BajaNomad - Stuck in Baja again

Stuck in Baja again

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 02:45 PM

The subject maybe beat to death, but my searches has not uncovered much. I was looking for a recent photo of a class "C" stuck on a beach. I was going to ask a question or two, but cannot find it.
Have you been stuck??
What technique did you use?
I intend to use HooK's suggestion and pre-install hooks front and rear in case I get help.
I have a feeling with what little I know about sand, I'm going to be in big trouble sooner or later.

Maybe a list for sand survival?
My big concern is for my motorhome. but anything at all is good for this rookie.

Diver - 8-28-2006 at 03:13 PM

#1. Don't go in the sand or tide flats with your motorhome !

With or without a winch, 2x8's are ok for the front wheels but sand grates under the drive wheels are much better to get unstuck. A really big winch could help if you had something to tie off to; a 4x4 tow vehicle to get help would be better yet.

If you get stuck, do not mess around. Air down the tires and place the grates before even trying to get unstuck. (Place the 2x's and grates before airing down and the tires will settle partly onto them as they flatten)

I have helped monster motorhomes get unstuck with my F350 a few times but, even with the winch, I couldn't have got them out if they were stuck good or if I had to pull from a soft surface. Your only hope will be a truck from the city or another diesel pusher.
.

David K - 8-28-2006 at 03:29 PM

Let as much air out of the tires as needed to cause them to buldge and thus 'float' rather than dig into the sand.

Bob and Pat Hale and Bob's brother frequently drive their full size (2WD) motorhomes onto the 'bottomless' sand beach at Shell Island... It is quite amazing to see... Bob thinks nothing of it... it's all air pressure...

Mind you, I would not do this without a companion rig along to wench you out if your tires didn't float the way Bob's does.

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
#1. Don't go in the sand or tide flats with your motorhome !

Thanks Diver, but,but,but Turtle and toad does it.

Love That Wenching !

MrBillM - 8-28-2006 at 03:37 PM

Nothing quite so satisfying as being Wenched out .

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Let as much air out of the tires as needed to cause them to buldge and thus 'float' rather than dig into the sand.

Bob and Pat Hale and Bob's brother frequently drive their full size (2WD) motorhomes onto the 'bottomless' sand beach at Shell Island... It is quite amazing to see... Bob thinks nothing of it... it's all air pressure...

Mind you, I would not do this without a companion rig along to wench you out if your tires didn't float the way Bob's does.

David... Do you know if Bob has spacers between his duellys so they don't rub at low air, also when on dirt roads.
I am making a list of things, because not much use for a motorhome in Baja if you cannot live on the beach. :biggrin:

I think I have previously written......

Hook - 8-28-2006 at 03:51 PM

.....about the degree of astonishment I had at how many places an aired down class C with duallys would go. I was dropping em down in the 20s and was actually getting across 6-8 inch sand in Vallecito wash. I mean, literally hundreds of yards of the stuff. I took my old 24 footer up Bow Willow, So. Carrizo and even Canyon Sin Nombre. Just a standard Dana 60 rear end, I believe.

Ya gotta learn your limits, though, Al.

Diver, how much are sand grates and how much room do they take up storing them in a rig? I only use 2x8s cause they are cheap, readily available and store fairly easy.

Diver - 8-28-2006 at 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
#1. Don't go in the sand or tide flats with your motorhome !

Thanks Diver, but,but,but Turtle and toad does it.

Maybe T&T goes in the sand but not the tide flats.
Sorry, but I didn't recommend that you play in the sand because you are asking the question. Once you have some Baja-time on your rig, you will be like T&T and won't have to ask. Until then, better to stay out of the sand !

A few years back, I happened upon a gentleman in a brand new 4x4 automatic suv, looking stuck in the sand near San Quinton. When I asked what was the problem, he said that the truck was stuck, it would not go up the little sand hill.
I didn't see where he was dug in and his tires were down so I suggested he get in and gently give it some gas while applying a little pressure on the brake pedal.
He ran up the rpm's and no wheel spin. I told him to release the brake and try again; still no wheel spin.
I asked what gear he was in and what the rpm's ran up to but he had no tackometer in his new SUV.
I got in and slowly pushed the gas peddle toward the floor and the thing almost jumped up the hill. He hadn't been giving it enough gas peddle ! He wasn't even stuck !
.

