BajaNomad

Old Road Remembered

Sharksbaja - 4-14-2006 at 11:52 PM

I always have flash-backs when I drive the highway now known as Hwy 1.
Sometimes I swear I can look over at the "old road" where it is visible and actually remember being on that particular stretch of the route.
Not only that but I sometimes just because of some nostalgic whim, I'll pull off and venture a ways on the "old road". It is so cool that it still exists. I remember when CA had dirt tracks too!
Some of the more memorable parts of the the trip still tingle the spine when I remember how tough those places were to navigate.
Catavina, the grade souith of Mulege, Bahia de Concepcion and places in between still hold my thoughts today as I race thru and conjure up the adrenaline that we felt so many years ago.

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' HERE, MAN!

You can still do it!

LOOK over there see that little crumbly narrow pair of paths? Scoot on over there and see where it goes. You might be SO surprised! Really , check out the "old road" if you can. It holds plenty from the past.

I'd be curious to know if someone has followed and traversed the passable route as it is today and documented it?

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by Sharksbaja]

bajalera - 4-15-2006 at 10:03 AM

Ah, Sharks, you've stirred up fond memories--looking at that narrow slash in the vegetation trailing off into the distance in the morning, and knowing you'd get about as far as you could see at the end of the day. If everything went well, that is.

We usually take the Old Road through the granite-boulder area that has the Virgin's shrine where the old man lived, and have made side trips to find Turquesa Grade and several other old landmarks.

If the Mexican government had asked for my advice, it would have put Highway One somewhere else, kept the Old Road as a toll road, furnished gas refrigerators to ranchers who wanted to stay put and sell cold drinks, and presented Conquistador de la Carretera plaques to people who made it to La Paz.

I'd have paid to still be able to drive on it. And like you, I wonder if anybody has tried to piece the viable sections together.

Where is that old Baja road, you ask?

David K - 4-15-2006 at 10:21 AM

From a posted reply to Surfer Jim in Dec. 2004:

Where is that old Baja road, you ask?

I am refering to the pre-December, 1973 Baja main road. Everything changed after December 1973 as far as Baja travel and number of visitors.

I was just a kid when my folks and I drove to the tip in 1966 in our Jeep Wagoneer. But, I was already infected with Baja Fever and my favorite book was Gerhard & Guilick's LOWER CALIFORNIA GUIDEBOOK (The Baja Bible). We went to Gonzaga the year before and to L.A. Bay the following year. The next trip down Baja (to Loreto) was in July, 1973. The highway was under construction and I took many notes and milages as to its location compared with the old road. That July, pavement ended near Mision San Fernando (near El Progreso) and didn't start again until near Punta Prieta (in sections) with solid pavement starting about Villa Jesus Maria. We were on the old road from Agua Dulce (10 miles beyond San Agustin) to almost Laguna Chapala.

The old road locator:

Just past where the highway crosses Arroyo El Rosario is where the old road left the valley using a side canyon, that the new road stays above, just west.

The old road crosses the new and parallels it to the south, Rancho Aguajito and the turquoise mines are along it.

El Progreso was moved north a half mile to the highway from the old road.

The road left to Rancho Penjamo is along the old road, as is Aguila and Guayaquil.

The abandoned Pemex and trailer park 'San Agustin' is a half mile south of the original San Agustin, on the old road, as is Cafe Sonora a couple miles ahead.

Agua Dulce is off the old road, a couple miles to the left of Km. 157. The old road stays about 1-2 miles east/left of the highway in the La Virgen boulder area. The old road rejoins the highway just before the palapa by the rock art cave, 2 miles before Catavina.

The highway is next to the old road past San Martin and over to the first little dry lake. At the Pedregroso boulder mountain, the old road went around the west side, whereas the new highway goes around the east side.

At the first sight of the Laguna Chapala valley, the old road continued straight towards the old ranch site, along a little hill just north of the dry lake bed. This section before the ranch was perhaps the worst in all of the Baja road... deep, fine powder Baja dust that would cover your vehicle completely. You would drive blind after fixing onto the trees by Rancho Chapala and hoping for the best! Then, after the ranch, you got to open it up and drive 60 mph on the dry lake to blow a lot of that dust off. That best of the old road only lasted a couple miles, however. That Chapala dust would stay with the Jeep for many car washes over the following years!

The new highway stays to the right of the dust field, along the hill, and to the right (west) of the dry lake. Rancho Chapala moved to the highway and was renamed Nuevo Chapala. The new Chapala to Puerto Calamajue, then on to Gonzaga and San Felipe road was built from from about 1982-87. Coco started his corner after that first section was built.

Both old and new roads come together where you leave the Chapala valley and see that beautiful view of the desert and mountains to the south.

Beyond El Crucero (where the road turns from southeast to south at the base of a hill) both roads are together. In a few miles the old road goes off to the right (west) of the new and parallels it to Punta Prieta.

At Rosarito, the new highway swings west down the arroyo a couple miles then turns south to Guerrero Negro. The old main road went straight south from Rosarito and eventually went to the center of the peninsula at El Arco. Some truckers running supplies to the new town of Guerrero Negro went along the 'coast route', then took desert trails on to San Ignacio. The new highway does the same, passing near Guerrero Negro then swinging to the southeast for San Ignacio. The old road coming south from El Arco joins the new near Vizcaino (a new town since the highway was built).

Vizcaino to San Ignacio finds both routes near each other. San Ignacio to Mulege, the same.

Along Bahia Concepcion, the old road can be seen in the cliff, right above the water in many places. This was built and maintained by the prisioners of the old territorial prison in Mulege (closed after the highway was built ending the isolation).

Just south of Bahia Concepcion, the old main road went inland via Comondu where today's highway goes south through Loreto. Both rejoin at Insurgentes. Travelers to Loreto could get to La Paz by driving to San Javier and then on to Santo Domingo on the main road. The road south of Loreto ended at Ligui.

Pavement in '66 began about 100 miles north of La Paz and ended again, about 10 miles south of La Paz. They were building the new road and we drove on it (unpaved) until past San Bartolo. It was just a two track jeep trail from there to Cabo San Lucas! The new highway stays to the east of Santiago and Miraflores, where the old road naturally went right through these pretty villages...

I hope some of you find this a bit interesting... thank you for allowing me to share from my childhood memories and later observations!

David K - 4-15-2006 at 10:29 AM

Here is the old main transpeninsular road, looking south, just south of Agua Dulce (between San Agustin and Catavi?a). The new highway is 1.4 miles west (between Kms. 160-161)... My truck is on that access road where it meets the old main road.


Sharksbaja - 4-15-2006 at 01:27 PM

Thank David. What, no map!!???

