BajaNomad - A brief primer on Surnames and honorifics

A brief primer on Surnames and honorifics

Oso - 8-14-2006 at 06:15 PM

Recently, some posters (all gringos), have referred to Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador as "Obrador". This is not a correct usage in Mexico or Latin America. Obrador is the man's mother's maiden name.

It is common to refer to politicians by their paternal and maternal surnames. That's why you occasionally hear or see "Fox Quesada" in reference to the current presidente. BTW, his first name is "Vicente", which is more or less the Spanish equivalent of the English "Vincent", but "Vincente" is not in common usage in either language. (I know a name can be anything a person chooses or his/her parents condemned them to, and I'm not touching the subject of African-American Professional Athlete's names with an eleven foot Slav)

Slightly less common, but increasingly seen in deference to English language media, is the use of just the paternal surname, i.e.; "Fox". So, by that space-saving custom, AMLO would be referred to as "Lopez".

Then we come to the honorific "Don" which is commonly used beyond the confines of episodes of "The Sopranos". The female equivalent is "Do?a". These are simple marks of respect, widely misunderstood throughout English literature..

In direct address, these are used with the person's first name. In the third person, they can be used with the person's first name or full name. When introducing someone of respect, it should precede the full name or at least first name and paternal surname. In other countries and languages, it may vary. But in Mexico, the honorific is NEVER used with only the surname.

Correct: Don Vicente, Don Andres.
Formal: Don Vicente Fox, Don Andres Manuel Lopez
More formal: Don Vicente Fox Quesada, Don Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador

OK: Fox, Lopez
Common Media: Fox Quesada, Lopez Obrador

Wrong: Don Fox, Don Quesada, Don Lopez, Don Obrador,

Familiar: Chente, El Botudo, AMLO, El Peje

Odd note; Although you are never wrong in addressing a relatively mature lady as "Se?ora" or a younger one as "Se?orita" and you may attempt flattery with the latter within a certain imprecise zone, subject to correction, it is permissable to show respect by addressing a lady as simply "Do?a" without attaching a name. However, I have never heard of addressing a man as simply "Don" without an attached name. (Unless, of course, his name is Donald or Donaldo.)

Argument to the contrary and-or further enlightenment welcome.

oxxo - 8-14-2006 at 07:36 PM

Interesing! What can you tell me about the salutation "Maestro"? How is that used and when?

Thanks.

woody with a view - 8-14-2006 at 07:44 PM

i've always enjoyed seeing the sparkle in someone's eye when i called them, "Don or Dona".

Paula - 8-14-2006 at 08:21 PM

No argument from me on the above, it's all good clear information. My further question is about Latin names in general.

So Jose Sanchez Navarro marries Maria Valdez Llosa. Their son will be Carlos Sanchez Valdez? Their daughter could be Anna Sanchez Valdez? Anna marries Pedro Gomez Alvarez, and gives birth to Clara Gomez Sanchez, who is the granddaughter of Jose and Maria. If Clara weds Juan Vargas Salas, Their son could be Juan Jose Vargas Gomez?

Going back to Carlos, he might marry Lupe Murillo Alvarez, their son could be Jose Sanchez Murillo, and Jose's son could be Carlos Sanchez Fuerte? And then Carlos' daughter may be Maria Sanchez Trujillo? And her son could conceivably be Juan Bautista Sanchez? Etc. Etc.? :?:

Oso - 8-14-2006 at 10:59 PM

Yep

Oso - 8-14-2006 at 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo
Interesing! What can you tell me about the salutation "Maestro"? How is that used and when?

Thanks.

Maestro- teacher or master. commonly used as an honorific for teachers and * skilled craftsman, i.e.; mechanic, plumber, carpenter.

* I have had skilled tradesmen tell me there is a difference, that I was a "maestro" because I taught esoteric crap like another language in a classroom and that they were less and the pronunciation was different, i.e.; "maistro", but I don't buy it. I've always considered any person with special knowledge of anything to be a "maestro". Addressing a mechanic by that term should get you a point or two. As far as politicos are concerned, anyone with the equivalent of a BA is a "Licienciado", a BS gets you "Ingeniero" and a Master's gets you "Maestro" (Lopez Mateos was addressed by that title). A PHD is, like in the US, worth being called "Doctor".

