BajaNomad

Random Readings: Why most Americans still don't get Mexico

bajajudy - 5-8-2006 at 06:28 AM

BY KELLY ARTHUR GARRETT/The Herald Mexico
El Universal
Domingo 07 de mayo de 2006
The infamous mutual misunderstanding between Mexicans and Americans has been centuries in the making, but only lately has it camped out behind the headlines and in the boardrooms. You'd never know it from the self-righteous accusations flying in all directions, but the problem isn't really anybody's fault.

Rather, says Ned Crouch in his "Mexicans and Americans: Cracking the Cultural Code," there are deep-rooted cultural differences that muddy the waters. By cultural differences, he's not talking about eating midday meals at 3 p.m. or relying on speed bumps instead of stop signs. The book is about more fundamental blueprints; it's about the assumptions and shared values that underlie the visible customs and behaviors on what Crouch calls the outer circle of culture.

Americans are usually clueless about the Mexican inner circle. (The reverse is true as well, of course, but that's not the topic under discussion here.) Crouch, an American born into a diplomatic family with a long career in international business, offers the uninitiated a 256-page introduction to that inner circle.

One obstacle to any meaningful understanding is the comfortable little delusion that speaking Spanish, along with trying your best not to be an Ugly American, is enough to get the job done. "Perhaps our own hegemony lures us into thinking that differences with Mexicans can easily be glossed over," Crouch writes. "A little extra smile, a friendly slap on the back, a peppy 'hola mano' and we've conquered that ?culture thing.'"

Another stumbling block: It's a complete and not entirely welcome surprise to many Americans that they bring their own set of cultural assumptions to the party. What they see as an objective observation ("traffic would flow more smoothly if drivers respected lanes") may in reality be an imposition of their own biases.

Some will be quick to call that American arrogance, but it's natural and universal. It's also an impediment to what Crouch calls "cultural fluency." You can't appreciate another's point of view if you block access to it with your own. Like a kitten first opening its eyes, putting what you "know" on hold is the essential first step into a new world.

Crouch's three entry points into the deep structure of Mexican culture are the conceptions of time, personal space and the meaning of "yes" and "no." The latter is an exploration of the Mexican's desire to please, making "yes" the default answer even when "no" is the correct one.

This can strike an American as unnecessarily confusing, if not dishonest. But if you understand the underlying motive, you're halfway to dealing with it. You may even learn to appreciate it.

The two cultures' differing sense of space plays out in a lot of ways. Crouch uses the example of the American lying alone on a beach when a Mexican family sets up camp right next to him. The American feels his space has been invaded; the Mexicans were naturally gravitating to "where the people are."

The culturally fluent American will whip out his understanding of space concepts and react accordingly. Most, however, will get upset, maybe even stalk off in a huff. That's where the problems start.

"You're feeling violated; they're feeling discriminated against," Crouch writes. "While you're asking why they are so intrusive, they're wondering what it is about them you don't like."

So you can't lie on the beach by yourself? That's not the point. "We don't have to change our standards to please them," Crouch writes, "but we do have to get used to the idea that there are two ways of doing everything. Theirs is no worse than ours."

The Mexican approach to time gets caricatured as a tendency to put off everything until ma?ana. Crouch does both Mexicans and Americans a favor by going beyond that simplistic and erroneous view. His explanation doesn't lend itself to a brief summary, but it has to do with time as a circle (Mexican) versus time as an arrow (American).

Check your feelings next time you're standing in line at a bank or a ticket counter. Do you see each person standing in front of you as "an impediment to acquiring (your) target??

Or do you think, "We are all going in the same direction. We will all get there at about the same time, so why worry?"

If nothing else, just being aware of these fundamental cultural differences will help inoculate you from the worst-case scenario. And you know what that is. It's the blow-up, the full-blown gringo wig-out, what Crouch calls "smashing pottery." Frustration at what appears to be ? and, let's face it, often is ? unbearable inefficiency may be human, but once you snap, you've lost. Tilt. Game over.

Fortunately, the most common Mexican response to your unseemly display is laughter, a smile at the always-amusing spectacle of somebody living up to their stereotype. But that doesn't mean they like it. "A common theme in American-Mexican conflict is our irritability," Crouch says. "Mexicans really don't understand the anger factor. They take it personally."

