BajaNomad - TIME FOR QUIT CLAIM DEED FOR ALL MEXICO

TIME FOR QUIT CLAIM DEED FOR ALL MEXICO

Capt. George - 7-7-2006 at 04:13 PM

I think now is the time to begin forming a group of Norte Americano property holders (& tax payers) to petition the Mexican gov't on our behalf for simple deed transfer.

We need to be treated with the respect all property purchasers receive in the rest of the civilized world. Mexico, if you do not want to sell water front properties, don't!

I'm tired of all the whining about this situation while we continue to do nothing. It is unfair to us as the incredible assett we are to Mexico's and Bajas economy.

A Mexican in the U.S. of A. can buy, own and pass along any property, anywhere in the states (waterfront included) that he has the finances to purchase. The time has come to have a reciprical propert transfer from Mexico (Mr. Bill, check speling pleeze)

Please let me know what you theeeenk. I no longer have holdings, although Deborah does. This is simply a bunch of crap that needs to be addressed enmasse. (Mr. Bill?)

Time to get what we've earned! Kapt. George, Amerika

Bruce R Leech - 7-7-2006 at 05:22 PM

that reminds me of a couple years ago a bunch of foreigners here got mad and started a petition because there is now bank in Mulege. when one of them asked me to sign it I asked him who he was going to give it to when he got it all signed up? he got a very funny look on his face and went away. :lol:

ROTFLMAO!

DanO - 7-7-2006 at 05:30 PM

Great idea Cap'n. And after we do that, let's all have a big plastic cup of warm grape kool-aid and go lay down for a little permanent nap.

Seriously (if that's how this was intended, and I have my doubts), the amount of transfer and property taxes paid by Norteamericanos in Mexico is insignificant in comparison to, say, revenues from oil, manufacturing, service industries, tourism, or foreign remittances from Mexicans living in the U.S. Incidentally, the majority of U.S. foreign direct investment in Mexico is in the manufacturing and financial sectors, not housing -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico.

Simply put, Americans leasing or purchasing property through fideicomiso in Mexico's restricted zones are not, relatively speaking, an "incredible asset" to the country of Mexico. Mexico's most incredible asset is the foreign remittances it gets from Mexicans living in the U.S., which contribute more to Mexico's gross domestic product than the Mexicans working in Mexico. At most, we are an incredible asset to the landowners with whom we do business.

[Edited on 7-8-2006 by DanO]

Capt. George - 7-7-2006 at 06:04 PM

Baja Amigo, Baja

are not the landholders in Baja Mexicano's ?

Play Ostrich all you want, but you know they're porking
*******************************************

Oh, by the way, I hope you enjoy the kool-aid, count me out Rev Jones.

Tourism and property sales greatest GNP for Baja...

[Edited on 7-8-2006 by BajaNomad]

Oso - 7-7-2006 at 07:07 PM

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion." --Dean Inge :rolleyes:

Oso - 7-7-2006 at 07:09 PM

BTW, for a small fee I'll give you a quit claim deed for anywhere in Mexico you like. :spingrin:

Al G - 7-7-2006 at 07:23 PM

Nothing personal, but that quote reeks of a defeatist attitude.
in the entire history of mankind nothing has ever changed without some form of objection.
I do not live in Baja yet, and some people would say I should not have an opinion. I can not help myself so the least we should do is teach by example.

Bruce R Leech - 7-7-2006 at 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
BTW, for a small fee I'll give you a quit claim deed for anywhere in Mexico you like. :spingrin:

now that is the Mexican way :lol:

longlegsinlapaz - 7-7-2006 at 08:24 PM

Capt. George
I think that's an excellent idea, but I doubt you'd find anyone in the Mexican Government to find any merit in it! I've wondered the same thing, personally, I feel the fideicomiso is just another way to get $$ out of "rich" gringos. I agree completely that we bring a LOT of revenue into Mexico.

DanO, property taxes are the least of what we add to the economy! I have built 2 homes in the past 6 years, which means the $$ to purchase the land, the $$ for labor & materials, Seguro Social for the workers, everytime I go to the hardware store, or shop for food or clothing, the parking ticket I just payed for parking in a non-signed "red" zone (they're GOING to get around to painting it red soon!), the utilities I pay, my home & automobile insurance, every meal I eat out, every time I take my dogs to the vet, each doctor, dentist, or optomotrist appointment, when I get my hair cut, buy gas, oil, or get my car tuned up....to the best of my knowledge every centavo that I spend in Mexico in some way, shape, or form goes into the Mexican economy....be it directly into the pocket of the taco vendor or the Federal Government. In home construction & associated costs alone, I have personally infused in the neighborhood of half a million USD into the Mexican economy. And I am NOT a "rich" gringo by any means!

Granted more USD most likely come into the country via Mexicans working either legally or illegally in the USA, but I don't think that you took into account how many American, Canadian & other nationalities live here full time, versus the week-end warriors or the people who are still working themselves into a grave that can only spend 2-4 weeks a year down here. I feel that the full-timers here ARE PART of the economy!!

