BajaNomad

solar help in S.F.

eetdrt88 - 4-12-2006 at 03:25 PM

...can anybody down there reccomend a place or person in san felipe who is knowledgeable about solar and can help me upgrade my current operation to get more power...any help would be much appreciated;);)

wornout - 4-12-2006 at 04:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by eetdrt88
...can anybody down there reccomend a place or person in san felipe who is knowledgeable about solar and can help me upgrade my current operation to get more power...any help would be much appreciated;);)


Jim Smith, in El Dorado, or Solar Express, in town, are about the only two games (licensed ) in town.

However, not being one to hold back advise, what do you mean by upgrade?

Off the top of my head, I would suggest investing in a tracker (if you have enough panels and batteries at this time). It will boost your charging about 30%. Of course there are other things depending on your setup and you budget.

wornout...

eetdrt88 - 4-12-2006 at 05:01 PM

right now I have one small panel about 4'x3' and one small battery that runs the lights on my trailer...what I would like is enough power to run some appliances like a coffee maker and small refrig....just wondering how many more panels and batteries I will need to get that much power.....btw that jury duty bit is a hoot:lol::lol:

[Edited on 4-13-2006 by eetdrt88]

bajalou - 4-12-2006 at 05:09 PM

Coffee makers and frig take LOTS of elect power. Major change to run them.

Lou...

eetdrt88 - 4-12-2006 at 05:16 PM

when you say major,what are you talking in $$$??

Pompano - 4-12-2006 at 06:09 PM

eetdrt88..realistically, you will spend around $2500 to solar-run a coffeemaker and a small electric fridge with solar power...both of these take considerable amounts of power -- panels, inverter/controler, wiring, etc. Solar power is not cheap, but it is satisfying.

Visit this site for lots of info and a better answer to your power question:

http://www.wind-sun.com/smf/index.php

Do not let the initial cost discourage you....once it's over you are home free.

Tracker Economics

MrBillM - 4-12-2006 at 06:21 PM

Keep in mind when considering a tracker vs. additional panels, the cost of a tracker is roughly equivalent to the cost of additional panels to achieve the same increase in charge capacity. Trackers have moving parts, motors, etc. My next door neighbor has had a tracker for a few years and there is the occasional problem in addition to the required maintenance. To me, the deciding factor is how much South Facing roof space you have available. In my case, I have far more than I would ever need for panels.

rts551 - 4-12-2006 at 07:39 PM

Coffee maker!!!!! You need lots of batteries and the required inverter for high energy appliances (coffee maker, hair dryer and other heat element items). Plus You can have all the panels in the world and it won't help you in the morning when the sun is not up deyond the horizon. (many a day I have lost batteries until 8-9 in the morning because my wife insisted on the drip coffee maker) - but I also remember she is always right.

jerry - 4-12-2006 at 07:52 PM

id get a gas refer and a 3 kw gen set at big lots for $288 that will take care of your problem cheep compared to solar then add the solar to take care of the little things
jerry

eetdrt88 - 4-12-2006 at 09:30 PM

actually I have a propane rerfrig. in there but it isnt working...someone said something about turning it upside down,anybody ever had luck with that method???

bajalou - 4-12-2006 at 09:51 PM

There are a couple places in town that repair propane fridges. Puerta RV is one. I use a RV type that is old enough it doesn't have a elect control panel. I think you're still only part time at this time so I don't think the large solar array, battiries etc would be the way I would go. I'd probably upgrade panels, battieries so I could run a 1500W inverter for TV etc. (I live in a solar area) A couple of golf cart batteries and a couple panels if it's generaly weekend use. Coffee on the old cook stove works pretty good also.

I know you can sometimes reserect propane friges by lying them down and turning them but don't remember which side/order to do it.

Roberto - 4-13-2006 at 07:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Keep in mind when considering a tracker vs. additional panels, the cost of a tracker is roughly equivalent to the cost of additional panels to achieve the same increase in charge capacity. Trackers have moving parts, motors, etc. My next door neighbor has had a tracker for a few years and there is the occasional problem in addition to the required maintenance. To me, the deciding factor is how much South Facing roof space you have available. In my case, I have far more than I would ever need for panels.


Have you seen the trackers made by Zomeworks? No moving parts at all, no motors, no energy use. They work by having an oil-reservoir that heats and cools slightly with the sun's movement, and, due to the resulting change in density of the fluid, changes the balance of the mount, tracking the sun from side-to-side. Nothing to fail there!

[Edited on 4-13-2006 by Roberto]

Zoomworks and other trackers....Wattsun's - Real Goods, etc ..

Pompano - 4-13-2006 at 07:54 AM

Zoomworks is an elegant, minimally mechanical system.
I was told by another solar home-owner they cost about $1300 per tracker for a 12 volt system. That figure is not verified. There are some trade-offs though - it needs the warmth of the sun to make it work.

What that means is two things:
1) it "goes to sleep" at the western extreme of it's track each night and has to warm sufficiently in the morning to toggle east (this can take some time and
costs you some amount of morning sun)

2) it is less efficient in cold weather or climates (though Zoomworks makes a set of small flanges you can mount to increase bottle heating).

Wattsun's tracker is electro-mechanical. It uses drive screw motors, similar to satellite TV dishes) to move the array. A sensor is mounted on the top of the array that compares the sun illumination on either side of it. It moves the rack until the sun is shining equally on both sides of the sensor (they use a prism to accomplish this). This system also incorporates a small ni-cad battery that is used to swing the rack back east at the end of the day.

There are three trade-offs here;
1) the thing is an electrical devise and prone to lightning strike damage (though they have made
improvements here in the last few years)

2) it uses some of your array output to power itself and

3) it costs more.

One last note: bird droppings on the sensor prism can really screw up it's tracking.

The Wattsun product would be better in a colder climate because it will find the morning sun faster. Either way you'll see highest gain in the summer and lowest in the winter. This is simply because the sun is up longer in the summer.


There is another company out there who makes an electro-mechanical tracker. Call Real Goods in Hopeland CA and they'll be able to tell you the company name. This rack has two refinements over the Wattsun;

1) it uses pipe to mount the array so some of the material is available locally and this will save on shipping.

2) the panels are off-set, rather than being a flatplane, and this lets it shed wind between the panels. Good to have in severe storm areas. They cost about the same as a Wattsun.

Hope this helps.




[Edited on 4-13-2006 by Pompano]

jerry - 4-13-2006 at 08:06 AM

i have had several gas refers and when they quite i take them out tip them upside down in a pickup and head down a washboard road the let them sit upside down for a day install and again let them sit upside down for a day and they worked fine one for about 4 yrs others for a shorter time this only works if the ammonia hasnt leaked out if it has leaked its junk some tim es you can look in the back of the refer insulation if you see yellow its shot and i know of no place in baja that can recharge the ammonioa
good luck

jerry - 4-13-2006 at 08:07 AM

allway make sure your refer is as level as posable

Pompano - 4-13-2006 at 08:43 AM

There used to be a gas fridge 'repairman' named Victor something?.. up around kilometer 72 on the toll road between Ensenada and Rosarito. He told me that he could recharge with ammonia. I have not contacted him for many years now. I seem to recall that part of his business name was 'Ursala'? Maybe somebody will recall this fellow and location. I cannot vouch for his expertise or experience.

I also have burped my share of gas fridges over the years...some came back, others didn't. Servels, Sibirs, Crystal Cold, Consul, Dometic, Norcold...I have had a few. My current Crystal Cold are great...going on 7 years old now. Got those from Fletcher Dunne at appliancewarehouse.com Very good service and warranty.

For an electric fridge powered by solar, I use a smaller 10cft Whirlpool that I bought in La Paz. It is fairly efficient and uses little power to keep things cool. When in normal mode, it drawsa about 3-4 amps on my Trace 4500 inverter meters gauge. Also Mabe makes another low-energy electric fridge. Gas models are of course ideal. Sunfrost and Sol make solar fridges, but have some drawbacks and need lots of panels to operate. Then when they go bad, it usually means a trip back to the states and a huge repair bill.



[Edited on 4-13-2006 by Pompano]

wornout - 4-13-2006 at 08:48 AM

Couple of things. First off, get a Coleman Camping Coffee Pot at Walmart. It is just like a Mr Coffee but works on the gas stove.

I live in a solar area just down from Bajalou and ran an electric Mr Coffee for years. What a dumb idea that is on solar because you hit your batteries, with a BIG draw at their weakest time, first thing in the morning.

I agree on keeping a propane fridge and forget electric. I have a 12v Sunfrost which I bought in 1998, it works great but you have to allocate two 100w panels and two L16 batteries for it (over 300 amps storage). It is well worth it as it is 16cu ft. In 1998 I bought a 5 cu ft electric freezer at Sears, and there I go again, draining my batteries all day and night (I have 8 100w panels and 8 L16's. Selling that freezer was the 2nd best day of my live, retiring early was the best.

Years ago I had a propane freezer refilled with ammonia at 'Cool Fun' in Southern California, near Pomona. I understand there is a place in Ensenada that does this too but don't know where. It cost $500 but I wanted it because it did require 12v for the safety valve like all the ones built in the 90's and on do.

Hope that helps....wornout

meme - 4-13-2006 at 09:26 AM

We have the Sun Frost frig now too & love it!Just recently bought it from folks getting electric down south. Spendy but good to have! We also run an LG electric frig,it uses little electric and fits perfect in my kitchen! But then Jim just keeps adding panels & batteries to accomodate all our plug ins! LOl! I do have electric Cusinart coffee pot that brews it into an insulated carafe (like a thermos) so is only on using electric a few short mins. each morning. Love it, so guess I will always have one!
BTW---- The guy Victor in Ensenda is a crook! Cheated several people here out of hundreds of $$ including us!

solar is great way to go...especially when off-grid!

Pompano - 4-13-2006 at 09:49 AM

Have been off-the-grid in Baja since 1972 and totally solar-powered home since 1982. Used ARCO panels originally and now 16-120 watt Photowatt panels..24volt system with 4500w Trace inverter and 16 T-105 Trojan batteries.
3-15cft gas fridge/freezers, 1-10cft electric fridge/freezer, gas hot water, electric clothes washer, microwave, tvs, pcs, fans, many lights, air conditioning, etc....making about 160 amp-hours daily.

We make gas-stovetop coffee, limited microwaving, and judicious use of yard lights at night. You learn to conserve and buy low power bulbs..very reasonable at Home Depot. Many other ways to conserve energy...like putting all tvs, etc. on switches to avoid 'ghost' drains at night. It all adds up rather quickly.

Neighbors have a solar fridge and liked it a lot ..until it quit. Borrowed them the Whirlpool electric unit until they could make repairs to the Sunfrost or Sol..can't remember which brand. Appears to working fine again.

I remember other people saying that this Victor by Ensenada was not a very savory character. No doubt he is not in business anymore.

Unfortunately I know of no current authorized solar techincians in our area. There will be one or two soon though, I expect.

[Edited on 4-13-2006 by Pompano]

Pompano - 4-13-2006 at 10:20 AM

eetdrt88...

I have bought solar products from these people. Good prices and product. I will be using them to install solar panels and systems on a new 5th Wheel RV. Reasonable in today's high solar markets.

http://www.discoverpower.com/


Other places I have bought solar and had installations done...Escondido, Ca. at Horizon Solar.

http://www.horizonsolar.com/

These folks did my first solar powered 5th Wheel and the system worked flawlessly for the 3 three years we owned the camper. The system greatly increased the usability of the camper and also added to our resale price. Ended up selling the unit for exactly the initial cost.

http://www.horizonsolar.com/

[Edited on 4-13-2006 by Pompano]

Roberto - 4-13-2006 at 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano
Zoomworks is an elegant, minimally mechanical system.
I was told by another solar home-owner they cost about $1300 per tracker for a 12 volt system. That figure is not verified. There are some trade-offs though - it needs the warmth of the sun to make it work.

What that means is two things:
1) it "goes to sleep" at the western extreme of it's track each night and has to warm sufficiently in the morning to toggle east (this can take some time and
costs you some amount of morning sun)

2) it is less efficient in cold weather or climates (though Zoomworks makes a set of small flanges you can mount to increase bottle heating).


Actually, the cost of a Zomeworks system is strictly tied to the number of panels that you want to mount - voltage has nothing to do with it. It's important that the panels be mounted and balanced correctly or the system will not track as intended, or at all, in the worst cases.

For an example, a system with 2 Kyocera 120W (KC-120) panels will cost about $550 - a system with 12 of the same panels will cost about $1950.

I agree about the cold weather comment, but in warmer climes (i.e. San Felipe) the system works great, and the small morning delay you refer to is barely measurable.

The bottom line, to me is this: a small system with a fairly small number of panels is best improved by adding panels. But, after a certain point, the number of panels becomes a cost issue on it's own, with space, wiring and other factors coming into play. That is when trackers start to make real sense. An efficiency gain of 30% is not unrealistic.

Pompano - 4-13-2006 at 10:47 AM

Roberto...good info. But I was not saying that the Zoomworks tracker must be used on only 12 volt panels...that just happened to be my neighbors system. For instance, mine is 24. I was referring to the panels themselves. The tracker usaully will handle up 2-4-6-8 panels depending on model before weight becomes an issue.

I have my house panels mounted south at about a 30 degree angle. I find this to be very efficient. Great industry. The panels have come a long ways since Univ. of Delaware built the first thin-film solar cells exceeding 10% efficiency using copper sulfide/cadmium sulfide.

Pescador - 4-13-2006 at 11:31 AM

The gas fridge has ammonia in the cooling section which can and does crystallize. Normally this happens over time and happens more quickly if the unit is run out of level. Sometimes bouncing or turning upside down can dislodge the crystals for a period of time. Occasionaly there have been times when the units run for an extended period.
I have not seen very good results from recharging the ammonia compound and have found you are usually ahead to just get a new unit.
When you indicate that it does not work, I assume that you have checked the burner unit, cleaned the orfice in alcohol, checked propane pressure. The easiest way with a three way or two way system, is to plug the unit to 110 volt and if the unit cools properly, then you know you have some type of propane problem.

wornout - 4-13-2006 at 04:55 PM

Speaking of trackers, it may be manual but the only cost was the pole and the frame which I had made locally. The frame was $100 and the pole was $40 (for a 6"gluelam wood post). The satelite dish mover I received free. There are a lot of them out there.

Roberto - 4-13-2006 at 07:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wornout
Speaking of trackers, it may be manual but the only cost was the pole and the frame which I had made locally. The frame was $100 and the pole was $40 (for a 6"gluelam wood post). The satelite dish mover I received free. There are a lot of them out there.


Can you explain how this works? Specifically, what does the satellite mover do?

Tracker Economics Redux

MrBillM - 4-13-2006 at 07:51 PM

Assuming (6) KC120 Panels on a Tracker-mounted array will
provide the "outside" figure of a 30 percent increase in efficiency, that would be an additional 216 watts. A short while ago, the KC120s (now superseded) were selling for $550.00 each = $1100 for an additional 240 watts. The prices I have seen for trackers in the 6 panel array were in the $1200-$1500 range.

As I said earlier, a virtual tradeoff in price. I would not choose a tracker over a fixed panel array as long as there was available roof space. Regardless of the "degree" of tracker maintenance experienced, it could not duplicate the "Zero" maintenance of a fixed array.

IF you were interested in maximizing the efficiency of a fixed array, you could design your mounting brackets to allow periodic adjustment of the array angle. The compromise formula of fixed array alignment is, I believe, usually Latitude plus 15 degrees (approx 45 degrees at San Felipe) so an adjustment range (at San Felipe) of 6.5 degrees to 58.5 degrees would provide optimum reflection at midday. Additionally, the Outback line of Solar controllers provice an increase of efficiency (to any array) of "up to" the same amount provided by a tracker.

Roberto - 4-13-2006 at 07:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
As I said earlier, a virtual tradeoff in price. I would not choose a tracker over a fixed panel array as long as there was available roof space.


Exactly ... and pretty much what I stated, right? For the record, there's no such thing as zero maintenance, but the Zomeworks system is as close as a statically mounted system.

Si Senor

MrBillM - 4-13-2006 at 08:07 PM

OK, we're in agreement, more or less. I wasn't trying to start an argument, but simply clarify the costs involved.

As far as Zero Maintenance, I am referring to the normal atmospheric effects on the given arrays. ANY Device with moving parts will have a higher statistical maintenance figure than one with NO moving parts. That difference may be insignificant in a practical sense taking into account the lifetime of the device, BUT it will exist.

My current fixed Array has been in place for nearly Five Years and there have been NO maintenance issues. For any to appear, it would have to come as a result of something like Metal Fatigue, which would be a constant with like materials IF we disregard the design structure of a tracker which would "possibly" be higher, though again, perhaps insignificant in the practical sense.

I do not, of course, consider cleaning in the formula since that is another constant for any array choice.

It's really a matter of choice due to necessity or esthetics. The costs are equivalent.

We can both be correct.

In Addition

MrBillM - 4-13-2006 at 08:58 PM

I would put in my plug for the Sun Frost Refrigerator. I avoided the purchase for years, but finally bought a 16 cu ft 12/24 vdc model in 2001. I placed it in operation in Feb 2002 and it has run continuously year round except for defrost maintenance, including the Dead of Summer. It has separate compressors for the Freezer and Refrigerator and consumes 7 amps @ 12 Volt when both compressors are running. A good rule of thumb for Solar necessity is 200+ watts of Solar Panel for the Sun Frost itself. I have the bottom box set at 38 degrees and the freezer at 08 degrees. It works perfectly.

..almost zero..

Pompano - 4-14-2006 at 04:36 AM

16 fixed solar panels..almost too much power...no problems in 23 years, a few hurricanes, and mucho chubascos.

MAINTENANCE RECORD: Found myself on the roof once about 15 years ago and glanced over to see if the panels needed a wash...decided not to get involved in a steady job. It will rain sooner or later.


I came to fish.