BajaNomad - Is Baja More Violent Now?

Is Baja More Violent Now?

BajaGeoff - 9-22-2006 at 12:11 PM

I was reading about the shooting yesterday of the Tijuana police sub-director and stumbled upon this quote regarding the recent violence in Baja:

"Official statistics, however, don't show a dramatic upswing in killings. During the first 20 days of September, 27 homicides have been recorded. Since 2003, the number of killings per month has ranged from 18 to 57, according to statistics from the state attorney general's office. What makes the situation unusual is the kind of violence and who is being targeted."

So, is Baja really more violent now than in years past, or is it just that the stories are more widely publicized because of the nature of the crimes?

Cypress - 9-22-2006 at 01:32 PM

BajaGeoff. The Baja violence is a turf battle between bad guys. It'll all settle down as soon as the smoke clears. Endangering tourists is the last thing they want. Very bad for business! Been offered drugs a time or two down in Baja. Declined. They smiled and moved on to the next prospect.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-22-2006 at 02:03 PM

BajaGeoff:
Violence is on the rise in many places in Baja as well as the States and all over the World; A good reason is the Rise in Drug use, especially the "Meth" problem.
In Loreto for many years there was very little Crime, after the Road Opened, TV, Telephones came along and the Americans started coming in numbers the Crimes,especially thefts started an upward Trend, then the Transportation of Drugs from the Mainland to Baja increased creating more problems.

For many years you could, as a Guest at the Hotel Oasis, leave you wallet in you unlocked room while going out for a Day of fishing,without worry of it being stolen.

As DOPE was not around, the thing to do was "Sniffing of Glue" from a Sock.
Finally "Grass" became popular and a couple of my Friends ended up doing 3 Years of Hard Time for selling a Pound on the streets of Loreto.
If the same Punishment was still being handed down, there would be no more problem!

The first Muder I remember in Loreto happened on Coronado Island and was between Mexicanos, the Second, several years later was an Americano Shot to death in his House, and the Third was a young man who murdered a Girl up in the Arroyo.. That covered a period from 1968 to 2000.

Most of the "Bad Stuff" happens in the Border Cities and Areas ,
Bypass those area as you would areas of Los Angeles, Oakland, San Francisco.
Be aware , know your surroundings and live without Fear!

Skeet/Loreto

BajaGeoff - 9-22-2006 at 02:28 PM

I understand the nature of the situation Cypress....and I agree....it should settle down.....hopefully sooner than later.

Just trying to put a little perspective on the negative attention that our beloved Baja is getting lately!

Hook - 9-22-2006 at 02:41 PM

The question, in a sense, is rather unimportant, when you are dealing with violent crime at this high level.

It's a little bit like the mayors of Compton and Inglewood arguing about who has the lower murder rate in their city. Somebody does, but who cares? It's an unacceptable level.

Besides, the murder rate in TJ, graphed, would probably look more like a sine wave than an ever-increasing curve. Factors other than just "drug use" (whose incidence is pretty linear in one direction or the other) must be affecting the rate. Events like the arrest of Arellano-Felix or an internal situation in the cartels or the police agencies (or both) are probably more to blame.

Best to avoid the peaks in the sine wave........there has been some significant collateral damage in this recent outbreak. Not just those in the drug trade or enforcement are being killed or wounded.

Skeets points are well made.......but it's just so darn inconvenient to bypass TJ and Rosarito (on our way south) for some of us.

Hook - 9-22-2006 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
BajaGeoff. The Baja violence is a turf battle between bad guys. It'll all settle down as soon as the smoke clears. Endangering tourists is the last thing they want. Very bad for business! Been offered drugs a time or two down in Baja. Declined. They smiled and moved on to the next prospect.

I dont think this war is about controlling who is going to sell some pot or whatever to the few gringos who would dare try and make a street purchase in Baja. This is much bigger dollars than that. This is about moving stuff into the US where the prohibition creates a much bigger profit margin.

You wont find these people on a street corner........