Oso - 8-15-2006 at 07:59 AM

True. Although it would be correct enough, I haven't seen it in use either. It's always AMLO, Lopez Obrador, or El Peje. The same was true of Lopez Mateos. Maybe just plain Lopez doesn't get enough respect. Too much like "Smith" or "Jones"? On the other hand, I've never heard either Card##as, Lazaro or Cuahutemoc, referred to with both paternal and maternal surnames. I don't even know what the latter is in either case.
:?:

Paula - 8-15-2006 at 08:08 AM

Fox did well to omit the Quesada from everyday use in his name, as the one syllable sound is catchy and memorable.For Lopez Obrador not to use both names would have been politicaly foolish, especially as a PRD candidate.

Is obrador ever used as a noun form of obrar, like trabajador is to trabajar?

Don Alley - 8-15-2006 at 08:12 AM

My middle name is William, so often in Mexico I am called Mr. William or Senor William by officials who have access to my full name on documents.

Recently I flew from Loreto to SD on Aero Mexico. The lady at the ticket counter got a little sloppy, and typed in my middle name and I ended up with a ticket in the name of Debra Williams.

Well, I didn't want to fly as "Debra Williams" but an airline official said it's too late to change the ticket and don't worry about it. The same official checked my ID before boarding, holding the ID and "Debra Williams" boarding pass together as if making sure the names matched.

When I arrived at customes at SD and handed her my passport, she types in her computer and says, "um, Mr. Alley, did you travel under a different name?" :lol:

Having the first name Don is interestiing too.

Dave - 8-15-2006 at 10:14 AM

Good primer. But what interests me more is the origin of family names and their relationship to certain ethnic groups, specifically, crypto-Jews.

Latino custom of the inclusion of a mother's maiden name is a tradition born out of Sephardic Jewish practice.

Cypress - 8-15-2006 at 01:32 PM

Thanks! My southern upbringing has taught me a thing or two about respect. Yes Mam, Sir, etc. It's only being polite! Will do my best to express the same respect when down in Baja. Gotta learn the proper words in Spanish in order to be respectful.

bajajudy - 8-15-2006 at 01:50 PM

I always blush when some one says, Si Senorita. I think that it is expected of me. I will sometimes add....a wink and gracias. :dudette:

The wink is easy,

the blush is not :mad:

Yes, ma'am

zforbes - 8-15-2006 at 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Thanks! My southern upbringing has taught me a thing or two about respect. Yes Mam, Sir, etc. It's only being polite!

When I started getting "Yes, Ma'am" in English, I knew I was an "older" woman!

Oso - 8-15-2006 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zforbes

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Thanks! My southern upbringing has taught me a thing or two about respect. Yes Mam, Sir, etc. It's only being polite!

When I started getting "Yes, Ma'am" in English, I knew I was an "older" woman!

Ouch!

That one brings painful memory of that "transitional" age when mistaking a smile for an invitation, I would prepare to hit on a hotty only to be stopped dead in my tracks with a polite "Sir".
Pop!, Fweeeeeee... (The sound of a rapidly deflating ego).

These days if it WAS a flirtatious invitation, I probably wouldn't know what to do about it.

Oso - 8-15-2006 at 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Is obrador ever used as a noun form of obrar, like trabajador is to trabajar?

Not sure where you're going with this, but the only time I've ever heard the verb "obrar" used was in a doctor's office, with the meaning... well, uh... to defecate. :coolup:

--Larry

There is a rather long column of meanings for obra in my unabridged LaRousse. I suspect that obrador was an archaic form of the more common modern term obrero. Now, obrador as a noun means workshop (taller) and as an adjective means working (functioning). ...misnomer for a politico?...

