BajaNomad

Baja and trash bags

Frank - 7-4-2006 at 09:02 AM

My last trip south I had a buddy from Kansas with me. There was the normal ooohs and ahhs as we traveled down. The one question he asked that has been sticking in my mind is why is there so much trash blowing everywhere? The city dump is right off the road and uncovered, it also seems no one likes to use a trash bag.

I need a better reply to the question.

elgatoloco - 7-4-2006 at 09:04 AM

It's a cultural thing.

Frank

Baja Bernie - 7-4-2006 at 11:26 AM

Go to search and type inn plastic bags or trash bags. You will get enough information to fill a 33 gallon trash bag.

Capt. George - 7-4-2006 at 11:29 AM

culture my ass, it's a "lazy" thing...

we had before Lady Bird did such a great job with her "Clean Up America Campaign

elgatoloco - 7-4-2006 at 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. George
culture my burro, it's a "lazy" thing...


When I visit a foreign country and I witness a particular behavior that I may personally find disgusting,rude, or otherwise, I am prone to declare that it is a 'cultural' thing.

As Bernie pointed out there has been much interesting discussion about this subject of trash in Baja on this forum.

It NEVER ceases to amaze (and disgust) me when I am ANYWHERE and come across trash. Lady Bird's efforts to educate did help in the USA. There is hope.

Dave - 7-4-2006 at 02:09 PM

Plastic garbage bags cost money. ;D

Frank - 7-4-2006 at 03:21 PM

Thanks Ill do some searching...

pappy - 7-5-2006 at 02:58 PM

i thought they grew them on ranches there in san quintin!

i bet if they put a $ on them for recycling there would be a lot less of them floating around...

Frank - 7-5-2006 at 03:06 PM

Thats funny pappy thats exactly what I thought they were doing with them. Once my buddy pointed it out, it was all I could see.

flyfishinPam - 7-5-2006 at 06:11 PM

Its definately a lazy thing like George pointed out. I remember just before the "Pitch In" campaign in the 70's everyone tossed their garbage out the car window and never thought anything about it. Also I remember some states were cleaner than others. We'd drive from CT west and see dirtier states in OH, IN, IL, etc then it would look cleaner again. Dad took us on lots of road trips.

They are educating the kids in school not to litter and sometimes a kid gets the message. I repremand my kids when they throw a wrapper on the ground or toss something out the window. If I'm not in a hurry I pull over and make them pick it up. I don't give a rats ass if their friends do it, mine aren't allowed.

another thing is dogs runnign loose in the streets etc. The dogs get into trash cans, overturn them looking for food and garbage everywhere. If its windy it gets blown all over. I have my place in the desert and in the winter the winds are strong and anything that isn't nailed down blows all over the place especially those plastic handle bags. Nice thing is they really don't last but a few weeks in the strong sun as they disintegrate pretty fast. I sure would like to see less marketing and selling of non retournable beer bottles, they're everywhere.

bajaden - 7-5-2006 at 10:44 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, but its about freedom. The freedom to be clean or dirty. The freedom to drive fast or slow. The freedom to shoot off fireworks that would never be allowed in the US. The freedom to put your trash in a container and have it picked up, or just go somewhere and dump it. Freedom's that we used to have and lost. The freedom to be stupid and make wrong decisions. The freedom to have an accident and have it be called an accident instead of a crime.
Don't get me wrong. I understand why in the US we restricted some of those freedoms for the benefit and the safety of all the people. But there is a fine line between where the need of the greater good and the need of the indiviual becomes blurred. These people still have the choice to make the wrong or right decision, and we judge them. With a little luck, we can incourage them to turn baja into a place we never would have come to.

I know I'm being extreme, and on purpose. But if I want to ride my motorcycle out into the desert without a helmet, I can. Stupid I know, but thats what freedom is all about. Can't stand the trash out there though. Somebody's got to do something about that

Frank - 7-5-2006 at 11:12 PM

Quote:

Can't stand the trash out there though. Somebody's got to do something about that


:lol:Thats what I was talking about. BTW thanks for everyones input.

