BajaNomad - More on Loreto Bay!

More on Loreto Bay!

turtleandtoad - 7-17-2006 at 07:12 AM

Pam, I can see how business's would be affected by the influx of tourist.

But what about the negative effects. Have you seen any of the predicted problems? Like water or power shortages, crime increases, etc.

How about unemployment, has LB improved or worsened it?

Loreto is still one of my favorite places so it's nice to get a first-hand report occasionally.

Don Alley - 7-17-2006 at 07:20 AM

There's no doubt that LB has boosted business in Loreto, both directly, through it's promotional efforts, and through it's help in bringing Alaska Air flights.

Lots of folks are making money, lots of spending, lots of jobs. Loreto is one busy little town now.

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
The decision now is how big do we want to get? I'm sure that there are more businesses in this town asking themselves the same question.

You don't get to decide. :biggrin:

Don Alley - 7-17-2006 at 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
Pam, I can see how business's would be affected by the influx of tourist.

But what about the negative effects. Have you seen any of the predicted problems? Like water or power shortages, crime increases, etc.

How about unemployment, has LB improved or worsened it?

Loreto is still one of my favorite places so it's nice to get a first-hand report occasionally.

Lots more traffic. Lots. And less parking.

Water: they are cracking down on late payments with big fines. We've been lazy and only seem to get around to paying once a year. This year that cost us a ten fold increase, lol. Rates are going to go up, and we will lose flat rate rates to metered rates. But so far, no shortages.

Unemployment? I don't think so. We have a few little things to do at our place we wanted done in the spring but we'll try in the fall when it cools; we just had too much trouble getting the workers. There seems to be more jobs than willing workers. That may change as more folks move in (the mayor says 5,000 in the last two years) and as locals run out of cash from their ejido land deals and their new pickups break down.

There is construction everywhere, on almost every block....repairs, remodels, additions, new houses, new businesses.

Crime? All evidence is anecdotal. But there have been two burglaries on my block this year. And be careful if you deal with that certain real estate guy. :lol:

Of course we've seen big growth before up north. Right now the only losers in Loreto are those who buy now instead of just a few years ago, or maybe those of us who should have bought more. :lol:

Or maybe the locals who sold too soon for too little. :no:

The bad stuff comes later. :lol:

I'll shut up now.

capn.sharky - 7-17-2006 at 08:19 AM

You are right Pam---it does look nice....but they just plastered over the crappy construction and are hiding the real problems. Also they are still very close together and will probably fall down during the first hurricane. Overpriced and underbuilt....just another half assed project by our friends to the north of Washington and Montana.

drzura - 7-17-2006 at 09:04 AM

I have been traveling to Loreto every summer for some time now. I am always amazed on the new development going on. We rented a house in town for two weeks and the land lord said that theft was on the rise (more people=more crime). I wanted to buy a lot in the Loreto area for a retirement home. I have 12 years in the Coast Guard and have 8 more to go. After looking around, it seems that much of the land in the Loreto area has already been purchased. And with the growth prospects of the Loreto area (I did not want to live in a "Cabo" environment in 10 years) I decided that I would prefer a smaller place. So, I found a nice lot up at San Lucas for sale in my price range. I am in the process of the deal now. The land is .41 acres and has a 26' 5th wheel on it. I am happy with the deal and the area.

jimgrms - 7-17-2006 at 09:19 AM

Pam mostly baja big fish co is doing well because you care about your clientel take a persnoel interest in your buisness ,and work your u know what off, as for the crappy const, capt sharky that is every where and thier is no getting away from it ,if it was done right it would be unafordable ,it's called progress and as much as we older folks don't like it we have to some how deal with it, just wish i was younger and healthier i would be thier in a minute

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by jimgrms]

Crappy construction?

Cincodemayo - 7-17-2006 at 09:30 AM

Been there seen it...I'd hardly call this crappy...It's pretty cool as a matter of fact but to each his or her own!