BOLABOUND - 4-15-2006 at 01:41 PM

Cool David,

Glad someone knows the real stuff.....

surfer jim - 4-15-2006 at 05:50 PM

I drove the old ROUTE 66 back in the day from Chicago to L.A.....to come to Cali to surf......but missed the origional BAJA road by a few years...surfing at that time in the Rosarito area...K39, K55, RAUL'S, CUATRO CASAS, K181...no need to go further south then as it was the " edge of the known world" as far as we knew.....

vacaenbaja - 4-16-2006 at 12:33 PM

For those of you who long for a little flavor of the old road circa 1920 try this read " Long walk to Mulege" by Hale I believe. Talks of alot of the old
landmarks and name places that now exisit and no longer exist.
I have always wondered if David K could with all his knowledge and resources map out the route that the two adventures took on todays
Baja Almanac Map (Baja Norte, Baja Sur ) .

Neal Johns - 4-16-2006 at 03:24 PM

Million Dollar Wife! Why? See diary below:

Baja Road In 1967 - Christmas Vacation - Tijuana to La Paz
by Marian Johns

We're going to Baja! Never mind that the road isn't paved yet, gas is in 55 gallon drums, and it?s RAINING.

Cast of CHARACTERS:

Diarist: Marian Johns

Husband: Don Cox

Mama: Marian's mother

Dogs: Slipper, Suzy & Tanya

Vehicles: Jeep FC170 (forward cab)

Friends: Tricia and Tom Record with daughter, Sara, and Jack Baldwin (Land Rover)

12-16-67 - Sat. - Left LA about 9:30 a.m.. Drove to San Diego but phoned the Records first to say we'd go directly to border! Got to border about 11:30 and spent over an hour finding out that we can't get car permits here - can't get Jack's tourist card here- and no getting insurance for our Jeep and his Land Rover. Drove to Ensenada, then to Maneadero where Jack got his tourist card. Drove till about 4:30 and camped under a grove of beautiful oaks. It rained during the night - very cold. Jack got up and then someone looked at the time - 2:00 a.m. We went ahead with breakfast and got going.

12-17-67 - Sun. - Pavement ended and road is muddy. About noon we came across a Corvair stuck in the mud. Pulled him out after about an hour of messing around. He was going to La Paz but turned around. Continued on and ate lunch in some taller shrubs. Road pretty bad with mud, etc. Saw several large trucks stuck - made a detour around them. Got into some strange territory with many detours around places where the road washed out. Then thru some canyons and finally down a narrow spot and into the canyon to El Rosario - Camped along road before we got into town.

12-18-67 - Mon. - Jeep (ours) wouldn't start in the a.m. Starter seemed to be stuck and spring of gas pedal is gone. Fixed pedal and Jack pushed us out of spot onto road - broke off his lock and strap of gas can so we put can in back of our Jeep. Got gas and water at El Rosario where a woman spoke excellent English (Ed. note: Mama Espinoza is still there, age 100 in 2006). 2 red Jeeps passed us. We passed them later when they were stopped fixing 3 flat tires - said they ran over some cactus. About 4:00 p.m., we left the main road - after much discussing and headed for a spot near the coast where ammonites have been found. Drove till dark and camped off the road - rain again. We put the doors of the tents together so the flaps would make a roof.

12-19-67 - Tues. - Up early in the dark and rain and cold. Off at 7:00 Am. Didn't get too far when Tom Record decided not to go with us because of cactus in the road so we went on - passed Santa Catarina -very bad road which isn't used much. We finally came to one of 3 bridges near the ammonite site which was supposed to be after the second bridge. Mama's hand drawn map said "hill" instead of "mile" it turned out. We were looking for buildings and got to the third bridge (too far). So back to the 2nd bridge, reread the map, discovered the mistake and saw a "hill?. Drove over to it and sure enough ammonites all over the place. Looked around and took some broken pieces as there were no whole ones visible. It started to rain which didn't help the road any. In fact it became a river in many places. Finally got back to Records at 1:00 p.m., then we all headed back to the main road. A few hundred yards from the main road we got stuck in the mud and behind us a couple hundred feet, Jack got stuck. Records got stuck trying to pull us out. Got the Records out, then went back to help Jack. Worked on his car until dark. Mama went to the houses at the main road and got them to come with a truck which got stuck on its way to us. Decided to quit for the night and do it in the a.m. It finally stopped raining and we pitched the tents, ate a cold stew dinner and went to bed.

12-20-67 - Wed. - Up about 6:30, got Jack's LR out fairly soon and then worked on the Jeep. The fellow with the stuck truck came and got that out and then came over and helped us get the Jeep out - ate breakfast. Don got the Jeep stuck a few feet away from the hole he'd just been in. Got him out of that and onto a hard spot. Finally got going about 11:00 a.m., filled up with gas at San Agustin and then off - made 50 miles when Jack got stuck in mud. Records drove off on side of road and pulled him out up to the place they were. Then they got stuck and he got stuck again! So Don got the Jeep and drove on to hard ground and, with chains put together and Jeep on boards, we pulled them both out. A Jeep Wagoneer passed us. (Earlier we had to ford a large steam and at a smaller one tried to pull out a large truck which had been stuck 8 days. The owner had emptied his truck of its cargo because rains caused the streams to rise higher than the truck bed. We couldn't budge him, so went on.) We went on only a little way after un- stucking everybody and camped.

12-21-67 - Thurs. - Up at 5:00 a.m. and off at 7:00. Passed camped Wagoneer - Road very bad - muddy grades. Passed one truck with axle torn out. Came to Laguna Seca which is wet now - one stuck truck and one flat on the Land Rover. Changed that and drove on only to find a stuck car. Two U.S. fellows were trying to pull them out with their Dodge panel wagon but couldn't. So we found a way around and Jack pulled the car up to the top of a dry hill - Then we left even though there was another car (unstuck) to get thru. Got to Laguna Chapala - got gas and drove on. Stopped shortly though as it was lunch time. Don discovered that we had a broken spring. Could only tighten down U bolts. Road is becoming better and really nice where the Gulf Coast comes in. Drove on a few miles past that and camped. Wind is atrocious. The pole in Records tent wouldn't have lasted, so they decided to fill tent with stuff from their Jeep, let the tent down and sleep in their Jeep. Mama decided to sleep in the Land Rover. Jack decided to sleep in our tent (let down) and Don and I slept in the bed of our Jeep. It was warm, but the rattling tarp over us kept me awake several hours.

12-22-67 - Fri. - Got up and wind is still as bad so decided to go on without breakfast. Drove on to Punta Prieta - road is still pretty muddy. Got gas at Punta Prieta. Jack's car isn't charging - found out that a brush was stuck. Ate a lunch of sandwiches and drove on, but not far, as the brake drum broke from the hub on our Jeep - Can't go any further. Don and Jack decided to drive back to Laguna Chapala to have it welded. This was all decided after they drove down the road a ways to a place where there was supposed to be a welder, but there wasn't one that would work. They found out that they could get welding rods in Punta Prieta in case they didn't have them in Laguna Chapala. Found out our sleeping bags (Don's and mine) were wet. Had to dry them out before night. Got them mostly dry - good enough to sleep in. Put up tent since there is no wind tonight.