Oso - 8-15-2006 at 04:56 PM

Don Don? :lol:

Oso - 8-15-2006 at 05:10 PM

BTW, I have heard that usage, even emphasis, of the maternal maiden name is sometimes a consequence of the prominence of that side of the family. Makes sense. How many people have you heard referred to as a "Kennedy", who don't have that surname.

On the other hand, people sometimes change their names. How many Hitlers and Mussolinis do you see in the phone book?

Over a hundred years ago, my suegro's family name was "Sanchez De La Barca". a rather aristocratic handle, but around the time of "La Bola" (the 1910 revolution), aristocrats weren't too popular and they all quietly became Hernandez.

Paula - 8-15-2006 at 06:13 PM

Zoe, I hear you about that ma'am thing! I jsut like to be called Paula. Hey you is my 2nd choice.

Oso, another interesting name is Hidalgo, an aristocratic name that is a contraction of hijo de algo, or son of somebody. It seems like there are fewer surnames in Spanish than in English, especially here in the melting pot, and maybe using the mother's maiden name helps to determine who is who.

Lencho, That isn't where I was going with that. Just work/worker. I just think Obrador is a fortunate name for the candidate of the workingman's party.

:yes:

AmoPescar - 8-16-2006 at 12:06 AM

OSO...

Thanks for helping us understand it! It's alway been a bit confusing to me.

Regarding the growing older postings...

I started feeling older when waitresses and counter help starting
giving me a SENIOR discount with out asking if I was old enough to
get it.

And...I'm still 10 years away from the age most give it.
But Hey...if they give it, I'm happy to take it.

Amo Pescar :bounce:

Oso

Baja Bernie - 8-16-2006 at 06:37 AM

And then their is our friend Don Jimmy Smith's wife---

Do?a Guadalupe del Socorra Romero Lopez de Smith--

Roberto - 8-16-2006 at 06:01 PM

And the wife takes on the name of the husband, but not like in the U.S.

So, in Paula's example:

Quote:

So Jose Sanchez Navarro marries Maria Valdez Llosa

Maria becomes Maria Valdez Llosa de Sanchez.

Another interesting example (like the preservation of the mother's maiden name through the son) of a "male-dominated and retrograde country" putting more on women than our "enlightened and modern" one. :lol:

Maestro

Roberto - 8-16-2006 at 06:07 PM

Oso - I have always understood the usage of maestro to be precisely what you describe (e.g. the mason who did my floor in Bahia was commonly referred to as Maestro Felipe) - until recently. A colleague of mine (Mexicano born in Tijuana) recently told me that calling someone maestro can be an insult. The specific example he used was referring to cop that way - as if lowering him to a more menial status. Does this sound familiar in any way?

[Edited on 8-17-2006 by Roberto]

Roberto - 8-16-2006 at 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Good primer. But what interests me more is the origin of family names and their relationship to certain ethnic groups, specifically, crypto-Jews.

Latino custom of the inclusion of a mother's maiden name is a tradition born out of Sephardic Jewish practice.

Jewish practice associated with mothers and their names? You don't say - I'm stunned and surprised. :lol:

Oso - 8-16-2006 at 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
And the wife takes on the name of the husband, but not like in the U.S.

So, in Paula's example:

Quote:

So Jose Sanchez Navarro marries Maria Valdez Llosa

Maria becomes Maria Valdez Llosa de Sanchez.

Or Maria Valdez de Sanchez or Maria de Sanchez for short , until Jose croaks, at which time she becomes Maria Valdez Viuda de Sanchez or Ma Vda. de Sanchez. Example: Tequila "Viuda de Romero".

And if Dolores Huerta marries Juan Cabeza, she becomes Dolores de Cabeza. :lol:

Oso - 8-16-2006 at 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Oso - I have always understood the usage of maestro to be precisely what you describe (e.g. the mason who did my floor in Bahia was commonly referred to as Maestro Felipe) - until recently. A colleague of mine (Mexicano born in Tijuana) recently told me that calling someone maestro can be an insult. The specific example he used was referring to cop that way - as if lowering him to a more menial status. Does this sound familiar in any way?

