BajaNomad - Border Wall...MURO DE VIRGUENZA

Border Wall...MURO DE VIRGUENZA

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shari - 10-12-2006 at 05:47 PM

I just wanted to comment on the new wall going up along the USA/Mexico border called the Muro de Virguenza here...or wall of shame. There is a real hulabaloo here about it and unfortunately it is creating more anti-american sentiment. It is a hot topic of conversation and I have heard lots of rumors that maybe someone can substantiate. I heard that hotels in the big cities like Acapulco, Puerto Vallarta, Los Cabos will be boycotting americans and not renting them rooms during the holidays...I highly doubt that but it's just an example of the gossip here. Boycotts of american products and stores have been called for by religious leaders (?). One friend of ours said it's a lot of money being spent for nothing as Mexicans are very resourceful and will just find other ways to enter the states. He mentioned there are lots of tunnels that he goes back and forth in them whenever he wants. Last night on the news was kinda funny as there was a story about 7 mexicans getting stuck in a very narrow tunnel and having to be rescued...ooops. I would like to know what other mexican nomad spouses think about the wall.

BajaWarrior - 10-12-2006 at 05:51 PM

And it was those dispicable American Firemen that saved them from being buried alive...

Don Alley - 10-12-2006 at 06:44 PM

Perhaps Mexicans will figure out other ways to cross the border, but unfortunately those ways may be more dangerous.

But the more effective the wall is at limiting immigration, the more pressure will rise to develop some program or other to allow more workers from Mexico. I think our economy needs them and the wall is just election year showboating.

But wall or no wall, the growing Mexican (and other Spanish speaking) presence in the US will likely result in more manifestations of anti Mexican behavior in the US, and that could encourage an anti-American backlash in Mexico. But I hope that in general, Baja people are not as hot headed as many in the USA.

SiReNiTa - 10-12-2006 at 06:47 PM

lol...i think that if the US just extended a friendly hand to mexicans and not saw them as slaves then everyone could be happy because truly...is there someone here that can prove me wrong in saying that the latin population in the US is very important because they do all the dirty jobs and the ones that are hard and that pay less and on top of all that they get treated like.....yukiness...so as not to say anything else...i am not speaking for the gang members or the drug dealers but for the hard working people that are trying to help their familys and lots of times die in the effort...think of hoe many men leave their homes with a promise of return and better life for their children and never come back...put yourselves in that pisition and then try saying they should not be there...

Oso - 10-12-2006 at 06:57 PM

Our AZ Gov., Janet Napolitano, said it best: "Show me a ten foot wall and I'll show you an eleven foot ladder".

SiReNiTa - 10-12-2006 at 07:10 PM

correct!!! and folks the offer still stands try proving me wrong...but first put yourselves in their shoes...please

Frank - 10-12-2006 at 07:22 PM

They did pull him out of the tunnel, followed by Eyore, Tigger and Piglet.

As Carlos Mencia would say about that wall.....Who is going to build it?

Boycott Americans? That should be interesting. I think the wall is a waste of time, but so is making the Dept of Homeland defense unable to do there job.

Im a Contractor, in San Diego. The amount of skilled workers is very low, and there arent many gringos wanted to learn. Id love to put guys to work, if it were legal. Guest worker program to me sounds like the answer if there is one.

Al G - 10-12-2006 at 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SiReNiTa
correct!!! and folks the offer still stands try proving me wrong...but first put yourselves in their shoes...please

It is late in the evening and I will not attempt to set all My point of view. First thing tomorrow I will state this is not about hard working field hands. It is more serious then that.
I think the wall of shame is fault of the greedy Americans, but the illegal workers are in the income pocket of the hard working blue collar American. No matter who you are that will not go on forever. More on this tomorrow.

Borders are not about political lines

SUNDOG - 10-12-2006 at 07:41 PM

An article you might like.

Borders are not about political lines
By Patrick Osio, Jr

International borders are not about political lines dividing
countries. Borders are about people living across each other
separated by a political line. When people divided by borders are of
different cultures, speak different languages and there is
significant economic disparity between them the differences often
become political problems.

In the Western Hemisphere most border political problems do not
start, or are sustained, due to language or cultural differences.
These differences may exacerbate the problems. The roots of most
political problems exist where there is an economic disparity between
the two divided nations. The greater the disparity, the greater the
political problem.

Thus when the problems are not cultural or language, rather economic
disparity, it makes little difference what the names or world
locations of neighboring countries. So North Korea is to China what
Mexico is to the US; Lesotho is to South Africa what Mexico is to the
US; Guatemala is to Mexico what Mexico is to the US, and on it goes.

When there is no economic disparity, the political problems between
countries are mostly based on historical issues, commercial rivalries
and in modern times, environmental issues.

The US has two countries separated by the political line we call
border, Canada and Mexico. The economic disparity between the peoples
of Canada and the US is of little consequence thus the political
problems based on the border as a dividing line were, prior to the
9/11 terrorist attack, for the most part non existent, though there
are Canadians living and working illegally in the US. And since 9/11
the political border problems the US has with Canada are perceptions
that Canada is not doing enough to stop terrorists from crossing into
the US.

Along the US-Mexico border the situations is dramatically different.
The economic disparity between the two countries is so great that
simply stating it in general terms cannot describe its enormity.

To better understand. Unskilled or semi-skilled factory workers in
the US earn $11.30 an hour; in Mexico $1.13. A US skilled factory
worker earns $16.90 an hour; in Mexico $2.79. An office building
janitor in the US earns $9.37 an hour; in Mexico $0.87. A US store
clerk earns $8.91 an hour; in Mexico $1.67. A US plumber earns $26.97
an hour; in Mexico $2.50.*

How long do workers in the above job examples have to work for some
basic staples like: half-gallon milk; 10-tortilla pack; 1-lb butter;
1-lb Cheddar cheese; 1.42-liter corn oil; 1-lb potatoes; 1-whole
chicken; 1-dozen eggs?*

The US factory worker: 1-hour 45-minutes – Mexican worker: 9-hours 16-
minutes
US skilled factory worker: 1-hour 5-minutes – Mexican worker: 3-hours
34-minutes
US office building-janitor: 1-hour 57-minutes – Mexican janitor: 11-
hours 29-minutes
US store clerk: 2-hours 3-minutes – Mexican store clerk: 5-hours 58-
minutes
US plumber: 45-minutes – Mexican plumber: 3-hours 59-minutes.*

The above costs of basic staples take into consideration the
difference in costs between the US and Mexico: chicken at 99-cents
per lb in the US versus 81-cents in Mexico; potatoes in the US at 99-
cents per lb versus 47-cents in Mexico; the US corn oil at $3.49
versus $1.78 in Mexico; US Cheddar cheese at $4.99-lb versus $2.24 in
Mexico and so on.*

Mexican farmworkers earn less than 80-cents an hour, but a great
number of farms have and continue to shut down unable to compete with
US citizen-tax founded farm subsidized products exported to Mexico,
creating high rates of unemployment.

For millions of Mexicans their earnings, if they have jobs, do not
provide sufficient income to provide the basic necessities to support
a family, so they cross the political line without official
permission in search of economic opportunity, and most find it rather
easily. Due to the massive numbers crossing a political problem has
been created in the US.

The economic disparity in wages coupled with job availability in the
US are the root problems of the political problem between the US and
Mexico.

So what does America, the country made great by immigrants, propose
doing to solve the root problems?

Builds fences and militarizes the border, declare those desperate
souls felons, criminalize aiding them in any way, deny their children
education, prohibit renting them shelter and classify them as
terrorists to ease the American conscience.

If such laws are enacted, may our Lord have mercy on our beloved
America.

SiReNiTa - 10-12-2006 at 07:42 PM

can't wait!! lol...true your point is but still where would lots (not all) of americans be without latinos

-----did I hear someone say something about the "rule of Law"????

Barry A. - 10-12-2006 at 07:55 PM

-------Two words describe the entire problem

ILLEGAL ALIENS , with the emphathise on "ILLEGAL".

I will never understand why folks don't see that.

EVERYBODY that is acting illegally should be cracked down on, both illegal immigrants and illegal gringos employing them. When THAT problem is addressed, and some progress is made, THEN we can work on the folks that are already here ILLEGALLY with some kind of "worker program".

Keep it simple and it can be solved-------muck it up with complexities and it will just get worse, to everybodies detriment.

The "fence" is a first step, and it sure will slow things down to possibly a manageable level. Tunnels and ladders are highly over-rated!!!

Al G - 10-12-2006 at 07:57 PM

Latinos are part of our cultural and that will not change. Americans are running scared. We have started to out source all office type work and now our construction industry is being over run. $30 hr construction labor is down to $7 hr Mexican labor. Again Contractor greed!
Now the average contractor argues "I can not compete" if I do not use cheap Mexican labor. It is accelerating and getting worst. OOPS more tomorrow. Too many Pacificos.

roundtuit - 10-12-2006 at 08:09 PM

Need some kind of a work program, as of now we have grapes to pick in northern Ca and not enough labor. Just think of all the yuppies that may not have their fine merlots this winter. will they work the fields ?????

Al G - 10-12-2006 at 08:21 PM

"Just think of all the yuppies that may not have their fine merlots this winter. will they work the fields ?????"

Sadly NOT! But neither will the welfare dad that hides in the closet when the social worker show up. Our liberal brothers have seen to it that they they do not have to work. that does not stop them from whining at what they do not have.
Unfortunately most of the LA gang have figured this out too.
They are now the target of deportation and are being dumpped in TJ.

roundtuit - 10-12-2006 at 08:29 PM

Sadly enough this is true and the problem is they pass it on to the next generation. I belive welfare should have a work program even if only picking Grapes to make wine for yuppies :lol:

Al G - 10-12-2006 at 08:34 PM

It won't work...we have an aversion to making women work and the man hides in the closet.

Frank - 10-12-2006 at 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
our construction industry is being over run. $30 hr construction labor is down to $7 hr Mexican labor. Again Contractor greed!
Now the average contractor argues "I can not compete" if I do not use cheap Mexican labor. It is accelerating and getting worst. OOPS more tomorrow. Too many Pacificos.

Al, you got paint on me with that broad brush your swinging.

Ive never felt that I cant compete. I dont do jobs based on the lowest price, for me its done on reputation only. There is a difference between a skilled worker and a unskilled worker, and I do know the kinds of contractors your talking about. Bad workmanship due to the lack of supervision and skill will weed them out when things get "skinny". Darwins theory of bad workmanship, Be good or be gone.

BTW $7.00/ hour? The unskilled drunk/rehab lowlifes that stand in front of home depot want $12.00/hour cash at the end of the day. The illegals stand farther down the street so the HOMEOWNERS dont get them confused.

Give me a few guys that want to learn, arent drug addicts, will show up to work and have some pride in there work is all I ask.

roundtuit - 10-12-2006 at 08:46 PM

Frank am like you have been in construction since 1959 Learned from mistakes, common since or watching others. Never to old to learn. I also do jobs based on my rep not low ball. Have had fun in my life teaching younger men the craft, then telling me they found a better paying job to support the family. Made me a happy camper knowing I sent another craftmen out

Don Alley - 10-12-2006 at 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
-------Two words describe the entire problem

ILLEGAL ALIENS , with the emphathise on "ILLEGAL".

I will never understand why folks don't see that.

EVERYBODY that is acting illegally should be cracked down on, both illegal immigrants and illegal gringos employing them. When THAT problem is addressed, and some progress is made, THEN we can work on the folks that are already here ILLEGALLY with some kind of "worker program".

Keep it simple and it can be solved-------muck it up with complexities and it will just get worse, to everybodies detriment.

The "fence" is a first step, and it sure will slow things down to possibly a manageable level. Tunnels and ladders are highly over-rated!!!

I've seen laws made, close up, and I don't agree with those who make the common comparison that unfairly defames sausage.

IMO, the law too often strays from our traditional principals of personal liberty, too often serves only the interests of narrow interests able to bribe legislators and government officials, and too often a law's sole purpose is to bolster the position of politicians.

So any argument with the emphasis on legality doesn't get much traction with me.

Don----I am sorry-----

Barry A. - 10-12-2006 at 09:50 PM

----but I do not have a clue what you are talking about.

roundtuit - 10-12-2006 at 09:52 PM

A little off the subject, But would you hire an unlicence work man (gringo) to do work on you house without a permit knowing you are breaking the law.and have no recourse to protect youself from shottie workmenship

rounduit-------never---not a chanch----

Barry A. - 10-12-2006 at 09:56 PM

---that would really be foolish, IMO.

Dave - 10-12-2006 at 10:05 PM

Just for clarification:

Why do Mexicans refer to this as the "wall of shame"? Do they believe that they have the divine right to travel, live and/or work anywhere, without restriction?

If so, why don't they reciprocate?

Don Alley - 10-12-2006 at 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
----but I do not have a clue what you are talking about.

First, I referenced a common saying comparing the making of laws to the making of sausage.

Second, you posted a comment that used "illegal" or "illegaly" six times, several times in all caps. Just to make myself more clear, I do not share your concern with, or respect for, the law.

Bajaboy - 10-12-2006 at 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by roundtuit
Need some kind of a work program, as of now we have grapes to pick in northern Ca and not enough labor. Just think of all the yuppies that may not have their fine merlots this winter. will they work the fields ?????

Maybe we can't get "Americans" to pick the grapes because market rates are not being paid?! It's funny how politicians will argue for free markets until it comes to labor...then it's all about how we need cheap labor. If the market dictated wages we might have to spend a bit more on our wine but then again those picking the grapes might be able to afford a bottle.

Zac

roundtuit - 10-12-2006 at 10:40 PM

BBSS

anmdivers - 10-13-2006 at 06:26 AM

I dont & never have understood why all Mexicans can not go to the US legally. All my family that lived in Mexico has done it legally & the ones that still live in Mexico have pass ports to go to the US.

And no we dont come from Money

[Edited on 10-13-2006 by anmdivers]

Don Alley------

Barry A. - 10-13-2006 at 07:09 AM

------your feelings about the law notwithstanding, without the "rule of Law" we have NOTHING but chaos-----that is the mainstay of any civilized society.

JESSE - 10-13-2006 at 08:14 AM

You all know my view, i think the US should build a wall the entire lenght of the US border, and i think it would be the best thing to happen to Mexico in a long time. Mexico would eventually fix its internal problems and prosper. And i would really love to see what happens after the US realizes theres not a lot of Mexicans willing to go up north anymore.

DENNIS - 10-13-2006 at 08:16 AM

What the United States needs is a self- cleaning toilet.

JESSE - 10-13-2006 at 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Just for clarification:

Why do Mexicans refer to this as the "wall of shame"? Do they believe that they have the divine right to travel, live and/or work anywhere, without restriction?

If so, why don't they reciprocate?

Mexicans are fed what Televisa and Vicente Fox wants, i cannot understand why people are not saying "congress of shame" or "president of shame" or "ruling class shame".

If you don't want your neighboor building walls, stop crossing over to his side.

I wonder

Baja Bernie - 10-13-2006 at 08:38 AM

Do you think if the wages were the same on both sides of the border everything would level out?

Bet the gringo's in Baja who are hiring a Mexican to work for them would not like this idea at all.

Bet there would still be folks crossing north at border because their is not enough work for them at home.

Bet a bunch of Gringos would head to Mexico to work--if only it were not against the law.

Bet no one has the answer to this one. At least not one that makes any sense.

David K - 10-13-2006 at 08:39 AM

Good posts above... My observations as one who has hired Mexicans here in California.

1) Mexico does not provide a system which keeps its people happily employed at home. The Mexicans who are here (in California) to earn an income would rather be back in their homeland, close to families. Getting the people of Mexico to ignore the shortcomings of their own corrupt government and blame America is something that many third world countries do.

Mexicans that do live here in America now, tell me how pleasant it is that things actually 'work' in America and we have the freedom to complain and newspapers print whatever they want about politicians. I am told that in Mexico if you complain too much, you disappear in the night! Why there isn't more vocal outrage when nothing is done that should be.

2) Mexicans here are not 'slaves', give me a brake! They risk their lives to get here... they break the law to get here... They make in one HOUR here what they make in one DAY in Mexico (if they get a job)! They want to be here... Americans don't go hunting for them in Mexico, bring them far from home and work them to death without pay... THAT is slavery. Every morning I see 50-100 latino men standing on corners seeking a job, any kind of job... $10+ an hour with lunch included is what they work for, happily.

3) Any country has a right to protect itself... the wall is to keep out those who are not supposed to be here. Go through the normal procedures, like everyone else does to enter the United States if you want to get here so bad. We must be doing something right in the U.S. to have to build walls to keep people OUT!

4) Mexicans should be able to come to the United States to live and work under the SAME rules that Mexico applies to Americans who want to live and work in Mexico... You know, get an FM-3, work permit (if you can show that you won't take a job away that a local can do), pay taxes...

If economic freedom is allowed to flurish (change the stupid bank lending rules) and government corruption is halted, then Mexico will have an exploding economy and plenty of good paying jobs there.

It works that way here, and it can there as well... VIVA MEXICO!

More Liberal Effluent

MrBillM - 10-13-2006 at 09:15 AM

Yada, Yada, Yada. We've heard the whining again and again from the Left that this or that won't work, can't work, is doomed to failure and on and on and on.

IF all of the things that the Libs cried wouldn't work actually had not worked, we'd be living in a world we wouldn't recognize. In reality, it's just more excrement spewed to make the goals seem unattainable.

The walls HAVE worked despite any garbage about 11 foot ladders and such. WHERE we have improved the fencing and enforcement, the numbers crossing went way down, forcing the trade onto more unforgiving terrain. As we force that trade onto the MOST unforgiving terrain, the situation will become more manageable, either from natural attrition, a reassessment by potential crossers and/or easier apprehension.

The clearly large majority of Voting Americans who are Pro-Security and favor the increased Border Enforcement makes it a FACT that the Wall will go forward so I suppose that we'll see if the Libs are correct for once or once more "Crying Wolf". Time will tell.

Besides their natural Lefward political spin, there is no doubt that a high percentage frame this issue in terms of their worries that there will be an Anti-American Backlash affecting them as residents. I, too, worry about that, but I view the Illegal Alien issue potentially too damaging to the U.S. economy to ignore.

Speaking of Liberal Thoughts, the a.m. news is that "Air Amerika", the foremost distributor of Liberal views has filed for Bankruptcy, a fitting end for Bankrupt Liberal ideas.

pargo - 10-13-2006 at 09:28 AM

Mexicanos-We love'em, we hate'em, we hire 'em, we dont need 'em. I don't get it at all. In my opinion? Mexicans are, for the most part, the most warm, kindest, hardworking people you'll ever meet. I say fix it so they can come to our country and keep the the wheels turning in our economy. No one can convince me that we'd be better off without them. Make legalization doable for them and streamline the process. Come to think of it, why are we (Americans/US citizens) not required to wait 2 or more hours in line at the border to enter our beloved Baja/Mexico? Come on folks lets face it..we love Mexico and it's people. The only difference between an "illegal" and all those nice mexicanos that we've all met over the years is that the "illegal" guy jumped a fense out of shear desperation because he cannot find the financial wherewithall to make it and provide for his family in his own country. That's only human nature as far as i'm concerned. The human creature will do what it takes to survive. If we were on the other side if the coin, I would jump a fense in a heartbeat ifI knew there were greener pastures on the other side....Es todo, ya se me hiso chicharron la lengua!

pargo - 10-13-2006 at 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Good posts above... My observations as one who has hired Mexicans here in California.

1) Mexico does not provide a system which keeps its people happily employed at home. The Mexicans who are here (in California) to earn an income would rather be back in their homeland, close to families. Getting the people of Mexico to ignore the shortcomings of their own corrupt government and blame America is something that many third world countries do.

Mexicans that do live here in America now, tell me how pleasant it is that things actually 'work' in America and we have the freedom to complain and newspapers print whatever they want about politicians. I am told that in Mexico if you complain too much, you disappear in the night! Why there isn't more vocal outrage when nothing is done that should be.

2) Mexicans here are not 'slaves', give me a brake! They risk their lives to get here... they break the law to get here... They make in one HOUR here what they make in one DAY in Mexico (if they get a job)! They want to be here... Americans don't go hunting for them in Mexico, bring them far from home and work them to death without pay... THAT is slavery. Every morning I see 50-100 latino men standing on corners seeking a job, any kind of job... $10+ an hour with lunch included is what they work for, happily.

3) Any country has a right to protect itself... the wall is to keep out those who are not supposed to be here. Go through the normal procedures, like everyone else does to enter the United States if you want to get here so bad. We must be doing something right in the U.S. to have to build walls to keep people OUT!

4) Mexicans should be able to come to the United States to live and work under the SAME rules that Mexico applies to Americans who want to live and work in Mexico... You know, get an FM-3, work permit (if you can show that you won't take a job away that a local can do), pay taxes...

If economic freedom is allowed to flurish (change the stupid bank lending rules) and government corruption is halted, then Mexico will have an exploding economy and plenty of good paying jobs there.

It works that way here, and it can there as well... VIVA MEXICO!

And by the way folks...level headed and eloquent as always, Dave is right on the button. Hats off to you Dave..eres chingon!

OH, The Humanity !

MrBillM - 10-13-2006 at 09:51 AM

Disregarding the Security issues, the most important consideration is the economic effect. Despite our enforcement procedures up until now, we have an estimated 11-13 Million Illegal Aliens in the U.S. IF there were no enforcement, that number would have Quadrupled or worse. There is NO WAY that we could maintain a satisfactory quality of life for the middle-class American with that sort of influx.

Once we get control of the bleeding I, like most Americans, am in favor of a Legal Immigration Plan which addresses the employment needs of the U.S.

[Edited on 10-13-2006 by MrBillM]

vgabndo - 10-13-2006 at 09:55 AM

Mr. Bill is absolutely correct about walls working. The most famous one, the Berlin Wall worked very well. Very few were able to cross alive. However, it was Bill's sidekick, "Old Wobble Head" who said: "Mr. Gorbechev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL." Why would Reagan say that if "conservatives" thought that impenetratable walls made good neighbors?

I would be interested to know WHO is hiring undocumented aliens. It seems to me to be big corporate agriculture, big non-union meat packers, and people who can afford to hire maids, nannys and gardeners who don't file I-9's. The general political leanings of these folks are pretty well understood. Canada's system seems to work pretty well without a wall.

Cincodemayo - 10-13-2006 at 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

Once we get control of the bleeding I, like most Americans, am in favor of a Legal Immigration Plan which addresses the employment needs of the U.S.

Bill....that's a dead on bullseye. Well put.
What does a medic do first...stop the bleeding before tending to other first aid. Same with our illegal dilema.

JESSE - 10-13-2006 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
There is NO WAY that we could maintain a satisfactory quality of life for the middle-class American with that sort of influx.

The opposite is true, the US needs about 2.5 million immigrants a year in order to keep up with a rapidly aging population and declining birthrates. Without immigrants it would be imposible to stay as the top economic and military power in the next 50 years.

Japan is the perfect example, virtually no immigrants, rapidly aging population, declining birth rates, wich equals a declining population that will eventually put pressure on the pension system. Wich will eventually result on a shrink of their GDP by as much as 30% will China roars by.

Its not as simple as a lot of people think.

Al G - 10-13-2006 at 10:26 AM

"Mr. Gorbechev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL." Why would Reagan say that if "conservatives" thought that impenetratable walls made good neighbors?"

:lol:

Some of the things I read is just unreal.
Unless you were under a rock somewhere you would know that there is no parallel here.
Reagan reunited a country under Democracy. By far the greatest thing a president could ever do.

[Edited on 10-13-2006 by Al G]

DENNIS - 10-13-2006 at 10:28 AM

We should quit thinking of it as a "wall' or "fence'. Instead, we should see it as a traffic control device which will direct the flow of visitors to a port of entry, kinda like those concrete K-rails on the freeway which keep the traffic flowing in one direction.

See Bernie? The solution is simple. Besides, what good is a fence over a tunnel?

Yes stop the bleeding, but first....

Lee - 10-13-2006 at 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

Once we get control of the bleeding I, like most Americans, am in favor of a Legal Immigration Plan which addresses the employment needs of the U.S.

Bill....that's a dead on bullseye. Well put.
What does a medic do first...stop the bleeding before tending to other first aid. Same with our illegal dilema.

The ABCs. Airway management comes first. If someone isn't breathing, bleeding becomes secondary.

I too agree that employment issues are a primary concern on this side of the border. No one really seems to be addressing that issue.

A wall, though, will appease the masses. It's embarassing.

:cool:

baja829 - 10-13-2006 at 11:07 AM

Last post (Don) perfectly states what's happened in the past and unfortunately, likely to happen in the future. We've (and most of our Legislators- right and left) have lost sight of everything for the sake of politics.

That broad brush dumping on the left is way off base. Both far right and far left are way off base as well, but there are millions of us right and left of center, who may not agree with one another, we still have strong beliefs in religion, our Country and a strong desire to avoid human suffering, North or South of the border. The fence won't work, no matter how high! It will just create more animosity, feed hate and further divide all of us.

With regard to Welfare -- update -- since 1997 with the inception of a law called The Workforce Development Act-- anyone receiving Welfare MUST WORK, or go to school. The reference to "men hiding in closets" refers to an AZ. Welfare law, which does not allow a man to live in the house of a welfare recipient. That doesn't mean he doesn't work, nor that she doesn't work. He's just "sleeping" there illegally. That State Welfare law is different from State to State. She must work or go to school (or both, depending on the State) and obtain a skill so she can get a job. There is a Federal limit on how long one can receive welfare -- any 3 out of 5 years and then it's over, regardless of the State. Michigan's laws are the hardest and strictest of all States, hence we got Thompson as Sec. of Health and Human Services in Bush's first term.

It's sad to say, as systems, laws etc., change, one's perception, beliefs and comments are based on old information, no longer valid. We need to look at today's reality. It's substantially different from the Welfare and Job Training Laws of the 60's, 70's and 80's.

A bit ironic -- all of it refers to failed systems in the U.S. whether it be Welfare or the Wall -- all changes in the name of politics. Incidentally, the highest number of Welfare recepients in the 70s, 80s and 90s, were in this order: White, Black, Hispanic and "other".

Rights

PovertyBay - 10-13-2006 at 12:02 PM

There is no question that Mexicans living in the US are a vital part of our economy and that they enrich our culture and way of life. However, they do not have the RIGHT to enter the US without permission. And it is appropriate that our government should decide how many and which Mexicans are allowed to enter the country and integrate into our society. Neither the economic disparity between our two nations, nor persecution of Mexican citizens by a powerful elite, nor any other reason gives these unfortunate souls the RIGHT to enter the US at will. The US must retain the RIGHT to grant or not grant entry, whether through the immigration process, guest worker programs or other means, according to the needs of the nation. Whether enforcement of this RIGHT through border control should be accomplished by a physical barrier or by other means is subject to debate. With regard to humanitarian issues, the problems of the downtrodden in Mexico cannot be overcome simply by granting them all the RIGHT to enter the US at will. Foreign aid should be administered by means other than opening the borders. By the way, I offer this opinion as someone who came through the front door and played by the rules. I never assumed that I had the RIGHT to come to the US, and I appreciate that someone determined I should be welcomed to this country and granted the privilege of staying and working.

why mexicans cant travel easily

shari - 10-13-2006 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by anmdivers
I dont & never have understood why all Mexicans can not go to the US legally. All my family that lived in Mexico has done it legally & the ones that still live in Mexico have pass ports to go to the US.