Bruce R Leech - 7-6-2006 at 06:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaden
Don't take this the wrong way, but its about freedom. The freedom to be clean or dirty. The freedom to drive fast or slow. The freedom to shoot off fireworks that would never be allowed in the US. The freedom to put your trash in a container and have it picked up, or just go somewhere and dump it. Freedom's that we used to have and lost. The freedom to be stupid and make wrong decisions. The freedom to have an accident and have it be called an accident instead of a crime.
Don't get me wrong. I understand why in the US we restricted some of those freedoms for the benefit and the safety of all the people. But there is a fine line between where the need of the greater good and the need of the indiviual becomes blurred. These people still have the choice to make the wrong or right decision, and we judge them. With a little luck, we can incourage them to turn baja into a place we never would have come to.

I know I'm being extreme, and on purpose. But if I want to ride my motorcycle out into the desert without a helmet, I can. Stupid I know, but thats what freedom is all about. Can't stand the trash out there though. Somebody's got to do something about that


I understand what you are getting at here Den and I agree with you. It is to bad people cant do the right thing with out an act of Congress that always steps on some ones toes.

National Flower

sanfelipebob - 7-6-2006 at 07:34 AM

Plastic bags as witnesses in the brush along the side of the roads in Baja, have come to be identified as the national flower of Mexico !

Osprey - 7-6-2006 at 07:45 AM

Bajaden, "when the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers." If you get in a car in Florida and drive to Alaska you will (like it or not) be protected by a zillions laws of the land. You'll also be subject to an even larger number of injunctions that might take away your freedom. Can you say "litigation"? I'll take the old fashioned way. I'll take the Mexican way.

Bruce R Leech - 7-6-2006 at 08:12 AM

Osprey for President:tumble:

Bajaden

Baja Bernie - 7-6-2006 at 08:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaden
With a little luck, we can encourage them to turn Baja into a place we never would have come to.



Boy! You have really hit a chord with me and you are exactly right. We want Baja to be the way it was 50 years ago with more fish than anyone could catch--little stores that never heard of a bag much less a plastic one--etc. Then we indirectly import our culture and wham--they are lazy.


Osprey you are also so right about the laws in the states.

Heck! I have been told that the State of California adds 5,000 new laws a year. I have been inquiring about this for over a year and no one seems to know the exact number, but with each new law our freedom is restricted a bit more.
What is really sad is the young folks don't even know how much freedom Americans USED to have.

wilderone - 7-6-2006 at 08:58 AM

Ah freedom. Freedom to throw garbage out your car window. Freedom to dump truck loads of urchin shells on the side of the road to rot and stink. Freedom to pollute streams with raw sewage; to toss that beer can, water bottle, baby diaper, toilet paper in every single spot you eat or drink or rest or picnic; freedom to toss that plastic oil can on an island in the Gulf. Mexicans have the freedom when, upon seeing a boulder or stone cliff, they spray paint it, throw and break a bottle against it, then leave their potato chip bag and cigarette butt on the ground. For whatever reason trash is strewn EVERYWHERE -- and the broken glass EVERYWHERE -- it isn't because white man created plastic bags, beer and diapers. We in the US also have freedom, but because mankind is so incredibly stupid, we have laws too.

the mexico

pacificobob - 7-6-2006 at 09:24 AM

trash situation was far worse 20 years ago. ....better 40 years ago. as countries develop and begin to use containers for things purchased...trash develops... for example, 35 years ago in belize there was a total lack of litter, then...as they got containers, litter appeared....now they have developed land fills and a cultural preference for less trash.....do you remember the usa of the 50s?...lots trash...litter wasnt even word yet!.....as some of you may recall....plastic bage existed in mexico several years before the came into use in the usa. (early 70s as i remember)

I am with Wilderone on this subject--------

Barry A. - 7-6-2006 at 09:43 AM

---------I do not feel in the least constricted here in the USA, and I have been around for a long time. Most of the new laws make sense to me, and I am a flaming Conservative.