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 03:55 PM

I really want to thank you Diver. There is a lot of wisdom in your post. I know there are risks I will be taking. Only trying to learn the ways out if possible. I know there is a lot of knowledge on this board and if I only learn 70-80 % (oh will my brain Hurt) I maybe will avoid the big hook most of the time.

Diver - 8-28-2006 at 04:07 PM

My biggest recommendation for baja travel is to prepare as reasonably as you can and then just use common sense. You will likely not get far enough off-road that some nice person will come help you if you have a problem; it is the Baja way.

Besides, Rving Baja can't be that hard, even those dang Canudians do it all the time and they have frozen brains !! :lol:

I still remember the feeling of those tightly wrapped and nervous fingers squeezing the steering wheel on my first trip south. I also still remember the wonderful feeling of comfort and relaxation driving home on the same roads a few months later. After a road few trips, it will be your Baja too !

Why is it that I seem to start planning my winter Baja trips each spring, as soon as I get home from the last trip ?
.

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 04:28 PM

"Besides, Rving Baja can't be that hard, even those dang Canudians do it all the time and they have frozen brains !! "

:lol:

to funny
You forgot to explain "Sand grates" where do you get them and what are they made of?????? Please

Bedman - 8-28-2006 at 04:29 PM

Al,

If you have dually's on the back, you can almost always "Back out" of trouble. The dually's float pretty good. Not so with the singles up front.

Air pressure is important. I run 90 psi on all fours on asphalt. When I have to cross soft sand I air down to 35psi. But each tire and coach are different. Watch your tire as you air down. You'll see when it starts to flatten out on the bottom. ALWAYS air up as soon as possible and I mean " AS SOON AS POSSIBLE", not 5 miles down the road...but as soon as your passed the soft stuff. Tires don't like low air pressure and you will damage them.

I have seen many Mohos (all of mine and some others) stuck in soft sand. Most of the time I just backed out of the problem. Always walk the soft stuff ad get a feel for it. After you walk a few miles (100 yards at a time) testing, you learn what you can and can not do. Once you make the decision to drive further, don't have second thoughts half way through it and stop. Don't turn your wheels, Unless you HAVE to. Steady going wins the race. I have backed up 1/4 mile to get through soft stuff and then 1/2 mile again, on the way out.

Bedman

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 04:41 PM

Bedman... Thanks, I thoudht you could air them down on dirt roads so I won't try that. What you say makes sence. My highway pressure is 105# rear and 95# front. Thought I could get down to 70 for sand. 35# would be a lot better. Would the air bags help or hurt?

Oso - 8-28-2006 at 06:46 PM

There are 2 kinds of Baja off-road travelers; those who have been stuck and those who are going to be stuck. The latter category includes the former. Many old timers prefer a come-along to a winch. Finding one big enough for a MoHo could be an issue. As Bill says, a wench may be better. She may not get you unstuck but who cares? :lol:

MoHo blues...

Mexray - 8-28-2006 at 08:09 PM

...we used to tow our sand rail behind our 24ft E-350 MoHo (460 Eng w/C6 auto tranny) down to Pismo every chance we got for a long weekend.

One 3-day'er, we left on a Friday evening and go onto Pismo late - these were the 'old days' before the State got involved and took over the dunes!

Anyway, as we drove down the beach (still with highway pressure in all the tires, and pulling the trailer) in the dark, we kept repeating the Pismo Mantra...."Beware the Red Sand"! The 'Red Sand' on Pismo is the course, pebbly stuff that acts like the rollers on a chassis dynamo when you roll into it...AKA 'Quicksand'!

It was a holiday weekend, and there were already lots of rigs from So-Cal ahead of we Nor-Cal types. We had to thread our way through the various visiting sand Campos, staying above the high tide line, looking for that 'perfect' spot to park our 'fannies' for the week end.

You know what's coming, don't you - or you wouldn't be still reading...

About 2/3's the way through the Campos, I spotted a nice open area to wind my way through, and I was lured right into a camouflaged patch of the dreaded Red Sand!

My stomach hit bottom, as that unmistakable movement from the rear drive axle as it hops up and down on the sandy Dyno Rollers...Quick, floor that old 460 with the big old toilet bowl 4-barrel carb and try to power our way through the soft stuff! You guessed it, no way...before I could lift my foot we no longer needed the rear springs to keep us level, as the frame rails were now embedded in the sand to keep us from rocking! Hey, Patricia, what say we bed down right here for the night - looks like a nice neighborhood, and we have a nice ocean view - down there about 10 feet away!