If the US Government wasn't doing such an embarassingly abysmal job on addressing the illegal immigrant issue, I'd say this would be a good petition to submit to WA, DC to use as a major international negotiation point! Both Governments HAVE to be talking about the illegals in the USA, I doubt there is much conversation about the legals in Mexico! Might not be a bad topic to toss on the table!!

Bajaboy - 7-7-2006 at 09:11 PM

I actually read an op/ed in the Wall Street Journal a few months back about this exact issue. The writer stated that there is a movement within the power base to change the Constitution to allow foreign land ownership. The writer argued that for Mexico to attract foreign capital, it must change its land ownership laws to reflect worldwide land ownership practices. If I recall, the writer also addressed the need to open industries to outside capital as well.

I haven't heard much since though.

Zac

bajalou - 7-7-2006 at 09:39 PM

Land ownership is open for all except in the restricted zone 50k fromthe beach 100k from a border. Everywhere else you can just buy the land.

Bad move

Dave - 7-7-2006 at 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
If the US Government wasn't doing such an embarassingly abysmal job on addressing the illegal immigrant issue, I'd say this would be a good petition to submit to WA, DC to use as a major international negotiation point!

Our government would prefer that their citizens reside, buy property and pay taxes in the U.S. It could care less about the trials and tribulations of gringos who decide to make Mexico their home. If/when Mexico decides to expropriate gringo property don't look to Uncle Sammy for support. He could care less.

Al G - 7-7-2006 at 10:11 PM

With all due respect buddy the conversation is solely about coastal land. I think most of us could not care less about border land and few about the interior. really the real issue is who has the intensity of desire to take action.

Capt. George - 7-8-2006 at 04:23 AM

I think, once the new Presidente is in office, someone( a Nomad) with a better grasp of the language could begin to draft a petition.

If we all had a starting point, we could all add to it, get signatures throughout Baja and have it presented to the Gov't. I have a friend who is close to a very powerful man in Mexico, one of the wealthiest. He may be able to assist..

Any more ideas out there?? I think we have a shot, if we get organized and united.... george

Bruce R Leech - 7-8-2006 at 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
The writer argued that for Mexico to attract foreign capital, it must change its land ownership laws to reflect worldwide land ownership practices. If I recall, the writer also addressed the need to open industries to outside capital as well.

I haven't heard much since though.

Zac

I don't think Mexico Must change anything. why should they make it easier for foreigners to buy all of the best parts of there country only to listen to them complain about the government.

who needs foreign investors anyway. why dose every one want to change Mexico. :?:

if you don't like it stay the heck to the north. :lol:

Capt. George - 7-8-2006 at 07:26 AM

Well Bruce, who's going to buy the land if not foreigners? Does that not increase the GNP of Mexico? Who wants to change Mexico? Just want the real estate treatment as received in the rest of the civilized world.

you're going off the curve...I would not change anything about my Pueblo or the way we live there..just want assurance that the land "we" pay for remains in our hands to do with as we choose.

George

Bruce R Leech - 7-8-2006 at 07:58 AM

if you want a guarantee then you are better off in Florida. I love the way Mexico is . I'm here for the adventure and uncertainty that it offers. If I could not stand the land ownership laws here I would buy in Florida where you have the best Governor and president in the world. :lol:

Dumber than Dirt

MrBillM - 7-8-2006 at 08:37 AM

That describes anyone who seriously thinks that there would be a snowball's chance in Hades of foreign residents successfully petitioning the Mexican Government to change the property ownership rules.

losfrailes - 7-8-2006 at 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
if you want a guarantee then you are better off in Florida. I love the way Mexico is . I'm here for the adventure and uncertainty that it offers. If I could not stand the land ownership laws here I would buy in Florida where you have the best Governor and president in the world. :lol:

Thats an easy statement to make. Adventure and uncertainty that life here offers. Especially in regards to land ownership.

Let me see now, you are married to a Mexican national, right? And the property you are selling or have already sold is in your name right, or could it be in your wifes name and therefore not subject to ownership problems faced by the other foreigners living here.

jerry - 7-8-2006 at 09:07 AM

when the list is assembled and sent off to the mexican government the ppl on this list could be promptly deported for for involving them selves in politics in mexico it is forbiden in the terms of your fido
but it will loosen up a little more beach front :bounce:

Paula - 7-8-2006 at 09:16 AM

(From Don using Paula's account)

One of the "benefits" of the fideocomiso system is the added income for the banks. $400 a year, per property, forever.

They would lobby against outright foreign ownership, and my guess is they have more clout with the legislature than we do.

The country's constitution bans coastal ownership, and I wonder if or when someone is going to challenge the current legislation as being a blatant attempt to circumvent the constitution. Looks that way to me. I would think that some laws can be enacted by simple legislation, but others should require amending the constitution.

Now maybe I have this all wrong and the fideo rules were included in a constitutional amendment and I read an older version of the constitution.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy what I have and hope it lasts as long as I do.

Don Alley

bajalou - 7-8-2006 at 09:20 AM

In looking around the internet, it appears that Florida residents lose more property to the governments each year via Eminent Domain procedures than property lost here in Baja.

And if you really believe you might loose your property in Mexico, why did you put money in it?

Bruce R Leech - 7-8-2006 at 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by losfrailes

Quote:

I just love it when some one like you comes on here and acts like they know every thing about my life when you have never met me and your statements above show just how willing you are to talk about something that you know nothing about :lol:

take a guess at how many of your statements about me are wrong :?:

the deferences between you and I are that I will never comment on your personal life or investments. even if I know what I'm talking about .

land ownership in Mexico is not a sure thing for Mexicans or Foreigners.

i agree with

pacificobob - 7-8-2006 at 09:45 AM

mrbill!.....ive never been to any country where that would work.

Oso - 7-8-2006 at 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
That describes anyone who seriously thinks that there would be a snowball's chance in Hades of foreign residents successfully petitioning the Mexican Government to change the property ownership rules.

Even a busted clock is right twice a day! :lol:

Not only would such action be "sumamente inutil", it is, as just pointed out, illegal. Under Mexican law, foreigners may not engage in politics, period. Now there was a successful action taken by foreign residents to defy the Mexican government about a century and a half ago... It's called Texas. From what I've seen of it, I think I'd prefer it was still Mexico. :rolleyes:

But, "cada cabeza, un mundo aparte". If enough gringo residents want to band together in a new insurgency, have at it. But... Include me out. :no:

[Edited on 7-9-2006 by Oso]

Packoderm - 7-8-2006 at 11:16 AM

About Texas, "From what I've seen of it, I think I'd prefer it was still Mexico."

Are you meaning to say that you would rather be a natural born citizen of Mexico living in Mexican Texas than a U.S. citizen living in American Texas? According to World Bank's website, approx. 50% of Mexico's people are living in poverty compared to the U.S.' 12.7% and Texas' 15.6%. http://209.198.129.135/products/fastfacts/poverty.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Bruce R Leech - 7-8-2006 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
About Texas, "From what I've seen of it, I think I'd prefer it was still Mexico."

Are you meaning to say that you would rather be a natural born citizen of Mexico living in Mexican Texas than a U.S. citizen living in American Texas? According to World Bank's website, approx. 50% of Mexico's people are living in poverty compared to the U.S.' 12.7% and Texas' 15.6%. http://209.198.129.135/products/fastfacts/poverty.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

I think you can tell by where I live what I think :lol:

Oso - 7-8-2006 at 02:11 PM

Quote:

No.

I don't want to live in Texas, period. But if it was still Mexico, then I wouldn't have to deal with "Texans". :lol:

(I'm smilin' as I say that, pardner.)

"If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell."
-Gen. W.T. Sherman

Baja Oklahoma.

MrBillM - 7-8-2006 at 04:22 PM

The best thing that ever happened to the Tejanos in Texas was the war for independence from Mexico.

As far as obeying Mexican law, the Texans were petitioning for their rights as GUARANTEED by the Mexican Constitution which General Santa Anna usurped.

I have had more than one discussion in which I have chided Mexican friends who bring up the subject of the Alamo and the war. I've said I find it comical that the Mexicans find themselves on the side of a ruthless and brutal dictator who did away with their Constitutional liberties and summarily imprisoned or killed anyone who took umbrage.

Oso - 7-8-2006 at 05:44 PM

OK, I'll amend that and substitute "government" for "law".

JESSE - 7-13-2006 at 12:44 PM

I think its a bad idea, do you guys really want this debate to go on national news and have Televisa and Azteca send their teams of reporters to show the entire nation how "Americans are buying up Mexico"? I can already see the comparisons to Texas.

Mexico is NOT prepared for that, you can either accept it, or decide not to invest. And i do agree with DanO, what ever investment is flowing into Baja is doing little to help the locals. Thats why i keep saying that if things stay the same, all you will end up with is a minority of rich people living in luxury areas, and a majority of poor people living in the hills, just like it has happened in cabo.

Capt. George - 7-13-2006 at 01:48 PM

there is no doubt that my "investments" in Punta Abreojos were shared by many.

A few got more but there was additional income in a lot of pockets. From now on, only the few dollars I spend vacationing there will be added to their economy.

BTW: I've sold my holdings in Mexico and will not invest another dime until offered the same property holding rights Mexicanos have in the United States.

Comparison to Texas? Get enough money and power brokers from the states in Baja....and the Mexican people will be making comparisons here. The situation is ethically wrong, you know it, I know it and the Mexican property owners/sellers know it.

War is war, they lost, get over it, they're lucky we didn't take it all. Bad enough in the states I had to listen to "the South will rise again"! How about the billions of dollars earned in the states, legal and illegal that flows back home to Madre??? Huge amounts of money infused into Mexicos economy, much of it made in Texas.

If Texas were not in the states, it would be just that many more poverty stricken Mexicans.

I still love Baja and will vacation there till I die or too ill to travel. My affection for the Mexican people is deep, but as Buford Pusser would say "What's right is right"!!!

As for the poor Mexicans living in the hills outside Cabo, let their government raise their minimum wage above five dollars a day. Don't blame the rich Americanos for the disgrace of the Mexican political system. Why, it's even worse then the U.S. of A.

JESSE - 7-13-2006 at 03:08 PM

I am not blaming anyone specifically, i am merely saying that wether foreigners come or go, to the locals in general, it means very little. Basically you get a bunch of money coming in from the USA, a bunch of chilangos and foreigners running here to get most of the pie, and the locals are pretty much in the same boat, except theres more people, more pollution, more traffick, and more drugs.

I understand your point of view, if i was you i would demand the same, but the reality is that except for a small minority of mostly chilangos, foreigners, and a few locals, most Baja Californians don't have any reason to sympathize with you, and their political representatives know that, so they won't change any laws anytime soon.

Thats why i keep insisting that all the millions coming in are useless unless the goverment AND the investors finds a way for the money to trickle down to the regular juan and mary on the street.

[Edited on 7-13-2006 by JESSE]

Capt. George - 7-13-2006 at 04:01 PM

Jesse

the locals "should" be sympathizing more with the gringos that are buying land and bringing jobs into their Pueblos.....who else is going to buy it? Another Mexicano? Not in my experience. I sold my lot in PA to a Mexicano/US Citizen and was very happy about that. Rare to be sure.

It is not the responsibility of the "investor" to find a way for their hard earned dollars (at least in my case) to trickle down. It is the fault of the gov't, which the people elect.

As far as more people, pollution, traffic etc., that's a worldwide problem called over population. Again magnified in Mexico by an undereducated and poor population...

Most of the problems facing Mexico and it's citizens are from within, stop blaming outside influences. It's a cop out. I worked in all the major ghettos in NYC and became so tired of the plight of the people being blamed on everything and everyone other then themselves.

Believe it or not, this is stated witth a great deal of love and caring for the Mexicanos who have shared their lives with me. But I refuse to be painted the, even a part, of Mexicos internal problems.

Capt George aka el Vikingo de Punta Abreojos

Capt. George - 7-13-2006 at 04:03 PM

"painted the villain,"

JESSE - 7-14-2006 at 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Jesse

the locals "should" be sympathizing more with the gringos that are buying land and bringing jobs into their Pueblos.....who else is going to buy it? Another Mexicano? Not in my experience. I sold my lot in PA to a Mexicano/US Citizen and was very happy about that. Rare to be sure.

It is not the responsibility of the "investor" to find a way for their hard earned dollars (at least in my case) to trickle down. It is the fault of the gov't, which the people elect.

As far as more people, pollution, traffic etc., that's a worldwide problem called over population. Again magnified in Mexico by an undereducated and poor population...

Most of the problems facing Mexico and it's citizens are from within, stop blaming outside influences. It's a cop out. I worked in all the major ghettos in NYC and became so tired of the plight of the people being blamed on everything and everyone other then themselves.

Believe it or not, this is stated witth a great deal of love and caring for the Mexicanos who have shared their lives with me. But I refuse to be painted the, even a part, of Mexicos internal problems.

Capt George aka el Vikingo de Punta Abreojos

I disagree George, how many locals own beach front property? how much of that property has any tourism value? and i think your misunderstanding me, i am not blaming American investors for the troubles here, off course i blame the goverment for the mess, but in reality, 90% of all locals do not benefit and thus, dont have any incentives to sympatize with anybody.

Also, you seem to think that locals "need" someone to buy their land, when in reality they do not, a lot of locals are getting pennies on the dollar for their properties, and sadly, they are to ignorant to understand that their properties are worth far more than what they are getting for.

My view is that if the quality of life hasnt really improved much for locals, why do they need us? and i count myself because i am from Tijuana. We come in, buy their lands, start businesses, get in the action, and leave them out, a lot of times because its their own fault i have to admit it, but getting back to my point. if you and me, and all the Mexicans from the mainland left, their lives wouldnt be much changed, yes all the imigrants would be out of work and get back to where ever they came from (including me), but the locals would still live from fishing and agriculture, and they wouldnt have to deal with the crowds, the 15usd sandwiches at Todos Santos, and having to put up with someone building a 500,000 thousand dollar home right next to your shack so you can truly see just how poor you really are.

They don't need us at all George, we need them, or better yet, their properties.

Capt. George - 7-14-2006 at 08:44 AM

need is a strong word. I do not need their properties...

I learned rather quickly in Punta Abreojos about needs and wants....needs are very few indeed, wants are as great as we make them...Choyeros are a special breed and I have learned a great deal from them.

As the fishing in these towns becomes less and less due to growth in population (30 mile trips offshore instead of 5), it becomes becessary for families to part. With the influx of tourism (and the purchase of lands) comes, at least, some jobs that allow families to remain together. Is that bad?

I will continue to vacation in Punta Abreojos for as long as I am able. adios

soon, home to, ahhhhhh, Baja!

Merit in ideas

djh - 7-15-2006 at 08:51 AM

George's point is legit to me.

While I enjoy the adventure and learning new ways, I don't enjoy red tape, run around, and beurocracy (sp?), anywhere...

George and I have discussed this exact thing in person... and in relation to our biz. dealings with each other.

George's point is about simply bringing Mexico - (Baja specifically, but by necessity, likely all of Mexico, I suppose) - onto a level playing field with almost all other nations....

Ya gotta admit the current system is prety crappy - and DESIGNED to COST you and PROFIT SOMEone.... (I would love to have witnessed the writing of the law ! ! - and who was involved in it...)

What was that quote.... "Never doubt that a few determined individuals can change . . . . That is the only way that change ocurs.... or something like that.... I'm sure one of you have access to that quote.

Also, I encourage you all.... as I have before... to consider ideas and their merits critically - without being personally critical or disrespectful to your fellow Nomads.

Who here would not welcome fee-simple ownership of your property ? ? ?

djh

Packoderm - 7-15-2006 at 09:24 AM

Maybe the Mexican government needs to gather up a bunch of gringos from the U.S., have them hold an election, and decide whether or not that part of the Mexican Constitution needs to be changed. :lol:

Wishin' and Hopin'

MrBillM - 7-15-2006 at 09:31 AM

Who here would not welcome fee-simple ownership of your property ? ? ?

djh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I would welcome a host of things that are even less likely to occur than Kapitan Gorge's land reforms.

The VALUE of ANY idea has to be viewed within the context of the likelihood of obtaining it. We can all sit around and say that World Peace, Universal love and respect among all mankind, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH are good ideas. We can sit around holding hands and singing "Imagine" by John Lennon, hoping for all of those "wonderful" IDEAS to come true, even though it is pure fantasy.

The current system is working pretty well from the vantage point of the Mexican Government. No one here can say any longer that BIG Foreign investment is being discouraged so WHY would the Mexicans consider changing ?

Packoderm - 7-15-2006 at 09:48 AM

Beercan, I disagree with the idea that there is nothing that can ever be done. With anti-immigrant sentiment running so high, it is not unthinkable that the treatment of expats living in Mexico could enter the equation for a solution in the U.S./Mexico border dilemma. We could say, "You don't want to treat our people well, so we will close the border, shut down money-wiring infrastructure, and you (Mexico) will have accept that wages earned by Mexicans living in the U.S. will stay in the U.S.." It's possible - it's not just a bunch of Kumbaya.

Capt. George - 7-15-2006 at 09:48 AM

Packoderm,

They were already there....The Baron Bush Family.

Welcome home Mr. BillM, I've missed you terribly!

Kapitan Georgio Kruschev

ahhhhh, Imagine.

Got real tired of being three steps to the right of Attila the Hun, toooo many changes in The Land of Wealth.

And the Winner is...........Pacman !

MrBillM - 7-15-2006 at 11:24 AM

*******************.

PacKo:
.............."With anti-immigrant sentiment running so high, it is not unthinkable that the treatment of expats living in Mexico could enter the equation for a solution in the U.S./Mexico border dilemma. We could say, "You don't want to treat our people well, so we will close the border, shut down money-wiring infrastructure, and you (Mexico) will have accept that wages earned by Mexicans living in the U.S. will stay in the U.S.........."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, where to start ? To begin with, the interest by the U.S. Federal Government in how well U.S. expats living in Mexico are treated in terms of land purchase RIGHTS has to be somewhere around ZERO.. But, are you really serious when you hypothesize that the U.S. should tie those Land Rights issues to the treatment of ILLEGAL Immigrants WITHIN the U.S. ? In other words, IF Mexico will be NICE and reform those rules we will, in turn, tolerate the ongoing Illegal Immigrant problem ? That "Carrot" is the alternative to your "Stick". Given that the polls (all) show roughly 70 % support for closing down the border to illegal immigration and the vast majority of U.S. voters don't even know anyone living an ex-pat life in Mexico, that idea has to rank right up at the top of *********** political moves. Turst me, it's not going to happen.

Thanks for your interest, Komrade Kapitan, it gladdens my heart to know that I've been missed.

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by BajaNomad]

Packoderm - 7-15-2006 at 11:48 AM

I'm just saying that it isn't fantasyland to get such legislation enacted. For one thing, you don't even know what the U.S. government wants or does not want. It is so secretive right now. You like to think because you believe you are on the same side as the very rich conservatives (in at least the double digit millions $) who run things, you are in the loop - but you are not. Also, it wasn't that long ago (about ten years ago I beleive) that they tried to get expats to be able to live in virtually tax exempt status. Remember that? Like I said, you don't really know what is likely to come down the pike.

Musings and Meanderings

MrBillM - 7-15-2006 at 12:16 PM

Living far from any of the "Pikes", I have no idea what is coming down any of them, other than trash and excrement.

It's a familiar refrain from the Looney Left that the U.S. Government is uninterested in large groups of citizens living Within the United States. Keeping that in mind, what in the World would make you think that there would be any serious interest in a relatively small and insignificant group of people such as the Ex-Pats in Mexico ?

I know my memory could be fading as I enter the Twilight years, but I have absolutely NO memory of any serious thought given by the Federal Government in extending any sort of tax relief or exemption to citizens living abroad. I would challenge anyone making such a statement to provide some corroboration other than "I seem to remember". I have a healthy doubt that said event ever occurred. You're welcome to "attempt" to show different. Remember, I am saying "serious". In the U.S. House, especially, a multitude of bills are submitted each year with no hope of any serious consideration. Most are simply introduced to pander to some segment of the home district populace.

As far as my having an inside track on what the Government is doing or thinking, obviously my only insight comes from my insatiable interest in gathering political news as I it find interesting. I have long been accused of being a political "Junkie" starting in my High School days and continuing unabated.

Those Wascally Multimillionaire NeoCon villains..................
You are aware, aren't you, that there are MORE Democrats than Republicans in the U.S. Congress who are Millionaires ? That has been the case for a great number of years.

Osprey - 7-15-2006 at 01:27 PM

Bill, there are powerful forces at work here and you seem to be the only one who sees them, knows what they mean. Mexicans will send home 20 billion $$s this year, Pemex is upsidedown by 55 billion $, timeshares are selling like, well, like timeshares (60 million $s a month in Cabo por ejemplo -- not chump change). The $400 bucks we all pay the banks is less than a fancy sconse for the entranceway on new Cabo house. Gringos living in Mexico are no more than pesky pulgas in the whole scheme of things. I'm a happy one, happy to see the peso stable, happy to hear shouting, not guns on the streets of D.F., happy about the relatively peaceful handover there. Grumblers and whiners are spending too much time doing that and not nearly enough time reading the news.

Osprey - 7-15-2006 at 02:46 PM

Trick question. Like what's the world wide average cost of an apple or a gallon of gas? Privately held land probably still accounts for a very small percentage of all land held under sovereignty. There are as many ways land can be held and sold as there are forms of governments. Mexican Ejidal laws probably look inequitable or clumsy until one looks at all the ways sovereign land is eventually distributed to the private sector, then we might applaud the simplicity of the process. I came here because the land was cheap -- I paid $25,000 (with a house on it) for the land that is close to the shore (I can make the walk in about 3 minutes -- it takes me 10 cause I like to dawdle -- I'm a world class dawdler).

Bruce R Leech - 7-15-2006 at 03:04 PM

Osprey dawdl all you want I enjoy reading about it

Mango - 7-16-2006 at 06:27 PM

Point

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

War is war, they lost, get over it, they're lucky we didn't take it all.

Counterpoint

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

the locals "should" be sympathizing more with the gringos...

Point

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

I worked in all the major ghettos in NYC and became so tired of the plight of the people being blamed on everything and everyone other then themselves.

Counterpoint

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

As for the poor Mexicans living in the hills outside Cabo, let their government raise their minimum wage above five dollars a day.

Capt. , you've made some very valid points in your arguments; but, I've pointed out a few inconsistencies. You must realize Mexico is another country; not subject to our laws, customs, or rights. You are a guest there. Their guest.

Sure we could increase Mexico's GNP through foreign investment; but, the Mexican government would rather see rich mexicans living on the beach or developing it than rich gringos. You really can fault them for that. They realize once land is sold and developed by foreign corporations they will lose money when the corporations send money back to their "Madres". They would rather see mexican corporations develop the land. If our goverment wants to give away the farm, they should as well? I don't think the Mexican government will agree with your logic.

Yes we did take half of their country and then sold weapons to both sides of several of their revolutions afterwards. You should count yourself lucky they still treat us well after all the meddling in thier internal affairs, violence, and suffering we have contributed to in Mexico over the years.

As pointed out by others here, foreigners are not permited to engage in political protests in Mexico. This is in part due to past meddling by outsiders in their politics. For some reason, based on brutal and violent experience, they believe outsiders will not have Mexico's best interests in mind. So your idea of a pettition should be considered with extreme caution.

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
"What's right is right"!!!

You're right; but, don't neglect the reality of karma. Because things have not allways been right to everyone equally. "Right" can often depend on who's shoes you are standing in, and who's holding the bigger stick, and thats not really right is it? I'm sure there are a lot of poor mexicans that would like to have Texas back.

"Generally the officers of the army were indifferent whether the annexation [of Texas] was consummated or not; but not so all of them. For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory." - Ulysses S. Grant

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by Mango]

What goes around doesn't always come around

Dave - 7-16-2006 at 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mango
You're right; but, don't neglect the reality of karma.

Karma, at least what most in the west define as karma, is the furthest thing from reality. Newton's third law does not apply.

Mango - 7-16-2006 at 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Mango
You're right; but, don't neglect the reality of karma.

Karma, at least what most in the west define as karma, is the furthest thing from reality. Newton's third law does not apply.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." - Newtons third law. (Newton was talking about objects, not people's psyche)

"Karma (Sanskrit: ; from the root kr;, "to do", [meaning deed] meaning action, effect, destiny) is a term that comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. The effects of all deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain in others. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well." - Wikipedia

Karma is not about objects. It is about people, what they do, how they do it, and the effects of those actions upon others and in turn, themselves.

The main point in my previous post is that you can not expect mexicans to treat you as we treat each other. They are mexicans, not gringos. They have their own reasons for doing what they do.

My secondary point was that we should not expect the Mexican government to have our best intrest in mind when history shows that we have not had their best interest in mind. They, as we, take care of their own first.

Call it karma, the golden rule, threefold law, or common sense. If you study the history of Mexico you will find that as a nation it has had many not so pleasant interactions with other nations and powers. France, USA, Brittan, and Spain have all invaded Mexico at least once and often more than once.

Is this the reason they don't let foreigners own land on the coast? No, but I believe it explains one reason they are protective against what foreigners can and will do in their country as a whole.

Capt. George - 7-17-2006 at 02:12 AM

Welcome to the board Mango,

They take care of their own first....I wish they would...we seem to be taking more care of "their own" then they are..