And no we dont come from Money

Last year my husband and daughter got their passports so we could visit my family in Canada. It was an enlightening experience. First of all you have to go to La Paz which costs about 2,000 pesos per person, then the passport costs 800 pesos and you need lots of perfect documents(lots of mexican documents are flawed and they send you home to fix them), then you need to eat and stay somewhere...so this trip cost us about 8,000 pesos for which we had to save up for months to make as a fishermen makes very little.
The passport is the easy part if you have money and documents (which most folks dont)

Then to get a tourist visa you have to make an appointment at least a month if not more in advance. For this you have to travel to Tijuana with a ton of perfect documents and pay 1,000 pesos just to be granted an interview You pay somebody to fill out the form, pay for the pictures and wait forever in the sun in a very long line. It takes all day. Then you go through a series of lines and interviewers until you get OKed to go to the final big interview. The immigration official then asks tons of questions and surveys the documents. My family did get their visas as we had tons of letters of referrals, plane tickets etc. but I found out that less than 20% actually get the visas they solicit. This sucks big time. Most mexicans don't even bother trying as they already know they would never be granted a visa. Why spend your family fortune trying to get a visa when you most likely won't get it. Lots of people I know who have good jobs and just want to visit the states or Canada and have been turned down for no apparent reason. Sooo that's why so many mexicans enter the states illegally. It's extremely difficult to obtain a visa even if you do have the cash.
So to go visit my family, it cost us about 16,000 pesos. Whew...we sure had a good time though.

vgabndo - 10-13-2006 at 02:22 PM

Al, you miss the point. The question was whether walls worked. Clearly that wall worked. Tearing it down was a good thing. Why are we building another wall? The answer has been covered here. This government isn't willing to damage big business by forcing them to obey the law. They'd rather build an ineffective wall. This isn't about morality, it is about MONEY. (and election year politics)

comitan - 10-13-2006 at 02:27 PM

Vgabndo

Well VG that was short and right to the point, you made the point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:

PovertyBay - 10-13-2006 at 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Al, you miss the point. The question was whether walls worked. Clearly that wall worked. Tearing it down was a good thing. Why are we building another wall? The answer has been covered here. This government isn't willing to damage big business by forcing them to obey the law. They'd rather build an ineffective wall. This isn't about morality, it is about MONEY. (and election year politics)

vgabndo, are you saying that denying employment to illegal immigrants is or can be effective immigration policy? Seems to me that is a very passive way to deal with the problem and I, for one, would prefer to have the federal government deal directly with the problem at the border, rather than have it badger employers (of all sizes) and social service agencies after the fact.

Good Old VGA

MrBillM - 10-13-2006 at 03:28 PM

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...the Berlin Wall was established by a repressive totalitarian regime to keep their Own People confined. A comparison of the U.S. Border efforts with the Berlin Wall would be idiotic to anyone other than a Liberal.

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[Edited on 10-17-2006 by BajaNomad]

Cypress - 10-13-2006 at 03:39 PM

Border control is essential for any nation. What's the point of having a country if you don't have borders. :?:

Legal as opposed to illegal immigration is the issue. When going to Mexico, I go there legally, try to be a good guest. I'm a tourist! The folks coming across the border illegally are only looking for a job. They can't afford to deal with all the red tape/$ etc. Is there an easy answer? :?:

Yes.

comitan - 10-13-2006 at 03:41 PM

Yes Bill VGA Very Good Analisys, me thinks this thread is heading for off topic, you just can't keep it clean I guess your ruts are just to deep to get back on the right track, and if this goes off tropic you won't find me.

Bye Bye

MrBillM - 10-13-2006 at 03:49 PM

Blame the other guy. Any comparison to the Berlin Wall and the current discussion has no validity. I am wondering why he brought it up in the first place. ********************

If you go, Don't let the door hit you............... (well, you know).

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by BajaNomad]

Skeet/Loreto - 10-13-2006 at 07:07 PM

Too the Young Teenager on this Thread:
Please find and Read a Book"Mexifornia" by Dr. Hansen-Former Prof of Classics at Fresno State University.

Then Google "Phillip Sanchez".

Skeet

vgabndo - 10-13-2006 at 07:47 PM

Any questions about why I no longer try to discuss anything on the off-topic should have been answered. :lol:

A wall is a wall. They work both ways. Ours, for the moment, works mostly north-bound. That could easily change.

Actually, anyone who doesn't have a Mexican spouse has highjacked this thread. (myself included) This isn't about the wall. It is about the shame. The shame is that our immigration laws, relating to hiring the undocumented, only apply to those who can't afford to circumvent them. Sound familiar? La Mordida is spelled Political Contribution in English?

PovertyBay - 10-13-2006 at 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
This isn't about the wall. It is about the shame. The shame is that our immigration laws, relating to hiring the undocumented, only apply to those who can't afford to circumvent them

To precisely what shame do you refer? The immigration laws apply to everyone who wishes to be a legal resident or citizen of the US. Perhaps the shame should accrue to those in positions of influence in a country whose citizens are so desperate that their only option is to leave their country to pursue survival. To reiterate, as an immigrant, I am subject to the immigration laws of this country. Although I might have had the means to "circumvent them" I did not. As an employer of many immigrants, I can assure you that the immigration laws apply to other than the destitute, and are carefully enforced by the immigration authorities. No foreign national has the right to circumvent them, and a lack of resources is no excuse.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-14-2006 at 04:58 AM

PovertyBay; Very good and Accruate Words;
In dealing with Vag, one must remember that he is a "Union Man".
In Dealing with Sirenta, one is dealing with a Teenager.

I agree that this is for the Off Topic.

Picking Cotton with Mexicano Families when I was 6 Years Old, again Picking Cotton in Bakersfield Calif when I was 16 yrs Old,
Living and and going to School in the Central Valley of Calif. during the Days of the "Brown Berets and Chavez, visiting and living in Loreto for 35 years, I must agree that I have a deferent Point of View.
My view of course takes in my Education and Work, not only in the Fields, but also in the Field of Criminalogy.

I would think that those making such broad Statements would somehow go out into the Real World and find out the "Facts" for themselves, instead of Depending on the "Spin" being slopped by the Media, and poor Educational System brought Forth by the Advent of "Unions" in to That System!

Most of the Mexicanos that I have known in my Short Lifetime of 75 Years will "Work and Produce" where some of the American Union Employess could not exsit if it were not for Their Unions suppling them with Jobs.

Check the Numbers of Welfare receivers- White, Black, Mexicano in that order.

Anon The Preacher

TMW - 10-14-2006 at 09:13 AM

["It's extremely difficult to obtain a visa even if you do have the cash.
So to go visit my family, it cost us about 16,000 pesos."]

The choice is pay $1600 for a visa or pay a coyote $1500-2000 or more per person and be led across in the middle of the night, maybe die in the desert heat or get killed in a overloaded van or get caught and sent back, money lost. I think the visa plan is better. If you got the money to pay a coyote why not spend it on a visa.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2006 at 02:01 PM

Come on Vag: Harry Bridges would never say Too Much!!

But I do agree it is best on the Off Topic: A Place I do not visit, due to the Vulgar use of Actions and Words and Porn Photos.

Is it not Strange that you and I have such opposite views of Life, yet both love San Nicolas and its People???

Skeet

vgabndo - 10-15-2006 at 02:57 PM

Skeet we probably disagree on less that you think. I think that six out of ten your commandments make for a commonly acceptable moral code! That's more than half. :lol:

Had big business treated their workers like humans, and paid them a living wage, there'd have been no need for unions in the first place. It is interesting that the Carpenters Union has so welcomed documented workers from the south that their monthly "magazine" is bi-lingual. English and Spanish. I believe that "my" union has been very responsible in its effort to utilize this labor force LEGALLY. I really wish that our two governments could get their acts together and make it viable for people who want to work here legally to do so. I hope that these comments are somewhat on topic.

David K - 10-15-2006 at 04:30 PM

Sure, happens when you guarantee someone a job no matter what their perfomance is...

Unions wrecked the American automobile industry also...

Now, what does this have to do with a wall to protect America from illegal entry?

legal!!

SiReNiTa - 10-15-2006 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Disregarding the Security issues, the most important consideration is the economic effect. Despite our enforcement procedures up until now, we have an estimated 11-13 Million Illegal Aliens in the U.S. IF there were no enforcement, that number would have Quadrupled or worse. There is NO WAY that we could maintain a satisfactory quality of life for the middle-class American with that sort of influx.

Once we get control of the bleeding I, like most Americans, am in favor of a Legal Immigration Plan which addresses the employment needs of the U.S.

[Edited on 10-13-2006 by MrBillM]

i second that...I mean i know it can be apain but if both countries would work something out everyone would be close to happy!!

vgabndo - 10-15-2006 at 04:59 PM

David: I cited the non-union meat packing industry as a perfect example of big business creating such an irresistable draw for undocumented workers to cross the border for work. If big corporations were not above the law, and were not allowed to hire illegals, the migrants would have no reason to climb the damned fence. They don't get much of a deal even when they do.

Example:

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/un-sub1005/

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Sure, happens when you guarantee someone a job no matter what their perfomance is...

Unions wrecked the American automobile industry also...

Now, what does this have to do with a wall to protect America from illegal entry?

Everyone knows the unions are riddled lazy third grade drug addicts. We have to pay them three time what they are worth. There is no way you will ever change them. This is why we are no longer completive in the world. The fence would allow us to bring in a controlled hard working work force at a reasonable wage. This way in the years to come a better educate will be coming along (Maybe their children) to help as they (the Mexican) retire. EDITWe will be able to pay these educated worker well. This is the mess the union put us in in the name of better working conditions. If we don't control the border now, there maybe a war between the third graders and the Mexicans.

[Edited on 10-16-2006 by Al G]

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
David: I cited the non-union meat packing industry as a perfect example of big business creating such an irresistable draw for undocumented workers to cross the border for work. If big corporations were not above the law, and were not allowed to hire illegals, the migrants would have no reason to climb the damned fence. They don't get much of a deal even when they do.

Example:

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/un-sub1005/

This is what I am talking about. We need to make them legal to kick the union butt so we can be completive again.

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:10 PM

While we are at it, we need hard working Mexicans to the Government unions.

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:30 PM

No high...30+ year employer...

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
Your previous statements ring hollow and reactionary. I grew up in a family business so I know both sides of the table.

You cannot believe I was referring to every person in every union, That would be reactionary. Our Country has had a gun held, by the unions, to our heads long enough. Please let us be completive. Require union members to be competent and most of all don't try to force employers to hire people they don't want to. Soulpatch I am not your enemy, and I do understand you defense posture, but just sit for a minute and think about who Toyota is.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2006 at 06:20 PM

O.K. Boys and Girls, let us settle down and have a Cooler discussion about the Wall! But first I must address my Post and those who responded:
I only Post from Experience:
First I am only opposed to Unions in the Public Sector.
I was a Fan of Harry Bridges, not for who he represented but the manner in which he operated and controlled a large number of People!
Myex wife retired from Teaching after 30 years- She was forced to go into the new Teachers Union-or loose her Job- Teaching, FireFighters,Policeman are emplyees of the Public- In my eyes they are Special and should not be subject to the many ways a Union conducts its business in a Competative Business--Not allowing an incomptent Teacher to be fired. Using Strike Threats etc.

The Air Controllers found out several years ago.

I think that Unions are good in many cases, their Demize in recent years , I think, is a result of some Bad Habits in the Past, Just like some of the Enron People. Sooner or Later if you "Lie, Cheat, and Steal it will catch up with You.

In Loreto Several years ago, a Cooperative of Fisherman were assembled to Control the Pangeros and Fishing in Loreto.So you spent your money to come to Loreto to Fish. The Coop{Union} assigned you a Person with a Panga to take you Fishing--Some of them had never been in a Panga and knew nothing about fishing!!

On the Schools;; The NEA pushes the Teachers to teach the present Day Children "Lock and Secure" then Hide under your Desk!!

Would it not be better to have a Progrem of Martial Arts/Boxing and teach some to be "Fighters" insteads of Hiding??
Might be that someday one of those Nuts comes into a School with a Gun and a "Fighter Hits him over the Head with a Chair and saves his Clasmates.

Fighter- or teach your children to Hide??

Skeet

Encouraging News

MrBillM - 10-16-2006 at 09:27 AM

Union membership as a percentage of the total work force has been on a steady decline for many years now. At present, it's below Twenty Percent. The majority of union workers are now those who work for Government entities. Millions of people are working in non-union positions and enjoying a satisfactory standard of living.

Having been both an employer and employee in Union and Non-Union positions, I welcome the decline as good news. The greatest fault with Labor Unions is that they promote and protect Mediocre employees.

Packoderm - 10-16-2006 at 09:48 AM

"I welcome the decline as good news."

Didn't you post a while back that you were in favor of abolishing the minimum wage? Maybe you should just illustrate the end result as you invision. Which existing country is most similar to your intended model of a transformed U.S.? Please answer by just naming a country.

vgabndo - 10-16-2006 at 10:14 AM

A very reasonable question Packoderm, I'll be interested to read his answer.

Hook - 10-16-2006 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
A very reasonable question Packoderm, I'll be interested to read his answer.

I wont be. It will be filled with the usual personal attacks/name-calling/generalizations about someone.....really, anyone.......who disagrees with him.

Personally, I'm sick of him ruining legitimate discussions with the invective. And I say this realizing there is much in his beliefs that I agree with. But his method is abhorrant.

For my part, I'm simply going to begin using the "report" feature every time he does it. I encourage others to do so, as well. Maybe Doug will see fit to put him in a corner for awhile for not being able to play by the rules.

He ruins too many good discussions with his attacks. It's pure E.I.B. hero-worship.

Hook - 10-16-2006 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
For my part, I'm simply going to begin using the "report" feature every time he does it.

Why bother Doug with something the community can take care of? If we have enough self-discipline, that is... :lol:

--Larry

Because a temporary or permanent banning seems to fit the crime.

You really think that we, as a community, can change his ways? I dont.

Confused Packo

MrBillM - 10-16-2006 at 03:59 PM

To the best of my knowledge, I have never expressed a desire here for the minimum wage to be abolished. Feel free to search to your heart's content if you think differently. You might find something. I don't spend much thought worrying about the minimum wage or those who earn it.

Union vs Non-Union is an issue divorced from any relation to the Minimum wage which is, to me, a meaningless figure. I've never worked for the minimum wage (even during High School) and I've never met a minimum wage earner who wasn't a little on the slow side. Market forces have forced even MacDonalds and other fast food purveyors to pay above the minimum to be able to get worthwhile help.

I don't need to look to any other country as a model. I think the U.S. is doing quite well managing the Labor Market (discounting the Illegal alien question) and the decline in Union Membership is a consequence of natural market forces. It will continue to decline, although it will stabilize at some point because of the huge numbers of Union members working for the Governments.

DENNIS - 10-16-2006 at 04:36 PM

MrBill has an opinion. I've followed this thread and read strong opinions from him but in no way did I see anything out of line to any objective reasoning.
Is a conservative point of view intolerable here?
The man speaks with a good backup of fact and he is attacked with an onslaught of repulsion.
If you want to rebut the man, rebut what he says.

Mr Bill-------I worked for the Feds for 30 years

Barry A. - 10-16-2006 at 05:00 PM

-------but was never Union, nor did anybody approach me to be Union. I was with the Dept. of Interior, and Dept. of Agriculture.

No Union folks in my shop, at least as far as I knew, so some of us "Govt. folks" did remained un-tainted and really did work for a living.

But I am sure there are more and more Union Members within the Govt., like you say.

DENNIS - 10-16-2006 at 06:54 PM

Barry ----

Do any federal agencies have union contracts? I dont know but, it's hard for me to visualize the CIA going on strike . Also, cant see a union organizer wandering around the Dept. of Interior handing out pamphlets and shaking hands.
Again ... I dont know.

Dennis

Dennis------

Barry A. - 10-16-2006 at 07:18 PM

----I honestly don't know. I was TOTALLY unaware of any Union activities in my area while I was with Interior (1967 to 1996) tho I vaguely remember that there were rumors that the Washington Office had some Union activity.

I was a seasonal Fire Fighter for USFS (Dept. of Ag.) for a year, or so prior to going "permanent" with the Feds in 1967------again no Union activity that I was aware of.

David K - 10-16-2006 at 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
MrBill has an opinion. I've followed this thread and read strong opinions from him but in no way did I see anything out of line to any objective reasoning.
Is a conservative point of view intolerable here?
The man speaks with a good backup of fact and he is attacked with an onslaught of repulsion.
If you want to rebut the man, rebut what he says.

Nice to point out Dennis...

All political sides are welcome, as long as you don't get too political on the 'Baja' boards! The 'Off Topic' board is where that garbage goes.

I have been chastised for my much 'milder' conservative views (and I only posted to counter some far left Dibble, usually)!

Once you get to 'know' the various Nomads, and their leanings you will discover that arguing politics (no matter how much logic or common sense is given) has no affect (or is that effect?)!

I have good friends who are liberal and conservative, but I don't have a clue why they think the way they do! The point is, it doesn't matter in the long run! What does matter is the GOOD FRIENDS part.

Let Baja Nomad be a place where good friends are made!

Join us Nov. 4 in Tijuana rather you be right, left, center, above or below the political spectrum... You just gotta LOVE BAJA!

DENNIS - 10-17-2006 at 06:35 AM

Point well taken, David.
You're right. It seems when arguements are from a faceless source, they can have a tendency to lose logic and common sense, probably from those who would raise their voice in conversation when trying to win a point.

Whine and Cheese

MrBillM - 10-17-2006 at 09:11 AM

It seems to be a congenital trait of the Lefties that they whine and cry when their talking points are challenged with facts and logic. They seem to be easily bullied (as they describe it). Frankly, I can't see a single post in this particular thread that would even remotely approach Bullying. VGA bailed because it was getting too tough for him, but he came right back. If only these guys would keep their word and stay gone.

As far as Public Sector vs. Private Sector union membership, the Private Sector membership has been on a steady decline since the 1960s and now averages below ten percent of the total (non-agricultural) work force. Public Sector Union membership, however, has risen from insignificant in the 1950s to Thirty-Seven percent of the total Government work force with much higher numbers in State and Local work forces, especially those in the Teaching Field (80 percent), those in local law enforcement and Fire Protection. Public Sector union membership continues to rise while Private Sector declines.

As far as all of that being good news, it seems that I am in the majority rather than VGA and Packo. In a Zogby poll taken in April 2005, only 35 % of workers said they would vote to join a union if given the chance. 56 % said they would not vote to join. Additionally, 72 % said they were content with their jobs.

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by MrBillM]

Al G - 10-17-2006 at 09:30 AM

"If only these guys would keep their word and stay gone."

Now wait just a minute MrBillM....How the hell do you expect us to have any FUN if they stay gone!!!
:lol:

SoCalAl - 10-17-2006 at 04:09 PM

Hello All,
From an ex- illegal alien’s perspective.
First and for most, I love this country. No where in the World, with the exception of BOLA or Mulege or Loreto really the whole Baja Peninsula are you free to say and do and express what ever the heck you want, especially if you are a dual citizen. The fact is that we (the Nomads) go to Mexico for varied reason but one is (inexpensive everything). Exploitation? Chale (Nope)… Just convenience and justifiably so as we allow our country (USA) to continue to add stupid laws for political reasons that are the agenda of the upper class (government appointed politicians) so do we do away with our true freedom as they tax the heck out of the hard workers and reward the needy. Porque? For political gain, the conservatives are dishing out the truth and the facts, “let’s fix it” and the liberals are saying “let’s add another program” either way the politicians use these forums to gain a political position while in the meantime we (the workers) pay for it. Wefare or a border wall we (tax payers) will end up forking out the bread…
Is it not awesome how you can work your way into office by pointing fingers of blame on your opponents and lose that office the same way? The difference between Mexican and American government is organization. We (American) figured out a way to steal from the people by telling them it is their fault for what has happened and or by throwing the dog a bone. Those citizens who catch on to the political game and try to do something about it soon come to realize that we (Americans) are in an inevitable political downward spiral that somewhere down the line will crumble.
It is a shame that only when we are literally attacked that we (American) all come together for one cause. But then again that is what makes America great. It is like a family feud, you can fight your brothers and sister till they bleed but don’t let a stranger try to do the same because you got a war on your hands.
The Wall of Shame they say, what’s a shame is it has to come to this. Governments on both sides ought to be ashamed. People from both counties will never learn that they are victims of their own doing. Once we understand that, we will stop chasing our own tail. We argue about illegal aliens, gangs, violence, religion, and all sorts of volatile issues. Just what the politicians ordered a pop corn of issues and the more they pop the happier they are. Truly they are the instigators and we are the ???, well you fill in the blank there.
Like I mentioned earlier, my family brought me here for an opportunity for a better future. Thank God we found it and now I am a citizen just like millions of others all over the world. Since I am not an illegal anymore I have peace of mind and no one sees me as someone taking a job from another American. How ironic what a piece of paper does for the psyche.

Have a great day,
Alex L

David K - 10-17-2006 at 05:57 PM

Thank you Alex... I appreciate your opinion here, very much amigo!

Packoderm - 10-18-2006 at 07:32 AM

" To the best of my knowledge, I have never expressed a desire here for the minimum wage to be abolished."

Maybe it was beercan who said that. It is hard to tell you guys apart sometimes.

I'm glad you didn't list Mexico as your model because it seems that is the way many of you guys seem to want to take us.

And in this Corner....................

MrBillM - 10-18-2006 at 09:34 AM

Unbeaten, Unbowed, Unbloodied and Unashamedly Fighting for Traditional Conservative Values against a wave of Savage and Scurrilous attacks from Servile Minions on the Left, Here's Bill !

I'm a little uncertain regarding the point you want to make regarding Mexico. Are you: 1. Saying that MY group wishes to make the U.S. a model of Mexico, or 2. Make Mexico a model of the U.S. ? Given your previous postings regarding trade, unionism, etc., I'm assuming that you see some Dark Plotting on the part of Conservatives to destroy the Union system and bring the U.S. workers down to the economic level of Mexico.

Given the earlier polling which showed that:
"only 35 % of workers said they would vote to join a union if given the chance. 56 % said they would not vote to join. Additionally, 72 % said they were content with their jobs", and also, the stock market is at record highs with unemployment at near record lows, it would seem that the "Union Alarmist" view is very much in the minority. The Union system is simply suffering a Natural demise. R.I.P. My experiences (and others) with the Unions have been that they defend and promote Mediocre performance on the part of employees, resulting in inferior and/or over-priced products.

The only thing the U.S. Economy should fear is a Democrat Majority.

[Edited on 10-18-2006 by MrBillM]

QuePasaBaja - 10-18-2006 at 02:03 PM

For any american that thinks that there should not be Mexicans in the US, I can not wait until they pay 41$ per pint of strawberrys.

Packoderm - 10-18-2006 at 02:47 PM

" For any american that thinks that there should not be Mexicans in the US, I can not wait until they pay 41$ per pint of strawberrys."

I've heard and read many times that labor represents only about 10% of the average cost of produce. Strawberries at $2.99 per lb. would probably go up to around $3.99 if the picker's wages were quadrupled. "At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor..." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_i...

If illegal labor disappeared, and if the workers were suddenly paid 400% of their current wages, the cost of fruits and vegetables would not go up that high, but I bet the producers would radically increase prices as a punitive measure.

$41 a pound?

bigzaggin - 10-18-2006 at 02:52 PM

Big deal! You forget, this is the richest country in the world! I made that much sleeping in today. Plus, strawberries are YUMMY and TOTALLY worth it!

Now, if kale were $41 a pound THAT would be a problem. You can't give that crap away!

Canards and Crops

MrBillM - 10-18-2006 at 03:19 PM

Hearing the canard about Fruit and Vegetable costs spiraling out of reach IF we control the Illegal Immigration problem is getting a little tiresome, but I have confidence that the Lefties will continue to spout that and other disproven prattle as long as there's someone around dumb enough to believe it.

Packo is correct. The labor force we are discussing only accounts for Ten percent (or less) of the retail cost of the fruit or vegetable. A significant increase would not affect the store price to any significant degree.

Cypress - 10-18-2006 at 03:46 PM

MrBillM is on track, on topic and right on the money. :yes:

bigzaggin. Were you making $41/hr. when you woke up? :biggrin:

David K - 10-18-2006 at 07:19 PM

The minimum wage is low for a reason people!

It is an entry level wage that you are to advance upwards from!

If the minimum wage was all you were allowed to make, then there would be no incentive to IMPROVE YOURSELF. Why would you want to work for a MINIMUM wage???

I was 18 when I made a minimum wage (making pizzas) evenings... it was $2.05 an hour... 1976. Never again after that job did I make so little... Why is anyone happy with that? Minimum wages are not designed to live off of... They are for kids or young adults just getting started and they should be low enough that you get motivated to improve your situation!

I next did construction work on weekend for $5/ hr... then on a CalTrans project for $14/ hr., soon after. I took classes at my local jr. college to learn mechanics and business skills. I learned the most from reading books and using common sense. I worked for many places, but I am happiest when I am self employed using skills I have learned or been shown to provide a service people will pay for.

This is not a communist country (yet). Nobody is keeping anyone from doing better. Minimum wage is not something you should settle for... APPLY yourslves... God gave you EVERYTHING you need to gain the skills to have control over your life. Don't be a slave, don't settle, don't blame... DO IT!

Packoderm - 10-18-2006 at 07:28 PM

David, what you say has merit. However, I don't think that much good could come out of abolishing the minimum wage or letting it lose to inflation to the point where anybody starves or lives out in the streets while working an honest day's work. You should be able to purchase a 6-pack of Budweiser and a pack of cigarette tobacco and papers for an hour of minimum wage. That's not exorbitant.

Al G - 10-18-2006 at 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
David, what you say has merit. However, I don't think that much good could come out of abolishing the minimum wage or letting it lose to inflation to the point where anybody starves or lives out in the streets while working an honest day's work. You should be able to purchase a 6-pack of Budweiser and a pack of cigarette tobacco and papers for an hour of minimum wage. That's not exorbitant.

What can we do for you buddy. your in such misery. Did someone abuse you? You sure have a plugged up mind. Is that from never being right?? I suspect your a 70 style antiwar hippie that never got satisfaction, and still trying to prove your right.
Do not know why I am writing this, I know you can not be helped.
Thanks DK, My climb from min. wage is the same, but the numbers much lower. Your explanation and experience is very solid.

Packoderm - 10-18-2006 at 07:57 PM

Al G, what you say has merit. This isn't the Off Topic section after all. Nobody abused me. I just got into the habit of arguing I guess. I'll knock it off.

This is what happens without a Baja break often enough.

[Edited on 07/17/2004 by Packoderm]

Al G - 10-18-2006 at 08:02 PM

Thank God amigo...I am sorry I came down hard.

David K - 10-18-2006 at 08:08 PM

Pako, it's been a year and 10 months almost since we laughed at Camp Gecko together!

How about joining us on Nov. 4th???

I still remember what Baja Angel said to you and Bedman, etc. about the smell of gasoline... :lol:

We were just getting to know each other and that was her first Baja trip with me... She passed the 'test' with flying colors!

Al G - 10-18-2006 at 08:10 PM

I don't think what I said was enough. You sorta surprised me. People who can stop and look back and come to a different conclusion need more respect then I gave in m last post. I also will read differently now.

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by Al G]

Al G - 10-18-2006 at 08:16 PM

You talk about fumbling the ball :lol:

Like I said You surprised me.

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