12-23-67 - Sat. - Waited for Jack and Don to get back. I read Don's book Sea of Cortez. Mama re-did her hair. They finally got back round 5:00 p.m., then they had to pound off some of the welds because it wouldn't fit. We decided to eat an early dinner before we left so we wouldn't have to stop again. Got everything ready and drove on. Only got about two or three miles further when the wheel broke again. Limped on a few hundred feet to get out of the mud and stopped for the night. How depressing!!! Mama fell into the little wash by camp but didn't hurt herself. It drizzled all night.

12-24-67-Sun. - Cold, wet morning. Don decided to try and make a thing to hold the wheel together. Cooked breakfast in the tent while they worked on the wheel. Then a caravan of trucks came by. Told them of our plight and they offered for $80 (finally $70) to take off one of their little pickups which was riding piggy back and put ours on and take it to La Paz - We agreed on the condition that that if we found another wheel on the way we could get off. They shoveled out the wash so they could drive the big truck up and unload their pick-up and load ours. All went well but the bank gave way under the Jeep's left front wheel. Luckily the 3 others were already on the truck so they jacked it up high enough to get a board under that wheel. Finally got it on with a lot of elbow grease - shoving it into place. After they tied it down, we left - slowly. We stopped for lunch while they drove on. Caught up with them where 2 big trucks were stuck. They had a big unstuck one so we went on. We drove on ahead because they were going so slowly. Waited in a little town (Rosarito) where we got gas and Mama gave Xmas candy to kids. We drove on ahead again in the dark since these men drive until 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. Stopped in next town for dinner while the trucks all caught up. After we ate, Don stuffed the pinata he bought in Tijuana for Sara. Then we put it on a pole which one of the drivers held sitting high up on our Jeep. The children there came out and had their try at breaking the pinata. Finally got the driver of the truck with our truck to try and he broke it. All the kids got plenty of candy. Drove on till 10:00 p.m. and stopped for the night with the trucks. (There are 6 of their vehicles and 2 of ours) They had been at Laguna Chapala when Don and Jack had welded the wheel (One guy had tried to weld without a mask and hurt his eyes so he's wearing dark glasses.) Slept without the tent since the night was so pleasant.

12-25-67 - Mon. - Christmas morning - our sleeping bags are wet from the dew ? but not clear through. The truck carrying our truck ruined a tire the night before so they took off the dual on the other side and are using singles now - This way the driver goes extra slow. We went on ahead - Don rode in the Jeep on the truck. We stopped and waited in Mezquital. It took them an hour and 1/2 to catch up. That noon at Rio Grande they put tires on the duals so they had 4 again. We went on ahead to El Arco where we got gas and then drove on to Los Martires - in the dark part way Met a fellow there who had driven down and was driving back, taking plenty of time. Said the road to Santa Rosalia was washed out. That was the way we had planned to go but after his news, decided to go down the Pacific coast road.

12-26-67 - Tues. - Went to San Ignacio which was very pretty - date palms all over - a river and beautiful mission. Stayed there over an hour and went on over rough rocky roads - passed several other "palm-oasis". Stopped for a late lunch and then had to ford several large clear streams. (Don't think they're year-round though) About sundown Jack hit a high rock and pushed a frame member up against the transmission - so it had a different angle and caused a noticeable vibration. Also a motor mount broke. Don suggested putting in a piece of wood and that helped some - at least we were able to drive on. Drove in to night and took a wrong turn somewhere and before we knew had driven out on a muddy tidal flat and got the Land Rover stuck. Finally got it out - using chains. Drove it out the way it came in. While "unstucking" him we saw lights several times back the way we had come and thought that perhaps the trucks (even our caravan) was going the right way. So we drove back and met 2 trucks - one of which was stuck. We had met them in the afternoon when they were again stopped - blocking our way. They said they thought we were on the right road - we'd see in the a.m. when there was light. So we camped right there in the road for the night. They had evidently been the lights we saw earlier.

12-27-67 - Wed. - Lent a chain to the stuck truck. Ate breakfast while they used the chain to get their truck out. Then we left all together, but we soon left them because they were going slower. Found the right road and drove around the salt flat that the night before we tried to go thru. Made good time - nice day, but ran low on gas. Had to cross several more full clear streams - but don't look like they run all year long. Got gas in a very unusual town - Cadeje - with palms, a stream, and a neat clean town. They had trash barrels along the street - electricity and even streetlights. Ate lunch by the stream and washed our feet - some of us. Crossed another big stream in arroyo south of La Purisima. Drove after dark and got to the graded road. Stopped late in Santo Domingo. Got to bed about 12:00 midnight.

12-28-67 - Thurs. - The day the ferry leaves. Up at sun-up and off. Jack broke a fan belt - engine overheated - replaced it and off again. Got on the pavement - How great! In La Paz shortly after 12:00 noon. Spent a while looking for the home of the chief of the caravan. Finally found it but they hadn?t arrived yet. Went to get car papers but couldn?t get them - closing in five minutes and it will cost $16 later. Must get them at the boat now. Drove out to ferry and waited about 1 hour till they opened after siesta. Found out we did have reservations, but our Jeep isn't here and Jack is going to stay and have his Land Rover fixed. So we only need one place. Two UCLA boys grabbed at the chance to take one place since they hadn't made reservations, and offered us (Mama and me) a place to ride to Los Angeles. Got Records car papers & tickets and said good-by to Don. Boat left at 5:15 p.m., not bad! (suppose to leave at 5:00). Records had to pay $l6 (US) to have car papers issued after hours (that being 1:00 p.m.!!!) I wanted to take Slipper home, but Mama already asked if Suzy could go. The ferry had a cafeteria - so bought sandwiches for dinner.

12-29-67 - Fri. - Spend a miserable night trying to sleep sitting up. During the night some kid woke up crying for its mother. Many people slept on the floor. It seems that first they sell tickets with seat numbers, and then tickets with no numbers. The ones without numbers have to sit and sleep on the floor! Got a good breakfast for $1.00 - ham, eggs, cocoa and roll. Got to Mazatlan about 9:30 a.m. The bow of the ferry lifts up so vehicles can go out that end. (They entered at the stern.) Had to wait a while for Record's Jeep and UCLA boys' VW. Ferry is supposed top hold 114 cars, but most of the vehicles were large trucks. Of the people we saw on the way down, the 2 little red Jeeps and the green Jeep Wagoneer made it. An IH carryall that we saw the third day wasn't there. Several parties, including the UCLA VW came the Gulf Coast route. Suzy didn't potty in the VW, but did chew up the roof-liner of VW. How embarrassing. Mama will see if insurance will cover it when she gets home - otherwise will have to pay it out of her pocket. (Dogs were not allowed with passengers.) Left Mazatlan about noon - Took wrong turn out of town and had to retrace several miles. Ate lunch by roadside north of Tropic of Cancer monument. Got some tamales a kid was selling at a gas station for dinner. Decided to drive on cautiously in the dark. The VW headlights are poor and aimed too low so let the Records lead after nearly hitting two horses. Records decided to quit about 12:00 midnight after seeing a head-on accident and nearly running off the road. We threw sleeping bags on the ground and we don?t have pads now so I put a sweater under me to keep warm.