The next morning, after unhooking the trailer, and digging some sand castle moats in front and back of the tires, we aired down as much as we could and tried again...but alas, 'No-Way, Jose' was back on the scene.

By this time, there were several other fellow sand rail buddies around with their folding chairs occupied and steered in our direction. Hey, everyone likes attention, right! Well we were the morning's entertainment for the coffee brewing crowd.

A couple of guys with big burley 4X4 pickups tried to pluck us back onto the top of the sand, but couldn't get enough traction - and those wimpy electric winches just couldn't move our 'elephant' E-350, even after we unloaded all the beer!

Then some guys with freaky looking Jeeps took pity and chained on to us using a PTO powered winch and some frayed looking cable. The used TWO other jeeps chained behind as anchors! That did the trick, and we popped right up on the firmer sand stuff! Those guys wouldn't take any of our money, but they sure were coveting our beer supplies! We decided we could always take the Sand rail back into town for some more beer, and those guys looked awful thirsty, so a trade was made and there were smiles all around. :yes:

Beware the Ides of March, and the dreaded 'Red Sand'...

[Edited on 8-29-2006 by Mexray]

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 08:21 PM

Great story Mex ray.. I am now a born again red sand guru, maybe??

Sand Grates?

thebajarunner - 8-28-2006 at 08:22 PM

I have no idea what a sand grate is!
However, a couple years ago this subject got thoroughly thrashed here and I gave the following advice:

Go to your local steel supply center. Ask them for two pieces of expanded metal, you will need it cut to size. Perhaps 18" wide and 4' to 5' long. They may not cut for you, and you will have to get a fab shop to do it for you. You will also need them to 'condition' the edges, as the cutting process will yield a razor sharp edge.

They are easy to bolt down, under a spare, under a bed, wherever. When you need them they are wonderful to place in front of the drive wheels, of course you need to remove the sand berm you have created, and drive out of the hole. You should get at least the length of the metal mat, and with some momentum even get out. If not, then re-place and keep moving ahead.

(Oh Boy!!! Here come all the queries..... "Hey Runner- what is expanded metal?")

Just go to a steel store or a fab shop, they will show you and you will have an "aha moment"

(P.S. I am part owner of Modesto Steel Co., so if you are in the area we can fix you up real quick!)

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
I have no idea what a sand grate is!
However, a couple years ago this subject got thoroughly thrashed here and I gave the following advice:

Go to your local steel supply center. Ask them for two pieces of expanded metal, you will need it cut to size. Perhaps 18" wide and 4' to 5' long. They may not cut for you, and you will have to get a fab shop to do it for you. You will also need them to 'condition' the edges, as the cutting process will yield a razor sharp edge.

They are easy to bolt down, under a spare, under a bed, wherever. When you need them they are wonderful to place in front of the drive wheels, of course you need to remove the sand berm you have created, and drive out of the hole. You should get at least the length of the metal mat, and with some momentum even get out. If not, then re-place and keep moving ahead.

(Oh Boy!!! Here come all the queries..... "Hey Runner- what is expanded metal?")

Just go to a steel store or a fab shop, they will show you and you will have an "aha moment"

(P.S. I am part owner of Modesto Steel Co., so if you are in the area we can fix you up real quick!)

Hey, Bajarunner.... Back in the 70's I bought the steel for my stock car hauler from you. I know where your place is and may take that drive to get the Ramps.
I thought we were talking about some sort of chain link, maybe even bicycle chain type link.

OOPS Why am I in the box again :lol:

[Edited on 8-29-2006 by Al G]

Diver - 8-28-2006 at 09:07 PM

Coarse expanded metal with a border works fine.
So does a set of punch-holed ramps like off an old landscape trailer.
(Thats where mine came from.)
Sounds like the runner can fix you up !

Al G - 8-28-2006 at 10:25 PM

Great info, but can you tell me how much water you pour under your tires? I have heard this is a common remedy.

Speaking of expanded metal as an 'unstuck'...

Mexray - 8-28-2006 at 11:14 PM

...what's the wildest kind of stuff you've see thrown under the rear wheels to try to get unstuck?

Many of us have probably used boards torn from a nearby fence, or stalks of corn from the field we've been 'wheelin' through, or maybe plastic Wal-Mart bags we collected from bushes in the area.

In the old days, you could use unfolded cigarette cartons, Burma Shave signs, and grandpa's overalls.