Crouch's foray into cultural analysis is more informed than most of what I've read in this genre, but it's subject to the same pitfalls as the rest. The most obvious is generalization. The unrelenting emphasis on shared culture leaves the impression that all Mexicans (and Americans for that matter) think and act alike. Very little importance is given to regional, ethnic and class influences on behavior and thought, not to mention the role of individual agency.

Yes, culture matters: But it's not destiny.

Another is a sort of exaggerated literalness to the cultural set pieces. For example, when Crouch writes, "Never believe the first answer you get in Mexico," we have to assume he's really just reminding us to be aware that a Mexican's first impulse is often to please rather than inform. Otherwise, it's an outrageous statement to make.

In his eagerness to assign cultural causes to Mexican phenomena, Crouch understandably ignores others. It's interesting to know that what Americans consider "uproariously overdrawn" about most Mexican soap operas and comedies can be traced to the function of masks so deeply embedded in Mexican myth. "What Mexicans call acting we call faking," Crouch writes, as though it's the final word on the subject. "For them, acting is hyperreality."

But that comes pretty close to saying that Mexican television is supposed to be bad (and trust me, it's not only foreigners who recognize just how god-awful commercial television entertainment can be in Mexico). It ignores that the Televisa-TV Azteca has sent much popular entertainment into artistic freefall. It denies that given a budget and some freedom, Mexican filmmakers create world-class material that has nothing to do with "hyperreality." Again, culture is not destiny.

Crouch tells a personal anecdote from the 1940s, meaning he's been around for a while. It seems at time he's trying to throw all of his vast knowledge into this book. When he strays from cultural analysis, or tries to shoehorn it in to where it doesn't belong, he has less to offer.

Curious observations and outright errors abound. His notion that good-natured razzing isn't heard in the workplace indicates he hasn't taken the elevator down from the executive floor often enough. The statement that "in contrast to the U.S., conflict is rarely public in Mexico" makes me wonder if he's read a newspaper lately. The assertion that the formal second person "usted" is "always capitalized" makes me wonder if he's read anything at all lately.

You'll find your own favorites along these lines. The Zapatista uprising of the "1980s"? Madero assuming the presidency in "1914?" The landmark exhibition "50 Centuries of Mexican Civilization"? The "Toltec" ruins at Teotihuac?n?

But just skip that stuff. Ned Crouch may be shaky on some of the surface details but he's a helpful guide for touring the bedrock. Besides, much of the interest in a book like his is disagreeing, questioning, challenging. I found much to question and challenge, but just as much to ponder and absorb.

My only complaint is that the eternal question about Mexican culture remains unanswered: Why are the waiters so eager to take your plate away?

kelly.garrett@eluniversal.com.mx

Mexicans and Americans: Cracking the Cultural Code By Ned Crouch Nicholas Brealy Publishing (2004)

JESSE - 5-8-2006 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajajudy

My only complaint is that the eternal question about Mexican culture remains unanswered: Why are the waiters so eager to take your plate away?



Because in Mexico, after you eat, you want to relax, smoke, get a drink, and start socializing with your friends or family, it is considered bad service to leave plates on the table when you no longer need them.

Jesse

Baja Bernie - 5-8-2006 at 04:46 PM

And they will not bring the check until asked so that you may have a leisurely conversatin after dinner with friends.

I am always surprised when this peees off many gringos who want their check so they can leave as soon as they are finished with the food.

Funny, it now upset me because in the states you often get the check before you can even decide if you would like a desert--they just want you out of there so they can fill your chairs with new customers.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-8-2006 at 08:20 PM

Grover: I have a suggestion that may Help YOU understand the People of Baja Sur Mexico!

Go to Baja Sur and live with the Fisherman of Loreto and San Nicholas, Agua Verde,La Paz, San Carlos Bay, Cudid Constitution{Villa} San Giorigo, La Purisuma, Muelge and points in between!
Learn Spanish!
Have a 0ne eyed Indian dive to 105 Ft. with a rock and bring up Coral, just because he likes you.!
Go fishing with Alvaro Murillo Romero who has saved your life and you in turn have save his Life.
Watch the Poor people send their Kids off to school out of a Cardboard shack, Dressed and eager to Learn.
Learn what the word"Metache" means!
Then come back to this board and tell us "What you learned by Living with and around the Mexicano People.