Craftsman

Cincodemayo - 7-17-2006 at 09:33 AM

Very talented work...

bancoduo - 7-17-2006 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
Very talented work...

It looks a little scary to me. Hope there are no earthquake! Whats that thing sticking out of the wall?

Cincodemayo - 7-17-2006 at 11:12 AM

Bunco...Yeah I'm laughing all the way to the bank myself!

Don Alley - 7-17-2006 at 11:28 AM

Crappy construction...

Well, I don't know. I've seen how they stacked the adobe but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to construction. The finished units sure look really, really nice. And the price per square foot is far above what my construction work cost so it should be solid. At their prices I don't think they needed to cut any corners. Anyway, the detail work is nice and time will tell what's underneath it.

If the place were planned for 400-500 units I'd think it was great. But 5000-6000 units...YIKES! :lol:

edit: Oh, Have you seen the little building LB built by the Loreto playground? Pretty cute, I'll try and take a photo when I'm back down next week.

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by Don Alley]

Sharksbaja - 7-17-2006 at 12:04 PM

Gee, are you guys actually surprised that the project looks good? It better look good, those Canadians are very anal folks. As for biz and the future, my guess would be 5 yrs before it looks/acts like any So. Cal or Rosarito Beach overdeveloped place. You'll be up to yer armpits in people. :lol:

I guess that's good for some of us but it certainly doesn't call up visions of Baja to me.
Now, let's see how they power em all up.

wilderone - 7-17-2006 at 01:26 PM

So this is their interpretation of "charm of old-world Mexico with Spanish Colonial architecture"?

Looks like a hodgepodge of pseudo-mediterranean with a pink stucco overlay, with hints of cheap hotel thrown in. They couldn't have put a cap rock on those walls? Is that the Anasazi ruins influence? And the extended rooftops - That's the Guatamalan cupola influence? Is that one backyard cut up into several sections or multiple backyards with no privacy? And full of gringos and Canadians. Yikes. Hope you all enjoy your non-Loretoesq, non-Baja, "village" - gag me. Sorry - I was going to totally ignore this string - but the loss is too profound.

comitan - 7-17-2006 at 01:52 PM

It looks like multiple courtyards know thy neighbor. :no:

Also note the air conditioners(2) upper patio wall I'm sure that was well planned.

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by comitan]

jerry - 7-17-2006 at 02:06 PM

sure those arnt speakers??

bancoduo - 7-17-2006 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
So this is their interpretation of "charm of old-world Mexico with Spanish Colonial architecture"?

Looks like a hodgepodge of pseudo-mediterranean with a pink stucco overlay, with hints of cheap hotel thrown in. They couldn't have put a cap rock on those walls? Is that the Anasazi ruins influence? And the extended rooftops - That's the Guatamalan cupola influence? Is that one backyard cut up into several sections or multiple backyards with no privacy? And full of gringos and Canadians. Yikes. Hope you all enjoy your non-Loretoesq, non-Baja, "village" - gag me. Sorry - I was going to totally ignore this string - but the loss is too profound.

How about the contempory touch. The twin A/C units on the roof looking down on the Anasazi ruins. actually;the comparison does a diservice to the ruins.

Cincodemayo - 7-17-2006 at 02:18 PM

Nothing like mentioning Loreto Bay to get wilderone on a rampage :lol:

maybe they should call it...

eetdrt88 - 7-17-2006 at 03:20 PM

Irvine Bay or Mission Viejo Bay because it sure looks alot like some of the same stuff they're throwin up all over the south OC area...i've seen a few new homes down on the beach in the south campo's below San Felipe that have a much more authentic look than those places and are probably considerably cheaper as well :lol:

Funny thang is

Sharksbaja - 7-17-2006 at 03:29 PM

how jaded we all are.