12-30-67 ? Sat. - Up with sun and had some instant breakfast. Stopped later in Santa Ana (Sonora) and had breakfast at a restaurant - huevos rancheros, potatoes and a salad! Ate the salad in spite of warnings. Just outside of town the bridge was washed out - or something. At any rate tractors were pulling cars across river for $4 (US) a whack! We thought we could connect the VW to the Jeep and then in case the VW couldn't make it, the Jeep could help out. But wires got crossed or something and Tom said he didn't want to tow the VW. Then off he went across the river and left us sitting. Jerry (owner of VW) and Jon decided maybe it would be best to go to Nogales. But Mama said she'd pay the $4. Then they got to thinking that this river was no worse than some in Baja and that we should get out and wade across and push while Jerry drove. Had to push him in one place but got across OK. I got my pants all wet and cut my foot. VW had a pool of water in the floor and my fuzzy boots were on the floor. A few opinionated words were exchanged when we got to where Records were waiting. Finally the subject was dropped and on we went. Stopped one place for a bush and while there, the battery in VW shorted out and started to burn through back seat. And at the same time Record's heater hose came unglued. Tom just joined the hoses and by-passed the heater. Crossed border at Tecate with minimum of red tape - drove on to UCSD. Arrived there about 12:00 midnight and slept on Record's floor.

12-31-67 - Sun. - Up about 7:00 and off silently without waking Tom and Tricia. Stopped by Santa Ana to get Studebaker so I can drive back Monday night. Went on to Whittier and all had breakfast there. Slept all afternoon after a hot bath.

1-2-68 - Letters from Don in La Paz - First one says Jeep hasn't arrived. Second one says it has. He bought a used wheel. They've made arrangements for the ferry, etc. etc.

Second one (I think the first part is a joke) says:
Dear Marian,
The road to the north is washed out, the ferry sank, and the airplane service has been discontinued until the end of the current international revolution. Consequently, I and our 7-ton truck will probably be home in about 41 days. (Ever try to write a letter in a shimmying Land Rover?) Mas dificil. We have reservations on Sunday's boat, got money from traveler's checks, Land Rover will be worked on tomorrow morning at Willys agency. Our Jeep hasn't arrived here as yet but we apologized to the customs officials who turned out to be quite nice fellows and issued our import permit without the Jeep! We had to have it to confirm our reservation.
Tanya and Slipper are shipshape, Jack's in a much better mood; we burned our guts over a chicken enchilada dinner last night. Sunday night is New Year's Eve by our reckoning so we expect a good time on board the ferry Jack will leave without me if our truck does not arrive. Hope your sailing was good and things are OK in VW land as I write this. Jack says he's sorry he scared you to death yesterday. Love you muchly, Don

Dec. 30
Hi - Jeep arrived this a.m. They ran out of gas up the road a piece and had to borrow money - delayed a few hours. One pickup with our gas cans and chains has not yet arrived. We've not yet paid. Bought a used wheel ($20) and Jack had his frame member removed, straightened, and rewelded in place, his front springs tightened, and a crack in his gas tank mended for $13. Very cheap, no? Will be on ferry OK. Dogs are OK. Made customs office today with only two minutes to spare, drove our truck off the other truck (after installing newly acquired brake drum in double quick fashion) and straight to aduana. Did a day's work in 45 min. Now we rest and wait. See you soon, Love, Don

Sharksbaja - 4-16-2006 at 06:08 PM

Thanks Neal, quite a story! Surprised you ever went back.

David, That website is quite the effort.

Maybe it's time you, Neal and some others put it all together in the form of a guide. I'd buy one.

David K - 4-17-2006 at 07:26 AM

The maps from the 1962 Lower California Guidebook are available to view here: http://biology.fullerton.edu/biol517dje/maps/baja_1962.html

Click on a place on the peninsula map to view the detail map of that area...

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by David K]

David K - 5-17-2017 at 04:28 PM

Bump a good thread from 2006!

Sharksbaja - 5-17-2017 at 07:38 PM

:cool:

JZ - 5-17-2017 at 08:29 PM

Loved Neal's report. Crazy.

We did Mexicali, Gonzaga, Cocos, BoLA, San Francisquito, El Arco, on to Santa Rosalia, ferry over to Guaymas, up to Santa Ana, and back to LA in December. About 300 miles of it in the dirt only though. Put my truck in a big truck on the ferry as there was no other room.

I want to do the whole thing in the dirt to La Paz and then over to the mainland within the next year.

chuckie - 5-18-2017 at 02:09 AM

Great Narrative Neal!! Thanks...

mtgoat666 - 5-18-2017 at 06:22 AM

Would be out useful if the explorers posted kml/Kmz files (or other gps line work) of the old road and camino real. PDF and jpg files of maps are not really useful to many in this modern age of gps.

Russ - 5-18-2017 at 07:16 AM

My '68 adventure

David K - 5-18-2017 at 08:31 AM

Wow, we arose Sharksbaja! Hi Corky!

Goat, more and more of the 'Old Road' is no longer passable. Often now as it is fenced across ranches and farms and where it isn't being used anymore, it is washed out from erosion or lack of maintenance. I have posted old road maps with the new highway penciled in to show their relationship... see below...

Russ, cool photo of the 'Gonzaga Grades' south of Puertecitos.

The solid line drawn in is the highway in relation to the main road, here on Gulick's 1962-1970 maps:









South of Bahía Concepción, the main road to La Paz went through Comondú and not Loreto before the new highway grading was in by 1971. The blue arrows show the route of a newer shortcut to Comondú or La Purísima that was open by 1966, we drove it that year.




Cliff Cross published a very popular Baja guide in 1970, with 1972 and 1974 revised editions. His maps were more of a 'bird's eye view' and many people liked them. When he revised the maps to show the new highway, sadly he placed it incorrectly in some places (as did Mike McMahan on the popular wall maps post-1974).

Here, I take Cliff Cross's great maps and add in the new highway more accurately compared to where he shows the old road:








I have also posted Google Earth maps showing the old road alongside Highway 1 south of El Rosario.

chuckie - 5-18-2017 at 09:31 AM

KOOL stuff...

bonanza bucko - 5-18-2017 at 10:39 AM

The Old Road that was the MOST WORST was between Puertecitos and Gonzaga Bay. It used to take 4 to 5 hours to drive that 50 miles in a 4X4 truck. A good dune buggy could make it faster than that.

It wasn't much better between Gonzaga Bay and Lake Challa past Coco's Corner.

The Tres Marias, three mountains about along the coast and high above the beach about 15 miles South of Puertecitos, had shrines at the bottom of the grade so you could pray you would make it over the top.