What a stimulating thread..

REMEMBER THE ALAMO!

I don't know about you, but I was a "live-in, paying GUEST" of Mexico for 2 1/2 years. Never considered myself more. Still should have the right to a quit claim deed. I earned my money the old fashioned way, I worked like a dog since I was twelve.

What's good for the goose..........

As for selling weapons to both sides, we still do, to paraphrase a song; "All Over the World". We're a Captilist, Industrialist government...It is what it is. Has nothing to do with legally paid for, agreed upon by both parties, land transfer and proper deeds. We are who we are and we do what we do....but at least within "our" borders, people have a right to "own" their property.

War, what is it good for? NUTTIN! Viet Vet

Mango, first, welcome to the board, second, your views cause thought and ( and that is always a good thing) third etc, but by no means, least.

Have you ever lived in Mexico?, Have you ever purchased land here?
Have you ever lived peacefully among it's people for more then a year?
How often do you visit and how much dinero a year do you spend across the border?

Buen Dia el Vikingo de Punta Abreojos

flyfishinPam - 7-17-2006 at 06:05 AM

I am glad that I studied the history of Mexico and have a good understanding why the laws of Mexico are the laws of this land. The short story is that the people of what is now Mexico were conquored by outsiders who took everything they had and ruled over them and used them as slaves or peons. This have vs. have not society has lasted for over 500 years and is very pronounced here more so than it is in the US. I speak of the US because I'm a US citizen and its the country I know. A sort of rectification of years of abuse of the masses by the elite is the principle behind the Ley Federal de Trabajo and the Ley Federal de Agraria (land laws) also the fact that there are certain jobs and businesses that cannot be owned by a non Mexican entity.

with that said, the Mexican land laws are complicated to non Mexicans (also to Mexicans) and they are somewhat to a disadvantage to foreigners. In order for Mexico to remain autonomous, Mexico needs to make its own laws and not bend to foreign pressure. Changes here are made with a voice of the masses and foreigners owning land outright, is not to the advantage of the typical Baja Californiano of Mexican for the reasons that Jesse already explained.

Many of you are foreigners like myself (non Mexican). But many of you do not really live among the Baja Californianos and do not really know them. Heck, I'm married to one and every day learn something very new. We (non Mexicans) are not like them (Mexicans). Although the US and Mexico shares a huge border which is somewhat porous, we are very different people.

The way I see it is that a foreigner CAN own property safely and securely...its called a FIDEICOMISO (sp? my bad). Now if you "own" property any other way you are breaking the law and if you lose it don't come crying to me.

So what's the big problem here?

bajajudy - 7-17-2006 at 06:25 AM

Pam
You got it. I have been following this thread thinking that I would stay out of it but here is my conclusion:

Its their football.....if you dont want to play by their rules dont get in the game.

Osprey - 7-17-2006 at 06:49 AM

Read A Biography of Power, The History of Mexico by Enrique Krauss. The best modern history book perhaps ever written about Mexico.

Capt. George - 7-17-2006 at 07:41 AM

Bajajudy are you a land owner in Mexico? if so how FC?

Pam, you're married to a Mexican no problema para tu. You're children are fully protected as your heirs.....mine are not, therefore:

I simply will not buy another property in Mexico. Will vacation and spend minimum dollars....

I am so tired of yesterdays news...Oh the Spanish, oh the gringos, oh how we were mistreated 4000 years ago! What a bunch of crap. Has nothing to do with fair and equitable BUSINESS dealings.

I was working at 11 and living in 4 rooms with 8 people in NYC. My grandparents were immigrants that were used and abused by the system, what has thatgot to do with me today? Nothing.....oh what was done to us is nothing more then a cop out.......

How about in the US, oh poor us, we were slaves 300 years ago, where's my "benefits"? what a bunch of crap. adios. will go to Alaska and buy land that comes with a deed! Oops, the poor Eskimos, Tinglets etc...blah, blah, blah.

that's it for me on this thread.

George

I wish you all a pleasant and safe Fidio Comiso...

bajalou - 7-17-2006 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

that's it for me on this thread.

George

I hope so - no one likes to hear a cry baby all the time

:cool:

Don Alley - 7-17-2006 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by djh
.... (I would love to have witnessed the writing of the law ! ! - and who was involved in it...)

I heard this: Mexican banks had been hurting, too few deposits, too little loan activity, too little profit. Yet by Mexican law it is unlawful for a Mexican bank to fail. They needed another source of revenue. Enter the fido...some initial paperwork is the only needed investment, then 50 to 100 years, or more, of steady annual profit at virtually no expense. Heck of a deal.

Now whether or not that really had anything to do with writing the law, you can count on the banking industry continuing to support the fideocomiso laws.

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
I wish you all a pleasant and safe Fidio Comiso...

Haha! I hope so.

Or maybe someday a petition will circulate, signed by Mexican citizens, questioning the defacto ownership of all the waterfront land by gringos when their constitution seems to expressly prohibit that. :lol:

JESSE - 7-17-2006 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

I am so tired of yesterdays news...Oh the Spanish, oh the gringos, oh how we were mistreated 4000 years ago! What a bunch of crap. Has nothing to do with fair and equitable BUSINESS dealings.