It's becoming collateral damage that most of us have to worry about. More public shootouts.....more collateral damage. 150 shots supposedly fired near the Playas de TJ exit, when that police captain was taken out. What was that....9am in morning or something?

Hook

Baja Bernie - 9-22-2006 at 05:41 PM

A simple question--you stated that this was a world wide happening and I agree with you--The question--do you think it is about time that the honest citizens of the world take things away from the politicians and the gangs and start enforcing justice on their own for their own survival?

Yeah! I know someone is going to ask the question--how can a retired cop talk like this--the answer is the world wide system of civilization is broken!!!!!!!!

Larry

Baja Bernie - 9-22-2006 at 07:00 PM

I am not totally sure but you have taken what I said and reduced it to what you would do! And, somehow I really do not believe that is what I was thinking.

lizard lips - 9-22-2006 at 07:57 PM

The laws in Mexico are a little different then they are in the states. A doctor friend of mine here in Ensenada confronted an intruder in his own home and because he is an expert in martial arts the guy was taken to the hospital with several broken bones and teeth missing. He really beat him bad. The intruder went to the Ministerio Publico and was charged with the crime however because he was beaten soo badly the MP office filed charges against my friend and he was ordered to pay for all of his medical fees as well as monies to support the intruders family.

If an intruder enters your home and you shoot or stab him you had better be sure he also has a gun or knife. If he does'nt you will be charged.

Apparently you must fight fair, which to me does'nt make sense. If someone enters my home here and he was not invited I will do what I have to do and I will not be the victim. I will purchase the pine box.

Hook - 9-22-2006 at 08:07 PM

Bernie, it was actually Skeet that was making the world-wide point. That was not one of the points I am in total agreement with.

Until VERY recently, the violent crime rate, at least statistically, has been steadily going down in the US. I know that in my neck of the woods, it's pretty rare.

Tough for me to extrapolate to the rest of the world.

But I'm always in favor of citizens having the lethal means to protect themselves, personally. Please dont take offense to this as an ex-lawman, but the police too often arrive after the fact. I'd rather have the means to deter, before the fact.

Of course that's pretty much out of the question in Mexico. Even if I could pack, not sure what good it would do against an AK-47.

bancoduo - 9-22-2006 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lizard lips
The laws in Mexico are a little different then they are in the states. A doctor friend of mine here in Ensenada confronted an intruder in his own home and because he is an expert in martial arts the guy was taken to the hospital with several broken bones and teeth missing. He really beat him bad. The intruder went to the Ministerio Publico and was charged with the crime however because he was beaten soo badly the MP office filed charges against my friend and he was ordered to pay for all of his medical fees as well as monies to support the intruders family.

If an intruder enters your home and you shoot or stab him you had better be sure he also has a gun or knife. If he does'nt you will be charged.

Apparently you must fight fair, which to me does'nt make sense. If someone enters my home here and he was not invited I will do what I have to do and I will not be the victim. I will purchase the pine box.

That sounds like what would happen in the US.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-23-2006 at 03:03 AM

Times are Changing:
Recently here in the Texas Panhandle a 15 year old intruder broke into a home, the Owner shot Him! It was taken to the Grand Jury and "No Billed"!
The act of Sef-Defense by use of Deadly force is now acceptable aganist Intruders.

Many times in the Loreto Area in the Past, the person who got out of Line was taken care of by a Family Member, but with the Breakdown of the Family in Mexico, as in the States,it has changed.

Bernie, as an ex-Officer who worked South Central LA the year before the Watts Riots, and the upsurge of Violence in East La, and Compton{Which has the largest number of Ex-Cons in California} I agree that this Country is coming to a Time in Which we as Citizens will have to take up Arms!!

It is a Sad thing to see coming.

I still suggest that for those who have been going through TJ, to take a little extra Time and go Through at Tecate!!

Skeet/Loreto

TMW - 9-23-2006 at 07:56 AM

Skeet, I wonder if the owner would have gotten off if he had beaten the kid instead of shooting him. I would guess a grandjury or judge might think he should stop beating the kid at some point. As in the case that lizard lips tells.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-23-2006 at 01:27 PM

TW; The .Owner Shot the Kid Dead!

As inCalif., during the early 90's here in Texas there has been a "Get Tough Time"" Texas is nesx to California in Prison Population, being much Tougher on things such a Hot Check here can get you 30 Days in Jail, Evictions ar done in 30 Days as opposed to 6 Months in Calif.

But to get back to the Problem in Baja and Mexico; It is very Simple to me;;Shut down the Demand- There will be no Market!

Life/Death for all Dealers of Drugs- No Rehab as it is proven to be a Failure.

Seems as if Mexico is getting rid of a lot of Scum, maybe they will Kill all the Bad Guys, then some of the reformed Addicts can Shoot the Rest for selling them the Drugs in the First Place.

Anon The Preacher

Self-Defense

MrBillM - 9-23-2006 at 03:34 PM

Under California Law, you are able to use deadly force in self-defense if you (as a reasonable person) feel you are in danger of death or great bodily harm. If you are inside your own home and someone makes a forced entry, the legal assumption is that you have the right to use deadly force. Note that coming through an unlocked door does not constitute forced entry.

Additionally, previously the law was phrased so that you had to retreat to safety if able to do so. That requirement has been dropped in favor of language similar to that adopted in Florida that you have no responsibility to retreat from any spot that you have a legal right to be in.

In Texas (unless it has been repealed), you also had the right to use deadly force in defense of private property. It was jokingly referred to as the "Shoot the Repo Man" law because a number of people repossessing vehicles were shot by the owners who "claimed" that they thought he was a thief.

As an added precaution should you ever need to shoot someone in your house, follow the advice I heard from a Defense expert who said "fire three shots. The first two center mass into the perp and the third in the ceiling. When the police ask if you fired a warning shot, point to the one in the ceiling and say yes".

lizard lips - 9-23-2006 at 09:41 PM

I will remember that Mr. Bill.......

Skeet/Loreto - 9-24-2006 at 05:34 PM

In Texas, you do not have to fire a Warning Shot, all that is necessary that you feel that your are in Eniment Danger of losing your Life.

At Police School at Freano State,we were taugh that if we had to Pull our Weapon that we were to "Shoot to Kill', now it is Taught that when you Piul your Weapn your are to "Shoot to Stop""
To quick shots to the Midsection with a 9 mm usually does the Job.
It is not your intent to "Kill" but to Stop!/ Much Different than 50 years ago.

Just went through the Concealed Handgun Program for my Permit, 12 Hours of Study, Test, firing.

Skeet

Cypress - 9-25-2006 at 10:24 AM

Most folks will do whatever it takes to protect their family, themselves, and property. Don't use lethal means to protect property. Defending family or self from harm comes under the heading of "self defence". If you deliver the coup 'de grace instead of calling an ambulance, you might be prison-bound.

DENNIS - 9-25-2006 at 01:56 PM

Are cross-bows illegal in Mexico?

Warning Shots

MrBillM - 9-25-2006 at 03:25 PM

Note that I did NOT say that a "warning shot" was required in California. It is not. The advice came from a security expert who gave the advice as a way to make your case look better.

The two weapons I have at the ready in my house (in California) are a 12-gauge and a .45ACP. Two shots from either Center Mass and there is no concern over wounding. Another piece of advice from the same defense expert was that, if only one party is alive, only one version of the story will ever be told.

Hook

Baja Bernie - 9-25-2006 at 04:39 PM

"Please dont take offense to this as an ex-lawman, but the police too often [almost always] arrive after the fact. I'd rather have the means to deter, before the fact."

Why should I take offense with reality!!!!!!

awfulart - 9-25-2006 at 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Are cross-bows illegal in Mexico?

I have been wondering the same thing. A small cross bow can do a lot of damage. However, don't miss. :?:

Art P.

yikes

k1w1 - 9-25-2006 at 05:17 PM

... I guess rednecks head south too!
sheeez

So K1w1

Sonora Wind - 9-25-2006 at 05:40 PM

Please tell use all, how you intend to defend yourself, on a lone strech of a long quite beach. Your there with your special other and a panga of 6/7 Male unfriendlies comes around the point. You take it from here. ???? :cool:

We wait for non-redneck enlightenment. I know what I would do, but I might be a redneck.

awfulart - 9-25-2006 at 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k1w1
... I guess rednecks head south too!
sheeez

Just exactly what is your definition of a so called "Red Neck."

I suppose part of it is in the"eyes of the beholder" :?:

Art

awfulart - 9-25-2006 at 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k1w1
... I guess rednecks head south too!
sheeez

K1W1

Just what is your definition of a Red Neck. :?:

I guess it depends on the "eyes of the beholder"

I must say, we all should have a way of defending ourselves, and family. You probably will never be required to, but just in case. The consequences can sometimes be final and devastating if the wrong people come along with bad intent

Art

I would act confident but not agressive

Sonora Wind - 9-25-2006 at 06:16 PM

I would move to a place of passive advantage ie high ground. If they cross that line we call fear. Well then I pitty the poor fools. :lol:

Or the age old atage," you gota bring a nose to hit a nose." I know this all sounds like bad A-- stuff, and I do not look for nor wish to have these types of encounters. I guess I tend to feel, if someone is intent on doing you harm, and they don't stop advancing when they hear that 870 Rem rack the double 00. 1. Their not a redneck. 2. Their not supposed to be in the gene pool.

In my case standing on the beach with my girlfriend and walking toward the panga in question was enough. But I was in fear .

Skeet/Loreto - 9-25-2006 at 07:22 PM

Kiwi:
I would be my suggestion that before you call people "Redneck" that you Define yourself!
That being said: A Drunk is standing in front of a Bar in the Central Valley of California Hold a Shotgun in the Firing Position, after threatening to Killanyone who trys to Stop Him; 4 Police Officer, with Guns Drawn and Held in the Ready position;Subject is advised to "Drop his Weapon in a Downward Movement.
He raises the Weapon to Fire!

Kwiwi: As a Police Offer-What action do you Take??

Lay down your Weapon?
Try to Reason with the Subject?
Wait for the Movement?
Upward you shoot Him, Downward movement, you take a chane and ease your Finger from the Trigger, hoping that He drops the Weapon and you do not have to Shoot Him:

It is the same when someone causes Danger to your Family;

thinkabout it Long and Hard, see if you can get a Ride with a Police Dept. Squad -Learn about True Life on the Streets before making Judgements about "Defending your Family"/

Skeet/Loreto
Proud to be a Texas Redneck after being a Police Officer in Hollywood, South Central, Fresno, California

Larry

Baja Bernie - 9-25-2006 at 08:00 PM

Have you ever met Sonora Wind--I have and he would do whatever was necessary to control his environment. A redneck he is not but a 'man' he surely is!

The secret

bajaguy - 9-25-2006 at 08:57 PM

is what you do to prepare yourself BEFORE the event.......and not having to worry about what to do when the event occurs. A practised response is always better than a reaction.

toneart - 9-25-2006 at 10:22 PM

What do you do when confronted by bad guys? We cannot carry weapons in Mexico. Why all the macho talk?

If you do run into the bad guys, it is really too late. You are looking down the barrel of a gun. They may rob or even kill you, but sometimes, if you speak some Spanish and give them what they want, they might not hurt you. You are really at their mercy if they have the guns and you don't. In that situation, if you try and act macho or tough, you will end up dead. A dead person is not macho or even dumb, anymore.

Most of the time, what looks like a bad situation turns out not to be. That has been my experience. I have travelled all over Mexico, all my life. I have met many bad-ass looking guys and shot down tequila with them in cantinas, arm wrestled, laughed, joked, gone to parties and talked macho.....and was fairly certain that they were not intent on hurting me. There is an attitude in mixing in the Mexican culture.Yes, it does involve being macho in a friendly, competitive, open way, They call it "la onda". It's all about style.

Just be smart, use your intuition and try not to get yourselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most of the killings are over drugs, cartels, cartel wannabes, police or anyone standing in their way.

Follow the safety tips that Nomads have offered; don't drive at night, avoid border cities, don't stop between the border and Ensenada and caravan if possible. Be invisible. Don't flash cash or the bling bling. Just be smart and have fun. The guy with the real cajones doesn't let fear dictate his life.

FARASHA - 9-25-2006 at 10:48 PM

Even without cajones, I let that never happen, never did - that fear dicdates my life.
Bad people see and feel if you are an easy target, especially if you are a female. And especially as I am a petit female.
I have been traveling a lot on my own, throughout the world.
And to quite more problematic areas - comparing to BCN.
NEVER had a problem, by following those already mentioned rules.
Sometimes I either kept them at bay with a big smile and playing stupid, or a POKERFACE as "I'm NOT impresssed at all". Or played their macho attitudes along to some extend till I could get away from them.
When it got tight I would let them know that I had a BAD day already, and would be VERY HAPPY to kick someones b.tt - or better cajones, to get it out.( was good for my confidence to have the brown belt in Jiu Jitsu - although I NEVER had to use my skills).
However as my signature is stating - a Life lived in Fear.......

If Baja has become more violent - well, then just watch out you bad guys - when I'll be around next time :dudette:

I can play your games !!!!!!Or teach you some !!

[Edited on 26-9-2006 by FARASHA]

Stickers - 9-25-2006 at 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sonora Wind
Please tell use all, how you intend to defend yourself, on a lone strech of a long quite beach. Your there with your special other and a panga of 6/7 Male unfriendlies comes around the point. You take it from here.

The chance of this happening is probably the same as being struck by lightening on that beach. I don't need a lightening rod on my head to ejnjpy a day at the beach.

"Unfriendlies" I think you're watching too much Military Channel, I've never come across an unfriendly in Baja.

:tumble:

Skeet/Loreto - 9-26-2006 at 03:59 AM

After 38 years of Life in Baja Sur -Loreto-Mulege-and on the Sea of Cortez, I have never been "Fearful of my Life" except in a Panga 35 Miles out from Loreto when a Whip Storm came up and there was "Thunder with no Clouds".
My trust in my Panga, my experience gained from my Friend Alvaro Murillo gave me the Confidence to Survive.

All of the Near Death Situtations came while working as a Police Officer, living in San Francisco, Oakland, Fresno California and on my Trips South to the Border-Finally stopped going the Freeway through L.A> because of the "Random Freeway Shootings" several years ago. Started going Freeway 210 to Pasadena, then to Hwy 60 to Hwy 15 on to Tecate and then to Ensenada.
In all my years in Baja, I have never felt Threaten.

Be Aware, Be Happy, and keep your Eyes and Ears open-.

Anon The Preacher

FARASHA - 9-26-2006 at 06:56 AM

AMEN to Skeet!!
Had to go through several shooting's between opposing fronts in the 80ties in the near east, and just escaping a bombblast in an famous shopping area there.
Hasn't stopped me to do what I wanted to do - just been carefull by using common sense. And trusting the instincts.
But I was always on my own, never had to look after family or else, makes maybe a difference.

JESSE - 9-26-2006 at 08:30 AM

First you need to separate whats happening in Tijuana and to some extent, some of the other northern cities like Mexicali and Rosarito. If you do that and you take into account the very fast increase of population from both central mexico and the us, i personally think crime has not increased that much. As always, when ever you move into a new town you need to create several solid friendships with your neighboors. they will help you, look out for your stuff, and protect you from the bad element in all towns. On the other hand if you think you don't need no help, if you think your taxes and investments make you valuable to the community, you will find yourself getting into a lot of trouble unless you live in the middle of the Vizcaino reserve.

I think back 10-30yrs the only americans who came to baja where the type that was genuinely interested in not only the physical beauty of the region, but the people as well. So they where sort of accepted by the communities and protected by them.

These days we have a lot of americans who don't care for the locals, they just want a place to retire and foolishly think that the locals value the investment dollars that they bring, wrong!!

comitan - 9-26-2006 at 09:02 AM

JESSE

Frame that in BIG letters for all to see.

bancoduo - 9-26-2006 at 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
First you need to separate whats happening in Tijuana and to some extent, some of the other northern cities like Mexicali and Rosarito. If you do that and you take into account the very fast increase of population from both central mexico and the us, i personally think crime has not increased that much. As always, when ever you move into a new town you need to create several solid friendships with your neighboors. they will help you, look out for your stuff, and protect you from the bad element in all towns. On the other hand if you think you don't need no help, if you think your taxes and investments make you valuable to the community, you will find yourself getting into a lot of trouble unless you live in the middle of the Vizcaino reserve.

I think back 10-30yrs the only americans who came to baja where the type that was genuinely interested in not only the physical beauty of the region, but the people as well. So they where sort of accepted by the communities and protected by them.

These days we have a lot of americans who don't care for the locals, they just want a place to retire and foolishly think that the locals value the investment dollars that they bring, wrong!!

WELL SAID! :bounce:

bajalera - 9-26-2006 at 11:58 AM

To digress back to the opener of this thread: Of course Baja is more violent now--just like every place else. There are more people everywhere than there used to be, which means more psychopaths and wannabe badasses. Jobs that pay a living wage are being shipped to other countries, resulting in more discontented young people [old ones too]. Add an increase in drugs and druggies, and we've got a world that's way more dangerous than the one I grew up in.

Hook - 9-26-2006 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalera
To digress back to the opener of this thread: Of course Baja is more violent now--just like every place else. There are more people everywhere than there used to be, which means more psychopaths and wannabe badasses. Jobs that pay a living wage are being shipped to other countries, resulting in more discontented young people [old ones too]. Add an increase in drugs and druggies, and we've got a world that's way more dangerous than the one I grew up in.

Agree completely,'lera.

It's unfortunate that the means for visitors to protect themselves has not kept pace; from our inability to possess any REAL deterrent to the corruption with Mexican officialdom (delegados, feds, military, politicians and their appointees).

Fortunately, the areas of REAL danger are pretty obvious to those who take notice.

Don Alley - 9-26-2006 at 01:56 PM

Quote:

But lately there are about 5,000 new faces in Loreto-over 1/4 of the population-and many of those are young, single men away from family. Crime does seem on the upswing, and it's hard to say if more of the breakins are taking place in the more exclusively American neighborhoods or not. I'm also not sure to what extent crime is directed against Americans; long time locals on our block have reported a burglary of their home, and as number of immigrants swells, the sense of community, and local knowledge of who to watch out for, may get lost.

Some say it used to be that if you got burgled, you report it to the police, offer a reward, and they would go visit the local burglar and get your stuff back. Times change.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-26-2006 at 07:18 PM

Don: Well said!
When the "New Presidente was built at Nopollo, there was an influx of People from the Mainland, thefts increased, more Bars were opened etc.

Shor Story:
There was a an increase in"Hutos" during that time. They spent a lot of time at the El Dorado{just off the Main Street.} The Doctors noticed an increase in Case of Veneral Diesease, so one evening my Daughter and I went to dance at the El Dorado. We observed a group of Federales enter the Place, carrying Briefcases. They instructed all the people in the Dance area to stay put, then proceeded to the Bar area, ID'ed each Patron and instructed them they had 48 Hours to leave Loreto, for those that did not have Transportation, a bus took them to La Paz the next Day.

One of those who did not leave became my Friend and to this day is a very good Citizen of Loreto.
There was a "Gay" Bar across the Street from my place on Jordan for several years.
Most of the Crime was small Thefts, Fights etc,

Times have Changed in Loreto as well as in Texas.

Skeet/Loreto

Phil S - 9-26-2006 at 08:18 PM

Skeet. Reading between the lines, are you considering moving back to Loreto?