Gonna take a bit more authenticism than that to wow most of us anymore. :lol:

Skipjack Joe - 7-17-2006 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
Nothing like mentioning Loreto Bay to get wilderone on a rampage :lol:

Trouble is, the man's right. The loss is too profound.

flyfishinPam - 7-17-2006 at 05:25 PM

Hi there,

Here's my take on your questions~

Quote:

Crime- was on the rise before Loreto Bay entered the scene as there is a bad meth problem here that started to be felt about 7 years ago.

Water/power shortages~ I'm noticing more with the demand but there is also construction going on elsewhere throughtout the town so can't blame it all on the LB project.

Unemployment~ the local folks are saying that anyone who doesn't have work doesn't want work. From my perspective its harder to find good employees because LB seems to snatch up the good ones! There are some folks who prefer to work for a smaller business thank goodness.

From a tourist perspective things in general will get better as availibility of products increases and level of service increases.

I know all this bummes a lot of people off who remember the way Loreto used to be but there is growth everywhere and here too. Also the LB plans are better than the plan fonatour had for Loreto.

flyfishinPam - 7-17-2006 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
The decision now is how big do we want to get? I'm sure that there are more businesses in this town asking themselves the same question.

You don't get to decide. :biggrin:

Actually since I control the business, yes I do get to decide.

GREED RULES!

bancoduo - 7-17-2006 at 05:30 PM

Don Alley - 7-17-2006 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
The decision now is how big do we want to get? I'm sure that there are more businesses in this town asking themselves the same question.

You don't get to decide. :biggrin:

Actually since I control the business, yes I do get to decide.

Oh. OK, I misunderstood. My bad. I thought you meant deciding how big Loreto and vicinity will get. Sorry 'bout that.

You do get to decide. :lol:

Baja BIG Fish

[Edited on 7-18-2006 by Don Alley]

jimgrms - 7-17-2006 at 05:41 PM

banconduo greed does not rule , everyone want,s to excel and the standard of measurement is money ,and what it can get you

bancoduo - 7-17-2006 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgrms
banconduo greed does not rule , everyone want,s to excel and the standard of measurement is money ,and what it can get you

You made my point! :lol:

Cincodemayo - 7-17-2006 at 06:21 PM

Pam is right on the money but as usual everyone else has their piece of the pie and to hell with everyone else.....Things NEVER stay the same.
All the negative people will always be negative.
Pam is so right about what Foanatur wanted to do with Loreto...just the same as Cabo San Mission pendejo Lucas, Cancun, and the other petals on their flower. Time to get out or get over it as it's happening wether you like it or not. b-tch all you want, rant and rave but ALL Baja is changing.
Just gander what has gone on the last 25 years :coolup:

JZ - 7-17-2006 at 09:31 PM

I think there are a lot of very jealous people on this board.

Loreto Bay

wakemall - 7-17-2006 at 09:40 PM

I visited Loreto Bay twice in the last two months and saw the construction. You have to be crazy to think it it sound. Rebar is used on the end supports only. Rebar stacked with core light bricks.. Everything in the middle is stack adobe bricks with no concrete in between nor steel. Just stacked up adobe bricks held together with the outside and interior stuco.

They sure look nice and fancy now. But what the heck will happen with any earth shift. You think the stacked adobe is going to stay place? NOT!!!! There is nothing to support the interior walls. This is a really major disaster building.

I really feel for the poor people that got suckered into this. They are going to lose all there MX investment. Holy crap, they have not even figured out the water and sewage at this time. This is really bad... Although I like the fact that Loreto will return to a small fishing town......

Loreto Bay

wakemall - 7-17-2006 at 09:55 PM

Forgot to say that Pam and Sharky are right about the increase in all illegal activiity. I have a home in Loreto and have never been approached by drug sellers. Until two weeks ago. They approached me and wanted to sell drugs to my brother and me. I also have friends that have visited Loreto for 15 years. They rented a casa and had someone utilize a long pole to steal all there stuff through a barred window. Passports, fancy reels, and money.

These are not the local people as we know all of them and they know us.

Are you serious

Sharksbaja - 7-17-2006 at 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
I think there are a lot of very jealous people on this board.