These days, one has to be more creative...like, laying many flattened Tecate cans along side each other - be sure to empty first! Or, if it's election season, politicians signboards can be helpful. Desert tanned animal hides could be utilized if they are sufficiently dried - the fresh road kill ones are too soft and squishy!

So...What's your best 'unstuck' stuff you've used?

Al G - 8-29-2006 at 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexray
...what's the wildest kind of stuff you've see thrown under the rear wheels to try to get unstuck?

Many of us have probably used boards torn from a nearby fence, or stalks of corn from the field we've been 'wheelin' through, or maybe plastic Wal-Mart bags we collected from bushes in the area.

In the old days, you could use unfolded cigarette cartons, Burma Shave signs, and grandpa's overalls.

These days, one has to be more creative...like, laying many flattened Tecate cans along side each other - be sure to empty first! Or, if it's election season, politicians signboards can be helpful. Desert tanned animal hides could be utilized if they are sufficiently dried - the fresh road kill ones are too soft and squishy!

So...What's your best 'unstuck' stuff you've used?

I cannot figure out why I am laughing so hard, because that is alot of good info. Cannot type anymore for the tears! :lol:

:lol

jimgrms - 8-29-2006 at 06:47 AM

I had carpeted a 1972 dodge van and had put carpet in it and pulled it out to get unstuck had to move it 4 or 5 time so never put it back in , so i would recommend a couple or strips of carpet, just lay it on the floor to store it

Taco de Baja - 8-29-2006 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

I have used brush and bushes before and it worked ok in a pinch.

When I worked as a geologist the 2x4 drill rig with duel wheels in the rear always had several rolls of chain-link fencing on board for the soft areas we always had to get to. They were easy to store, 6 feet long and no more than 2 feet wide when fully unrolled, much smaller when rolled up.

Maybe not the Wildest, but.............

MrBillM - 8-29-2006 at 07:14 PM

Many years back, I was out cutting Ocotillo and I had an old trailer built from a pickup truck bed. The tongue of the trailer was slightly bent and it was a "Bear" to back. I made a u-turn on a dirt road and, not wanting to back up, I went slightly off the track and the soil (riddled with Prairie Dog holes) collapsed, burying the truck. after trying rocks, brush, floor mats, etc for a good hour, I took the tailgate off of the trailer and used that. It worked after a fashion, but it would have been a LONG while before I got back onto solid ground. Luckily, a Mexican happened by and I offered him some dinero. He went off and came back with a bunch of friends. They did the job. The downside to that many people, though, was that it cost a lot more than otherwise. At the time, it was well worth it.

I once ran across a guy on the road below Puertecitos who had and older Toyota FJ55 LandCruiser wagon like mine at the time. On his full-length roof rack he had two strips of the Military Surplus steel tracks that they use for roads and landing strips. Worked great according to him.

Al G - 8-30-2006 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

When I worked as a geologist the 2x4 drill rig with duel wheels in the rear always had several rolls of chain-link fencing on board for the soft areas we always had to get to. They were easy to store, 6 feet long and no more than 2 feet wide when fully unrolled, much smaller when rolled up.

Ahh... finally someone with experience with chain link!
Question, I had plan to use this, but was not sure if it would not just spin up around your tire. Maybe I have been stuck in mud too often.

thebajarunner - 8-30-2006 at 02:41 PM

I still think the expanded metal is best, rolled up chain link takes too much space, two pieces of expanded metal will lay down under most anything, even your slightly overweight mother in law (oops, off topic)
Al, come on up and watch NASCAR- call ahead, we can get some ready for you.
And yes, probably half the race cars built in Northern California have our steel somewhere in them. My partner Don, who runs the place, is really in tight with all the racers.
Ivan Baldwin built every car from our steel, as did Gary Nelson. And lots more.

My best "stuck" story??

Easy! First time we ran the 500 (a really long time ago) someone told us to cut some carpet strips, like 18" x 4' and they would work real well.
So, first time stuck, out came the carpets, got them set in front of the rears, cranked up the big V-8 and spun those babies into little smoking balls of junk!!
Turned out that it was nylon carpeting (how did we know this stuff) and the spinning tires just melted them, like instantly.
YUCK!!!
From then on it was expanded metal - or 'sand mats' as we called them.

Hey Bajarunner......

Hook - 8-30-2006 at 05:52 PM

....which of the various permutations of expanded metal in this link would be the most economical, yet suitable for carrying around for getting unstuck?