There was a lath cross with a cowboy hat on it and "RIP Ray Grove" written on it at the top of the middle mountain of the Tres Marias; that was also called Jim Bean Hill because the word was that Ray went over the side and down about 800 feet in the winter of 1975 or so. They found him in his old truck with a bottle of Jim Beam in his boney hands. The truck is still down there.

If you ever drove that old road you will never forget it. I don't know why but I miss it. If you took your time and didn't really plan on getting to Gonzaga Bay today it was nice :-)

The "paved" part of that road from San Felipe to Puertecitos was "better" but still lethal; the potholes occupied more of the road than did the "pavement" and we used to dodge them by swerving from side to side into and out of our lane. Luckily there was almost no traffic. There were many stops for Cerveza Pacifico along that road:-)

BB





BB

Got to get mine in to!

baitcast - 5-18-2017 at 11:48 AM


Gonzaga Bay 1964.....My first date with three sisters



This was a trip report I made a year or so ago on the old Amigos board and thought maybe some of you nomads might get a kick out of it.

A friend of mine asked me if I wanted to know a good spot to go fishing,you bet I said where?....a place in mexico on something called the sea of cortez,lived in huntington bch in those days,jest a hop skip and jump and I would be there great!!!

My friend drew up a map for me,just bought a 64 vw bus and he said I was ready to ,all I had to do was drive down to a bay called Gonzaga and meet a old guy by the name of papa he would show me where to fish,so I packed up the bus,wife two kids and a friend......

He also said I might have a problem or 2 on the road but everything should be fine,I thanked him.
I have always thought that stupidity must be blessful,for in those days I was my late 20,s and still stupid but happy and was always game to try anything if it had anything to do with fishing!!.....

My friend had also mentioned it might get a little hot it was july and I should plan on it ,no problem I borrowed one of those window coolers you hang on the outside of the rig,there I took care of the heat problem,went out and bought a map which gave mileage and some other stuff,we were ready to go.

The trip........

left huntington bch late on night ,should be in san felipe by morning, puertecitos a couple of hours later ,Gonzaga for lunch,everything went smoothly,arrived in san felipe on time , and now the dirt I can,t wait finally the trip starts,not 10 min,s later we were stuck in a sand pit,I could still see san felipe,this is not what I had in mind,I did bring a shovel,half hour later we were on our way again........

the going was a little slower than I had planned but no matter we were headed south,finally puertecitos dead ahead,getting a little tired,the kids are a bit loud,my wife is talking to herself not loud something about this #$%^ road

I couldn,t make out the other things ,my friend is saying nothing by now,stopped for some gas in town,while there a gringo came by and asked where we were going I said Gonzaga Bay its just down the road a ways from here!!!
Left the window cooler at the station,does,nt work going 10 15 miles anyway,he thanked me.......

Not2 mins out of town I lost track of the road saw nothing but rock,know its here somewhere.....

going is slow ,its very hot,my oldest daughter is getting sick.......

and my wife ...I can hear her now she is getting mad it me,how could I do this to to her and the kids.......

I was very reasurring and told her the bay was just over the next rise,having no idea what I was talking about,the map I just bought mentions something about three hills that must be climbed and we are in them....

God help us.....

the first two we just made,we are at the bottom of the last and my wife wan,ts to go home,she wan,ts to get out and walk,no problem dear we will get over this we,ll have it made,I put my foot in it and up we go,going slower I see a rock ledge dead ahead must slow down,now stopped can,t make it over,put my foot on the brakes and start to slide back down the hill.....

at the bottom of the canyon my spots several wrecks,poor souls never made it,we are now backing down the hill,my hands are shaking,kids are crying,my friend is white faced,tried once more but could not get over the ledge.....

one thing left to do back down to the bottom,told everyone to get out and walk,just what my wife wanted to do in the first place.......

Well this time I made it ,felt like rocky on top of that mountion.......

flat lands dead ahead,I am numb between the ears but know we are getting close.....

No sooner than we get to the bottom of the hills and I,m stuck again in the sand,will this never end???


Digging and more digging,starting to get pretty good at this though...can,t be to far,daughters temp. is still up,monster headache,finally arrive at papa,s late in the day but find just a couple of old house,s and a shack or two and no trees,

I check my map my friend gave me,I,m suppose to go down the canyon just before papa,s,he said the fishing was best there and a nice beach so I turned around and made for the canyon,found a set of tracks to follow,you guessed it stuck again only this time no amount of digging is going to get us out,

my friend said he would watch the family for me so now I,m walking back to papa,s,sometime later I arrive in camp and this little old man come,s up to me smiling and said something,he already knew what the problem was ,

first thing you know chichi his son and a man with a big rig shows up ,things appeared to be a little slow in camp anyway this would everyone something to do ......

Didn,t take long for them to get us out.......Guess we will stay at papa,s place,the ground looks firm and I,m not moving,the wife got the kids in the water for a cool down and I and my friend enjoyed the best and the coldest beer we have ever drank to this day.

After a wonderful nites sleep we got up and started looking for shade,no trees what do you do for shade I asked he smiled and pointed toward his front porch........

Lucky for us papa had started to build a big cabana all it needed was a roof,so my first day of vacation we finished the roof.....still lots to this vacation but you get the idea,lots to learn but having fun,going home no problem all the up hills were now down hills and I knew what firm ground looks like,when we hit the highway at san felipe we all smiled and my wife leaned over and gave me a big kiss and said when we come down next vacation maybe we should go a month or so sooner,might not be so hot

willardguy - 5-18-2017 at 12:21 PM

LOVED that road....the first half dozen times. after that the dozens and dozens of weekly trips carting building materials to Papa's over that road, not so much! :(

David K - 5-18-2017 at 12:23 PM

Agree that the Puertecitos to Gonzaga road before 1986 was indeed the toughest main route in Baja! Drove on it in '65, '67, '74, '75, and '79. The first two years as a passenger as I was under 16.
However, the silt beds of Laguna Chapala were so much worse to drive through (Tijuana to Cabo in 1966) that my dad chose going via Gonzaga on our 1967 trip to L.A. Bay.

StuckSucks - 5-18-2017 at 04:11 PM

I believe this is a chunk of old road along Bahía Concepción:

JZ - 6-4-2019 at 10:08 AM

Someone needs to build and share a kmz. Maybe I'll do it.

4x4abc - 6-4-2019 at 12:47 PM

I have almost all of it
haven't found some sections south of Guerrero Negro yet

David K - 6-4-2019 at 02:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I have almost all of it
haven't found some sections south of Guerrero Negro yet


The old road did not go through or near Guerrero Negro. That town didn't exist until the late 1950s.

I highlighted it from near El Arco to near San Ignacio:

Attachment: Old Road-1.kmz (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 242 times

JZ - 6-4-2019 at 02:25 PM

So how much of it can you drive these days without climbing over boulders?