You really think so??? Just what is there to be jealous of JZ? Good grief, so many new projects and developments emulate one another these days. Right now this type of architecture is more and more common. Especially in arid SW environments.
If you mean just being able to get any real estate foothold in Baja, well then, I would concur. Otherwise just look around Scottsdale, the San Diego suburbs or Escondido. :lol:

Of course there's a tad more going on in these places besides pseudo-Mexicana facades. Just my opinion. Have a good one, Corky.

Ricardo - 7-18-2006 at 07:48 AM

Wakemall, I was wondering if you saw all the aspects of construction? Mexican construction uses Adobe or non structural block. These are filler type material and are commonly cemented together. The structural part is columns (Trabe) and beams (Castillo) with rebar in each. Often the cement is added after the block is already largely in place. I think those are the right Spanish terms. There is a building code and Mexicans do follow it unless corruption enters the picture. A building inspector does check progress and checks for code violations. The methods used by mexicans are quite ingenious and often seem strange to us, I wouldn't sell them short without actually understanding how things are done. I do wonder how well the non structural walls will stand up after a shaker though.
Ricardo

Ricardo, you haven't been taking your meds

Dave - 7-18-2006 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ricardo
There is a building code and Mexicans do follow it unless corruption enters the picture. A building inspector does check progress and checks for code violations.

Ken Bondy - 7-18-2006 at 10:07 AM

Ricardo - in structural engineering and construction vernacular the more generally accepted terms are:

Column - columna
Beam - viga
Slab - losa

++Ken++

Cincodemayo - 7-18-2006 at 01:30 PM

Wakemall.....WAKE UP MAN. Don't feel sorry for all the people with money dude as they can afford to lose it. Pretty simple man, just don't buy it if you don't like it. All those people didn't get rich by doing dumb things...it's called research, questions and more questions. If the "BIG" one comes that's what insurance is for!! :lol:

Cincodemayo - 7-18-2006 at 01:40 PM

From a renouned seismologist....just think in another 12 million years Loreto will be in San Diego and think what the property values will be then!!

Parts of California and Baja California ride along on the Pacific plate as it slides past the North America plate. Over the last 20 million years, the Pacific plate has slid 200 miles towards the north. Some would say that in 12 million years Los Angeles would be next to San Francisco.

backninedan - 7-18-2006 at 01:57 PM

I was just down at Pams and she didnt have any chips....or salsa. But she was really busy and thats a good thing.

comitan - 7-18-2006 at 02:05 PM

Ken

The beam that ties the columns together, and goes over the doors and windows is called the Cadena. (chain)

Ken Bondy - 7-18-2006 at 02:30 PM

Gracias comitan. Sounds like what we would call a "lintel".

++Ken++

Ricardo - 7-18-2006 at 06:56 PM

Actually I just just am finishing a house in Lapaz, The terms Trabe and Castillo are taken directly off the Mexican Plans. These were done by a professional. I just don't know where my Spanish Dictionary is.
The house has a Beam (like a Lintel or header) that ties all the columns together it goes all the way around the house and also joins all the interior walls together, this is at the height of the top of windows and doors. The columns exist at every exterior corner and room corner plus every window and door edge (plus every 2.5 meters on a straight wall). The building inspector in Lapaz checked the construction as it progressed. I'll try to post a picture but not sure I can.
Ricardo

flyfishinPam - 7-18-2006 at 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
Oh. OK, I misunderstood. My bad. I thought you meant deciding how big Loreto and vicinity will get. Sorry 'bout that.

You do get to decide. :lol:

Baja BIG Fish

[Edited on 7-18-2006 by Don Alley]

Actually I like staying small.

Ricardo - 7-18-2006 at 07:26 PM

Whew, thanks Dave, just took my Meds, I must admit we were on site during construction to ensure the rules were followed. (as best we could)We did run into a few problems that had to be solved with pesos, and without being there I think many many things would have been omitted or hidden. I did say corruption may be a problem just didn't say how much of a problem. HA HA.