Not necessarily buying from this outfit....theyjust have a good link.

http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/hrsteel2.phtml?page=expa...

Al G - 8-30-2006 at 07:37 PM

bajarunner,
Thanks for the invite and boy do I remember Ivan Baldwin. Went to his shop for some parts and advice one season. I had built a car with 3 point suspenion and long trailing arms. First one at 99 speedway. Later I was told, Ted Fritz had them. Ivan convinced me they would never work. Charged me to tell me that too. Later I figured out he was old school and went back to 3 point. I was really low buck, but did well enough to enjoy it.
Hoping someday to see rounder rounds in Baja.
I am more convinced I will use expanded metal. I still want to experiment with lighter weight. I already had these and never realized that they may work. They could be made of nylon so may suffer the same fate as your carpet. 2- 2X5 ft sections weigh 5-6 lb and stack to less then 1 cubic foot or flat 1/2"H X 4'X5'
I was going to carry them anyway for outdoor shower grate and table and chair in the sand. I have a section 10x10' behind my moho now so I don't have walk on gravel. Didn't think of them until you mention "nylon" carpet that lit-up in a ball of fire.

Al G - 8-30-2006 at 07:40 PM

Another shot

Al G - 8-30-2006 at 07:41 PM

One more....smooth side

[Edited on 8-31-2006 by Al G]

AmoPescar - 8-31-2006 at 01:38 AM

Just wondering...

Has anyone ever tried using ORANGE SAFETY FENCE?

I always wondered if it would be strong enough and have enough weight and body to drive on and get unstuck. It sure would be lightweight and easy to transport. I know it comes in different patterns, weights and types. They use it to keep back soil and snow, for temporary fencing and on construction projects, so it must be pretty strong. Not too expensive either.

The following web site has a link to fencing and some very interesting products which can be driven on.

http://www.eventdeck.com

AMO

Al G - 8-31-2006 at 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AmoPescar
Just wondering...

Has anyone ever tried using ORANGE SAFETY FENCE?

I always wondered if it would be strong enough and have enough weight and body to drive on and get unstuck. It sure would be lightweight and easy to transport. I know it comes in different patterns, weights and types. They use it to keep back soil and snow, for temporary fencing and on construction projects, so it must be pretty strong. Not too expensive either.

The following web site has a link to fencing and some very interesting products which can be driven on.

http://www.eventdeck.com

AMO

AMO.....I am familiar with this fence. I am sure it would suffer a worst fate then chain link.
The real question is sand grip. Bajarunner's expand metal is so far the only for sure answer.
My nylon squares that link together may or my not work. I will not know until my next trip and test them. The only reason is for weight. I will tell you this, I will not risk not taking expanded metal. This would be a mute question if the expanded metal only weighed say 10# each, but I don't know.
For most people weight is not an issue maybe, but people with Motorhomes it is a major pitfall. Some people lumber down the road unaware they are almost out of control.

Hook - 8-31-2006 at 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

I wouldn't think 1/4 ft sheets of expanded metal would weigh even 10#.

But I am thinking that they would be come quite misshapen after a few uses as the weight of the tire and the traction creates a slight U-shaped trough in them. Then, they could become problematic for easy storing.

At least the four foot lengths of 2x8 retain their shape. Also, no sharp edges and they arent as prone to scratching surfaces.

Expanded metal answer

thebajarunner - 8-31-2006 at 04:30 PM

Hook (and others) sorry for the delay in answering.
I went over to Modesto Steel at noon (I am not very active in the company- except when necessary)
The 9 gauge is sufficient, 12 gauge is more expensive and heavier.
Any size looks like it would work, but the larger the size (which means the space opening in the metal) then the less metal and the less weight and the less expense.
Also, you want the "standard" not the flattened.
The standard will give a better grip for traction.
I looked at a piece of 1 1/2", 9 gauge and that would suit me just fine.
As to the bending out of shape after use...
yeah, we had that problem to a small degree, best solution is to get on level hard ground, turn them over and run over them a few times, they sort of re-shape themselves.
(Plus, if you have to use them and bend them, you are so happy with the result that you don't mind that they are no longer pretty)
If you buy the full piece and shear your own then you will have a rough edge to deal with. We were lazy, and just put a strip of duct tape down the length of the cut, then folded it over and it covered the jagged edge. Obviously, if you use them then you probably have to re-tape.
Hope that helps.
(whew, the more you ask, the smarter I get)