David K - 6-4-2019 at 02:56 PM

It's not boulders, it is property fences or washouts in sections that are not used any longer. As you can see from the maps I have edited to show the old road route, the new highway follows it pretty closely. The old road made a good construction access road. The road crews even graded much of the old road to improve access for construction vehicles. The two areas where the old road and the new are apart are from Rosarito (Nuevo Rosarito) to near Vizcaino and from the bottom of Bahia Concepcion to Insurgentes.

The new highway favored Guerrero Negro over El Arco and favored Loreto over Comondú.

4x4abc - 6-4-2019 at 07:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I have almost all of it
haven't found some sections south of Guerrero Negro yet


The old road did not go through or near Guerrero Negro. That town didn't exist until the late 1950s.

I highlighted it from near El Arco to near San Ignacio:



my mistake - I had south of Comondu in mind

mtgoat666 - 6-4-2019 at 08:15 PM

The prettiest old road section is the old road thru Catavina.

From what I have seen, the definition of old road is a bit loose. The old road changed over time. 120 years from now, when the ic engine is obsolete (and petroleum is gone, sea level is 60 ft higher, and San Felipe summers are a whole lot hotter), your “new road” will be your g-g-great grandchildren’s “old road”


David K - 6-4-2019 at 09:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I have almost all of it
haven't found some sections south of Guerrero Negro yet


The old road did not go through or near Guerrero Negro. That town didn't exist until the late 1950s.

I highlighted it from near El Arco to near San Ignacio:



my mistake - I had south of Comondu in mind

In the 1960s and much of the 50s, from Comondú the route was out the same canyon as the current route. The road bumped into the long straight, graded road at Poza Grande. The older road was not straight and went through Santo Domingo, and south along the coast by Punta Conejo.

1962:







1958:



1941:



[Edited on 6-5-2019 by David K]

HeyMulegeScott - 6-5-2019 at 10:08 AM

Here's part of the old road in the bottom of the pic and I was told the zig zag in the top of the picture is how they brought in equipment to make the new road.

JZ - 6-5-2019 at 10:24 AM

What bay is that in Conception?

David K - 6-5-2019 at 11:33 AM



In the 1970 Cliff Cross Baja Guide, he drew in the new road where he thought it was being built. Cliff mentions a construction camp was at El Requesón during his research trip (possibly in 1969?). In 1966, it was just the old road, along the edge of the bay except for where it went inland between El Coyote and Buenaventura/ Requesón).

Construction crews used the old road and yes, there was some of the old road obliterated where the new road was on top of it. However, that narrow switchback to the top of the ridge was not likely used to transport anything for roadwork, IMO.

In his 1974 Updated guide, Cliff Cross corrected the paved highway location from his 1970 & 1972 editions...



Except for south of El Requesón, the new paved highway and the old road were in the same or very near the same place.

HeyMulegeScott - 6-5-2019 at 11:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
What bay is that in Conception?


Burro.

David K - 6-5-2019 at 11:38 AM

Here is a look at the old road, from the new, south of Requesón:

HeyMulegeScott - 6-5-2019 at 12:09 PM

- -that narrow switchback to the top of the ridge was not likely used to transport anything for roadwork, IMO. - -

David -It's a mystery then. Maybe created by aliens or lost Vikings? :D

David K - 6-5-2019 at 12:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Three2tango  
- -that narrow switchback to the top of the ridge was not likely used to transport anything for roadwork, IMO. - -

David -It's a mystery then. Maybe created by aliens or lost Vikings? :D


Maybe? LOL... I looked at Google Earth to see if it goes down the other side, and it does...
So, as sharp as the switchbacks are, probably not used for construction equipment trucks but maybe it was a temporary detour for travelers as they built the highway on that cliff?

4x4abc - 6-5-2019 at 12:41 PM

the challenge to create a complete GPS file is that
1 the old maps are not very accurate
2 place names are either wrong or have changed
3 it is sometimes very difficult to visually trace the old road(s) on Google Earth due to development (many new roads crisscrossing the area) or intense vegetation growth

even with old photographs some locations are very challenging
still scratching my head on some Concepcion images from the 30's

the track zig zagging down the mountain at Cuesta El Burro is likely a work track - it is not well defined and not improved at all
equipment transport makes sense to me

David K - 6-5-2019 at 03:09 PM

The highway construction companies in 1970-73 were one in the south building north and one in the north building south. The south team made much greater progress than the north team. By 1972, the south team built the highway from Constitucion to Santa Rosalia. The north team only got paving to Colonia Guerrero/ San Quintín area from Colonet on a roadbed that was already made back in the 50s.

1973 is when the magic happened and more companies were added to rush the job. The width of the final section was made the minimum. By July the south team reached Laguna Chapala with the new roadbed with paving in sections to Punta Prieta. The north team only made it through El Rosario to near San Agustin with paving to the Mission San Fernando road. By November, the road was completed.

The north and south construction teams met at San Ignacito (12 kms. south of Cataviña). The highway was officially opened on Dec. 1, 1973.




The last AAA Map (1973) made before the highway was finished:

4x4abc - 6-5-2019 at 08:56 PM

spent a couple of hours looking again for traces of the old road south-east of El Medano
NOTHING!

David K - 6-6-2019 at 05:46 AM

That is the old-old road (1940s) west of Santa Rita. Use Howard Gulick's map to see the route. Southeast: It heads to Rancho Santa Fe. The Baja 1000 has used it or a parallel route.






[Edited on 6-6-2019 by David K]

4x4abc - 6-6-2019 at 09:03 AM

well, all those maps are fine and dandy - but to actually trace the old route on Google Earth is a completely different story

David K - 6-6-2019 at 09:43 AM

When I get home tonight, I will have a go at it Harald... But, I bet you will have more luck. Howard's maps are very good. He was an engineer and at every curve in the road, he got out of his Willys Wagon, walked several feet away (so the compass would not be affected by the Jeep's metal) and took the directional reading.

His hand drawn maps were quite amazing. The Lower California Guidebook (1956-1970) used abbreviated versions, reduced scale maps to fit in the book. I saw one of his original maps when I was a kid at the home of one of his traveling partners, Andy Anderson.

The maps are archived at the University of California, San Diego.

TMW - 6-6-2019 at 10:26 AM

Harald try using Bing satellite images. They are clearer than GE.

4x4abc - 6-6-2019 at 12:18 PM

OK - then here is the challenge:
bring me a usable track of the old road between El Medano and Rancho Tepeyac - Rancho Santa Fe and I'll buy you dinner and unlimited drinks
forget the 1950's Pemex exploratory tracks (almost always dead straight lines)

David K - 6-7-2019 at 12:16 AM

From Rancho Santa Fe south to Punta Conejo is easy but from R. Santa Fe north to El Médano, I am only seeing very straight lines once north of the arroyo crossing... Not that the 1940s road can't be a straight line, but Howard drew it with a bit of a bow to it, it seems to me?
Do you have the dates when Pemex did their exploratory drilling there? I know they tried near Scammon's Lagoon.
Gulick's first edition (1956) has road logs on both new and old highway roads. He traveled them in 1953.