Don Alley - 7-18-2006 at 07:36 PM

Building inspectors? Do they have building inspectors in Loreto? :lol:

Here's a house wall under construction:

Pillars and beams of rebar reinforced concrete, with cemented block between.

comitan - 7-18-2006 at 07:38 PM

Ricardo

I don't think you have any worries of shoddy construction in La Paz, To get your bldg permit the architect draws what you want then an engineer has to approve it, I am of the belief that here in La Paz their reputations are at stake. Since I have done a lot of construction I take notice of all that I see, and I have only seen good construction in this area.

comitan - 7-18-2006 at 07:41 PM

Don

That construction is typical and good if they have rebar in the cadena, and have enough cement in the concrete.

capn.sharky - 7-18-2006 at 09:11 PM

Wakemall is right. They have hidden the bad construction. I guarantee that the first earthquake or hurricane will put the place on the ground. As for building inspectors---where the hell did that come from. We got no stinkin building inspectors. The Mexicans that I have talked to that work down in Loreto Bay tell me they would not put their own families in these places. Also, this is susposed to be a copy of an original Mexican pueblo---HA!!!! Yes---it looks good after it was stucco'ed over. Also, where is the desalination plant and the grey water plant they promised. What happened to the rain forrest plan Pam talked about a couple of months ago. Nope---can't convince me of the quality of the Loreto Bay company. I have watched this project go up from day one and they couldn't give me one free.

Baja Life magazine

capitolkat - 7-19-2006 at 05:40 AM

There is an extensive article on this project in the current issue of Baja Life. Pages of questions about this project were posed to Mr. Butterfield and some dealt with construction. The adobe style was discussed and a rebuttal was offered that indicated that adobe was not suitable in areas of high humidity. While it waas attractive and resisted bugs and bullets it was subject to crumbling and settling in areas- like Loreto- where the humidity was high for extended periods of time.

there were other inquiries like the water, infrastructure, golf course, services, density and why don't they build less homes on larger parcels to support the concept of less density but higher quality and consequential higher prices - which will in turn produce the same profit and less impact. the lack of a long term plan for desalinization when the aquifer is depleted were also part of the inquiries. Worth a serious look for those interested. I fear this project is similar to the doofy project being proposed on El Magote in Bahia de La Paz. The first storm surge will take the whole ball game away- and they have sold millions of dollars of promises to investors and not a stick has been built- the last news was in March and it's been quiet since then.

Just like anywhere in the world - investors and property buyers should keep their brains turned on when they fall in love with a view.

Thanks for the link

flyfishinPam - 7-19-2006 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by morgaine7
You can download the BajaLife article here:
http://www.bajalifemag.com/pdf/LoretoBay.pdf

:!:

PDF, 1.3MB :!:

Kate

printed it out and will read tonight.

Ricardo - 7-19-2006 at 07:00 PM

Lencho, I agree, we used redi mix and a pumper for the roof and mixed it on the floor for block work, all OK as far as I can see.

capn.sharky - 7-19-2006 at 08:19 PM

Just read the Baja Life article and find it most informative. This is a must read for those on this board. Baja Life is to be commended for the job it did on this report. I think the Loreto Bay Project is doomed to failure---leaving behind a mess on the beach and a trail of broken dreams. As for adobe as a building material---one only has to look at the mission chain to see that the missions that are still standing are made from stone and rock. Those made from adobe are non-existant or in very poor repair. Hopefully, the new President of Mexico will put a stop to any further building in Nopolo as he has expressed a concern for the people of Mexico.