Forget about the BS you read in a Newspaper or Book.

You will be a better person from your experience!

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I trust"

Mutual Understandings

MrBillM - 5-9-2006 at 09:07 AM

This discussion is defining a problem that really is insignificant. Every country or society will have its own customs different from others. So What. It doesn't make theirs right and ours wrong or vice versa. It's simply a different way of looking at life. To assume that we "need" to have a deep understanding of those cultural beliefs and habits assumes that we wish to meld into that culture. Not all of us have any such desire. I didn't come to Baja wishing to become a Mexicano, just as I didn't go to any other foreign country wishing to become like them. While I am respectful of their customs and beliefs in social intercourse, that doesn't mean that I respect those differences as being correct. Skeet's suggestion to live amonst the native population as one of them to appreciate their way of life is ludicrous. I don't want to be a native fisherman. I worked hard for a lot of years so I can live a better life. Following Skeet's example, I guess that I should move down to the South L.A. ghetto so that I can understand their look at life.

I came to Baja originally for recreation and adventure. I established a residence there to be near the ocean to fish, swim, sail and enjoy my retirement. No desire on my part to go native. My only obligation is to treat others with the respect that they deserve, obey the laws (well, most of them) and pay my own way.

Cincodemayo - 5-9-2006 at 09:31 AM

Mr Bill....Awesome response!
Everyone has their own interpretation on what their life should be so Skeet has a good response also. What ever floats your boat as long as you are courteous and respectful of THEIR laws and country.

Packoderm - 5-9-2006 at 09:54 AM

I think BM has a point. What fun would it be to have Australians around if they were to make a vow to act exactly like Americans? However, my view is coming from a dominant worldwide culture. I have no such inferiority complex when it comes to those types of things. I would probably feel a bit differently if, for instance, the U.S. area was colored brown on our televised weather reports while the adjacent country was brightly colored because they own the weather satellites.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-9-2006 at 10:45 AM

Mr. Bill M.
I went to Baja sur First because of a book I read called The Sea Of Cortez by Ray Cannon.I could not beleive that such Fishing was that Good!
Later as I spent more time with the fisherman I observed a Quality of life that was lacking in the States..
I met People that lived in Cardboard Shacks, come out each day with a Smile on their Face and a Warm Heart in their Chest. It all had to do with that "Manana' Attitude of Life!
Why was it just the opposite in the States?
Why all of the Lying, Cheating and Stealing that was coming over the People of California?
I went to work in Hollywood Calif, the home of the most Physical, Mental Degerante People I had ever Seen.Because I would not sign off on a application and Erase a "Felony confiction Rap for a New Dealer, another Investigator and I were Punished and sent to South Central LA,.the same person who Punished us was later given 4 to 14 in Chino

I turned in my Badge and determined I was too small and Honest for Law Enforcement.That the People I had Sworn to Protect Hated my guts because I was White and a Cop!
I went into Civil Investigation,Aviation Accident Investigation, in San Francisco, Oakland Calif. I was Licensed in Nevada as a Private Investigator.
In all my various Professions I learned about people and worked very Hard at "What I did".

The 60's started changing our Society into a Culture of"Cheaters" and people who did no want to Produce any thing .

Baja and its People gave me the Escape and release from the Drug Culture that was sweeping the Country.San Francisco became so bad that you could not go to the theater with out getting "Flashed". So yes, I found in the Mexican People a way of life that I preferred.--Were I saw Kids come out of a Shack, Dress Clean and neat going to school withsmiles on their Faces. I saw the people who worked Hard and Long each day just for Food as well as those who will not work!

Look around you in the States and observe our culture and tell me it is Better?Some kids cannot even pass 5thGrade Math,do not know who was the First President of this Great country . There is "No discipline".

I chose to learn Spanish, and took my Children to Loreto to learn an different culture.Now my Grand Children are being afforted the same Lessons to be learned.
Controll yur Passions and keep yur desires within due Bounds.

Skeet Loreto

vandenberg - 5-9-2006 at 04:24 PM

Hey Skeet, you're just about old enough to apply to become a successor to Benedict.

Skeet Shots

MrBillM - 5-9-2006 at 05:20 PM

Wow, That's a load of "stuff" there, Skeeter.

I realize that you're a bit older than I am, but I'm no "Spring Chicken". I lived up in the big bad city (Los Angeles) up until 1970 and, while it is an ugly place at times, I somehow managed to muddle through without having the ugliness overwhelm me to the point it seems to have influenced you. I bugged out because it was just getting too danged crowded. Not knowing that Baja was where I would have been saved, I settled for Salinas, Indio and then Yucca Valley. Somehow, I managed to survive North of the border without the lying, cheating, theft, avarice and pornography destroying me. I'm glad that Baja and its indigenous saintly people and their mystical ways provided the escape you needed to remain sane. I can't say that I ever thought I was headed down the road you seemed to have been. I guess that some people handle life's difficulties better than others.

Glad you were saved, though.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-9-2006 at 06:02 PM

Mr. BillM:
sometimes as I contuine my Life as an "Adventurer" I do lose my cool over the some of the youngters of Today who have no Sirit to get out and see the world-Live every day of your Life with a "song in your Heart" Wondering what is over the next Mountain!

Sometimes it gets Rough, but Oh the feeling, Of Skiing the Cornice at Mamouth for the first time, the feeling of taking an Airplane to 10,000 Ft catching a thermal and looking at the Sierras on one side and the White Mountains on the other, the quest for fish,the meeting of a new person, where it be a Mexicano or any other Creed or color, the sighting of a herd of Tule Elk on the West coast of Vancouver Island Canada- the first visit to San Javier Mission out of LOreto- Watching a mile of Yellowtail on top of the Water in the Sea of Cortez--diving at the coral Reef at Cabo Pulmo-Shark fishing with my amigos at San Nicholas--fishing the Missouri, The Galletin, the Jefferson in Montana-Living on the Olympic Pennisula with a View Hurricane Ridge on one side and The dungeness Spit on the other.

Taking a Boat to Bamfield Canada, Uculet catching Huge Halabit, catching a 32 Lb Salmmon in the Columbia river a mile from shore.

And many many other Experiences in Life--Where is the same Desire to see and experience Life--maybe the guy in the Junk looking boat trying to Sail the Sea of cortez is not to far off in his quest for Adventure, Maybe the person looking for another Culture is , just looking for a new Adventure.

Instead today we see Fear, every where we turn- Are we being taught Fear!For control of our Destiny?

'Now I am still trying that New Adventure-Attempting to get a Masters Degree and pass the GRE- Keep learning, keep experiencing Life!!

Nothing ventured, Nothing Gained

Skeet/Loreto
Maybe better to be Anon The Preacher this time!!

"In God I Trust"

TMW - 5-9-2006 at 06:35 PM

This may sound harsh or even cruel, but the very thing that Ned Crouch points out as differences and what most of us like about Baja and Mexicans is the reason Mexico will never be more than a 3rd world country. They will never have a true middle class of people. Maybe I'm wrong and if so explain why.

villadelfin - 5-9-2006 at 07:01 PM

um skeet, what IS a metache.

Larry, I have been in La Paz way shorter than you but I see a definite middle class. Look at the people who flock to Applebees as a special occasion destination and how full the Cineopolis is. Have you checked out the price of popcorn?

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by villadelfin]

bancoduo - 5-9-2006 at 08:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by villadelfin
um skeet, what IS a metache.

Larry, I have been in La Paz way shorter than you but I see a definite middle class. Look at the people who flock to Applebees as a special occasion destination and how full the Cineopolis is. Have you checked out the price of popcorn?

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by villadelfin]
OMG Applebees in La Paz. What happened to Baja?:(:(:(:(:(

The Sculpin - 5-9-2006 at 08:28 PM

Ahhhh MrBill, I agree with you! But what you say reminds me of the early '50's anthropologists that felt they could "observe" a society without their presence influencing that society. I agree with you that you should keep to the mores and customs that fit for you, but it's funny how after a time the culture and mores of baj start to creep into your own. How many times have you looked at baja life and said "well shazaam....now that's a nifty way of doing that. I'll try it!"