[Edited on 8-17-2006 by Roberto]

Yes. Although in this particular instance I totally disagree with the ranking in terms of usefulness to society. Maestro (a) is only for teachers, holders of MA or MS degrees, musicians or skilled tradesmen. The correct form of address for most cops you will encounter is "Oficial", unless you know his rank- Sargento, Teniente, Capitan, Comandante etc. Mexicans sometimes use "Mi Estimado" in an effort to suck up and negotiate a lower "bite". Calling a cop "maestro" is a bad move, even if the SOB probably deserves the level of kitchen scullion (P-nche), This said, honest, conscientious policemen do exist in Mexico and deserve respect. They're just hard to find and are rarely the ones who pull you over.

Roberto - 8-16-2006 at 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Yes. Although in this particular instance I totally disagree with the ranking in terms of usefulness to society. Maestro (a) is only for teachers, holders of MA or MS degrees, musicians or skilled tradesmen.

Una pregunta mas. So, if I am reading you correctly:

1. Cops are, supposedly at a "higher societal level" than teachers and musicians, etc., and you are lowering their social status by calling them maestro.

2. "Oficial" - is that an officer or "holder of official appointment"?

Dave - 8-16-2006 at 09:27 PM

As a musician and music educator, I have performed and lectured in Mexico, consistently referred to as 'maestro' and just as consistently, embarrassed by it. Universally, 'maestro' is reserved, at least in the music world, for major orchestral conductors and (classical) musicians of the highest order.

Is this an exclusive Mexican/Latin American tradition or typical of Spanish speakers everywhere?

Or perhaps PC fashion-speak gone mad? The colloquial use of 'diva' comes to mind.

Oso - 8-17-2006 at 08:19 AM

Maestro is commonly used in all classrooms as simply "Teacher" as well as the more familiar but still respectful "Profe", short for profesor. It is also used for orchestra conductors. I'm guessing that the cop interpreted it as the tradesman meaning. It's all a matter of context. In direct address to a cop, "Oficial" just means Officer and "Maestro" just doesn't fit. In third person, an office holder is usually referred to as a "Funcionario" or "Funcionario Publico" but not directly addressed by that term or "Oficial". Just plain "Se?or" is ok or if his title is known, he could be addressed as "Se?or Secretario", "Se?or Director", etc. (Se?ora Directora etc.)

bajalera - 8-17-2006 at 12:13 PM

Naming systems can cause confusion in the other direction as well. I've got a strange little book--a bibliography of Baja California publications compiled by a guy in TJ [can't provide its name since I'm not at home]--in which the authors of material in English are alphabetized under their FIRST names.

One well-known Mexican historian, who was apparently aware of the confusion early-on in his career, solved it neatly with a hyphen: Dr. Miguel Leon-Portilla has no problem.

shari - 8-19-2006 at 10:35 AM

Here in Mexico, nicknames are more common than names and it's always great to use them in a friendly way...maestro is very common for someone who is good at what he does whatever it is...and guys love it when you cll them jefe( pronounced hefay), everybody likes to be a jefe...but our favorite that goes a long way with any kind of official or professional type like the guys in the land office etc....is MI ESTIMADO...which of course means my esteemed friend...it is not very common but always gets a good reaction. And do remember that nicknames are NOT insults, mexicans just call it like it is (it's easier than remembering everyones name) so don't get uptight if you get called gordo-fatty, pelon-baldy, flacca-skinny, guerra-white girl, chaparro-shortie....etc....they don't get upset so why should you?

Paula - 8-19-2006 at 09:02 PM

....they don't get upset so why should you? ....

I introduced myself to a carpenter who was working on our place and asked him his name. He said that everyone calls him Flaco, but his name is Ernesto, and he wishes people would call him by his name.
I always call him Ernesto, but have needed to contact him several times, and when I ask his co-workers where Ernesto is, they don't know who I mean until I say Flaco. He is an excellent carpenter, and I think he deserves to be called by his name.
When my friend calls her daughter gordita, and I say she is bonita, not gordita, the girl's face lights up.
MexicanMasks, anessay by Octavio Paz, sheds light on this issue.

[Edited on 8-20-2006 by Paula]