BajaNomad - Okay--Huge Tragedy Affecting all of Mexico

Okay--Huge Tragedy Affecting all of Mexico

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Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 04:59 PM

So there is the subject and here is the disaster facing the Nation of Mexico. Obrador was proclaimed Mexico's "legitimate president by his supporters. In a moment of high theater, he asked his supporters to help him chose the date for his inauguration. After a show of hands they chose November 20--a national holiday commemorating the Mexican REVOLUTION--12 days before the legimate, elected PRESIDENT is sworn in.

Now that ladies and gentlemen that is a true tradedy and it will affect all persons residing in Mexico. It will be a true disaster for all Mexicans because it will push their aspirations for a better life into the c-cked hat that is worn by all THIRD world countries.

For those of you who know anything about the Revolution of 1910 you know that the first targets were the gringo owners of any amount of property.

When a country gets to that point they are beyond counting the dollars that some bring to their country. And they forget their gringo friends.

They wish to reclaim that what they have been told is theirs and no one will stand in their way once the tide begins to flow.

That is a real disaster and I hear NO one worrying or offering to help.

Think about it and then ask Jesse what is really going on in 'his' Mexico. We can rent it but it sure ain't ours.

Terribly sad!

[Edited on 9-19-2006 by Baja Bernie]

Doggies there are now more than 24 hits with no response

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 05:12 PM

Guess no one cares!
We'll just wait and see what happens next year! Bet as lot of folks will care then.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 05:13 PM

Bernie ----
The flowing tide of reconquista has been washing over the U.S. southwest for years now, Bernie, or maybe you haven't noticed. You're in the San Diego area. Why dont you take a drive through National city if you want to get a load of cultural interchange. Count the Stars And Stripes. It wont take you long to do that. What you do see every block is the Mexican flag.
Now, there's a disaster.

Dennis--I agree with you except that is a very minor part of what I am talking about.

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 05:20 PM

Their Mayor Inzunna is a slum lord that won't quit and yet he has declared his city an 'open' city to immigrants--thus insuring him of more renters who can not complain--Really not a nice man. He and his Mexican wife live in Conorado and yet he uses a phony address to remain the mayor of an American(?) City.

Heck look north to Los Angeles de Mexico where about 1/2 of the populations does not speak English.

Sadly, what is going to happen in Mexico will only increase the pressure on our country.

Dennis thanks for posting and somewhat refreshing my hope that the folks care.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 05:27 PM

Yeah Bernie ----

This is a topic which I should avoid here. My feelings on it are stronger than civil.
Los Angeles .... Oh yeah, I know what you mean. I was born in South Gate and couldnt go back today without bodyguards.

People do care, Bernie, many do anyway. The problem is that it has gone too far and caring is frustrating and ineffective.

Hook - 9-18-2006 at 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie
Guess no one cares!
We'll just wait and see what happens next year! Bet as lot of folks will care then.

Give us more than 12 minutes to collect our thoughts, Bernie.

I dont know what to say, really. Are you implying that there will be violence and the confiscation of lands aimed at foreigners on this day?

comitan - 9-18-2006 at 05:32 PM

Bernie

I have a lot to lose, and you are suggesting we do something about it. You just tell me what. And don't forget meddling in Mexican Politics can get you deported fast.

Taco de Baja - 9-18-2006 at 05:36 PM

It is true, Bernie, people do not care until a "problem" affects THEM. Most people could care less about all the varying disease and sickness in the world: AIDS, cancer, MS, Down’s syndrome, Tuberculosis, Parkinson’s, Porencephaly, Spina Bifida ....BUT, if a family member or they themselves are afflicted, well then, it is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in the Country, and why is the government not throwing $$ at it???

How abut the floods, the fires, the earthquakes, the landslides, twisters, riots....."My house was destroyed, and the government does not care about me!"

Maybe the government will wake up when a Revolution begins in the Southwest, but I will not count on it. :no:

Comitan

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 05:37 PM

Not me my friend!

I sold out and moved back to the US three years ago--Hated to do it after over 40 years but it is a wise man cuts his odds whenever he can.

Perhaps you should hope for a Newby to wander by and ask to buy you out. Just kidding--no hoping for you..

I have no idea how those who waited so long can cut their loses.

Perhaps Jesse has a few ideas.

Taco

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 05:39 PM

Spot on but the revolution will not start in the southwest it will migrate from Mexico and it will be hot.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 05:47 PM

It already migrated from the south. We, The U.S., have designed our own future insurgency.

Hook!

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 05:49 PM

No, I am not saying that it will occur on any day--What I am saying is that those people who have homes or investments in Mexico better start learning and caring about what is happening around them---It would also help if they could understand where, how and why the Mexicans who have been their friends for so many years will, of necesiety(I know it ain't spelled right but when I get into this heavy stuff I just don't care about the 'nice' stuff) of turning their backs.

I love Mexico and my Mexican friends but I understand the dynamics of what is going on and what will make them, at least up front forget me--in their hearts, as in mine that will never happen--but to survive sure.

This post is getting far to painful for me so I will just close for a while.

Saludos to those who care about the people of Mexico.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-18-2006 at 05:59 PM

Gentlemen: As I suggested some time ago, It would do you all well to read "Mexifornia" by Victor Davis Hanson. It will give you some different angles on this Discussion.

Several IF's;;
1. The young people of the States keep increaseing their Use of Drugs.
2 The Young people keep living in "Fear".
3. The young people keep thinking only of themselves.
4. The Liberal Professors keep there Stranglehold on the Universities.
5. The Media News becomes Stronger in their Control of the Minds of the Young People.

I do not like to use the word IF because " If Roberta had of Had Balls, We would have called Him Uncle Robert"//

I did not leave Loreto out of Fear- When all the Shops started Selling "Bong Pipes", I knew I did not want to live among Drug Addicts!

The Revolutiton will be contained in Mexico City as it was so many years ago by the Shooting of Students at the University.
Remember who has the "Guns".

AnonThe Preacher

EngineerMike - 9-18-2006 at 06:03 PM

Obrador, at last count, had support of about 1/3 of voters. However, 2/3 of those stated they would not support him in his hackneyed attempt to hijack government. That means only about 1/9th of voters support the meathead, er, I mean, uh, Representative of the Little People.

With only the kook fringe falling behind him today, and some of those likely to drift back to more law abiding positions over time, I think Obrador's phony crusade over a "stolen election" will fade to obscurity. Franly I think he blew a perfect chance to lock in some maleability w/Calderon by his nonsensical ravings, and that he could have had significant sway in the new government if he had not attempted to start another revolution. Now, as a quack, he is out of the closet.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 06:15 PM

Good points Skeet ----
Mexifornia is a good read, an eye opener for sure. Something more current is "State Of Emergency" by Patrick Buchanan. It will scare the crap out of you even if you already know the material.

I dont believe anything will happen against expats here, at least not until anarchy becomes a reality and I dont see the Mexican government letting that happen. But, if remittances of How many billions? are stopped from the U.S., many things could change.

Oh yeah, Bernie ..... Stir the pot and go to bed. We'll get you tomorrow.

Who has the guns? The cartels have the guns.

Dennis

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 06:31 PM

OK nomads ---- allow me to pose a question. Im not trying to hijack Bernies thread but he went to bed and he can have it back when he gets up.

What with the recent proliferation and sophistication of police agencys in Mexico, and the tolerance for privacy invasion in the states as tacit acceptance of the practice, does anybody feel that this site is monitored?

Im not paranoid nor suggesting that we should be. Im just curious.

La Bronca

Loretana - 9-18-2006 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

[And what percentage of the population is that at this point? I may be a fool, (we'll discuss that possibility in 6 months) but my suspicion is that in the short run, it's not going to affect life in Baja in any noticible manner.

--Larry

Lencho, you are absolutely correct, in my opinion. The majority of the AMLO supporters are in southern Mexico.

Baja has always been isolated from the mainland due to it's obvious geographic location.

Lopez Obrador's support is waning. The Chilongos (residents of Mexico City) are fed up with his tactics. Don't think that the internal security service is going to sit idly by while AMLO attempts to execute his coup d' etat.

There will be a showdown, and the powers that be will remain on top.

villadelfin - 9-18-2006 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexican leftists, who say the July 2 election was stolen, declared their candidate their "legitimate president" on Saturday, a symbolic move reducing the risk of street protests to make the country ungovernable.
Aides said Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who narrowly lost the election, would use mainly political means rather than widespread protests in leading opposition to conservative President-elect Felipe Calderon.
Tens of thousands of leftists meeting in the capital's vast downtown central square rejected a proposal to name Lopez Obrador head of a civil resistance campaign that would have marked a more aggressive strategy to try to stop Calderon from ruling.
The election sharply divided Mexico along class lines, a rift made worse by Lopez Obrador's fraud accusations.
There will still be protests but fears of major unrest or violence have eased in recent days as Lopez Obrador has apparently opted for an organized political movement to challenge Calderon rather than cause chaos on the streets.
Supporters voted to swear Lopez Obrador in at a ceremony on November 20, just days before Calderon takes power. Lopez Obrador said he would name ministers to his parallel government and that it would operate from voluntary donations.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-18-2006 at 06:45 PM

Dennis:
It makes me No Nevermind if it is Moniteoed.

Please do Not think that I, with a Child/ Friend Captured by the Enemy would Hesitate to take a Pair of Pliers to his Balls, or shoot a "Red Pepper Pepsi" up His Nose to try to get him or Her to tell me the Location of My Friend/Child.

I would, if elected President of this Great Country do "Everything, and I mean Everything to Protect the People of this Great Country- Cowards ,Wimps, Draft Dodgers,Poor, Rich, Drug Addicts, Welfare People , including listening to Cell Phnoe Messages of anybody, anywhere.

Dennis it seems like about Half of this Great Country is living in a Dream-Will probabley take another 911 or a Dirty Bomb in a Crowded City, killing Thousands of People to Wake them up to the Fact that we are in a War!!!

"All is Fair, In Love and War"

Anon The Preacher

puhlease

k1w1 - 9-18-2006 at 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie
So there is the subject and here is the disaster facing the Nation of Mexico. Terribly sad!

[Edited on 9-19-2006 by Baja Bernie]

maybe this Burnie should speech-write for W. ?? sheeez

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 06:57 PM

I see what you mean, Skeet but could you be a bit more specific?

Just kidding Skeet. Your point is clear and I fully agree with it.

You do realize my reference was to the Mexican Government, Right?

Dennis

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 07:04 PM

Power naps are great and thanks for handing my post back to me--I don't know how others would think of that but I guess I will just plow ahead.

I do not believe that Obo's power is just in the south of Mexico-He had control of Mexico City and the most leftist group of professors in the world who control the University of Mexico--They were the folks that the American press was quoting a month ago and they will again.

Never have a doubt that the world of left leaning folks are very strongly for this guy and will do everything to cause the downfall of the legal government of Mexico for their own private gains.

Now you folks who wish to can bash me for being reactionary--It is not true but what does that matter.

I care only about what this powergrab will to to my friends--the Mexican people. Those in power and those wishing power could care less. Sub Commander Marcos and I may have been friends in an other world.
Unfortunately, he was a professor who had his head in the clouds as many do on this board.
If I missed a bunch of stuff I'll check back later.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 07:06 PM

I yield the floor .....

Loretana

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 07:22 PM

Hi!

If I remember correctly you made the point that Baja was always seperated from the powers that be in Mexico proper.

You are exactly right and that is why they supported the Americans in the war of 1846.

Sadly! the Americans reniged on their promises and many of our supporters were killed by those Mexicans who remained loyal to Mexico City.

The reason that so many Californios in Baja sided with the U.S. was because all those idiots in Mexico ever thought about was taxing the people and never helping them.

Funny, Many of the miners from Comodu sided with America and 500 of them were removed by ship and deposited in Monterry (to keep them from being killed). Oh! The funny part they were all miners and guess what happened in Northern California in 1848-Yep! And a bunch got rich. Many of them had the name of Smith.

Why do I know this stuff--heck I write books on Baja and its people. Yep! I do know what I am talking about. AT least sometimes!

bajabound2005 - 9-18-2006 at 07:25 PM

How is Obredor financing his "new and seperate" government?

Good Point

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 07:28 PM

I can't really say except the folks that openly support him have nothing!

You tell me.

Al G - 9-18-2006 at 07:32 PM

"operate from voluntary donations."
Not sure I have the right name, but does anyone know Hugo Chavez. He may see an opportunity Just one point.
I think most would agree that a country, that has come as for as Mexico, will not be changed by a minority of " i want something for nothing" people. Mexico faces a class problem that only time will solve. This is not the first country that has faced this. I am sure many of you can name others. The big thing is economics. The people (majority) has seen a major change in their financial future and I doubt seriously if they will care what happens to Obrador. All it will take is one unlawful act and he will be another Bin Laden.
This has amazed me. I thing Al Gore gave Obrador his hand book on whining and grand standing.
Stop worrying, time will make a lot of difference. I doubt if this will ever be mentioned again after Calderon is in office.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 07:33 PM

The same way George does it ...... sell bonds.

Dennis we are speaking of Mexico--who is Jorge?

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 07:37 PM

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 07:38 PM

You know ..... Jorge Boosh

Dennis-I will never tell!

Baja Bernie - 9-18-2006 at 07:49 PM

SDRonni - 9-18-2006 at 07:59 PM

Well, CRAP!!! You mean the Mexicans may take back our new condo before we even get a chance to live in it for a while? My timing sure does leave something to be desired.....if this place is actually finished when it's supposed to be, we may be afraid to pay the other 70%........ Seriously, though, wouldn't it affect them all negatively if we gringos stopped going there and purchasing???? My questions are purely selfish and self-centered, I know....after all, it IS a good chunk of our retirement money going into this second "vacation" home.....so, please don't beat me up...remember, I'm a newby...be nice.....

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 08:12 PM

Let me expand on my terse reply to the question "How will AMLO finance his government"?

My reply meant to say, " Just like George Bush finances the dealings of the U.S. government. They pump up the national debt by selling bonds with generous interest rates. In fact, bond debt is the national debt. Trillions of dollars but, the beat goes on. Need more money to pay off the bonds? Sell more bonds.
Im certainly not suggesting seriously that AMLO would sell bonds but, if he was a viable candidate for a power grab, there would be people there, such as Hugo Chavez or Fidel to buy them.

That's all

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 08:18 PM

SDRonni ---
It would affect the local real estate market but I believe that overall importance of expatriate private investment and living expenditure is grossly over-rated. Besides, when the trade off for gringo dollars is a loss of Mexican pride, the pride will win hands down.

Dennis

bajabound2005 - 9-18-2006 at 08:19 PM

Dennis, AMLO has no way to do this...or does he? Oh, to the folks in Chiapas and Oaxaca who have no $$ to start with? This story is just crazier and crazier the more one hears. The good thing is that Baja is like being in Hawaii or Alaska...what happens on the mainland doesn't much affect you. Far as I can tell from talking with many locals in Ensenada....they don't know or care who the Presidente is...I think our houses are safe...sort of.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 08:25 PM

No BB, he cant sell anything to his Chiapas constituency. They're still eating rocks and twigs. But, his following is much more far rangeing than that.
My refrence above was to foreign investment, if you will. Loans from like-minded despots.

bajaguy - 9-18-2006 at 08:26 PM

well...........since you asked.......it seems to me that after 9-11 and the border was closed, the Mexican economy suffered from lack of US trade (and dollars). I think that if there were any repercussions regarding nationalization/property issues, the dollar would be a great equalizer........remember, you can't eat pride, even if you cover it with salsa.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 08:37 PM

I've never met a Mexican who wouldnt starve himself to death when his national pride is at stake.

Do you remember Operation Intercept, when Nixon was going to stop drugs from coming across the border by practically dismantleing every car that went through? The tourism industry in northern Baja was devistated. There was, at least, a six hour wait at the border and the streets were empty. But, they survived. They did other things. They waited. But, what they did most was develope a heartfelt hatred for the United States.
I dont have to mention how Nixon did.

DENNIS - 9-18-2006 at 08:44 PM

Im sure you all noticed that my last post was a milestone. It took away my youth. Im no longer a Junior .... and a long way from being a Senior. You're all just going to have to put up with me for the next 400 posts being a.......well.........a nothing.

OK ---cut out the applause

FARASHA - 9-18-2006 at 10:46 PM

A NAIVE Question (I'm not a business person, but concerned about friends who are) - what would happen to those Gringos who own Business in BC?
Like people who've invested ALL their Pennies?

comitan - 9-19-2006 at 07:05 AM

Hey all the sky is not falling, Yet.

VERY interesting thread...

M - 9-19-2006 at 07:18 AM

WHATEVER the motivation, political or otherwise,it always seemed to me risky business to buy in Baja. I would consider a long lease with an honorable family first. Anybody remember Punta Banda?
A HUGE group of retirees who sunk everything into their homes lost all and had to just walk away from them. I remember thinking... Didn't any of those guys have a match? I would have given back a pile of ashes!
But, that's just MHO.
M

Taco de Baja - 9-19-2006 at 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SDRonni
Well, CRAP!!! You mean the Mexicans may take back our new condo before we even get a chance to live in it for a while? My timing sure does leave something to be desired.....if this place is actually finished when it's supposed to be, we may be afraid to pay the other 70%........ Seriously, though, wouldn't it affect them all negatively if we gringos stopped going there and purchasing????

There is apparently no equivalent fable in Mexico about El ganso y los huevos de oro

SDRonni - 9-19-2006 at 08:30 AM

How are those of you who are living in Baja full-time feeling about all of this? :?:

Government Spying

MrBillM - 9-19-2006 at 08:58 AM

Since the Government is known to waste resouces on a phenomenal level, I wouldn't be surprised if they were eavesdropping on this forum, although it would be a complete waste of time given our inability to have any effect on important events.

Unlike Skeet, I would be worried about being "moniteod". I walk better with all five on each foot, if that's what he means. However, I'm not worried about being monitored.

As I've said before in other venues, I am not the least bit concerned that the government might be checking my writings, phone records, banking and purchasing habits or keeping track of those I associate with and where I travel. I can't think of a single incident in the last twenty years or more where the government having such knowledge would have been a problem. Heck, I even obey the speed limits (in the U.S. anyway) now.

If increased government surveillance is going to keep Americans from being killed or maimed in a terrorist attack, I'm all for it.

Back to the original subject. When I was young, I never could understand when I saw expatriates remaining in a foreign country where they had settled (Kenya, Haiti, Cuba, Vietnam, etc) until it was too late to leave safely. Now, having spent so many years in Baja, I understand not wanting to give it up. If things go to crap in Mexico someday, I'll be one of those still hanging around, hoping for the best.

comitan - 9-19-2006 at 09:01 AM

If someone didn't bring it up, we would never be concerned. There is still much building and selling of homes in Mexico. If you look at the header advertisement for Platinum capitol, if they were worried do you think they would still be doing business in Mexico. I personally think that some people like to stir the pot.

12 year home owner La Paz

Well said, Mr. Bill---------

Barry A. - 9-19-2006 at 09:02 AM

Dave - 9-19-2006 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SDRonni
How are those of you who are living in Baja full-time feeling about all of this? :?:

At this point, AMLO is nothing more than comic relief. Every day he becomes more and more marginalized. Elected representatives of his party are abandoning him, in droves.

The real losers are Mexico's poor. They hitched their wagon to a stubborn mule.

Everyone, Gringo and Mexicano alike, are damn lucky he wasn't elected.

SDRonni - 9-19-2006 at 10:11 AM

Did you hear about the coup d'etat that just happened in Bangkok? Do you think anything like this could happen in Mexico? Good Lord! My years of political apathy haven't prepared me for all this uproar! In the words of Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

Stirring of the Pot

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 10:18 AM

Post by Dennis
“SDRonni ---
It would affect the local real estate market but I believe that overall importance of expatriate private investment and living expenditure is grossly over-rated. Besides, when the trade off for gringo dollars is a loss of Mexican pride, the pride will win hands down. “

Dennis

Post by Dennis
“I've never met a Mexican who wouldnt starve himself to death when his national pride is at stake.

Do you remember Operation Intercept, when Nixon was going to stop drugs from coming across the border by practically dismantleing every car that went through? The tourism industry in northern Baja was devistated. There was, at least, a six hour wait at the border and the streets were empty. But, they survived. They did other things. They waited. But, what they did most was develope a heartfelt hatred for the United States.”

Dennis I remember Operation Intercept very well. The Mexicans responded to Nixon with a stated policy that they would inject (with a needle)all tourists crossing the border to assure that they would not be spreading some disease (don’t remember what) Knowing the Mexican people the wife and I headed south and had Baja all to ourselves—except of course the Mexicans and these were the folks we wished to visit anyway—Wrote a story about the trip in my first book—no plug—I didn’t even mention the name of the book.

You are so right about PRIDE and the Mexican people (sometimes I wish we Americans still had as much pride in our country).

Post by Taco de Baja

“There is apparently no equivalent fable in Mexico about El ganso y los huevos de oro”

I believe that what you are saying is very important to understand how the Mexicans look at things vs how we tend to see the same things. Would you please fill it in so that we can better appreciate exactly what you are getting at.

Okay! I started this post for many reasons and I suppose one of them WAS to ‘stir the pot’ and get people who care about Baja and its people to start to think about more than themselves. To really survive, long term, we all need to not only see what is going on around us but we also need to think about how things and actions of others may impact our insular lives.

I am somewhat of an historian (nothing like that Nomad known as AA) of Baja and of necessity Mexico proper. I have written three books because I have a great desire to share what I have learned about Baja (heck the plates on my car are “Mi Baja”) and how history has played out here in the past and what impact it did have on those foreigners who have lived, owned ranches, and ran their own business here. If you go back to the Revolution you will find that Pancho Villa’s guys rode across from Sonora and chased many foreign businessmen and ranchers out of the country. Many of you are familiar with the stories of the Meling’s and how they fought Villas folks to a standoff at their ranch and gold mines.

As are most old timers, I am aware that the British and the Americans who ran railroads and pumped oil from their wells in Mexico and thought business was just ‘super’ until Presidente Card##as nationalized their businesses and never paid them for their property.

Everyone who has spent a minute in Baja knows that there have been several waves of gringos losing their homes, mostly in Baja Norte.

As Dennis pointed out the one overriding thing I have learned about the Mexican Nation and its people is that pride is their most favored possession—in some cases their only possession. To say that the ‘pretender’ will just fade away is to completely ignore the history of Mexico.

I believe Larry spoke of the ‘short term’ future and that it would have very little impact on Baja. I guess as old as I am I should only be concerned with the short term but I can not.

Okay! Here is where I convince many that I am just a nutty old man who thinks history is to be learned and that it repeats itself in more or less regular patterns. My reading of history tells me that because of many things (including unabashed pride on one side and a very large lack of it on the other side) that one day Mexico and Latin America will invade and conquer what is now called the United States of America. Sure we have the weapons to make this impossible but we sure do not have the leaders, from ‘any’ party with the huevos to defend our country.

Give it some thought. Pot stirred!

In spite of all of this I still have my Sentri pass and visit my many friends in Baja on a regular basis. I can never forget the people I spent more than half of my life with.

Viva Baja!

DanO - 9-19-2006 at 10:20 AM

What I've been hearing from locals in Ensenada and TJ mirrors what Dave said. As Comitan noted, the sky isn't falling.

The one comment I'd make

Hook - 9-19-2006 at 10:21 AM

is that the supporters of AMLO are not completely people who want "something for nothing", as someone stated. Many are the working poor as well. I think AMLO's message of government corruption and collusion with the superrich at the expense of creating any significant middle class certainly rings true. Heck, it's not far removed from the message that Fox used to get elected and Calderon has already gone on record as saying the plight of the poor is his #1 priority.

Of course, how to get there is the difference between the two.

I'm in the camp that thinks AMLO blew his chance to be a significant force for change when he began his "taking' it to the streets" campaign on a national level.

He cudda had class......he cudda been a contenda. ........He could have had a cabinet post.

Now, he may hang.........or is Mexico still using firing squads? In any event, if he continues with this parallel goverment, there will be bloodshed. Just arresting him is bound to spill some.

QuePasaBaja - 9-19-2006 at 11:26 AM

Do any of you really think for one min that the US government will allow that guy to get out of hand anywhere near the border?

With the current " Administration " They will just have him killed.

If that were to happen

SDRonni - 9-19-2006 at 12:01 PM

wouldn't it just arouse his followers more? And wouldn't another one like him just step up to the plate?

Doubt that either Government will "kill" him

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 12:09 PM

The time for that, if there was a time, would have been a couple of years ago. He sort of parallels Lenins course to power in Russia (come to think of it a lot of things are similar). Germany and Russia could have killed him before he hit the national scene but not after.

I just hope that all of you naysayers are correct!

Bajamatic - 9-19-2006 at 12:10 PM

I find it somewhat ironic that your Plates read "MI baja". It's "SU BAJA" to you pal.

bajamatic

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 12:14 PM

I doubt seriously that I am your 'pal.'

It is Mi Baja and I do know what it means--pal!

Bajamatic - 9-19-2006 at 12:17 PM

didnt realize you were a mexican national. My apologies.

comitan - 9-19-2006 at 12:23 PM

My favorite fish to catch Dorado, to eat Cabrilla. :lol:

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 12:57 PM

Bernie ----

Mexico is already invading and conquering the U.S.. They are doing that without firing a shot. But, I believe you're right. The day will come when shots are fired but, it will start from within, not a wave from the south.

Dennis

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 01:10 PM

Shots have been fired on a number of occasions by guys wearing Mexican Army uniforms--Mostly on our side of the Arizona and New Mexico Border. Just have to protect those drugs smugglers.

Our Border guys are complaining about always being out-gunned.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-19-2006 at 01:13 PM

Wow! This is a Great Thread1
I am learning a Lot about Baja Norte;
I can only relate my Experience with Baja Sur Since 1968.

Bernie: Was there not a Canidate for President Shot to Death on the Streets of TJ some years past?

Did not the People of Punta Banda fall to the "Failure to Investigate the Title of the Property they Purchased??-Let the Buyer Beware.

Is it not a Known Fact that a Group of Leftist from Mexicao City were and Are still Behind the Chapias Affair??

It is a most difficult and slow Process to change the Mexican People.

I will continue to Love Baja and its People until they Spread my Ashes over the Sea Of Cortez somewhere around Del Efonso Isla off of San Nicholas .

Fear is a Sign of Imaturity.

Skeet/Loreto

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 01:29 PM

Good points Skeet ---

Let me know when they spread your ashes so I'll know where to keep my hook out of the water for a few days.

The Punta Banda expropriation went way beyond a "Failure to investigate". It was more a "Decision for sale" affair.

Fear is also an alarm for self-preservation. I guess it's many things.

Bernie ---
I wasn't refering to the border. The border is a war zone. I was talking about urban areas in the southwest that are now engulfed in the culture of Mexico.

Dave - 9-19-2006 at 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
The day will come when shots are fired but, it will start from within, not a wave from the south.

Agreed. Mexico's Southern poor have nothing, never did. Revolution, when it comes, will only succeed if supported by those who have had...and lost.

When the oil runs out, I'll be long gone.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-19-2006 at 01:43 PM

Dennis:
If you have not already done so;
Bordering on CHAOS--Andres Oppenheimer
FIRE and BLOOD--T. R. Fehrenbach

Make sure the Hook is Large as you know about "Everything is Big In Texas"

Skeet

Just a bit more complicated

Dave - 9-19-2006 at 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Did not the People of Punta Banda fall to the "Failure to Investigate the Title of the Property they Purchased??-Let the Buyer Beware.

False title records were recorded and banks issued trusts based on falsified title.

Plain and simple, Punta Banda homeowners were swindled. If they were guilty of anything it was false hope. The case was in court for years, yet they continued to buy...At bargain prices.

If something looks too good to be true...it usually is.

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 02:13 PM

Thanks Skeet ----

Oppenheimer did a good job in this report. Sorry to say that, in Mexico, things change so rapidly that good writing , such as this, becomes obsolete as you read it. The consolidation of wealth in Mexico, once considered an anchor on social development, has become globalized to the point of being a milestone in the development of this and other emerging nations. Slim Helu is a case in point. Ten years ago he would have been considered a rich, greedy pig. Today he is a leader of global industry and the only thing he changed in that time was his shorts. At least, I hope he did.

I didn't read "Fire And Blood", but I will.

If I may return the favor, allow me to give you food for thought, "Mexicos Mandarins".

Thanks again, Skeet

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 02:16 PM

Dave ---

Im not refering to revolution in Mexico. Im talking about an insurgency in the United States. I believe it's inevitable.

cabobaja - 9-19-2006 at 02:24 PM

Hola all!

I am a new Nomad living in Southern Baja for past 11 years. Born in La Jolla, raised in North County of San Diego. Prior to moving here, I regularly visited Baja numerous times a year since 1969. My wife is Mexican and my two boy's were born in Baja.

Baja Bernie: Have no idea why you would post and insinuate such an hypothesis. You are scaring people.

I am very familiar with Punta Banda. Simply stated, they purchased from someone who did not own the property.

As a member of the Los Cabos MLS and AMPI, which is now strongly associated with the American and Mexican Association of Realtors, foreigner's purchasing property in Mexican have never been more protected with regard to their investment.

Currently, the Los Cabos MLS and AMPI have a goal to raise $150,000US for those affected by Hurrican John. As Mulege had the most devastation,
behind the East Cape in Los Cabos, Mulege will receive a large percentage of the funds. The drive begain on the 14th. Almost $20,000 has been donated to date by the Los Cabos MLS Real Estate broker's and agent's.

Please consider what you post! Maybe if you have so much time on your hands, you should write another book. Please make it positive.

Shame on you, Bernie!

Dave - 9-19-2006 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
Baja Bernie: Have no idea why you would post and insinuate such an hypothesis. You are scaring people.

Please consider what you post! Maybe if you have so much time on your hands, you should write another book. Please make it positive.

Have at it guys. :lol:

Cypress - 9-19-2006 at 02:54 PM

I'm leaning towards cabobaja on this issue. There are all sorts of individual situations. Example: You see a nice car and a guy is leaning up against it. You like the car! Ask him if he'd sell it. Why sure, he says. You buy it. Jeez! He was only leaning on it. He didn't own it! Simplistic example.

Al G - 9-19-2006 at 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover
People are scared about a violent reaction to concentration of wealth in Mexico because they suspect most Mexican males still own a pair of balls.

Quite possibly a few "females" as well!

Has the wealth really changed that much? Are you saying one group has suddenly become rich and the other has become poor. I know little of real Mexico history, I was sure that there has alway been a ruling rich and the rest were poor. I also thought a new middle class has developed. :?:

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 04:42 PM

Mexican men dont own their balls. Their wives do. That is the conflict. The mexican culture of Chingoles permits [ doesn't excuse ] their balls to roll into other courts, which they so often do.

Chingoles --- the culture of betrayel which Malinche originated by taking up with Cortez. A hoar by any standards, then and now.
Mexican culture makes room for infidelity as long as it is kept secret. They just have to make an overture to secrecy that protects the pride of the little woman at home. If the whole world feels that the man is trying to protect his wife through stealth, that is, protecting her from pain, then he is an honorable person, especially in his own mind.

Jeezo, what a culture

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 04:58 PM

Yeah Al ---
In northern Baja, a large middle class is developing although I dont believe that northern Baja is representitive of Mexico. I think the local economy is taking on the charachteristics of the northern neighbor.
The concentration of real wealth has wormed its way to the top but, today, there are so many people making a living wage in the northern zone, adjacent to the U.S.
Another thing which adds to the illusion that Mexicans are making more money is the pure fact that they buy their houses. Although I know, new institutions are forming, Mexicans pull out their wallets and buy their houses. No mortgage --- no monthly payments. Again, it is an illusion but, at the end of the month they have more to spend on consumer items.

Just my observations ---- Dennis

JESSE - 9-19-2006 at 05:01 PM

I think the whole Lopez Obrador thing is getting blown out of proportion. To begin with, he is surrounded by a bunch of incredibly incompetent advisors that have done nothing but sink his movement, and his persona. If you truly want to know whats going to happen, you should pay attention to some new polls that are coming out. If the elections where held today, Calderon would win by at least 14 percentage points over Obrador, wich means that a hell of a lot people realize Obrador is not what he appeared to be. Another one, has 73% of all Mexicans saying they do not agree with Lopez Obradors tactics. And last but not least, the military has sent enough signals to Obrador to make him think twice about starting a little personl revolution.

People, Obrador will make it interesting, but he has lost too much muscle with his stupid tactics, he has moved out of the mainstream and into the territory of radicals. Mexico has come out stronger from this, any other developing nation would have seen violence and caos. We took the best punches from a wannabe Fidel castro, and we held strong and peacefully. Theres an economic theory that once a nation achieves a GDP of 8000 dollars per capita, it is virtually impossible for it to fall into caos and anarchy, and we are very close to 8,000.

Bet on Mexico, i would, and i am.

JESSE - 9-19-2006 at 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
The day will come when shots are fired but, it will start from within, not a wave from the south.

Agreed. Mexico's Southern poor have nothing, never did. Revolution, when it comes, will only succeed if supported by those who have had...and lost.

When the oil runs out, I'll be long gone.

No Dave, we will declare Baja a sovereign and free nation, and we will all live happily ever after

Al G - 9-19-2006 at 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Dave ---

Im not refering to revolution in Mexico. Im talking about an insurgency in the United States. I believe it's inevitable.

OK Dennis explain your theory on insurgency. If you are referring to the gangs of LA, we have passed legislation to deal with that. There is a wait and see attitude here on this legislation. I don't get what you mean.

Al G - 9-19-2006 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

No Dave, we will declare Baja a sovereign and free nation, and we will all live happily ever after

Damn Jesse, I like you! :tumble:

Al G - 9-19-2006 at 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I think the whole Lopez Obrador thing is getting blown out of proportion. To begin with, he is surrounded by a bunch of incredibly incompetent advisors that have done nothing but sink his movement, and his persona. If you truly want to know whats going to happen, you should pay attention to some new polls that are coming out. If the elections where held today, Calderon would win by at least 14 percentage points over Obrador, wich means that a hell of a lot people realize Obrador is not what he appeared to be. Another one, has 73% of all Mexicans saying they do not agree with Lopez Obradors tactics. And last but not least, the military has sent enough signals to Obrador to make him think twice about starting a little personl revolution.

People, Obrador will make it interesting, but he has lost too much muscle with his stupid tactics, he has moved out of the mainstream and into the territory of radicals. Mexico has come out stronger from this, any other developing nation would have seen violence and caos. We took the best punches from a wannabe Fidel castro, and we held strong and peacefully. Theres an economic theory that once a nation achieves a GDP of 8000 dollars per capita, it is virtually impossible for it to fall into caos and anarchy, and we are very close to 8,000.

Bet on Mexico, i would, and i am.

I said this already, but you did a much, much better job.

JESSE - 9-19-2006 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Bernie ----

Mexico is already invading and conquering the U.S.. They are doing that without firing a shot. But, I believe you're right. The day will come when shots are fired but, it will start from within, not a wave from the south.

We are? if our leaders could manage to plan and execute a plan of that magnitude, our people would not need to migrate up north and we would have economies similar to those of nordic nations.

The problems that can put in jeopardy the supremacy of the US in the world, are not coming across the border. They are being spent in bad strategy, poor understanding of foreign affairs, and a lack of interest of young americans for hard sciences.

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 05:24 PM

Yeah Jesse --- you're mostly right on.
But to believe that AMLO is surrounded by dolts is to lay yourself wide open to an underestimation of the enemy.
He is buried with qualified help.
Their weakness at this juncture was the agenda, not the messenger. The messenger carried the weak agenda well, you have to admit.

Now .... Strengthen the agenda and be cool for six more years----?
The status quo will change, especially if the prophet of change behaves himself.

Si o no? What Mexico will you bet on?

Im with you, Jesse.... Im betting on the Mexico as we know it.

Anyway, Im old and almost dead so, why do I care???????

David K - 9-19-2006 at 05:28 PM

Wow, I love it when Jesse posts!

"No Dave, we will declare Baja a sovereign and free nation, and we will all live happily ever after "

(flag of Republic of Lower California, 1853... later renamed the Republic of Sonora)

(flag of state of Lower California, part of the Republic of Sonora, 1854)

[Edited on 9-20-2006 by David K]

JESSE - 9-19-2006 at 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Yeah Jesse --- you're mostly right on.
But to believe that AMLO is surrounded by dolts is to lay yourself wide open to an underestimation of the enemy.
He is buried with qualified help.
Their weakness at this juncture was the agenda, not the messenger. The messenger carried the weak agenda well, you have to admit.

Now .... Strengthen the agenda and be cool for six more years----?
The status quo will change, especially if the prophet of change behaves himself.

Si o no? What Mexico will you bet on?

Im with you, Jesse.... Im betting on the Mexico as we know it.

Anyway, Im old and almost dead so, why do I care???????

I have seen nothing that worries me coming out of the minds of Lopez Obrador's inner circle. In fact, i am very very happy that he is surrounded by those men. They are completely unable to read the current political heartbeat of the nation as a whole.

Any team that manages to lose a 12 point lead in an election in less than 1 month cannot be considered capable.

JESSE - 9-19-2006 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Wow, I love it when Jesse posts!

"No Dave, we will declare Baja a sovereign and free nation, and we will all live happily ever after "

(flag of Republic of Lower California)

[Edited on 9-20-2006 by David K]

Hey David,

Why don't you design a Baja flag? print stickers, and sell them?

Send me a check for the idea when you become rich.

Jesse

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 05:47 PM

This guy is what I hope will be the future of Mexico. I have been saying what a sharp young man he since I met him at the Fiesta at JR home (David K--can come up with the date).

He has very nicely cut my argument about Obrador and the revolution to pieces AND that makes me happy.

Go Jesse---wish you would post more often because in most cases you are a man (beyond your years) of reason and understanding and all of us would gain from listening to you.

Oh! Mr. Bajacabo I will not even respond to your attempt to kill the messenger rather than provide facts as Jesse just has.

I will say that I belive that this was a great thread and it caused all of 'us' to learn and better understand this place we all love.

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 05:53 PM

Hold on Jesse ---
I guess we cross posted there.

Your inclusion of my post -- quote --- was followed by, "We are"?

Are you Mexican... I mean, other than in your Nomad heart, because I get the feeling you're taking a stance behind the two trillion ton enchilada that has rolled over the American southwest and claimed it as their own.
We all know the mistakes and shortcomings of our, that would be United States, administration.
Since you say you're one of the "We", allow me to ask you a few questions.

Why do you, speaking for "We", consider United States laws meaningless? Why do you and yours cross the border illegally in places that if I were to be with you and apprehended, I would go to jail in spite of the fact that I fought for America, and you would get a plane ride?

Why is it, Jesse, that you, as a self proclaimed Mexican, only believe what your government tells you if it's against the United States?

Why is all this stuff, Jesse? I live in Mexico, legally, and dont get this opportunity to ask these questions. I hope you can help me with answers.

David K - 9-19-2006 at 05:58 PM

Jesse the day we met him... JULY 11, 2004

With Baja Nomad (Doug)...

David K - 9-19-2006 at 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Wow, I love it when Jesse posts!

"No Dave, we will declare Baja a sovereign and free nation, and we will all live happily ever after "

(flag of Republic of Lower California)

[Edited on 9-20-2006 by David K]

Hey David,

Why don't you design a Baja flag? print stickers, and sell them?

Send me a check for the idea when you become rich.

Jesse, if I did... all profits would go to you as the best one to make good use of them, in Baja... su republica!

How about a blue flag (for the sea and sky) with a multi limbed boojum (cirio) tree in the center?

JESSE - 9-19-2006 at 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Hold on Jesse ---
I guess we cross posted there.

Your inclusion of my post -- quote --- was followed by, "We are"?

Are you Mexican... I mean, other than in your Nomad heart, because I get the feeling you're taking a stance behind the two trillion ton enchilada that has rolled over the American southwest and claimed it as their own.
We all know the mistakes and shortcomings of our, that would be United States, administration.
Since you say you're one of the "We", allow me to ask you a few questions.

Why do you, speaking for "We", consider United States laws meaningless? Why do you and yours cross the border illegally in places that if I were to be with you and apprehended, I would go to jail in spite of the fact that I fought for America, and you would get a plane ride?

Why is it, Jesse, that you, as a self proclaimed Mexican, only believe what your government tells you if it's against the United States?

Why is all this stuff, Jesse? I live in Mexico, legally, and dont get this opportunity to ask these questions. I hope you can help me with answers.

I don't support illegal immigration, in fact, i am one of a few that thinks that illegal immigration hurts Mexico far more than it hurst the US, so i wouldn't know how to explain any of that since i am not for it.

Now, you can disagree or agree with illegal immigration, but i think calling us Mexicans enchiladas is not a way to open an honest debate. Regardless of that, lets look at some hard cold facts.

1.-Your economy needs immigrants, i am not saying Mexicans, but i am saying immigrants. You have declining birthrates, you have explosive older populations that thanks to great healthcare and wonder medicines, are living up to 80s. This is not if, but how much and from where. Would you like europeans? that would be great but they are doing great over on the other side of the pond. They aint coming here. Would want Chinese? how about some arabs? or what about Africans?

Its your choice, you need them, but in my opinion, Mexicans are your best choice.

2.-I dont believe what my goverment tells me anymore than you believe yours.

3.-IF YOU WANTED to, you could close the border in one week, you know it, i know it, so why don't you? read awnser number 1.

So, i understand why many european americans would like to keep things the same. people do not like change, anywhere. but that is your choice, eventually, you will end up in the same position Japan is today, a homogeneous society, rich, but looking at a drop of almost 50% of their population in the next 70 years, and with that, a drop in their position as world leaders, as economic powerhouses, and as masters of their future.

I am not pro illegal immigration, but i am also not against it.

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 06:49 PM

Jesse
How can you think, even for a second, that migration is bad for Mexico? I mean, you folks with new shoes export your unemployed to the buttcrack American wasteland and get back twenty billion dollars a year in remittances, the second largest amount of foreign investment behind oil.
You claim a low unemployment rate. Yeah, why not? All your unemployed are in the states.
C'mon Jesse --- Dont be one of those who throw the racist card every time you get upset. I didn't call Mexicans enchiladas. I refered to the two trillion ton enchilada in the same vane as everybody [of course not you] refers to the Tortilla Curtain.

You are right, America needs immigrants. Im glad that's fact because my grandparents were from Ireland.
But, you know what Jesse, they came into the U.S. legally.

HonestlyJesse, I wouldn't be that concerned about illegal immigration if people like you, just exactly like you, didn't express their entitlement to ignore our laws. Our laws are our laws but they dont mean crap to you or your track star buddies.
I live in Mexico and respect Mexican Law. I also obey it. Your disregard for U.S. law is the attitude which will start a war.

Viva Aztlan, right?

Bajamatic - 9-19-2006 at 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
By the way ---
I was down here for a long time without papers, even had a real estate business without complying.
.... Dennis

Is that your idea of obeying the laws? Wait, according to you, Dennis, "This country has no laws, only penalties". That must explain the above.

Al G - 9-19-2006 at 07:20 PM

I have an ideal. Probably to many wines to convey it right.

We have a gooooood sum of welfare that we support and do not want to work. Right? I think we should do an exchange for working Mexicans!

[Edited on 9-20-2006 by Al G]

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 07:24 PM

Do you think Mexico would go for that idea. The welfare folks would have to learn to work or to live without eating.

Bajalero - 9-19-2006 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
Hola all!

I am a new Nomad living in Southern Baja for past 11 years. Born in La Jolla, raised in North County of San Diego. Prior to moving here, I regularly visited Baja numerous times a year since 1969. My wife is Mexican and my two boy's were born in Baja.

Baja Bernie: Have no idea why you would post and insinuate such an hypothesis. You are scaring people.

I am very familiar with Punta Banda. Simply stated, they purchased from someone who did not own the property.

As a member of the Los Cabos MLS and AMPI, which is now strongly associated with the American and Mexican Association of Realtors, foreigner's purchasing property in Mexican have never been more protected with regard to their investment.

Currently, the Los Cabos MLS and AMPI have a goal to raise $150,000US for those affected by Hurrican John. As Mulege had the most devastation,
behind the East Cape in Los Cabos, Mulege will receive a large percentage of the funds. The drive begain on the 14th. Almost $20,000 has been donated to date by the Los Cabos MLS Real Estate broker's and agent's.

Please consider what you post! Maybe if you have so much time on your hands, you should write another book. Please make it positive.

Funny the dirt pimps are always the first ones who get bent out of shape whenever some one brings up a POSSIBLE negative about Baja.

I personally don't care if you donated Bill Gates' riches to whatever, if there wasn't the high dollar investment going on in Baja no one would even give a second thought at ripping someone off over it . And you can have Cabo . Like all big developement in Mex it's a big cess pit too and getting worse imo , It'll be just like TJ and Rosarito with nicer weather

I've owned more than several properties in Baja and can gladly say that as of right now I sold out all but one and that one is a little piece in the middle of nowhere that I can walk away from in a heartbeat with no loss and no more headaches .

When the boomers money run out and the equity value of real estate in the U.S goes south as it is doing rapidly I wouldn't want to be paying the prices for B & R that the dirt pimps are getting at this moment .

Scaring people ? Really . They ought be really sacred before they even think about puchasing property- especially in Baja.

It's a good heads up to ponder Bernie. There was a good related artiicle in the Washington Post I'll see if I can dig up and post that may be a good read for some of you.

lero

Al G - 9-19-2006 at 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie
Do you think Mexico would go for that idea. The welfare folks would have to learn to work or to live without eating.

No way!!!
Trying not to be political, but our welfare system is design by bleeding hearts.
My Body does not like me anymore, but I would pick fruit rather then get something for nothing.
Amnesty only if deportation of illegal GANG members

[Edited on 9-20-2006 by Al G]

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 08:16 PM

Well, hey there bajamatic---

I dont approve of the quote box as you use it. It isolates statements and they can be taken out of context. You just did that.
But, we can trade sentiments or opinions toward a logical end. Let me know if you'd like to do that.
Yeah. Let me know, tomorrow. Right now, Im going to bed.

Hey Dennis

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 08:29 PM

Now you are pulling a Bernie on us.

DENNIS - 9-19-2006 at 08:34 PM

Yeah Bernie --
Age may not get any respect around here but it still has its privileges.

Hasta Tomorrow

Hey!

Baja Bernie - 9-19-2006 at 08:46 PM

I'm an Irishman too and we are both full of sh*t. As my Okie relatives used to say, "Sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite!

bancoduo - 9-19-2006 at 08:47 PM

What would happen if a anglo-american citizen got caught crossing the border into the US. at some place other then a port of entry? I know and it ain't pretty. So lets hear from you folks out there who are experts on the subject. :?:

[Edited on 9-20-2006 by bancoduo]

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