Yes, I originally went to Baja because it felt like my fantasy of the frontier west, and I miss that feeling, but the Baja of today is sorta out of control, IMHO-----------and there are dozens of "theories" as to why that happens.

But the "theory" that boggles my mind the most is the excuses for littering---------there are no excuses for littering------------it is called "soiling your own nest" and it is sub-human behavior, IMHO.

Cincodemayo - 7-6-2006 at 10:24 AM

You want trash? When I was in Bali there were plastic bags everywhere...rivers, streets,sidewalks,next to garbage cans...The main perpetrators were the Balinese! Walked by a big tour bus on the way to a waterfall and the Balinese bus driver was sweeping all the garbage out of the bus into the street and left it blowing in the wind! I was amazed at the gall in his own country....Doubt in all my travels to Mexico that I've ever seen a local Mexican ever pick up any trash that has been on the ground unless it was an employee of a hotel or restaurant. Outside of their employment forget it....it will blow into the wind. Pretty sad that they can't have any self worth to make things better for even their enjoyment and envoirnment.
Here in Washington State and I'm sure many other states, companies adopt stretches of freeway and highways, the employees get out on their own time and clean all the trash off the landscape and the state comes to pick up all the piles of bags. That's the way it should be... respect the envoirnment.
We use to hike into Tahquitz Falls in Palm Springs with beer and wine and always pack out the empties but would continually find empty crap all over and pack it out too....they can carry it all in full but leave the trash for others. LOSERS!!!

Al G - 7-6-2006 at 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
---------I do not feel in the least constricted here in the USA, and I have been around for a long time. Most of the new laws make sense to me, and I am a flaming Conservative.

Yes, I originally went to Baja because it felt like my fantasy of the frontier west, and I miss that feeling, but the Baja of today is sorta out of control, IMHO-----------and there are dozens of "theories" as to why that happens.

But the "theory" that boggles my mind the most is the excuses for littering---------there are no excuses for littering------------it is called "soiling your own nest" and it is sub-human behavior, IMHO.
Text

Right on Barry I lived through the US dirty period, and I will live through Baja's. I see the laws protecting all, as a much more important freedom. Enough said!

bajaden - 7-6-2006 at 01:13 PM

As I said. Pick your poison. An inperfect world occupied by imperfect people. Current company excluded of course. Excuse me, gotta go put out the trash.

DanO - 7-6-2006 at 01:14 PM

My dad loves to tell this story:

In the early 80s, he spent a couple of years sailing up and down the SOC, picking up tourists for a few bucks here and there. At the end of one trip, he was registering with the Capitano del Puerto in La Paz. My dad took his carefully collected trash with him to meet the officer of the Capitano's office, so he could dispose of it there. When my dad inquired about where to get rid of it, the officer told him he'd take care of it, picked it up, walked out to the water and threw it in.

Anyway, I can't make blanket assertions. Over this past holiday weekend at La Bocana, we saw plenty of folks leaving trash and plenty of others packing it out.

Bajaden

Baja Bernie - 7-6-2006 at 05:45 PM

We are still on the same page--I vote for an inperfect world with inperfect people.

I rather doubt that even those people who pass the laws know or understand what they mean and what they are intended to do--Example now the littering laws in California carry a fine of $1,000.00. How many cops do you believe are CS enough to write a ticket for littering when they know that it will cause someone to be subject to losing a thousand bucks from his two or three thousand monthly salary. Not many and that is why we are seeing a rise in littering on our freeways in Southern California--its not plastic bags but sofas etc.

Oh! Yeah Take a look at the beaches in San Diego and points north after a holiday--I have seen nothing like that in Baja--ever! Sub human indeed!

David K - 7-6-2006 at 05:54 PM

I am wondering if the sofas, etc. are more an example of less and less dumps (landfills) that are within easy driving distance and/ or the price they charge to dump at these 'public' landfills?

I think Mexico will soon catch up... as I remember the 60's enough to know we gringos used to throw trash out the car windows pretty heavily....

Then came "give a hoot, don't pollute" and the crying Indian...

David

Baja Bernie - 7-6-2006 at 06:12 PM

You have a point about available dumps and the cost. But how many true dumps do you know of in Baja. I'm not talking about the "self serve" arroyos that flush out to sea after each big rain. Real dumps with Cats to cover the stuff ect.

Bernie-----

Barry A. - 7-6-2006 at 06:47 PM

Every cop that I worked with would have loved to catch a litterer, and cited him NOW----------they are extremely hard to catch--------we did try tho, and occasionally we caught them. The fine should be $2000, and in some places it is. Nothing CS about it.

I can guarantee you that I would arrest anyone caught littering, if I had them dead to rights, and if I could articulate that I thought they would do it again.

Barry

David K - 7-6-2006 at 08:30 PM

It is the cost of a cat Bernie... that seems to be what keeps most towns from operating a landfill.

Maybe the next Rosario festival could raise money for one for that otherwise beautiful place!

Mango - 7-6-2006 at 10:41 PM

The first time I went to Mexico I took a bus from Mexicali to Mazatlan. I was amazed at the amount of plastic bags strewn throughout the northern deserts.

Over my years of travels throughout Mexico I have often thought about the all the trash throughout the countryside, the reasons for it, and the solutions.

On that first trip I took the train from Puebla to Oaxaca. During the 10 hour train trip I befriended a 21 year old university student on his way home. After eating or drinking he would simply throw his trash out the window. I knew that was the "norm" but I refused to throw my trash out the window and wedged it between my seat and the wall. He asked me why I did not throw it out. I said it was very pretty outside and I did not want to litter. Towards the end of the trip my newfound friend finished a soda... and kept the empty bottle with him. I like to think he realized that I cared about the earth, his country, and respected both enough not to litter. I also like to think that he "changed" a little for the better.

Plastic has been around for only 40 years or so. Mostly it has been the last 20 years that it has really taken hold there in the form of bottles and bags. Historically, most refuse or trash that was produced in Mexican towns was organic in nature. (tortillas, paper, wood, fruit, etc.) In the past the trash decomposed, today some of it waits 40,000 years.

There was and is no official trash service in most rural mexican towns and villages. Often people simply discard the trash, let the dogs scrounge on it, and burn it when the pile gets high enough. In the past when trash was brought to the local dump or burned it simply went "away" This is how it has been done in Mexico for centuries. A town will dump their trash in an arroyo and it "magically" dissapears during the next rainy season. Problem solved, unless you live downstream.

These methods are tried and true methods of dealing with trash. Even today there is no better way in many areas. You can put your soda bottle in the trash can in the plaza and it will wind up in the arroyo the next day. Do you want your trash here, or over there?

It is not that the society is inherently dirty or lazy. They just have no other alternitive in many cases. Most large Mexican cities are very clean in the central areas. The streets are swept, the sidewalks are washed, and landscaping cared for. The poor areas on the outskirts of town are usually a different story.

Today, the biggest problem with trash disposal in Mexico is the lack of official dumps, no offical trucks to take trash to the dumps, and the cost to the average citizen. Why would someone who is very poor pay somebody to truck the trash away when they could just dump it at the edge of town/road for free? The root of the problem is cultural and introduction of non-biodegradable trash... the current problem is economics and education.

Alas.. onto plastic bags. I think we see so many because they are light and blow around the countryside, fly into the air and stick into bushes and trees(unlike bottles and cans), and are of a light color and highly noticeable.

I think plastic bags and bottles suck. I hate the smell of burning plastic like no other. If I were in charge everyone would be drinking out of glass like the old days and you'd have to bring your own bag.. so you'd better not let it fly out of your truck on the highway.

David K - 7-6-2006 at 11:03 PM

Well stated Mango... Welcome to Nomad!

Frank - 7-6-2006 at 11:48 PM

Ahhh I think we have a winner, Mango.

Osprey - 7-7-2006 at 07:11 AM

Small pueblos face trash problems that are hard to see. We have a landfill, 2 big trucks, garbage crews who do an admirable job, are paid by the village. The service is free. The reason the service is free is that there is no way to make a charge -- the village eats the expense because they understand that complication. The homeowners have no incentive to pay anyone to haul off their garbage. If homeowners don't pay for services (water, electric, taxes) they lose the service or face fines or both but with garbage it would just lay in the street until somebody took action. Here there are no house numbers, no mail delivery, no mail pickup, no checks, no paypoint so, over time, they got the picture, worked it out --- free, fast, courteous pickup. Some of us villagers drive the 6 miles to the dump at times to "lighten the load". Most gringos give nice propinas at Xmas to the crews and I've made more than one trip to city hall to thank them for the service.

Natalie Ann - 7-7-2006 at 07:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Jorge
About the plastic "trash" bags. Everyone in Mexico knows those are really rainsuits.


Some folks in US know that also:

Baja Bernie - 7-7-2006 at 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally

It is not that the society is inherently dirty or lazy. They just have no other alternitive in many cases. Most large Mexican cities are very clean in the central areas. The streets are swept, the sidewalks are washed, and landscaping cared for. The poor areas on the outskirts of town are usually a different story.

Today, the biggest problem with trash disposal in Mexico is the lack of official dumps, no offical trucks to take trash to the dumps, and the cost to the average citizen. Why would someone who is very poor pay somebody to truck the trash away when they could just dump it at the edge of town/road for free? The root of the problem is cultural and introduction of non-biodegradable trash... the current problem is economics and education.

.


Mango,

Welcome, You said it very nicely! I also dislike the plastic stuff that society is drowning itself in. What to do? San Fransisco is talking about a tax of 17cents on each market shopping bag (plastic). I don't know the answer--but--labeling the Mexicans as sub human just does not cut it with me.

Natalie Ann - 7-7-2006 at 10:13 AM

Charles Tucker's former housekeeper Isabel did not like litter. She had a special way with plastic bags.... folded them origami style into the teensiest little box shapes, all tucked and neat at the corners. She then put those in a special drawer to save. Used to drive Charles nuts.

About once a month, Charles would clean out that drawer and send all the little plastic boxes to the dump. I suspect it takes those tightly folded bags a longer time to decompose than it takes when they are full open to the elements.

jerry - 7-7-2006 at 10:42 AM

i think this is a culturl thing its been going on for a log time i dont think the mexicans are sub human i just think they need to be educatied as to how litter effects them directly
i dont think they give littering a second thought .as time and education goes on the problem will take care of itself.
in the states not too many years ago before the deposit on can and bottles and before plastic bags we had the same problems
once it was brought to our attention the bottle bills were passed and now we have the water bottles to deal with and they will be delt with one way or the other we will get educated by the allmighty $buck$

and in mexico i think it will happen the same way. its hard to believe that they just recently started making disposable beer bottles , no deposit no return .a big step backwords. but perhaps it will make the problem wide spread and bad enoff that a over all action will be taken. either way it will be money that will solve the problem and educate the people
have a good one

Mexicans are NOT sub-human------

Barry A. - 7-7-2006 at 11:11 AM

------and I never said they were. This statement above by Bernie is a mis-representation of what I DID say. I said, "people that litter are acting sub-human" i.e. "soiling their own nest" (like an animal??). Many Mexicans that I know do not litter----many others apparently do, as is true with all races and cultures.

I believe that Mango's ideas on littering are valid, and well thought out, but I still believe that litterers are ACTING in a sub-human way (animal like), but I can partially except that some may have little choice, in the instances cited by Mango.

In the California town my son lives in, there is no formal trash collection--------everybody hauls their own trash to the dump, 3 miles away, and they have to pay to dump tho it is not much. There is practically no litter in town, or around town in the surrounding desert. It can be done.

going to repost this here because it seems to apply

Bruce R Leech - 7-7-2006 at 11:15 AM

are they acting sub human or just out of the normal for society as you know it?:?:

you know it is a funny thing about society and the way we live and the rules that we live under. a wise man once told me that nothing is wrong until someone says it is wrong. how dose that apply here? well if you live in a society where every one thoughts there garbage down were ever they are and you don't then you are the odd ball. until a few years ago most Bajaicans thought they were beatifying the desert when they painted the rocks along the Highway

Bruce------------

Barry A. - 7-7-2006 at 11:27 AM

---------are you implying (saying??) that it is "normal" for some humans to live in trash???? simply because they don't know that it is not "right"? Then how can you explain the dozens of ranchos in the back country that are essentially litter-free, and have been that way since I first started going down into Baja in the late 40's? Are these vaqueros "odd"? or are they at peace with there surroundings? I think they are at peace with their surroundings, unlike the folks that litter.

I repeat------some things are OBVIOUS, and have nothing to do with laws, to most folks. Not littering is one of them.

Bruce R Leech - 7-7-2006 at 11:40 AM

Barry A that is not what I'm trying to say at all. I know I'm not a very good writer but I hope if you read my post very carefully and with a open mind you will get some thing entirely deferent out of it. If you read it with a closed mind or if I really did a bad job off it then you will come up with something like what you wrote above . in that case I will try again.:?:

ether way I am sorry.

bajaden - 7-7-2006 at 11:41 AM

Barry, Barry, Barry. I know you mean well, but number one, the amount of trash a ranch creates is considerably less than a town would create. What do you think the indians did with their trash? Opps, scratch that, they didn't have beer bottles and plastic bags did they..
Whats available to the people of baja has increased over the years and the means to dispose of it hasn't. It will take time, but they will catch up and change some of thier habits. I guess I just don't like the word subhuman attached in any way to the people of baja. Just rubs me the wrong way.

I don't want to import every law and rule that was the norm in california and turn baja into the very place that I fled from. Do I want liter? NO! But lets leave the people of this land to figure out the way to control their own problems. If they ask for help, then help. Otherwise just enjoy life.

Bruce R Leech - 7-7-2006 at 12:05 PM

If you go back in time far enough you will usually find a eureka moment for almost everything. for example at one time it was OK to kill anyone that was not in your own clan. and if you go back even further it was OK to kill someone in your own clan.

in some societies it has been OK to have as many wives as you wanted and you could steel them from others if they had Les power than you.

OK, OK, OK, you guys----------

Barry A. - 7-7-2006 at 12:50 PM

I will back off for now, but I still think what I think, and it is aimed at ALL litterers, in every society. I am NOT picking on the Mexicans---------just those that litter, EVERYWHERE!!

By the way, if somebody comes into my house uninvited in the middle of the night I will shoot them, and have no qualms about it. Perhaps that is barbaric, so I guess I am NOT perfect.

Still, Nobody in MY family EVER littered, as far as I know-----it was a sin to litter, and still is.

I will stand in the shadows, now--------no matter how many take pot-shots at my rantings.

Doug/Vamonos - 7-7-2006 at 02:29 PM

I can't tell you how many times I have been on a beautiful beach in Baja and had mexican families visit for a day at the beach. The trash they leave behind is unbelievable. They make no effort whatsoever to leave a clean camp. That's my first-hand experience. And Barry, you kill somebody like that and you're a murderer. Period. Call it self defense if you want, but unless they endanger your life it's murder. Doesn't matter if you're a cop or just a plain ole' redneck with a gun. See ya.

Doug-------

Barry A. - 7-7-2006 at 02:38 PM

--------I am not a mind reader---------there is no way that I know what the "intruders" intentions are, but I am positive that it is not good, and that it is illegal----------I do not allow some "intruder" to put my family in danger, period, when I can prevent it---------but of course I have to be able to articulate my conclusion that he was a life-threatening danger to someone----------then, that is not murder, by definition.

What would you do???

DanO - 7-7-2006 at 02:41 PM

Forget about that, I want to talk about the multiple wives thing. Maybe I'm missing something, but I could never understand why anyone would want more than one wife.

Barry has it right on both points !!!!!

beercan - 7-7-2006 at 03:54 PM

Littering is a sin !! I don't mind telling people when I catch them and I hate litterbugs.

Now what is this about two wives???
Quote:
by Barry
By the way, if somebody comes into my house uninvited in the middle of the night I will shoot them, and have no qualms about it. Perhaps that is barbaric, so I guess I am NOT perfect.

Where the heck have you people been....

Sharksbaja - 7-7-2006 at 09:23 PM

or not been is more the case. Take a look at the hollers of Kentuc5ky or the poor suburbs of many southern states. Every home or squaler has it's own dump. I saw piles of household crap dumped all over the logging roads till they gated them. Now the forest service roads get the desperados. It's a poverty and education thang doncha know. It's not just Bajas' problem and like said months ago; when it becomes a valuable piece of property for sale, it WILL be cleaned up, duh.:yes:
Why would Mexicans want to clean up the mess.... of someone else.:?:

bajaden - 7-8-2006 at 09:34 AM

es claro....... By the way, Barry, I wasn't taking pot shots at you. I know your very passionate about what you beleive. Thats cool... Me tooooooo....

Thanks once again Sharky for your infinite wisdom and impecable clarity. Now back to taking out the trash....:lol::lol:

wilderone - 7-10-2006 at 10:15 AM

Bruce, I don't believe you really believe what you wrote. "Jose con Maria" or "Jose - 1992" spray painted on a boulder in a unique desert landscape with ancient pictographs, a flowing stream and indigenous fan palms is not "beautifying" it - it was already the most beautiful desert landscape on earth, and it was desecrated and marred by ignorant fools. I think "No Tire Basura" provides a clue that graffitti is not acceptable.

"a wise man once told me that nothing is wrong until someone says it is wrong." That is nonsense. Each person has the ability to think for themselves and make a conscious, deliberate decision based on their inherent free will, which separates us from animals. But if you must follow the teachings of a wise man, instead of thinking for yourself in this instance, then we're telling you it's wrong to litter and despoil public places and natural, public land. So that IS the new paradigm, and as a responsible citizen you need to do your part. In our city we have beach cleanup days, we have neighborhood cleanup days every other weekend, we have canyon cleanup days. In Lake Tahoe there are lake cleanup days. The Surfrider Foundation had over 1,000 volunteers to clean up San Diego's beaches after the 4th of July. These community events foster the idea that littering is wrong and gets everyone involved and gets the job done. A little leadership will go a long way.

How about some new civic pride? I bet if there were a community meeting addressing the problem, some creative ideas for a fiesta afterward, a big bonfire burning the trash, separating recyclables for pick-up by someone who is willing; sponsorship by some company or entity who will donate trash bags and pay 25 cents for every bag of trash turned in (Tecate or Coca-Cola, Bimbo); you could turn things around in a hurry. I'll bet you could get several sponsorships from US entities who promote trash pickup and recycling to help, including many travelers from the US who would come down to lend a hand just to join in the party afterward, maybe be offered a discount room rate at a hotel as an incentive In short, embrace the NEW - not be subjected to the standards of the past, where it simply doesn't work or make sense any longer.

Bruce R Leech - 7-10-2006 at 12:05 PM

wilderone you missed the point completely:?: believe me I don't through trash or paint rocks.:spingrin: and I agree with your ecovalues . but for you to disagree with what I wrote with out understanding what I was trying to say doesn't make sense.:?: