BajaNomad

New passport policy debated

BajaNews - 9-9-2006 at 08:48 AM

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20060908-9...

Some say passports will ease crossing

By Diane Lindquist
September 8, 2006

New procedures expected to start in January 2008 that will require all U.S. citizens and foreigners entering the United States to have passports could help speed traffic through area ports of entry, Adele Fasano, the local director of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, predicted this week.

Many San Diego and Baja California political and civic leaders disagree. They fear that waits currently averaging more than an hour only will grow, thus harming the border economy.
“It doesn't take much to make that border wait totally intolerable,” said Ron Raposa, public relations director for the Rosarito Convention and Visitors Bureau. “We keep being told things are going to get better, and it just gets worse.”

Fasano, addressing a gathering at the San Diego Chamber of Commerce's Mexico Business Center Wednesday, conceded that a lot depends on the system that will be installed to read people's documents.

“We expect the technology will be developed so there will be no manual processing by inspectors,” she said. “That will provide a tremendous improvement in security. And, from my perspective, it won't slow down traffic.”

In the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the U.S. Congress passed a law to beef up border security.

The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative portion of the law mandates that the secretary of homeland security along with the secretary of state develop a plan for citizens of the United States, Bermuda, Canada and Mexico to present a passport or other approved document when entering the United States.

Airports and seaports are to have the system in place by Jan. 8. Land borders are to adopt the program Jan. 1, 2008.

But, said Kenn Morris, director of Crossborder Business Associates and a representative of the public policy institute San Diego Dialogue, “the technology that's been tested has barely accomplished the goals it's intended to.”

A recent U.S. Government Accountability Office study cited the possibility that wait times might increase, said Jesse Hereford, director of public policy for the Border Trade Alliance, a nonprofit business advocacy organization.

“While it's hard to find a U.S. citizen who doesn't support tighter security, there's a danger that it may come at the expense of border communities whose economies depend on vigorous and efficient cross-border trade,” Hereford said.

The GAO report concludes that the Department of Homeland Security and the State Department have a long way to go to implement their proposed plans, “and the time to get the job done is slipping by.”

Legislation is pending in a congressional conference committee to extend the deadline for implementing the program to June 1, 2009.

The San Diego Chamber of Commerce also is asking that the system be tested before it is put into effect, said Angelika Villagrana, director of the organization's public policy division.

Customs director Fasano said she does not know how much money will be needed to implement the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative. Funding, technological development, and what documents will be permitted and how they will be issued are under the State Department, she said.

“Obviously, there will be a tremendous demand,” Fasano said.

Taco de Baja - 9-9-2006 at 10:45 AM

Quote:
New procedures expected to start in January 2008 that will require all U.S. citizens and foreigners entering the United States to have passports could help speed traffic through area ports of entry, Adele Fasano, the local director of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, predicted this week.

Many San Diego and Baja California political and civic leaders disagree. They fear that waits currently averaging more than an hour only will grow, thus harming the border economy.
“It doesn't take much to make that border wait totally intolerable,” said Ron Raposa, public relations director for the Rosarito Convention and Visitors Bureau. “We keep being told things are going to get better, and it just gets worse.”



Exactly how does showing passport to the border guard take longer than showing a a drivers license or green card? :?:

Señor Raposa is blowing smoke.

David K - 9-9-2006 at 10:57 AM

Remember that anyone who passes the drivers test can get a driver's license... Where you were born doesn't matter... In fact, in California they try and register you to vote at the same time without ever asking for proof of being a legal citizen!

A passport is a photo ID of legal citizens, one item for the border gaurd to look at... A driver's license AND a birth certificate both would be needed to prove the same.

Don't get me wrong... I want a fast border crossing as much as anyone else... but the days of a the simple question asking you to say you are an American, without looking at a document, are gone.

Bob and Susan - 9-9-2006 at 11:08 AM

but requiring passports is a joke

does anyone relize how easy it is to get one

this is just another way to keep dollars in the USA

Passports

Cypress - 9-9-2006 at 11:26 AM

I'm with Bob, Susan and Taco de Baja on this issue.:bounce:

ArvadaGeorge - 9-9-2006 at 11:49 AM

The problems I see is on the Mexican side. If you get stopped going in and show a passport they will want to stamp it.
If you don’t take the time to stop and have your exit stamped. The next time you come in they won’t let you in because you never left;
And the Mexican Border crossing are notorious for not being prepared.
On several occasions I haven’t been able to get my Tourist card stamped in Tecate or Algodones

I have been requested to show my passport------

Barry A. - 9-9-2006 at 01:30 PM

----several times at the Mex. border, and the Canadian Border-------------they have never "stamped it" at either border.

And no, I did not know that Passports were easy to get----in fact, ours took several weeks. Are you saying that they are easy to forge? I thought just the opposite.

DENNIS - 9-9-2006 at 01:35 PM

Can you imagine how this will affect the night-life on Revolution Avenue ? How many of these kids are going to get a passport just to be able to drink at 18? Not that I care about the economy of Revouution Avenue, I dont. And if you havn't crossed the northbound border around 4 AM Saturday or Sunday, you have missed a terrible sight. Last chance for drunk macho before leaving Mexico, fights, puddles of puke all over the place, very aggressive lane changeing.........jeezo, what a nightmare.

Maybe the passport idea is a good thing. I dont care --- I have one.

Later .... Dennis

DENNIS - 9-9-2006 at 01:43 PM

Hi Barry --- We cross posted.

I dont think they're difficult to get. Just takes a little time which can be shortened to one day, I think, by paying more.
But, I can tell you from experience that you dont want to loose one. I recently applied for a renewal and never received it. They are sent out through the mail like picture post cards. No record of delivery. You almost have to take a loyalty oath to get one at that point. Makes no sense to me, especially today.

David K - 9-9-2006 at 01:59 PM

Hmmmm... I am not understanding some of this.... If you show a passport to a Mexican official, it is only to prove citizenship, they do NOT stamp your passport, they issue you a seperate 'Tourist Card' (FM-T).

It took about a month for my passport to arrive... pay more for expedited service if you want, but that is not 1 day... that would be amazing!

It isn't THAT easy... Usually need to make an appointment, you need an original or certified birth certificate and photo ID, plus you give an oath... and it is over $100 with the photos.

Send any mail that has a passport like it has value (ie. insured, priority mail, return receipt, etc.)... Again, I am not understanding the mail part, because you go to an area post office for a passport and if renewing, THEY take your old one... it isn't mailed by you. They give you get a receipt.

DENNIS - 9-9-2006 at 02:17 PM

David ----
Unless they have changed their procedure recently, they mail the passport to you, unprotected. The expired document is handed over when applying for the new one, as you said.
In my case, the replacement passport, that is, replacing the one which I didn't receive, came by registered mail. It is my feeling that they all should be protected in that manner.
No birth certificate required for renewal.
Years ago, in a more customer friendly time, 24 hour service was available. Im not surprised that it is a thing of the past.
By the way, the receipt which you alluded to has a phone number to call in case you dont receive your passport in a reasonable time. It's a 900 number just like the phone sex numbers. Try calling that from a pay phone. You cant unless you use a credit card. It was explained to me when I finally got through that the passport agency is making strides to be self-sufficient. So much for taxes.

Fatboy - 9-9-2006 at 07:49 PM

Pre 9/11 I was waiting in the Passport Office up in Seattle to obtain our children's passports and watched as some one was 'checked' for citizenship who it appears had no proof of such.

From what I could tell was that you brought someone with you to the office and they could then vouch that you are an upstanding US citizen (sp?). They then ask that person a couple of questions and if it all adds up you are issued a passport.

Yep, knocking down the terrorist one interview at a time....

rts551 - 9-10-2006 at 08:27 AM

remember - when using your passport to cross back into the US they not only look at it but scan it into a database for tracking purposes.

Wonder what they think about my coming and goings?

Renewal by Mail

MrBillM - 9-10-2006 at 09:29 AM

Renewal by Mail has been in effect for quite awhile. When I last renewed my passport by mail in 2001, the policy had been in effect for years prior (or so I was told). It's pretty simple and you receive back the submitted passport, voided with holes punched in it. Or at least it was in 2001.

The passport process is pretty simple, albeit more expensive than in previous years, provided you have a certified copy of your birth certificate. In the case of my spouse, no birth certificate, other than church, had ever been created. Her process took awhile longer since she had to acquire a letter from her county of birth recorder that no certificate had been issued and she also had to collect a number of letters from others testifying to her status. Still, it wasn't that involved and took less than 30 days to collect the required info.

wilderone - 9-10-2006 at 10:33 AM

So, $75 for a passport; $23 for a tourist visa; $50/2 weeks auto insurance; $18 RT toll road charge. Add $40 for a tank of gas and that's $206 and I'm not even having fun yet. Or rather, that has sucked a lotta fun out of the trip already. For $200 you could fly to Hawaii. There are some hotsprings on the Big Island that are FREE and FREE camping too; snorkling is great and the water is warm.

DENNIS - 9-10-2006 at 11:10 AM

Thanks MrBill ----
I didn't know it could be done on line. I guess most things these days can. It's my time of the year for immigration renewel .... I wish that could be done on line, but, no. With all the north of the border chaseing around that needs to be done, I've got it down to 1 1/2 hours. Not bad. One of these days, I'll have enough patience to get a Sentry pass.

wilderone -------
Seems like a lot of financial prep work, doesn't it. Passports are good now for how long? ten years? If one only goes to Baja once every ten years, you make a good point. I remember back in the sixties. If we could accumulate $150, we could stay in Mazatlan for six months. I miss those days.

Later .... Dennis

gnukid - 9-10-2006 at 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
So, $75 for a passport; $23 for a tourist visa; $50/2 weeks auto insurance; $18 RT toll road charge. Add $40 for a tank of gas and that's $206 and I'm not even having fun yet. Or rather, that has sucked a lotta fun out of the trip already. For $200 you could fly to Hawaii. There are some hotsprings on the Big Island that are FREE and FREE camping too; snorkling is great and the water is warm.


You make a point but let's take it a step further; Hawaii is among the most expensive places to visit or live in the U.S. in terms I recall it being ranked 2nd or 3rd most expensive place to live in the U.S. after N.Y. The flight is about 5-6 hours from L.A.X., the closest departure point versus 3 hours to cabo from LAX, more expensive to other islands, maui etc... The traffic in many locations is horrendous adding hours in traffic to beach trips.

The costs noted for the mexico trip you noted may be extrapelated to a 6 month period of travel or multiple trips. The passport cost is generally a given cost since you should have one and that cost is for multiple years. Baja Auto insurance may purchased for 6 months at similar rates to the 2-3 week rate. Visa is good for 6 months. Hotsprings or thermal vents at the shore exist all over Baja... etc...

So, go to Baja more often and watch your costs drop and your fun go way up.

I have friends here in SF who started the 3-4 club, they go to hawaii every week for 4 days and spend 3 days here-you buy a travel coupon book. Whew that's a lot of travel.

It's my 6th year doing 6 months a year in baja and I am having a lot of fun. Though my problem is I am having a lot of trouble deciding whether I prefer to go fishing or surfing or sailing or exploring or reading, or just plain ol' story tellin' and relaxing in my free time.

Hasta pronto en la playa amigo,

Paul

ElGato - 9-11-2006 at 09:18 AM

:rolleyes: Perhaps passports are becoming outdated. For instance if you live in Europe and are a member of the European Union country, which most are, you don't need a passport to travel between countries. You could travel from Britain to Italy and just show an ID card. I hope we can do something like that for travel to Mexico and Canada. I just want something I can carry in my wallet not an additional document.

wilderone - 9-11-2006 at 09:18 AM

"Hawaii is among the most expensive places to visit or live in the U.S. in terms I recall it being ranked 2nd or 3rd most expensive place to live in the U.S. "

True - but as a tourist for 10 days, if you know how to do it, it costs very little. When I go to Baja I camp in remote places and it costs nothing. The Volcanos Natl Park has a nice campground which is free. There are numerous county and state parks which have great BBQ and restroom facilities which cost $5 or $10/nt. now. When I went 3 years ago, they were free or $5/nt. There is a nice hostel for $17/nt. on the Big Island, with transportation service to Volcanoes; and another for $10/nt with breakfast. I know of an old sugar plantation building with rooms for $24/nt. There's a macadamia nut farm with free camping if you pick fruit for 2 hours/day. And no passport needed.

Anyway, the point is, for the thousands who want to travel to the famed Baja peninsula for the first time, I just think that's a big outlay of cash for essentially nothing. Yeah, you can use your passport for 10 years IF you're traveling somewhere where you need it . But that 6-month MEX visa equates to about $46 each year if you travel often. And the highway snipers, cops on the take, and Mex. 1 with all it truck traffic makes me think twice about going there now. A LOT more stress and expense associated with Baja travel now. And if the Mex. tourist bureau is paying attention, they need to consider the current realities. I just came back from a week in the Sierra Nevada - free hot springs, free camping, wonderful creeks, lakes, hiking, views, solitude, etc.

Paulina - 9-11-2006 at 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Hmmmm... I am not understanding some of this.... If you show a passport to a Mexican official, it is only to prove citizenship, they do NOT stamp your passport, they issue you a seperate 'Tourist Card' (FM-T).


Hi David,
When we got our FM-Ts in Aug. the offical at the San Ysidro crossing asked for our passports, gave us the paperwork for the visas, then he kept the passports while we went to the bank. When we returned from the bank, he then stamped our passports and gave them back.

This is the first time we've had our passports stamped and were a bit surprised. So now I guess since we didn't have them stamped upon exit we are still in Baja...so I better go start packing!

I wonder where would one have their passport stamped upon leaving?

P<*)))><

elgatoloco - 9-11-2006 at 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paulina


...............I wonder where would one have their passport stamped upon leaving?

P<*)))><


That is an excellent question. Last year we stopped at San Ysidro crossing southbound to get new tourist visas. We handed in our old ones that were actually set to expire in a few days and the guys in the office all looked at each other and then back at us with a look that said 'why are you giving these to us and what should we do with them?'. It was comical as one guy handed them to the next guy and he handed them to another and finally the third guy walked over to a desk and opened the drawer and put them in and smiled and said muchas gracias.

Paulina - 9-11-2006 at 10:47 AM

One time I pulled out the old tourist visas when applying for a new one. The official behind the desk got angry with me saying that I didn't follow correct procedure and return them when I left the country. He said that he couldn't issue me another because of my mistake. But then after I stood there for quite some time with a silly look on my face he gave in and took the old one and gave me a new one. He was not very happy about it.

This past Aug. when I handed over my passport I saw at the last minute the old visa tucked in the back, and quickly snached it out before handing it over. I didn't want to go through that again, and that silly look might not have worked twice.

P.

gnukid - 9-11-2006 at 11:09 AM

Brings to mind the question, if you fly in with FM-3 you shouldn't have to pay the FM-T tax included on the flight costs? How do you deny paying or get a refund?

Once a friend took the FM-T although he had a FM-3 later he got pulled over and arrested and when they checked he had two visas issued to his name which apprently is a major crime, he was sent home.

Finally I realized that you shouldn't carry your FM-T or FM-3 since you might lose it or get it stolen and be in trouble, and no one has ever asked me for any documents in BCS while cruising around but where do you keep it? when do you carry it?

I carry the phone number of the inmigraccion office where I register, in case I am arrested in a car accident and there is a question-they can check my book number.

The only problem I have ever had is, when I arrived by plane in cabo and the FM-3 documents were apparently not correct, (fault of the issuing location) and the officer got all huffy and said I had to go inmigraccion in La Paz to resolve it. I said I can't leave the Cabo station with invalid papers since I would be illegal and he agreed and corrected the errors with whiteout and apologized.

As a driver I never have anything stamped, ever. You are required to check in after 30 days of arrival with FM-3. Once a year they renew my FM-3. So my passport has no proof of my visits and departures and my FM-3 has no proof of my travel. No one looks at the US passport. By the way my US passport is issued in TJ and looks very funny.

I never carry my documents except copies of them in a manilla envelope in each car I drive and of course my drivers license. Weird.

DENNIS - 9-11-2006 at 02:30 PM

Cant you get an fm-t with a birth certificate? Where do they stamp that?
I made a copy of my fm-3 on my copier, page for empty pagewith a beautiful army green cover. I keep that in my car but dont carry around the original. I suppose if I was ever asked for it and produced the copy, I would be in trouble for counterfeiting.
This country has no defineable rules, only defineable penalties.

Bajamatic - 9-11-2006 at 02:46 PM

I guess i'm confused as to why there isn't a passport requirement to begin with?

DENNIS - 9-11-2006 at 02:48 PM

By the way ---
Those of you who think an fm-t will protect you if you have property here----dont rely on it. A while back, I was jammed up with immigration and they used this detail to deport me. They reasoned, " Although you dont stay in the country for the specified one week period [ used to be 72 hours ] you are situated here and please dont try to tell us that you are a tourist".
Almost makes sense, doesn't it.
Anyway, somebody wanted me out of here and almost succeded in getting it done.
I was down here for a long time without papers, even had a real estate business without complying. But, now I do. It's so much easier.

Later .... Dennis

DENNIS - 9-11-2006 at 02:59 PM

Why isnt there a passport requirement for U.S citizens to come home without a passport which wasn't required to leave?
Good Question.

Bajamatic - 9-11-2006 at 03:02 PM

So let me get this straight - you are a U.S. citizen living in a foriegn country and you have no passport? Good Call.

DENNIS - 9-11-2006 at 03:25 PM

Bajamatic ---

Who are you refering to? Me?

Read back. I mentioned I have an fm-3. Try getting that without a passport.

Dennis

Bajamatic - 9-11-2006 at 03:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Why isnt there a passport requirement for U.S citizens to come home without a passport which wasn't required to leave?
Good Question.


So what was the point of this comment then?

David K - 9-11-2006 at 04:40 PM

Wow... talk about living on the edge!

FM-T (Tourist Card) is for a tourist visit to Mexico south of the 'border zone' (any trip south of Punta Banda/Maneadero or south of San Felipe) for any period of time OR a stay ANYWHERE in Mexico over 72 hours (or perhaps one week).

IF you maintain property in Mexico (rent or own a home, keep a dune buggy in a garage there, etc.) or work in Mexico (even volunteer work) then you are NOT a tourist... but a foreign part time resident and the visa required is a FM-3...

TO get a tourist card you need any proof of citizenship (ie. passport or birth certificate with a photo ID).

THE U.S. has never required Americans to have a passport to return to the U.S.... However 9-11 changed everything! The new rule requiring Americans traveling to Mexico to have a passport may get delayed again, but in case it doen't, why not get a passport when you can budget it...? You still have time.

Bajamatic - 9-11-2006 at 04:50 PM

I was always told that you didnt need a tourist card unless you were travalling into baja sur - did that change? And FYI, I was once not allowed to pass north into baja norte until I located the tourist card for those of you who think the mexican federales in G.N. might not really care about the cards. It took a while and the guy was not going to let me pass until I found it. :o

David K - 9-11-2006 at 04:58 PM

The federal law said any stay in Mexico over 72 hours OR any travel south of the border zone requires the FM-T. Baja Calif. (norte) state tourism department made up new rules that got published, including saying all of the state of Baja Calif. (norte) was in 'the border zone', and you have a week allowed without a tourist card.

Because the ONLY place a tourist card is checked is at the border with Baja Calif. Sur on Mex. 1, that almost makes that statement sound correct.

However, immigration is controlled by the FEDERAL government, not the state...

The only official change from the feds is that you have a ONE WEEK FREE FM-T now available... But you still need the FM-T for stays over 72 hours or south of the 'border zone'... a free one or a paid one (good for up to 180 days... and for repeat visits, so the need to surrender it is no longer the case.).

gnukid - 9-11-2006 at 05:54 PM

To apply for FM-T in southern regions, you'll need to prove your timing of the border crossing so you must carry a receipt that shows you were in the US such as a US fast food receipt or the toll roads within the set period of time, e.g. 72 hours more or less for FM-T or within 30 days to check in for FM-3. At least that's what the inmigraccion boys tell me in La Paz. So feasably you could arrive in La Paz or Cabo without a FM-T and request one saying you arrived by boat or you drove straight down and all offices were closed in TJ and GN. Without proof they can say you owe a penalty which is accrued daily from the date you should of registered. Y por supesto necessitas las tres copias de Formata SAT 5 para FM-3 y otra cosas cuando llegas.

DENNIS - 9-11-2006 at 06:17 PM

Bajamatic ----

What was the point of your question?
What kind of an arguement are you looking for?

Bajamatic - 9-11-2006 at 06:39 PM

The point of my questions was that it seems kind of normal to require a passport when re-entering the states from another country. Thats all. I think not having to travel with a passport between two countries is a luxury, if anything. Times have changed - such luxuries removed when moving between intl boarders - kind of par for the course. Oh, and by the way, new regulations state that you also have to have one when leaving the country, so your smug response is also incorrect.

DENNIS - 9-11-2006 at 07:42 PM

Regulations require posession of a passport to leave the country, such as US to Mexico? What kind of crap are you reading? What you say, "seems kind of normal", is your fantasy world.
What was my smug response?
Tell me what it was.
Im never smug. Im up front with what I say and mean.
This whole thing started with you not paying attention to what was said.
You'll have a lot more fun if you join a conversation instead of fighting it.

ElGato - 9-11-2006 at 10:45 PM

:cool: A passport is not required to visit Mexico or Canada until Jan. 2008 if you walk or drive across the border. And there is a discussion ongoing to delay that. Part of the problem is the large number of people who walk or drive across from San Diego-Tijuana and vice-versa. This "luxury" has been going on since there was a border.

Bajamatic - 9-11-2006 at 11:48 PM

DENNIS:

"Why isnt there a passport requirement for U.S citizens to come home without a passport which wasn't required to leave?
Good Question."

I actually can't be sure I totally understand this question you wrote so I am not going to comment anymore on it, except that new regulations, if imposed, will require you to carry a passport if you leave the country into mexico, as well as requiring one to re-enter (seems logical to me). As far as I can tell, comment suggests otherwise? i'm not sure.

And of course this luxury has been going on since there was a boarder. AND? I am just wondering why having to get a passport is such a big deal? If you want to travel to Guatemala, you need a passport. So we share a boarder (with a host of issues surrounding that) and IMHO, why not require a passport to re-enter? One previous post suggests it is now too expensive to go to baja? These concepts do not make sense to me, probably because i have a passport, but I just had no idea that there exists a population of americans who feel a passport is a huge hassle, one that might even steer them to hawaii instead of Baja? Ok. Each to their own i guess.

[Edited on 9-12-2006 by Bajamatic]

ElGato - 9-12-2006 at 12:10 AM

:) I have no problem with a passport. My issue is that I haven't needed one for travel to Mexico and Canada for my 60+ years and in 2008 I will. The main problem with a passport is cost and portability. People in the E.U. have a credit card size document they carry in their wallet for travel and can come and go between any country in the E.U.without a passport. I hope that the U.S. will do something like that. Many people cross the border for a day and return. When the passport policy is implemented it is expected that the amount of people crossing for a day trip will be cut by 25%. This will greatly affect business on both sides. PS. I have a passport.

Bob and Susan - 9-12-2006 at 05:31 AM

i think day travel to Mexico will decrease by 75%

now think...

where will these people go to make their money to live?

do you think they will cross to the US legally?

will crime increase because of lack of funds?

Leaving the U.S.

MrBillM - 9-12-2006 at 09:44 AM

Many years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court, ruling on a case involving travel to Cuba, decreed that a U.S. citizen has the RIGHT to leave the country and go anywhere on earth that he/she pleased. However, the government DID have the right to enforce requirements and sanctions for and upon re-entering the country.

The principal question in that case was whether or not the government could enforce prohibitions regarding travel to a specific country, but the ruling also made it clear that the government could set no conditions regarding a citizen leaving the U.S., absent any legal proceedings which would prohibit that person from leaving a specific venue, of course.

wilderone - 9-12-2006 at 10:00 AM

Essentially, the government cannot infringe on your constitutional right to free travel. The Cuba thing was a question of a US citizen violating the embargo currently in place which prohibits US citizens from spending money in Cuba. So when a US citizen would be trying to return to the US, customs would be trying to determine if the citizen had actually spent money - i.e., stayed in a hotel, paid for taxis, bought trinkets, which would be the illegal activity -- not traveling to Cuba, per se. Traveling with a religious, humanitarian, cultural or arts-associated NGO is allowed, however. So customs assumes if you don't have documents to show that you are affiliated with some approved group, then you spent money, violating the law. If your passport isn't stamped showing that you entered or left Cuba (which Cuba customs is totally cooperative with), and you have absolutely nothing on your person evidencing that you were there, then Customs has nothing to act upon.

Si Si

MrBillM - 9-12-2006 at 10:26 AM

Since the question that arose on this thread regarded whether or not a citizen's departure could be conditioned on having a document, I addressed the "Cuban" court decision ONLY as it related to that point, feeling that the other ramifications were not on point.

Wilderone is correct.

The Attorney General's argument in the case was that the government could restrict a citizen's right to travel to specific countries deemed by the State Department to be inimical to the U.S. The Supreme court disagreed, saying that a citizen's right to travel could not be restricted in any way. If, however, it could be shown upon re-entry that said person had contributed to the economic viability of said countries, sanctions could be imposed subject to the "Humanitarian, etc" exemptions.

The bottom line is that any attempt to require a citizen to show documents (passports) when departing would run afoul of that decision. Of course, it is a different Supreme Court now.

As an aside on the Cuban decision, I later read an article in a sailing magazine promoting travel to Cuba that, upon entry, the Cuban immigration authorities would use a plain piece of paper to stamp your entry so that you could throw it away before returning to the U.S., leaving no evidence in your passport that you had been there.

DianaT - 9-12-2006 at 11:30 AM

Renewed our passports by mail this year---no problem and we find it easier just to have the passports. Our old passports have stamps from Mexico, but we haven't had one stamped for a long time.

Some of the people who really oppose the passport idea are the ones who live with one foot on either side of the border. For some families, it will be quite expensive, and in places like Calexico, the families are on both sides and walk back and forth daily. They are hoping for a cheaper ID card arrangement.

Diane

Al G - 9-12-2006 at 05:08 PM

Just got back from Post office and was told my new passport will have a new "chip" embedded on the last page that is encrypted and can be scanned for positive ID. Now why can they not put one in a ID card that is easy to carry like a drivers license. This old fashion passport was made in the day of the rich traveler and was carried in a suit jacket pocket. Wore one in Baja lately??

"New" Passport

ElGato - 9-12-2006 at 05:21 PM

;) The new passport with a chip has an RFID(radio frequency identification device) that can be rread from a distance id-ing you before you even know it. It can track your movements all over an airport and give out all info about you in the passport. It can be compromised if wrapped in aluminium foil. Eventually the powers that be want all tickets and bags taged with RFID's. All id such as drivers license, credit cards, insurance cards, etc will have RFID's. Welcome to
"a brave new world". A. Huxley was right!:barf:

Paranoia ?

MrBillM - 9-13-2006 at 09:04 AM

RFIDs read from a distance to keep track of citizens ? A new conspiracy to subjugate and enslave the populace ? The spector of an evil, all-knowing, oppresive government oligarchy ?

ALL of the RFIDs I've come into contact with in the business world are pretty low-power devices that can be read from a very short distance, sometimes only upon contact. Without FACTUAL evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the Passport RFIDs are the same. If not, the technology to ascertain that field of ID would be pretty simple to achieve. I'm sure that there will be Liberal interests trembling in anticipation of being able to do so and expose this nefarious plot.

Until I hear something from those Liberal Saviors backed up by FACTS, I'll simply assume that it's a more efficient way of processing necessary information a la the grocery stores.

For all of his literary Paranoia, Huxley missed the boat. Twenty-two years past and we aren't anywhere close to his predictions.

Speaking only for myself, I haven't gone anywhere that I would be concerned about the Government knowing. If it can help stop Abdul from blowing himself and a lot of others to pieces, I'm all for it. If you're DEAD, you don't have ANY liberties at all.

ElGato - 9-13-2006 at 10:15 AM

:cool: I am showing a site that will give you an idea of the future with RFID's, but it goes way beyond this. It will involve everything you do from clothing to food, from birth to death. This site is video and takes about 2-3 minutes to load but its worth the wait. When I first heard about this stuff I thought it was fantasy or bull but as a retired airline worker I have seen a demo of it. It's real and is eventually going into every aspect of our life and you won't even know its there. Here is the site:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/August2006/150806RFID-E...
htm
Please copy as shown. after *Enabled is .htm

ElGato - 9-13-2006 at 10:18 AM

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/August2006/150806RFID-E...

BajaGeoff - 9-13-2006 at 11:29 AM

There is a new passport that is going to be available that is a card instead of a booklet. The new passport card will be able to fit into your wallet, like a driver's license, making it easy to carry. It will be perfect for frequent travelers who cross land borders between the U.S., Mexico, and Canada. The card will be a less expensive alternative to a passport, yet it meets the requirements of a passport when traveling by land. The new card will use biometic technology meaning it will have a computer chip containing the information of the traveler as well as a digital image of the them. Cost is estimated at $50 but since the program is still in the early stages that could change.

BajaGeoff - 9-13-2006 at 11:30 AM

Forgot to mention.....they plan on having this up and running by the end of the year....

Prisonplanet ?

MrBillM - 9-13-2006 at 11:43 AM

I guess the name of the website says it all.

Assuming for a moment that the worst case premise is correct i.e. that the "Government" could track your movements on a daily basis to put to "whatever" purpose, where are you going and what are you doing that you don't want known ? I doubt they'll be installing sensors at the local brothel. That might be worrisome, but not to me, of course.

I've been sitting here thinking over my movements in the recent past and I can't think of a single instance where the government knowing that information would have worked to my detriment.

One could assume that those who are worried are doing something to be worried about .

Personally, I'm a little sick and tired of the ACLU cadre who are more worried about Abdul and Mohammed being given stricter attention at the airport than they are about the plane being blown up, restricting the occupants civil liberties for all time.

Passports/RFID's

ElGato - 9-13-2006 at 12:35 PM

:cool: The name of the website is Spychips.com. PrisonPlanet is where it was posted. The govt/TSA have a legitimate right to passport info,but the spying from afar seems creepy. The future of RFID's is with the private sector. Eventually almost everything we use or buy will have them in or on them. All private info will be available to anyone who can read it, in or out of an airport. Example- Most cars presently have data recorders like planes. This info is available in case of accidents or violations. In effect you testify against yourself.
Huxley was giving a preview of the future.:(

Still Uncreeped

MrBillM - 9-13-2006 at 12:46 PM

IF the WORST example that can be cited at present is the Data Recorders in a vehicle being used to determine fault, I remain unimpressed. Perhaps that's because I haven't had a chargeable accident since I was a teenager and the last time I got a speeding ticket was on an isolated I10 near Indio in the 70s when the speed limit was lowered from 70 to 55. I was doing 65, which I pointed out to the CHP was legal a couple of months before. I still got the ticket. I'll leave it to the fast and/or careless drivers to be worried about "testifying" against themselves.

I'm also not worried about ANYBODY knowing what foodstuffs or products I buy, what movies I watch, which books I read, etc, etc, etc.

What are you people doing ?

gnukid - 9-13-2006 at 01:17 PM

I am recording this... jajajajaja te cuides

ElGato - 9-13-2006 at 02:09 PM

:cool: I must say I am surprised by those that can live their lives with personal business in the open. I have aspects of my personal life while not illegal that I want kept private.
Los golpes diferentes para gente differentes.:D

Don Alley - 9-13-2006 at 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM

I'm also not worried about ANYBODY knowing what foodstuffs or products I buy, what movies I watch, which books I read, etc, etc, etc.

What are you people doing ?


Beware. people...
Identity Theft, year 2010:

Someone got a Safeway card in MY NAME, and over the last month bought 24 quarts of Cherry Garcia ice cream, 15 lbs of assorted steaks, 12 bags of Ore Ida french fries, four dozen donuts, 12 quarts of WHOLE milk, and four cartons of Marlboros. Now my health insurance premium has doubled, and my life insurance has been canceled.

Oh, and when I complained, someone in the government found me on a routine survelance tape, picking my nose and scratching my behind. They emailed it to my workplace, and posted it on a funny video site on the internet.

Uh-oh, I'm off topic here.
:lol::lol::lol:

Apples and Oranges

MrBillM - 9-14-2006 at 09:58 AM

You're correct. "Identity Theft" is a different topic.

The spread of Identity theft has come primarily as a result of widespread use of the Internet for Banking, Business and consumer purchases rather than Government Surveillance. Because I worry about ID theft, too, I am very careful about sharing critical ID info with any of the vendors I deal with.

Cypress - 9-14-2006 at 10:24 AM

Don's ID theft at Safeway. Jeez! With a diet like that they won't be around long.