I also think that skeeters is right. While I don't share the visceral quality of his experiences, I do know it's damn hard to raise kids in today's enviornment. Today's parents have to be on their kids so much more than our parents had to be on us. Baja used to be a refuge for us, where our kids could have similar experiences as we had here in the states. But the same influences you see in the US are now in baja, and it's not so much a refuge anymore.......sigh........

Skeet/Loreto - 5-10-2006 at 12:04 AM

Villadelfin:

Go on the board and ask Jesse.
It is better understood if you are looking at the person, for there is a sign with the fingers that go with it.
If you are not satisfied with Jesse's explaintion, then I will give the description and sign as I have learned.

Skeet/Loreto

Baja Bernie - 5-10-2006 at 06:17 AM

Everyone should read this thread---let them sit for a week and then go back and read them again--if you can keep from laughing-- please advise how here.

Sharksbaja - 5-10-2006 at 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by The Sculpin
Ahhhh MrBill, I agree with you! But what you say reminds me of the early '50's anthropologists that felt they could "observe" a society without their presence influencing that society. the same influences you see in the US are now in baja, and it's not so much a refuge anymore.......sigh........


Funny thing how chain restaurants and the Costcos and the Walmarts dont represent a similar lifesyle perception to me of Mexicans. Though they may flock to new glitzy hoohaw, their reasons may not be what many think. The novelty of such an affair may attract a cut of the demographic pie, but realize the growth of American culture and saturation by big name corporations is inevitable and dominates the scenery. They can set up shop anywhere in the world where their data shows potential profits based on demographics. Such is the case in La Paz. Same in Cabo and Ensenada
You will see a change in consumer preference as the middle class lazes alongside the upperclass two rows over at Applebees'.

I'd say THATS influence.

villadelfin - 5-10-2006 at 10:47 AM

Skeet,

Why are we dancing around the word Metache? Can't find it anywhere. Is it a Tex-mex slang? Give a hint, or sompin will ya?
Is it spelled correctly?

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by villadelfin]

Skeet/Loreto - 5-10-2006 at 02:02 PM

O.K. I thoust that jesse would jump in and we would get the mexican Version! and Yes it could be spelled incorrectly!

"Metche"" Mean that another person speaks with a "Forked Tongue" and therefore is not Trustworthy--the Second and Third finger of yourHand is held to your lips-Pointed outward in case you do not want to Speak outloud.

Another thing about the mexican people is that if "One man Speaks for another" it is the same as saying I stand in his Position- kind of like when a Mexican says " Ah Si Ah Si and rotates his Hand.

It is better explained in Person.

metiche

flyfishinPam - 5-11-2006 at 02:43 PM

metiche can be translated as being a "busybody" I think everyone can understand that.

Bruce R Leech - 5-11-2006 at 04:46 PM

Metiche is the correct spelling and that word is vary common in everyday language here in Mulege. it means just what Skeet wrote. kind of a smooth talking liar. or it is the perfect word to use when you want to describe a Lawyer

Bruce R Leech - 5-11-2006 at 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
Metiche is the correct spelling and that word is vary common in everyday language here in Mulege. it means just what Skeet wrote. kind of a smooth talking liar. or it is the perfect word to use when you want to describe a Lawyer


I'm bemused to see it used in that context-- my experience agrees with Pam's translation, "busybody". Comes from verb "meter," with someone poking their nose into others' business...

I've never gotten a sense of "liar" from the term. You've experienced that?

--Larry


it covers a whole rang of things such as Flem flam person. and many others . nose into others' business...is correct also. I think it changes with different areas.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-12-2006 at 03:53 PM

i just met and talked with a Mexicano from the mainland south of Tonalla.We discussed the use of the 2 fingers placed to the Mouth: He reported that in his Area it it used when some one "butts into your converstion" with out being ask to Join.

He also stated that it's meaning varies in different parts of Mexico, somtimes depending on the amount of "Indian" in your background, as well as the Location{such as the Mountains of Durango or the Mountains around San Javier.

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"