4x4abc - 6-7-2019 at 08:52 AM

the Pemex exploration tracks are from the 1950's
they are kind of a Baja mystery
they are there, but no official documents
some government announcement that they wanted to do it, but nothing more
some are used as roads by the locals now

the Pemex tracks between El Medano and Santa Fe do not match any of the maps from 1940 to 1970

I have found some cow tracks and possible sections of that elusive old road, but not much

I think we can call that stretch now the "El Medano Gap"
http://baja101.com/Baja-GPS/Medano-Gap.kmz

Russ - 6-7-2019 at 09:08 AM

Here's a couple from my '68 trip to Cabo area.

A young me






Our camp where we stayed for 3 weeks. We called it Solitito. The folks I was with started Las Baracas. Haven't been there since that trip.





[Edited on 6-9-2019 by BajaNomad]

Russ - 6-8-2019 at 04:47 PM

All photos taken June & July of '68

Fatboy - 6-8-2019 at 08:41 PM

So cool, have Road Envy for all you folks that went to Baja pre '70's.

Can't go to the Baja of back then anymore but reading old books and trip reports and seeing old pictures is really neat.

watizname - 6-9-2019 at 07:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Russ  
Here's a couple from my '68 trip to Cabo area.

A young me






Our camp where we stayed for 3 weeks. We called it Solitito. The folks I was with started Las Baracas. Haven't been there since that trip.




Sooooooooo-------All those stories about Big Fish were TRUE. Didja see the size of that Sierra?? Nice fish Russ. :cool:







[Edited on 6-9-2019 by BajaNomad]

David K - 6-9-2019 at 08:06 AM

Here are four photos from 1974 near Alfonsina's where I camped, and on the road going from Gonzaga Bay north to Puertecitos (I was 16 on my first non-parent Baja trip):









Here's a photo from 1965, our first family Baja trip in the new Jeep Wagoneer, to Gonzaga Bay (south from Puertecitos):

4x4abc - 6-9-2019 at 09:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  








does this grade have a name?

David K - 6-9-2019 at 09:45 AM

In fact, the major grades did and were how the truckers referred to them. The big grade in the photo may have been the longest. In the distance in my photo is Cerro Prieto volcano.

Here, from the Lower California Guidebook, 1962 edition:




Here is the map of the grades from Cliff Cross, 1970:



Gringos have called the grades the sisters (or 3 sisters) or three Marías, etc. My parents referred to them as the "Gonzaga Grades" in the 1960s, diving over them three times. I drove over them in 1974, 75, and 79. The 1979 trip was extremely tough as the road was no longer maintained after Highway 1 was completed and all commercial traffic came in from there, via Calamajué to 1983, then via the new graded road from Chapala after.



[Edited on 6-9-2019 by David K]

Fatboy - 6-9-2019 at 11:49 AM

Do you know which one is in your picture?

David K - 6-9-2019 at 01:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy  
Do you know which one is in your picture?


Because the photo shows it some distance to the south of Cerro Prieto, and it is a long grade, my guess is Cuesta El Huerfanito, #6 on Cliff Cross' map, and the one in Russ' photo showing the cut at the top. That cut was a new (1960-ish) addition to reduce the steepness a bit.

The original pilot road that Arturo Gross made (1956) can be seen in spots. The government followed Grosso a couple of years later and improved Grosso's road. That road remained until it was virtually impassable in the early 1980s and in 1986, the new, wide, graded road was built. When the new paved highway went in beginning in 2007, they used a different alignment in some places.


Here is a photo from Howard Gulick taken just north of El Huerfanito in 1956...

bb0956849f_2.jpg - 202kB



[Edited on 6-9-2019 by David K]

bb88067497_2.jpg - 174kB

David K - 6-9-2019 at 01:23 PM

Puertecitos in 1956, the pilot road just completed and nothing yet developed there... Howard Gulick photo:

bb4881802v_2.jpg - 157kB




In 1959...


bb7543924h_2.jpg - 182kB

[Edited on 6-9-2019 by David K]

Fatboy - 6-9-2019 at 02:52 PM

Neat Gulick pictures

David K - 6-9-2019 at 04:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy  
Neat Gulick pictures


Yes, Howard Gulick was THE Baja guy who logged and mapped all the roads back in the 1950s and early 60s....

His book remains an excellent source for data on Baja's backcountry and history...



Don't you love that cover photo with our favorite palm tree? The photo was taken in 1953, and the palm still remains just above the high tide line, 66 years later! :light::lol:

The old Hwy. 1

David K - 6-9-2019 at 04:56 PM

East of San Ignacio, photo from late 1960s:

4x4abc - 6-9-2019 at 05:50 PM

here are the Cuestas

4x4abc - 6-9-2019 at 06:10 PM

and here is La Cuesta Vieja at Tres Virgines

4x4abc - 6-9-2019 at 06:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  








does this grade have a name?


looks like Cuesta La Virgen to me

Pablito1 - 6-10-2019 at 06:53 AM

Harald,
Did you know Harry Kemp the retired policeman that lived at Papa Fernandez camp? Harry told me that the big hill of which the photo is of was called "Jim Beam" hill of course that was a Gringo name.

Regards

David K - 6-10-2019 at 07:34 AM

Harald, did you drive the old dirt road south of Puertecitos (before 1986)?

Interesting stuff on your Google Earth. I like the CR marks. Looks like you also were seeking a route between Hwy. 1 and Hwy. 5 as some of us have?
How did you come to apply the cuesta names where you did?
You could be right about the cuesta of my photo.

4x4abc - 6-10-2019 at 10:34 AM

I have been driving all the old roads between Puertecitos and Alfonsinas after 1986 - many times with clients as an off-road adventure
the names are from a variety of maps and government papers from the last construction (Pavement)
there are several connections between MEX1 and MEX5 - most are old mining trails. One is drivable with a serious 4x4 or MC.
Took my friend Pete from Huerfanitos 20 years ago. He still tells friends about my attempt to kill him on the way up.
After the negative response to our east-west crossing through Las Tarabillas I decided to no longer publish where i have been in Baja.
https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Uno-Baja-Extreme-A...

interesting that you have CR marks - my file does not show any. Got a picture?

David K - 6-10-2019 at 11:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I have been driving all the old roads between Puertecitos and Alfonsinas after 1986 - many times with clients as an off-road adventure
the names are from a variety of maps and government papers from the last construction (Pavement)
there are several connections between MEX1 and MEX5 - most are old mining trails. One is drivable with a serious 4x4 or MC.
Took my friend Pete from Huerfanitos 20 years ago. He still tells friends about my attempt to kill him on the way up.
After the negative response to our east-west crossing through Las Tarabillas I decided to no longer publish where i have been in Baja.
https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Uno-Baja-Extreme-A...

interesting that you have CR marks - my file does not show any. Got a picture?


The photos appear to be those from Baja Sur, not west from Huerfanito?
Where is Las Tarabillas?
The CR (Coast Route) points I saw after I loaded your kmz file were actually from Neal Johns... as he was one of us searching for a vehicle route between the two highways. This one was from near El Mármol to near El Huerfanito.


