BajaNomad

Fedaral building & federal zone permits

Russ - 7-17-2006 at 07:26 PM

Punta Chivato area is being swarmed my federal empoyees with forms that are very intimidating. The officials are very nice and patient. They have said that all of Baja Sur is not in compliance with federal laws and it is just now processing this area. They, and the form letters, say that we needed to apply for federal permits to clear (change) the land and also apply for federal contruction permits. and since we did not we are in violation of federal laws and subject to fines, and worse The inspectors clamed that if we did not sign their inspection forms they would have to inform the police that we refused to sign. Signing the forms aknowledges that we are the responsible party. I pointed out that the land was cleared prior to my purchasing it and that when I buildt I went through an architect, contractor, Bank ( for the bank trust), permits and social security. No one said anything about the federial permits. this is FYI but sure would like to hear some, serious, feed back. http://forums.bajanomad.com/images/smilies/wow.gif
:wow:

Dave - 7-17-2006 at 07:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Russ
The inspectors clamed that if we did not sign their inspection forms they would have to inform the police that we refused to sign.


The police have no jurisdiction.

Russ - 7-17-2006 at 08:01 PM

Thanks Dave. I understand that but the threat was amplied like that. I think because I don't speak Spanish that well they tried to use terms that I'd understand.

bajamigo - 7-17-2006 at 08:12 PM

Get an abogado. Give yourself a good night's rest.

why no interest?

JG - 7-18-2006 at 11:10 AM

DanO - 7-18-2006 at 11:25 AM

The federal government's interest is limited to the area within 20 meters of the mean high tide line. The property owner must obtain a concession from the government to maintain a structure that intrudes into the zone. See the link. I don't know how this applies in Chivato, but I can say that the definition of a meter appears to be somewhat, uh, flexible, depending on the circumstances.

http://www.mexicolaw.com/LawInfo30.htm

Bajalero - 7-18-2006 at 11:26 AM

I heard once that the Federal Zone comprises any area within a 20 ft tidal height. If that info is correct there's a big purse waiting to be collected by the Gov.



I 'd be willing to bet that this affects just about every gringo that owns beachfront property in Baja


Buyer Beware

Lero

Bajalero - 7-18-2006 at 11:32 AM

Thanks for the link Dan O . That helps clarify the matter somewhat.

The method of enforcement will be the real story

Lero

Russ - 7-18-2006 at 11:49 AM

Thank you for the above replies. I'm still hoping to hear from some one that has gone through this. There are about 150 or more of us here that this will effect to some extent. Even those that are on leases with improvements. We thought we understood the regs concerning the Fed. Zone.
These guys are saying all that info was State and Muiciple and they're the Feds. I guess we'll have to take a wait and see attitude.

Dave, your response from another thread?

DanO - 7-18-2006 at 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by The Gull
The law against fireworks cannot be enforced on the beach, it is federal land.


The Congress recently passed a law that allows state and local agencies to enforce the law in the federal zone. Of course this means that now they will enforce them to their own advantage, not their constituents.


Which one is it?

aldosalato - 7-18-2006 at 03:35 PM

Also construccion in private properties bordering the ZFMT (Zona Federal Maritimo Terrestre) must have an environmental study previous the starting of building.
Problem is that 99.9% of existing buildings in Mexico bordering ZFMT do not have such permit.............
Probably the PROFEPA agency is going after this kind of problem more than checking the ZFMT only.

Russ - 7-18-2006 at 04:58 PM

aldosalato, You have hit on what it is I'm concerned about. And Dano, at some point it would be nice to have th concession too.

Osprey - 7-18-2006 at 05:14 PM

Dave, the more authoritative your words the more likely somebody on this forum will make you eat them if and when you are wrong.
Russ, PROFEPA made a wide path down here in East Cape (where there are countless waterside homes and 7 fishing resorts). They used the old laws and the new laws to take almost $450,000 U.S. out of this bay in fines for not having environmental impact papers and from encroachments onto the Zona Maritima. This all just happened over the last 10 months -- big money people with lots of clout were made to pony up. The first look-see was 6 agents, a week later 60 more showed up when they saw the opportunities. A dozen or more million dollar homes atop a big shoreside cliff were also made to pay/conform with the elevation clouding the encroachment. No need to find an expensive notario for this one --- dozens of competent Mexican legal aid people emerged down here to deal directly with PROFEPA and they were able to get relief, make sense of what is happening along the shore between honest homeowners and a goverment whose laws are still evolving.

bancoduo - 7-18-2006 at 05:35 PM

It used to be people moved to Mexico so they would'nt have to deal with this chit. Enviromental issues in Mexico is a oxymarooon. Time to move on.:no::no::no:

Russ - 7-18-2006 at 05:38 PM

Osprey, That is the kind of info I'm looking for. Any idea where to contact these legal aid folks? This is just starting here now. There are only a few of us (five) here right now so hopefully they'll hold this up for a few months while we get some advise. Thanks!