Please note that I have never (NEVER) waivered from my dislike of the Loreto Bay project. I am certain that in time I will be proven right about this blight on the Baja desert.

jerry - 7-19-2006 at 08:20 PM

you know the consistancy or the block?? salt sand gravel out of the arroyo will fall apart
you can see it all over mexico even at the block plant you can crumble them or the walls are falling apart have them tested or play the piper looking at cement is like looking a dye in a bucket of water noone can tell unless your artateic is on the job or has someone that
is its a crap shoot most ppl in baja will never tell you what really happens unless thier there for the whole period so they know.
then they will brag because they survivedinspections my borro better be there

Worldtraveller - 7-19-2006 at 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capitolkat
I fear this project is similar to the doofy project being proposed on El Magote in Bahia de La Paz.

I know folks who are familiar with a large development completed some years ago in the Caribbean (Providenciales) by one of the El Mogote developers.

Many of the issues were the similar. Not enough water, electricity, sewage capacity, and workers. Road and trash disposal issues, hurricanes, sensitive reefs, lobster beds & aquifiers, etc. In the end, it worked out very well for both the developers and the local populace. That was about 20 or 25 years ago.

A lot of good questions are being raised. My concerns are less given the good past performances of both the Loreto Bay and the El Mogote developers.

Paula - 7-19-2006 at 10:48 PM

The Baja Life article on Loreto Bay reinforces my thinking on the project over the past few years.
While construction moves on, the infrastructure questions remain answered only in theory. Why have the desalination plants not been started? Will the wind generated power ever really happen? Will the non-local construction workers who live temporarily in Loreto ever have decent living conditions? Fonatur and the construction companies who do the actual building of the project remain as scapegoats, and solutions are continually evaded. New sections of units are started before the previous ones are finished or inhabited.
Perhaps the developers are sincere in their stated goals, perhaps not. When push comes to shove, results matter, not motivation.
I really don't care if a bunch of northerners trying to find inner peace and shelter from the snow want to sit on rooftops in a lotus position feeling good about their connection to the earth. I do care if the economic and environmental consequences cause hardship for the people who were there first.
There seem to be some short term benefits for some people, and quick money is seductive. Can the Loreto area continue to attract tourists with windy cold winters and long seasons of poor fishing? Only time will tell.
If things don't go well, we'll be looking at the ruins for a long time, and the beaches will be even longer in recovering from the scars of abandoned construction, as in Puerto Escondido.

Don Alley - 7-19-2006 at 11:37 PM

I also read the Bajalife article. A couple of observations:

The article says the most important and limited resource is water. I'm not sure I agree. I suspect that the most limited resource, especially in terms of "sustainability," is people. There are far too few people here to support the LB development. Especially for a development for foreigners who do no local work. Fonatur estimates 10 Mexican immigrants to the area for each unit built, the "Harvard study" people say that may be understated.

So whatever arguments are made for the sustainability and/or eco friendliness of the development would be overwhelmed by the tens of thousands of new area residents who will not be driving electric cars to eco-friendly homes with water-saving appliances using eco-soap and grey water toilets.

Another comment. The article mentions the Danzante resort at Ensenada Blanca as a favorable alternative to Loreto Bay type development. Well, the Danzante Resort is going to be overwhelmed by a high density, 2000 unit Villas Group development. I've heard a rumor that Danzante's owners have decided to pull out.

End of development?

Sharksbaja - 7-20-2006 at 12:04 PM

I get the idea some think this doomed development is the end of the line for Loretos' exspansion. :lol:

Let's think about this. I have mentioned before about collateral damage. Understand the word "damage" here reflects a meaning comprised of hi-density urban-type sprawl and development(s). Notwithstanding the current emphasis on LB, the floodgates are already open with scores of well-heeled developers biting at the bit.
Don't be naive, tha LB project will continue on while building permits are issued daily to others. As long as water flows to the officinas of relevent and pertinent others the progress will continue. After all, as some say; "coastal communities are ineveitable". But then, so is the flu.

rob - 7-20-2006 at 12:51 PM

Hi Comitan!

Could that be "Every day is a winding road - get a little bit closer . . " Sheryl Crow?

Rob

comitan - 7-20-2006 at 03:08 PM

Rob

Thanks went to her site read lyrics not the same, as I remember its eather a man or group.