 at 11:01 AM

Boo Hoo. I am so worried that Latin American countries have a
negative view of the E.U.A. The United States (and Canada) are
the pearls of the American Continent. The countries of Latin
America are one disaster story after another. Instability,
unemployment, corruption and poverty are the rule rather than
the exception.

People, politicians and humans

Ski Baja - 11-11-2003 at 12:30 PM

Reverting back to my original philosophy, there are only three kinds of people. "Politicians", same as thieves and bandidos.(Dishonest). "People" who just live by what they are told by the politicians and live for the day rather than the future. And "Humans" who care about the entire planet and all populations basing nothing on money, posessions.(sp). beliefs or race.
Don't know which of these groups any of you fall into but, this is the way I see it. It's all about how you treat others.

David K - 11-11-2003 at 06:34 PM

J.R., do you think I have only been to Mexico or Canada? My world travels include Fiji, New Zealand, Australia (I lived and went to school there for 6 mos.), Hong Kong, Japan, Egypt, Greece, Italy, Switzerland, West Germany, Luxembourg (visited Patton's grave there), France, and the U.K.

Traveling and living overseas inhanced my appreciation of America and my pride in the shining light of freedom and hope we offer the world... even while the left tries to tear us down and apologize for us... while our flag is burned and our people killed... America is still the choice for the world's people desperate for freedom and opportunity and a better way of life.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2003 at 07:15 PM

J. R. Which Class are you in?
I wonder how you would feel if you were put in a Bamboo Cage and had some of those Whole World crasies poking sticks at you for 24 Housrs.
You seem to be Naieve about the gact that there are mean people out ther that will cut you thoat because you are an American.Skeet/Loreto

Classes

Ski Baja - 11-11-2003 at 08:34 PM

David, it seems as if you are ignoring a lot of issues to believe the way you do. Skeet, I try to remind myself to be in the human class every day although it is very difficult at times. Remember, I was brought up there!
As far as comparing me with ND, before it starts, I have said many times in these conversations, awareness rather than ignoring issues is the way to solve the problems. Otherwise, they just continue to be problems.
Skeet, funny you should mention bamboo! Our house is built with it so I suppose I already do. As far as the getting poked with sticks, Carol and I have been together for over 15 years! :lol:

JESSE - 11-11-2003 at 10:33 PM

For all of those that think that the opinions of others don't matter,consider this:

It is getting less likely that goverments and even citizens of the world will go out of their way to report terrorist activities that affect the U.S. why bother to help them if they don't give a s*** about our opinion.

I personally will help a gringo here in Baja no problem, but i wouldn't lift one finger for anything that has to do with the U.S. goverment.

TMW - 11-12-2003 at 08:35 AM

Too many people try to make complicated issues and situations too simple. The world is not simple, just billions of people with simple minds.

Do I care about what others think about the U.S. Yes I do, but it also depends on many things. What was the wording of the question and followup questions. If they are upset because it's harder to visit the U.S. that's too bad and a meaningless poll.

Jesse I'm sorry you feel as you do about the U.S. government. I think the government does many good things and some bad, just as the state, county and city governments do. You can't please everyone on every issue. You can't or shouldn't run a country on polls, especially other countries. that's what the ballot box is for.

Ballot Boxes

Ski Baja - 11-12-2003 at 09:40 AM

Yep, that last presidential election went pretty smoothly ! I wonder who won.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-12-2003 at 10:42 AM

Jesse: I somewhat feel the same about a Mexicano but I would not help Your Govt.

You know our greast Country is in a change as it is getting"where the State leads the People instead of the People leading the State as called for {Example is the rulings of many of our Judges}
I would help any person in Need in any Country,but I would also shoot a person if my life was in Danger.

For me I think the fact that the Govt overlooks the entrance of Mexicanos into our country and allows them to work with out too much enforcement is a Plus for this Country.
I think if I could work as freely in Baja as here I would go back Manana!
Skeet/Loreto

Allowing them in

Ski Baja - 11-12-2003 at 11:03 AM

Skeet, how much money do you think the government is spending on keeping them out while they are "overlooking" their entrance and working there ?
And don't get me wrong, I think that border is a waste of money. The real threat to America is already in America. It's not trying to sneak in through any borders.

TMW - 11-12-2003 at 07:34 PM

You know who won the last pres. election.
Read the U.S. Constitution and you'll better understand how it was done.
Whether you accept it or not is a different story.

The votes

Ski Baja - 11-12-2003 at 07:44 PM

I must have just imagined some sort of discrepancy in the vote counting. My apologies. :lol:

Family Guy - 11-12-2003 at 08:02 PM

I guess it all depends on who's "reading" the Constitution

David K - 11-13-2003 at 12:19 AM

We are a federal republic (rule of law) not a democracy (rule of mob)... The president of the republic is voted by electoral college. This insures that the entire nation has a say in who leads it, not just voters from high population urban areas. George W. won many many more counties (and states) than Al Gore... many more. Get over it, in another year you have another chance...

Next year

Ski Baja - 11-13-2003 at 11:29 PM

And will "Chad" be in charge again ?

Dave - 11-13-2003 at 11:51 PM

Its been my impression that most Mexicans are too busy trying to get by to worry about the gringos. They would like all this to just go away so they can get back to selling more tacos and chachkis.

Chads, Hanging and otherwise

MrBillM - 11-14-2003 at 07:32 PM

I attempt to never denigrate anyone's personal abilities, but this insipid
nonsense regarding the punch card voting system puts that resolution to
the test. I have voted continuously in California since 1966, the majority
of that time using the punch card system. For the last 10 years I have voted
absentee, which means I receive a punch card with no machine to utilize.
I have never had occasion to have difficulty with that system. Anyone who
has or does is seriously deficient in reasoning abilities. Of course, that
is the voting group that the Democratic Party has traditionally targeted.

yosemitejim - 11-15-2003 at 07:51 AM

There is not doubt that GW Bush "stole" the past presidential election. Even the ultra right wing Fox news has admitted so (see Nexus data base for 9/13/01). I personally feel that this was the greatest travesty in US history. I for one will never feel the same about the integrity of my country.

The US Supreme Court did not cite the Constitution when the 5-4 vote installed GW. It turned the legal concepts of due process and equal opportunity upside down and only allowed the decision for this action. In short, there was no precedent (which was why the 9th Circuit overturned the 3-judge decision regarding the California recall). Justice Bader Ginsberg refused to sign "respectfully" on the decision (gossip has it that she still refuses to talk to Scalia). This was the first such refusal in the history of the US Supreme Court. Read the minority decision by Justice Stevens for some real insight.

Respectfully,
Jim

Dave - 11-15-2003 at 06:15 PM

If the democratic party had done its homework AND gotten out the vote in the other close states it SHOULD have won Florida would have not been an issue.

SURE the fix was in in Florida. Duh...The president's BROTHER was the gov. Think the republicans are the only ones who play for keeps? Remember JKF and Illinois?

Puleeze... keeping 60,000 poor black voters off the roles is what did it? How about the MILLIONS of white middle class democrats who didn't even bother?

I Saw Gore on TV the other night giving the speach of his life. Preaching to the Choir. Why didn't "that guy" show up in 2000?

The ironic thing is the democrats are gonna do it again. Dean? LOL

Bush in a landslide. I'll even give odds.

By the time Ashcroft gets done you guys will have to ask permission to go to the toilet.

Well Dave,

Stephanie Jackter - 11-15-2003 at 08:44 PM

You're probably right about the odds on this one, Dave. I wish you weren't, but the fix is always in for whoever has the most immediate power and fundraising ability and both incumbancy and bankrolls are on Bush's side, even without a little convenient tweeking from his loving brother. So I wouldn't bet against you.

But don't forget, while you're throwing blame around for losing the election, to remember those of us who voted for Nader. At least I'll have somebody worth a hoot to vote for among the Dems this year, which is a damn site better than the last! Thank God fer small favors.

The only things that could get Bush out at this point are:

1- A substantial increase in body bags comeing home from overseas, or

2- Another significant downturn in the stock market.

What's amazing to me is that the loss of a couple of million jobs and trillions of dollars of debt don't mean much to people's perceptions. It's only when those hard working (yeah, right), investors start losing their money that we sit up and take notice of the big shaft at all anymore. - Stephanie

Body bags

Ski Baja - 11-15-2003 at 09:14 PM

Don't you think that those "Body Bags" deserve ay least as much opinion as the $$ aspect ? Spoken like a true american!

Feel free to define for me what a good citizen is, J.R.

Stephanie Jackter - 11-15-2003 at 10:06 PM

Luckily, as long as I know I am a good American, I don't have to count on your opinion of me for self esteem.

I was gonna write you back that I thought the body bags should trump the economic situation, then I thought a little more about the real casualties of this administration.

The bottom line is that the economic situation of 2 million people out of jobs makes for a lot more body bags. They just don't get shown on TV. There are children being orphaned every day in this country because their parents can't get adequate medical attention because they live in poverty, so don't kid yourself. It's a very important issue.

And it certainly doesn't make me any less American than anyone else to speak about it. Have a good night. - Stephanie

American

Ski Baja - 11-15-2003 at 10:27 PM

I didn't say "less american" I said "true american" . $$$
We do apparently agree on the fact there is "room for improvement" with the government. What could be stopped immediately is the body bag part. Those are our relatives and friends.
The rest of the problems can be solved by voting. :lol:

Dave - 11-15-2003 at 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephanie Jackter
You're probably right about the odds on this one, Dave. I wish you weren't, but the fix is always in for whoever has the most immediate power and fundraising ability and both incumbancy and bankrolls are on Bush's side, even without a little convenient tweeking from his loving brother. So I wouldn't bet against you.

But don't forget, while you're throwing blame around for losing the election, to remember those of us who voted for Nader. At least I'll have somebody worth a hoot to vote for among the Dems this year, which is a damn site better than the last! Thank God fer small favors.

The only things that could get Bush out at this point are:

1- A substantial increase in body bags comeing home from overseas, or

2- Another significant downturn in the stock market.

What's amazing to me is that the loss of a couple of million jobs and trillions of dollars of debt don't mean much to people's perceptions. It's only when those hard working (yeah, right), investors start losing their money that we sit up and take notice of the big shaft at all anymore. - Stephanie

What everyone needs to think about is the possibility of a republican super majority in the senate. The magic number is nine.

Yep. Scaaaaaaarrrreeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyy.

Stephanie Jackter - 11-15-2003 at 11:58 PM

That's when I gotta go shoot myself and just get it over with. I'm goin' to bed now. Wish me sweet dreams, Dave, instead of that kind of nightmare. - Stephanie

Dave - 11-16-2003 at 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ski Baja
The rest of the problems can be solved by voting. :lol:

People don't, then complain about the result. Stew in it.

Bajabus - 11-16-2003 at 09:15 AM

I always vote but my brothers rarely do so this year I am getting their absentee ballots and voting for them. Ye ha I'm gonna get 3 votes against bush.

David K - 11-16-2003 at 02:26 PM

Yah, I hear that Dems don't believe in the one person, one vote idea... :lol:

Bajabus - 11-16-2003 at 02:57 PM

after the fraud of Florida it's get even time. Please don't make me puke by talking about fair.