bancoduo - 7-18-2006 at 05:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Russ
Punta Chivato area is being swarmed my federal empoyees with forms that are very intimidating. The officials are very nice and patient. They have said that all of Baja Sur is not in compliance with federal laws and it is just now processing this area. They, and the form letters, say that we needed to apply for federal permits to clear (change) the land and also apply for federal contruction permits. and since we did not we are in violation of federal laws and subject to fines, and worse The inspectors clamed that if we did not sign their inspection forms they would have to inform the police that we refused to sign. Signing the forms aknowledges that we are the responsible party. I pointed out that the land was cleared prior to my purchasing it and that when I buildt I went through an architect, contractor, Bank ( for the bank trust), permits and social security. No one said anything about the federial permits. this is FYI but sure would like to hear some, serious, feed back. http://forums.bajanomad.com/images/smilies/wow.gif
:wow:
Do you own MEDIVAC:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Osprey - 7-18-2006 at 05:56 PM

Russ, The closer to the problem your help is, the better the problem can be handled. I defer to Bruce. Bruce, please let us know who in Mulege has been handling PROFEPA claims. Russ, I'll u2u to let you know our local people but they may not be up on what's what that far north.

Capt. George - 7-18-2006 at 06:03 PM

bancoduo

on my way to alaska...

adios. The Ostrich mentality of the Baja Gringos is gonna bite them in the ass...

I'll be long gone as a "ha, ha, property owner"..

Capt George

Capt. George - 7-18-2006 at 06:04 PM

burro

how pathetic is that?

oladulce - 7-18-2006 at 06:20 PM

Russ-

I hope the "boat" is big enough for all of us. We buy TUMS in bulk nowadays.

Don't you find yourself asking frequently "how in the heck were we supposed to know all of this ???"

We've spent thousands (dollars) in the past couple of months (on our attorney and an "Engineer") trying to figure out what the requirements are. Without these guys' help, we wouldn't have a clue what to do.

From what we understand, the real biggie is the "Cambio de Uso de Suelo" permit which classifies or changes land from "Forestal" to residential. You apply for it in La Paz but I still don't understand if this is a Federal or a State permit. We were told it carries the heaviest penalty/fine $$$$ so it's what we focused on first. We were also told that there is a local Cambio de Uso permit to do at the Municipio level (ours is Comond?, in Cd Constituci?n) but we haven't gotten to that point yet.

It sounds like one of the permits the Feds were asking you for was this "Cambio". Are your properties former ejido land that was privatized, or were they just rural land before people built ?

The only reason any of you would need to get a Federal Zone concession is if your buildings, landscaping, boat launch etc actually encroaches upon the ZFM of 20 meters from the water.

We don't plan to build on the Fed Zone in front of us, so we applied for a concession in the category of "ornato" or "protecci?n". Our application was filed in November of last year and SEMARNAT in Mexico City gives themselves until this August to complete it (10 months) so this would not be a quick fix if any of you have built in the Zone.

An Environmental Impact study is required before building if your property abuts the Federal Zone. Luckily we knew about this and ours study has been in the works.

I don't understand enough myself to impart much valuable information, but wanted you to know that you're not alone.

U2u if you'd like to know some of the resouces we've used.


sigh...

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by oladulce]

Reading something not there

Dave - 7-18-2006 at 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Dave, the more authoritative your words the more likely somebody on this forum will make you eat them if and when you are wrong.


Go back and reread my post. How would the police have jurisdiction over someone not signing a form? I don't believe I specifically mentioned anything about the federal zone.


DanO

Here, in Rosarito, the police will occasionally, begrudgingly respond to reports of fireworks and/or vehicles on the beach. But what if someone called to report a neighbor's building encroaching on his property or the federal zone? You think the police would respond? They would tell you that the proper agency and/or courts would have to make a determination before any enforcement authority could act.

Russ - 7-18-2006 at 07:40 PM

soulpatch, I was just a witnees for a couple that are leasing and have improvements. They basicly went through the same thing I did yesterday. But they were requested to give a copy of the land change form to their landlord. Osprey, Thanks! I'm more than a little ignorant about the forum, What is u2u?

Russ - 7-18-2006 at 07:51 PM

oladulce, Like many here I started long ago camping then I leased and buildt my first home Now I'm in the second. I really thought I had jumpped through all the hoops. Good luck to you!

oladulce - 7-18-2006 at 07:53 PM

A u2u is a private message. At the very top of the Nomad page under the date, it will say "you have a u2u". Click on that and it'll take you there.

To send one, either click on the name of the person in the list of members or find a message they wrote and click on the "u2u" button below the message to go to the compose message page.

Russ - 7-18-2006 at 08:02 PM

Thanks, I'm just now playing with it. Also the was ejido land that was splitup into parcels.

DanO - 7-19-2006 at 10:17 AM

Patch -- correct, ask the owner. He would have to obtain any concession that might be necessary. The point of my original post here is that when we built we very carefully measured to make sure we were outside the Zona, but several years ago, an agent appeared whose measuring tape had longer meters on it than ours did.

Dave -- that clarifies it. I hadn't understood the threat to be that the police would be enforcing the federal law, but more of a trespass issue.

Joelt - 11-7-2006 at 01:04 PM

I have a place in Punta Chivato and was wondering what the fines were in the East Cape area. Nobody hare can get any information from the Profepa peole. There are rumors about fines ranging from around $7,000 to $11,000 dollars. Then having to do an enviromental impact study on top of that. There were no federal use changes or federal building permits on any of the places here. Can you go to La Paz and pay the fines on your own or do you need assistance? If anyone has any information I would appreciate it. Thanks