4x4abc - 6-10-2019 at 11:27 AM

Arroyo Las Tarabillas: 24°27'20.69"N, 110°46'26.89"W

David K - 6-10-2019 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Arroyo Las Tarabillas: 24°27'20.69"N, 110°46'26.89"W


OH, well... that is why I didn't get the photo link you posted... we were speaking of Hwy. 1 to Hwy. 5 near El Huerfanito, and you had that crossing in mind, instead! Thanks for clearing that up Harald!

Does Karl have all the Baja books he got from me where you can get to them to read? If not, just let me know what you need a look at and I will try and find that in the old books of Baja I have.

4x4abc - 6-10-2019 at 12:19 PM

haven't had contact with Karl for while.

4x4abc - 6-13-2019 at 12:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Pablito1  
Harald,
Did you know Harry Kemp the retired policeman that lived at Papa Fernandez camp? Harry told me that the big hill of which the photo is of was called "Jim Beam" hill of course that was a Gringo name.

Regards

never met Harry Kemp

4x4abc - 6-13-2019 at 07:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Russ  

[URL=https://s232.photobucket.com/user/Russinbaja/media/Baja%2068/file-1.jpg.html]



I did some digging on my old maps - seems like the image is of Cuesta el Huerfanito looking north. At the bottom of the hill is Campo Zavala Salome

David K - 6-14-2019 at 07:25 AM

The only camps south of Puertecitos when I traveled the old road was El Huerfanito and Okie Landing. A guy worked the road for tips and left his wheel barrel along the road seeking donations. Cliff Cross has a photo of him. I think he started Campo Salvatierra. Cinco Islas and Punta Bufeo came later.

4x4abc - 6-14-2019 at 10:50 AM

Campo Zavala Salome was a Mexican fish camp - not a Gringo creation

4x4abc - 6-14-2019 at 12:23 PM

Name reference on map H11B88

John Harper - 6-14-2019 at 12:46 PM

Love the VW bus shot!!!

John

David K - 6-14-2019 at 05:55 PM

El Huerfanito and Okie Landing were also Mexican owned camps. The Mexicans asked their first clients (from Oklahoma) what would be a good name for their new campo.

I have NEVER seen any place named "Campo Zavala Salome" in all the trips I took down there... nor was there any such name on any maps or books I have seen.

4x4abc - 6-14-2019 at 07:45 PM

I started going down that road in 1986 and sure remember structures on that beach

David K - 6-14-2019 at 08:00 PM

Oh sure, it's on the map as little black squares. It just never had any signage to invite clients that I saw. As for the names on the Mexican topos, they are often not correct or make sense, as if nobody traveled there to ask.

4x4abc - 6-14-2019 at 08:29 PM

so glad we have you accurate maps

JZ - 6-14-2019 at 08:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Harald try using Bing satellite images. They are clearer than GE.


I checked this out, and you are correct, but how to trace a route on Bing?

It wasn't obvious to me.

David K - 6-15-2019 at 08:51 AM

JZ: Correct, Bing often has newer images and better images... but there is no tools to measure or place waypoints, etc. At least that I could see last I was there.

Harald: I am not competing with Inegi or any complete topo maps. My maps are ONLY made to help see your location while using my road guide. I am a visual person. I like road logs but I also like to have an area map to see where I am in relation to other places.

Inegi or anyone's maps should at least check places out or try and be more accurate. Their mistakes with Gonzaga Bay and Arroyo el Volcán are just two examples in the area of discussion that show a lack of professionalism or at least research.

TMW - 6-15-2019 at 01:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Harald try using Bing satellite images. They are clearer than GE.


I checked this out, and you are correct, but how to trace a route on Bing?

It wasn't obvious to me.


JZ when I'm looking at a trail or tracing one on Google Earth and come to a place where I can't see the route I'll look at the Bing image to see where it goes then trace that part on GE.



[Edited on 6-15-2019 by TMW]

4x4abc - 6-15-2019 at 01:28 PM

I sometimes use Bing or Zoom to check whether I can get a better view of something I am looking for
Sometimes works

Google is unbeatable for many reasons
I use the 3D function often to see the terrain better
looking for old trails I often use the time slider
years with much vegetation hide trails
years with sparse vegetation reveal what's there

Bing has none of that

besides, tracing roads and saving waypoints is essential for me


2009.jpg - 192kB

2006.jpg - 175kB

[Edited on 6-15-2019 by 4x4abc]

David K - 6-15-2019 at 01:56 PM

Is that El Camino Real?

4x4abc - 6-15-2019 at 02:23 PM

possibly

David K - 6-17-2019 at 08:45 AM

That would be the "really" old road then!

The El Camino Real on Google Earth from Mission Loreto to Mission El Rosario: http://caminorealbaja.com/

4x4abc - 6-17-2019 at 10:41 AM

what those 2 hikers accomplished over the years is senzational

even though they recorded only a small portion of Camino Real - they covered amazing ground

in parts, I believe, they are wrong (north of Calamajue for example), but with so few signs on the ground it is difficult to determine what is what

cool is the documentation of the early trail version from San Javier to Comondu

David K - 6-17-2019 at 12:49 PM

Yep... they have been working on that GPS list for 10 years.
The ECR north from Calamajué has been tricky to find.
Howard Gulick had it going through a canyon to the west a bit north from Calamajué in his 1950's paper. He relied on local input from people like Dick Daggett and Arturo Grosso who had been mining that area for many years. Harry Crosby's maps seem to agree more with our Canadian friends on it staying closer to the auto road to Las Arrastras from Calamajué mission.

Gulick 1955:


Crosby 1974:


Crosby 1977:

I don't think the Calamajué mission is located correctly on this map?

4x4abc - 6-17-2019 at 02:51 PM

there are a couple of factors that promote the Gulick route:
A the padres always chose the most direct and straight route
B there is at least one significant source of water en route

David K - 6-18-2019 at 08:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
there are a couple of factors that promote the Gulick route:
A the padres always chose the most direct and straight route
B there is at least one significant source of water en route


Is that water source the ranch west of Coco's?

Otherwise, the water hole of San Francisco (later renamed San Francisquito) is just beyond Las Arrastras, where they got water. Serra camped there on his way to San Diego, I recall.


1956 Gulick Map showing San Francisquito water hole.

4x4abc - 6-18-2019 at 12:09 PM

yes, Rancho las Arrastritas
also, just north of Calamajue is a canyon called Arroyo Tinaja de los Frailes indicating water found/used by the padres
this canyon is on the more direct route

David K - 6-18-2019 at 05:18 PM

The next water source on El Camino Real, north of San Francisco (San Francisquito), is Las Palmitas. Then not until the Santa María mission valley (post 1769). 1767-1769, the Camino Real was in the canyon, with the beautiful pools of water.

David K - 6-25-2020 at 12:52 PM

Bumping up a nice post from Sharksbaja.