You shouldn't be, many of the main aspects of american society are a direct result of past history, as they are with most societies. You can't expect a society that has experienced the invasion of other powers, and that has lost an incredible amount of their territory to them, to behave in the exact same way as one that has been the invader. Fact is, many foreigners are making good money in Mexico, Mexico is full of business oportunities, if you don't like the rules, its simple, don't play.

Capt. George - 7-17-2006 at 12:38 PM

I won't, anymore. The rest of you can play Ostrich, I'm done.

Read Poland by James Michener

Now there's the real deal. Talk about being conquered and coming back! No whining there.

Jesse, enjoyed the debate with most of you, but alas, with pathetic and unthought of comments by such as Bajalou, I shall not bother any longer.

OOOOH, I'm gonna go cry now... Capt George

Mango - 7-19-2006 at 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Welcome to the board Mango,

They take care of their own first....I wish they would...we seem to be taking more care of "their own" then they are..

What a stimulating thread..

REMEMBER THE ALAMO!

I don't know about you, but I was a "live-in, paying GUEST" of Mexico for 2 1/2 years. Never considered myself more. Still should have the right to a quit claim deed. I earned my money the old fashioned way, I worked like a dog since I was twelve.

What's good for the goose..........

As for selling weapons to both sides, we still do, to paraphrase a song; "All Over the World". We're a Captilist, Industrialist government...It is what it is. Has nothing to do with legally paid for, agreed upon by both parties, land transfer and proper deeds. We are who we are and we do what we do....but at least within "our" borders, people have a right to "own" their property.

War, what is it good for? NUTTIN! Viet Vet

Mango, first, welcome to the board, second, your views cause thought and ( and that is always a good thing) third etc, but by no means, least.

Have you ever lived in Mexico?, Have you ever purchased land here?
Have you ever lived peacefully among it's people for more then a year?
How often do you visit and how much dinero a year do you spend across the border?

Buen Dia el Vikingo de Punta Abreojos

Thanks for the welcome. I have lived in various places throughout mainland Mexico over the years. I tend to spend about 2-4 months a year in Mexico and I have done that for the last 10 years or so. The first time I visited Mexico I took the bus from Oakland, CA to Oaxaca. I stopped in Guanajato, DF, Puebla, and Copper Canyon.

I got my first inspiration to visit Mexico from my grandfather when I was a child. He would allways teach me Spanish when I visited him. I asked him why he did this one day. He said it was to show respect to those that were here before you. To learn something about their culture, to learn their language, is to show respect. He said our family once spoke Apache, then Spanish, now English. Tomorrow we might speak Chinese. If you want those that come after you to respect you, you need to show them that you have respected others before you.

That story has never left me. My Spanish is actually pretty good now too. lol I've spent much time with native people now living in Mexico and even know a few words in Mayan, Zapotec, Nhuatl(Aztec), and Mixtec. It blows the locals minds when they pass some gringo, rambleing down a dirt path in the forrest, that says hello to them in their native tounge.

I'm not retired; but, currently work in the construction trades. I don't have enough savings to stay a year at this time. I travel south in the winter when work slows.

Now when I travel to Mexico I tend to pick one or two places and find a place to stay long term. Then I explore from there. I was in the mountains around Oaxaca/Puebla this last winter and spent much time in Ixtlan de Juarez and Huautla de Jimenez where I learned a little Zapotec. I spent time farther north in a Nahuatl speaking region of Puebla state the year before, where I befriended a few locals spent my days hiking in the mountains.

I get along well with most mexicans. I had a girlfriend in DF for a few years. I have allways traveled by bus and I am not afraid to go anywhere in the country. I've spent more than a month in D.F. and about a month living in a shack on the Pacific coast with a family of fishermen that I met while walking though town where I helped them with chores/work each day. I have been to every state in Mexico except for Colima, Nuevo Leon, Tamaulipas, and B.C.S.

The main reason I joined this site is to research and learn about Baja. I stumbled upon it during my research and I enjoy the community here. I plan to goto Baja this winter and explore, find somewhere nice to take a long siesta(camp), learn about the local native culture(petroglyphs, etc.), kayak, and maybe bring a friend or two. I'm going to be driving instead of taking the bus this time.

Every town I goto I seek out the oldest people I can find, talk with them, learn about their lives, and the local history. I tend to stay away from the tourist locations, I take local transport, and eat at the mercados or street vendors more often than not.

If you, or anyone else has questions about the mainland let me know.

Take care.

Capt. George - 7-20-2006 at 01:32 AM

You will not go wrong visiting Punta Abreojos and the surrounding Pueblos.

La Bocana, San Hipolito, Punta Prieta and Asuncion, all north of PA on a coast road...

"Small town" Baja remains a very, very special place.

Capt George aka in those towns; el Vikingo de Punta Abreojos

Good Luck on your trip there.

Corky1 - 8-16-2006 at 05:22 PM

Bruce,
Just a curious question.
When you say Baja doesn't need forgien investment or
forgien money, what percentage of the funds that keep this business open is forgien money???

Welcome to
Mulege Business and Financial Services

Corky :?: