BajaNomad - Zapatista Subcomandante Marcos Sharpens the Call for Expropriation of the Means of Production

Zapatista Subcomandante Marcos Sharpens the Call for Expropriation of the Means of Production

BajaNews - 10-15-2006 at 10:01 AM

http://www.narconews.com/Issue43/article2169.html

By Al Giordano
October 15, 2006

LA PAZ, BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR; OCTOBER 14, 2006: The greedy grab by international hotel chains and real estate speculators, among other industries, for the more than 3,000 kilometers of coastline along the Baja California Peninsula has placed its human residents and nature itself under daily attack. Pristine beaches have turned into expensive tourist traps with skyscraping buildings rising higher each day, condos and waterfront parcels sold in English with prices set in dollars, big plans for golf courses, proposals for casinos, corrupt government functionaries and politicians that steal the lands from the poor and sell them to the rich, while bays and inlets that once counted 217 edible species of seafood are turned into open sewers where the dying fish wash up on shore daily.

It is an environmental and human disaster of epic proportions, irreversible, irrevocable. No slow “reform” or “legislation” could stop this death sentence killing Baja – the fourth longest peninsula on earth – even if it were to be tried, but that is a moot point anyway since the members of the Mexican political class have rented themselves out to make the first attacks and behind them come the big money boys of international capitalism to mop it up: All of it. In every corner of the peninsula’s southernmost tip the destruction is visible but the pain of those who suffer most from it is silenced.

But on Friday and Saturday that silence turned into word. Zapatista Subcomandante Marcos – who arrived in Baja California Sur by ferry boat early Friday morning after authorities backed down from their threats to deny him a ticket – heard the testimony of those who witnessed and must live in the ruins of what happened to this Eden on Earth. By midday Saturday, with urgency in his voice, he suggested a path out of this hell in paradise:

“Imagine if the big hotels were owned by you and if you were the administrators… There is a hotel owned by an indigenous community in the state of Hidalgo… The education of all the children of that community is funded through scholarships from the proceeds through their graduation from universities.”

Is there any environmental organization, public agency, newspaper editorial board, congressional bill, or any kind of “reform” that any such do-gooders or pretenders have suggested that could possibly bring this billionaire assault on the land, the water, the air and their residents, to a stop before the damage can’t be repaired? No. And that is why the simple suggestion – that the people take back what once belonged to everyone – is so irresistible. It is why the model of expropriating land refined in 1994 by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN, in its Spanish initials) in the bottom corner of a country called Mexico, the state of Chiapas, is so relevant to the problems in the upper corner of Baja.

On Friday, in Cabo San Lucas, on the peninsula’s tip, Marcos and all who accompanied him heard detailed testimony of what has occurred up and down the coast at an outdoor forum titled “Capitalism: the land, the water, the air” outside that town’s House of Culture.

“We Have to Retake It”

One of those who spoke, Sergio Rodríguez Aroña, had trekked three hours from the ejido El Centenario near La Paz to explain that in his neighborhood “100 percent of the communal land owners have been expelled from their lands… Now the new owners are building a gringo colony called Lomas del Centenario and the former farmers are the pawns and construction workers for the gringos.” The new owners have buried half the mangrove swamps along the salt-water inlet in landfill to build their estates, he reported, and have turned the bay into “a glass of fecal water.” He invited all present to come and see it for themselves the following day.

Sad, what he said, but true. Saturday’s visit to the waterside by Marcos and a swarm of reporters – independent and commercial media alike – revealed a foul smell, dead fish, and clumps of ugly brown matter floating along the shore as neighbors told him what had happened to this once-beautiful (before capital invaded) place. At once point Delegate Zero grabbed a tape recorder from a member of the Other Journalism Road Team and conducted the interviews himself, then handing the apparatus back so the words could be reported (see Kristin Bricker’s upcoming report for the details).

And on the plot of land where Sergio grew up and from where his father, Manuel Rodríquez Barrajan was arrested – spending three years in prison in the 1980s for trying to defend the communal ejido – others, still, took the microphone to tell of their pain and to urge resistance. What is interesting about this fight, like others in the region, is that the government says it is over, that those who once worked this land growing cotton, wheat and alfalfa, that those who once hunted the bay’s floor for clams, oysters, scallops and other shellfish, that those who once fished for squid and shrimp and so many other foods, will never own their lands again; that it’s all a done deal, it has been sold to the foreigners, and tough luck.

But that is not how those who live on the sand streets (without pavement, drainage or any other kind of government service) of El Centenario see it: “We have to organize ourselves to retake it,” said Sergio Rodríguez Aroña.

There is a point at each turn of history when the grievances build to a critical mass to the point that the very legitimacy of the system that causes them collapses. Baja California Sur is on a collision course with that fateful day. And – as is the point of the Other Campaign – this time it is not alone.

The Macossay Doctrine

This week marks the first visit by the man known as Subcomandante Marcos (at least since he became that person two decades ago in the Lacandon Jungle of Chiapas) to Baja California Sur. The busloads of North American tourists, the schmaltzy “spring break” bars along the hotel strips – masking the abuse of impoverished workers, most of them from other parts of Mexico, who clean the rooms, wait the tables, prune the gardens, and do the rest of the grunt work – immediately reminded him of what he had seen last January along the shores of the Yucatán Peninsula at the far other end of Mexico when he began this trek through the entire country.

On Friday, in Cabo San Lucas, he cited the situation in the state of Quintana Roo, where from Cancún through Playa del Carmen, down to Tulum and Chetumal, the “development” (read: destruction) of the Caribbean coast bodes what future money and power have in store for Baja California Sur. And he recalled one of the Other Campaign’s dead: the late Julio Macossay (1949-2006), the labor and environmental lawyer from Playa del Carmen who helped organized this effort ten months ago, only to perish of heart problems later in the Spring. “Julio Macossay said that the destruction of the land is a product of capitalism,” remembered Marcos.

“The development (of tourist resorts) did not generate a single job in Quintana Roo,” the Subcomandante said, noting that “all inclusive” and other resorts bring in workers from out of state and from Guatemala to build and staff their facilities, urging the Baja Sureños to distrust the claims of government and business that tourism development brings jobs and benefits to the locals. (A theme of the Other Journalism’s video newsreel: Delegate Zero Comes to Quintana Roo/A Land of Immigrants.)

But it was in Sergio’s backyard on Saturday that Delegate Zero offered more definition than any moment before along the ten-month Other Campaign trail on the matter of expropriation of the means of production, a theme he had opened up last March in Querétaro, underscored during The First National Workers’ Gathering on April 29, and drove home on May 1.

Specifically, it means entire communities and workers taking back the big hotels in this state and elsewhere. “What this country needs is an uprising, civil and peaceful,” he said. “Out with the hotel owners and may the hotels belong to the people of Baja California Sur!”

Noting that when a situation becomes so severe, as here along this peninsula, “that you either must fight or you will die,” he added: “The people’s instinct is to fight instead of die.”

Then, he expanded the concept beyond that of communities retaking hotels. “Imagine,” said Marcos, challenging the many media workers present, “if a newspaper became property of the workers.”

JESSE - 10-15-2006 at 01:06 PM

Why doesn't he also point out the fact that many of us Mexicanos are too short sighted and dumb to develop what we have. We are as guilty as any foreigner for whats happening in Baja.

Wait a minute

Lee - 10-15-2006 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Why doesn't he also point out the fact that many of us Mexicanos are too short sighted and dumb to develop what we have. We are as guilty as any foreigner for whats happening in Baja.

It sounds like you're blaming the victim? The poor and uneducated are the victims here and perhaps the ability to be far sighted needs to be developed. Dumb? Perhaps naive and innocent better describes those people.

The poor need someone to represent them and their interests. Whoever is speaking out against the injustice and inequity represents them.

Were the Indians who were swindled by the white's that showed up short sighted and dumb?

When the Spanish ruling class entrenched themselves in Mexico back when, they brought the greed and corruption that is here today.

Don't blame the Mexicans, please, especially those who suffer from the benefits of the others.

:cool:

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2006 at 01:47 PM

Jesse:
I do not agree that you are other Mexicanos are Dumb!
I have Traveled and Lived in Baja Sur for nearly 40 years. I have lived with the Poor, known the Rich, advised some to stay in Baja and not go North to be Americanized.

The Sub-Commander is predictable in His words and Actions as he is Controlled by the "Elite Left " out of Mexico City. Like other such movements, if successful, the Elite bunch will take control and keep the Masses at Bay, throwing them a Scrap now and then to try to keep them Happy. Cuba is a Great Example!!
For the many Mexicanos that I have known, there is in their Nature'To produce only what they need for on a Given Day"'. Not to Worry!!

There are others who always want More and are Driven by Hunger for Food and a better way of Life. Such as yourself.

The Solution is not easy, nor will it be Speedy as you know there has always been the saying" It takes a LOng time to Change Mexico".

What would Happen if the Govt. Nationalised all the Big Hotels, as they did the Oil?

What would Happen if the Govt. prevented any workers, other than Locals to do the Construction work on the new Hotels?

Some of the Happyist People I have ever Known have lived most of their Lives in a Cardboard Shack, getting up in the Morning to work or go fishing, herd their Goats, with a Smile on their faces,not concerned about "Tommorrow".

Compare that to the Un Happy Americanos, driving to work which may take 2 hours each way, scratching and Clawing to "Keep up with the Jones", Drinking, Drugging, Cheating, Stealing,Robbing, Having their Children Killed in School and on the Streets, the Prisons overflowing etc.

Shortsighted? I think Not.

JESSE - 10-15-2006 at 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

I do blame us, and i blame us because i know theres a lot more we could do, and we dont, simply because we lack determination and do not want to risk anything.

JESSE - 10-15-2006 at 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Jesse:
I do not agree that you are other Mexicanos are Dumb!
I have Traveled and Lived in Baja Sur for nearly 40 years. I have lived with the Poor, known the Rich, advised some to stay in Baja and not go North to be Americanized.

The Sub-Commander is predictable in His words and Actions as he is Controlled by the "Elite Left " out of Mexico City. Like other such movements, if successful, the Elite bunch will take control and keep the Masses at Bay, throwing them a Scrap now and then to try to keep them Happy. Cuba is a Great Example!!
For the many Mexicanos that I have known, there is in their Nature'To produce only what they need for on a Given Day"'. Not to Worry!!

There are others who always want More and are Driven by Hunger for Food and a better way of Life. Such as yourself.

The Solution is not easy, nor will it be Speedy as you know there has always been the saying" It takes a LOng time to Change Mexico".

What would Happen if the Govt. Nationalised all the Big Hotels, as they did the Oil?

What would Happen if the Govt. prevented any workers, other than Locals to do the Construction work on the new Hotels?

Some of the Happyist People I have ever Known have lived most of their Lives in a Cardboard Shack, getting up in the Morning to work or go fishing, herd their Goats, with a Smile on their faces,not concerned about "Tommorrow".

Compare that to the Un Happy Americanos, driving to work which may take 2 hours each way, scratching and Clawing to "Keep up with the Jones", Drinking, Drugging, Cheating, Stealing,Robbing, Having their Children Killed in School and on the Streets, the Prisons overflowing etc.

Shortsighted? I think Not.

Skeet,

Lets call things for what they are, the Japanese are smart, the Germans are smart, the Chinese are smart. But Mexicans in general, smart? i think the results speak for themselves. Now, i am not saying that all Mexicans are dumb, but in general, theres a lot more dumb people here or a lot less smart people here than what you would normally find in other places. I know it because i see it everyday, i hear it from politicians, i hear it from our policies, i hear it everywhere.

I am not going to support Marcos claims that Mexicans are poor victims, and foreigners are wolves. Its our fault for everything thats happening. We vote politicians into office, they legislate the laws that make this happen, and we fail to do our part and inform ourselves of whats happening and how beneficial it is to us. Then to make it worst, we keep supporting these stupid ignorant politicians by keeping them into office over and over again.

Heres proof of what we are seen in the type of politicians we elect:

Irma serrano

Ex erotic movie star, ignorant extraordinare, who we voted for for senator.

Felix Salgado

Runs around in a Harley with a skull on front, was once arrested for peeing on a street drunk, and has an average IQ of less than 80 points.

Maria Rojo

Another cheap ex erotic star whos claim to fame is supporting obrador and nothing much

Thats just a minor sample, i could go on and on and our congress and senate is full of these types of idiots, so how come we Mexicans are so smart we elect certified idiots to represent us and make our laws?

Lets face it folks, i cannot guarantee that in 30 yrs things might change and this nation will jump into the selected club of developed nations. But for the meantime, we have what we have.

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 04:32 PM

Jesse, We have the same caliber people here influencing a bunch of sub 80 IQ's.
Jane Fonda..Traitor
Barbara Streisand
Dixie Chicks
Cindi Sheehand
Damn there are so many not worth going on.
But this is not about the US it's about Baja and this Zapatista Subcomandante Marcos is just another Castro, but too late the world IS Getting smarter and not so many people believe in something for nothing anymore.
The Mexican people deserves more credit.
Think about it, if there was a one on one election, Calderon would have had a landslide. I think you know that.
Keep the faith Mexico will be a developed nation and will stand proud.

bancoduo - 10-15-2006 at 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Jesse, We have the same caliber people here influencing a bunch of sub 80 IQ's.
Jane Fonda..Traitor
Barbara Streisand
Dixie Chicks
Cindi Sheehand
Damn there are so many not worth going on.

You can add Bush,Cheney,Rumsfield,Rice&FOX news to that list. Damn there are so many not worth going on. :fire:

:moon:

Von - 10-15-2006 at 04:43 PM

I was born in Tijuana, we are not dumb we are some what lazy at times but dumb? My wife is from Agauascalinete, Aguascalinte, and has a masters in civil engineering are we dumb? no. We decided to get off are lazy butt and hustle, I came out of Tj and and we own a few properties here in San diego and Rosarito so whos dumb and whos hustling? you just need to hustle or you'll be the hustled, even if your millionare it doesnt matter............. :smug:

[Edited on 10-15-2006 by Von]

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2006 at 04:44 PM

Well Said Jesse; Buttttttt;

An I.Q. does not make a Kind, caring,Compassionate People such as you see in many of the Doctors in Mexico.

The doctors in the States have excellent I.Q's but not Compassion-Their intent being to Keep up with the Doctor Jones.. Money----

We have the same type in the States-Kinky Freedman- running for Governor of Texas- various Congressmen and Women- Senators that fit into to the High I.Q. but do not have a Lick of "Common Sense".

We Have the Haters- Howard Dean

Many of the Mexicanos I know have much more Compassion than Americanos/Canadains.

Don't sell your self Short-

Skeet

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Von
I was born in Tijuana, we are not dumb we are some what lazy at times but dumb? My wife is from Agauascalinete, Aguascalinte, and has a masters in civil engineering are we dumb? no. We decided to get off are lazy butt and hustle, I came out of Tj and and we own a few properties here in San diego and Rosarito so whos dumb and whos hustling? you just need to hustle or you'll be the hustled, even if your millionare it doesnt matter............. :smug:

[Edited on 10-15-2006 by Von]

Von.. May not mean much to you, but you have my respect amigo.

Al G - 10-15-2006 at 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bancoduo

Quote:

You can add Bush,Cheney,Rumsfield,Rice&FOX news to that list. Damn there are so many not worth going on. :fire:

:moon:

influencing a bunch of sub 80 IQ's.
:lol:

comitan - 10-15-2006 at 05:46 PM

Just what were the IQ's of the people that voted them in? Don't tell me I already know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2006 at 05:52 PM

Von!
Well said and good for you. Hustle, Hustle and you will get there!

My hat is off to you and your Wife.

But like in the States there are People who do not have Hustle, they are content to lead there lives as they see Fit.
Skeet

JESSE - 10-15-2006 at 09:00 PM

Quote:

[Edited on 10-15-2006 by Von]

I am from Tijuana too Von, and i wouldnt say Tijuanenses are lazy at all, but you have Jorge Hank as mayor these days. that says a lot about who we are as a society. I don't like to sugar coat things, so i admit we are not the smartest people around based on our society. Will things change? i believe so, do i believe in Mexico? yes i do. But lets admit the truth, right now, we are as a society, very inmature, and not very smart.

I know plenty of Mexicans who are succesful, smart, and very hardworking, but that does not apply to the mayority.

It hurts, but so far we have always avoided facing reality and accepting our flaws, and that obviously hasnt worked, so lets try what has worked for so many others. admiting the truth, planning to fix mistakes, and working hard to get where we want to go.

Go for it, Sergio!

Dave - 10-15-2006 at 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNews
“We have to organize ourselves to retake it,” said Sergio Rodríguez Aroña.

If this were tried just once and received enough publicity, most of the gringo developers and prospective buyers would get cold feet. Prices would drop and land speculation would again become affordable for the 'little guy'.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-16-2006 at 04:31 AM

Is it "Smart"?
To have the Highest Drug Use in the World?
To have the Highest Prison Population in the World?
To Allow our children to be Taught "Fear" in our Schools?
To consume more Hard Liquor than all other Countries put together?
To have the largest Market for Porn?
To have the Largest number of Pedophilles?
To have "Cheating" as a common Virute?

Now that is "Dumb to Me"!!
Germans Smart?= Remember the N-zi's and Russia "Kicking their Burro's all the way back from Moscow!
Japanese Smart? Remember Pearl Harbor-They got the "Bomb"!

I disagree with you Jesse, In many , many ways, my Freinds in Loreto are much Smarter, living in their Cardboard Shacks--With a Smile on their Face and Compassion in their Hearts!!

HAPPY

Skeet/Loreto

This troubles me

capitolkat - 10-16-2006 at 05:55 AM

After a considerable amount of time in Baja I decided to buy again and spent a lot of time examining the market. Lomas del centenario provided an opportunity to own close to but not on the water. It was not a dense development, no homeowners assn., and essential services but not much superfluous infrastructure- no golf course or club houses etc., and a thorough search of title gave me some comfort and now I have a fidecomiso and deed for my property where I'll be building in 12 months or so. Then this guy comes along and says the ejido owners were kicked off etc.

Like most folks I didn't look for a deal to deprive anyone of any valuable interests, I processed my purchase through the local agencies and the National land review authorities. the Notario signed off and the bank holds the title for me in trust- just as required by Mexican law. I will be sinking $100,000's into construction , hiring a local architect, construction company, landscapers, and other local companies to provide services. The land was never suitable for agriculture- go look at it- but housing is very amenable to the hillside locations and the desert fauna, and flora as we are plotting every plant and will replant every one that is in the house footprint.

Then this guy makes wild accusations about the land and possibly creates ill will for me before I ever show up. Like I said this is upsetting as I've trod gently on the land wherever I've gone and obey the laws of the locality- and have done so here. Norm

And Dave-- thanks a lot pal-- do you support anachy like the loser of the presidential campaign?

[Edited on 10-16-2006 by capitolkat]

JESSE - 10-16-2006 at 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Is it "Smart"?
To have the Highest Drug Use in the World?
To have the Highest Prison Population in the World?
To Allow our children to be Taught "Fear" in our Schools?
To consume more Hard Liquor than all other Countries put together?
To have the largest Market for Porn?
To have the Largest number of Pedophilles?
To have "Cheating" as a common Virute?

Now that is "Dumb to Me"!!
Germans Smart?= Remember the N-zi's and Russia "Kicking their Burro's all the way back from Moscow!
Japanese Smart? Remember Pearl Harbor-They got the "Bomb"!

I disagree with you Jesse, In many , many ways, my Freinds in Loreto are much Smarter, living in their Cardboard Shacks--With a Smile on their Face and Compassion in their Hearts!!

HAPPY

Skeet/Loreto

I find myself in a difficult situation here in La Paz skeet. on one hand i think the lifestyle of paceños is far better than the one we live. They worry about water and electricity, we worry about nukes and deficits, they worry about what to do in the weekend, we worry about how to get that nice home we always wanted with all the toys in a nice area.

But

Paceños are being displaced by foreigners, more and more not being able to buy a home, to get a good job. they are and will slowly lose their lifestyle to people like us. thats reality, and theres not much we can do about that.

We may have a better lifestyle, but we are not smart enough to defend it and to keep it.

Cypress - 10-16-2006 at 09:58 AM

Agree with Al G.

Marcos is just another Castro wanabee. Castro turned an Island paradise into a big work-release program on food stamps. capitolkat's environmental concerns are shared by the vast majority of folks.

Why destroy what you love? :?:

Regarding the IQ's of various ethnic groups, actors, singers etc. :tumble:

Not qualified to judge! :tumble:

gnukid - 10-16-2006 at 11:38 AM

Ya locos, en la paz vivemos en un rancho paraiso, el puerto de illusion, pacenos y extranos tambien-todos estan eguales. Muy tranquilo, pero si, no puede trabajar mucho aqui porque la paz es la paz-muy tranquilo sin tourists, no importe. Solo que usted tiene un coche y gas para manejar en el malecon en la tarde. :cool:

Skeet/Loreto - 10-16-2006 at 04:02 PM

Jesse: I will be in La Paz Nov. 1st and 2nd, will consider it my Loss if I do not get to see and talk to you! I will be traveling with my very good Liberal Freind from the Seattle Area. U2u me you number and I will buy{At the Stand on Jalisco} that is!!
Skeet

gnukid - 10-16-2006 at 04:18 PM

I hope to meet you two, also. Voy. Pero entiendo que no quieres comprar las coasa para el groupo. jaja Puedemos? Nos vemos. Pablo

wilderone - 10-17-2006 at 09:43 AM

Marcos a Castro wannabe? Not so. The military and communist government suppresses and oppresses the people in Cuba and keep it so. Marcos has spearheaded the movement for the RIGHTS of the people, demanding that the government give back the land they unlawfully stole - the complete opposite of what Castro does.
When the people are successful in their roadblocks, hand to hand defensive combat, marches to government offices demanding answers, etc., they then work to create their clinics, schools, milpas - essentially disenfranchising themselves from the oppressive government (which turns their backs on them anyway) and create autonomous communities. Marcos has no intention to rule the indigenous. The indigenous of Chiapas have been pushed further and further into harsh, unproductive highlands while being forced to give up the more favorable land to the government throught its military which, in turn, makes deals with wealthy landowners and foreign multinationals (for oil, coffee, mining). Marcos is right - the same thing is happening in Baja. Marcos is putting things in perspective for these Baja ejidos which need to learn how to deal with the land grab and stand up for their rights. Viva Zapata.

No, it's not

Dave - 10-17-2006 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Marcos is right - the same thing is happening in Baja.

The ejidos are selling their land.

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Marcos is putting things in perspective for these Baja ejidos which need to learn how to deal with the land grab and stand up for their rights. Viva Zapata.

Explain the chain of title. How did the ejidos acquire property? Whose rights were "stood on" ? It wasn't long ago that the ejidos couldn't sell the land. They now have full rights. Viva Zapata!

jimgrms - 10-17-2006 at 11:11 AM

I think if posters are not mexican citizens we should not interfere with the mexican politicsjmho

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by jimgrms]

JESSE - 10-17-2006 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Marcos a Castro wannabe? Not so. The military and communist government suppresses and oppresses the people in Cuba and keep it so. Marcos has spearheaded the movement for the RIGHTS of the people, demanding that the government give back the land they unlawfully stole - the complete opposite of what Castro does.
When the people are successful in their roadblocks, hand to hand defensive combat, marches to government offices demanding answers, etc., they then work to create their clinics, schools, milpas - essentially disenfranchising themselves from the oppressive government (which turns their backs on them anyway) and create autonomous communities. Marcos has no intention to rule the indigenous. The indigenous of Chiapas have been pushed further and further into harsh, unproductive highlands while being forced to give up the more favorable land to the government throught its military which, in turn, makes deals with wealthy landowners and foreign multinationals (for oil, coffee, mining). Marcos is right - the same thing is happening in Baja. Marcos is putting things in perspective for these Baja ejidos which need to learn how to deal with the land grab and stand up for their rights. Viva Zapata.

Baja and Chiapas are completely different things. The locals here are selling their land, nobody is forcing them. If they want to stand up for their rights, the first thing they should do is stop selling their lands. But that aint going to happen.

Marcos in my opinion, is a wannabe revolucionary, and not much more.

JESSE - 10-17-2006 at 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgrms
I think if posters are not mexican citizens we should not interfere with the mexican politicsjmho

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by jimgrms]

As a Mexican i think all sides should be discussing this topic. You guys live here and invest here and thus, you also have rights.

gnukid - 10-17-2006 at 11:28 AM

Jim,

Wrong. All people in mexico have the same rights, visitors, citizens and naturalized citizens. Everyone has a responsibility to maintain societal standards, laws etc. You must participate and be involved to not do so is to contribute to the problems that exist. There is no reason not to be involved in your city, schools, streets, politics etc. where possible. Consider, that others may look to you as an example whatever you do.
Pablo

jimgrms - 10-17-2006 at 11:38 AM

Pablo i enjoy going to mexico, i proably know less than i should about the politics ,i don't think owning a vacation property in baja should give me or ,anyone else the right to interfere in what boils down to being non of our buisness, jim

comitan - 10-17-2006 at 11:40 AM

Well being a homeowner and close to Lomas Centenario.( following quote)ne of those who spoke, Sergio Rodríguez Aroña, had trekked three hours from the ejido El Centenario near La Paz to explain that in his neighborhood “100 percent of the communal land owners have been expelled from their lands… Now the new owners are building a gringo colony called Lomas del Centenario and the former farmers are the pawns and construction workers for the gringos.” The area this man is talking about is low lying hills that you know was not stolen, The area former farmers? rocky hillside. There are houses being built and putting people to work in so much as years ago it was easy to find a worker not now anyone who Wants to work can and are they prospering yes just look at what they drive.

gnukid - 10-17-2006 at 11:56 AM

Jim

It has nothing to do with spefically owning property. All people have the same rights and responsibilities while in mexico. No you can't vote but you must participate and take responsibilty for your actions and you do have equal rights to others and corporations.

I am making the point becuase too many visiting people stand by and say oh well it's none of my business when they witness crimes, littering, destruction of ecosystems etc. e.g. driving quads down the shoreline where animals are nesting and living and so on.

You simply need to change your attitude and begin to care. You say you don't know much about politics, well pay attention to be sure that your behaviour and your neighbors is in line with current standards.

For example, everyone has a responsibilty to check where their donations go, where their taxes go, where their sewage goes, to protect their surrounding ecosystems. Get involved in your community and participate, meet your representatives, check out the issues, they affect you and you action or inaction is relevant to the final result.

Imagine if every non-citizen maintained your attitude? in mexico or abroad?

Cypress - 10-17-2006 at 12:00 PM

Viva Marcos! :spingrin:

Take it from the rich and giving to the poor.

The poor always outnumber the rich! :bounce:

If I've got a couple more pesos/dollars than you,I'm rich.

Shame on me. :no:

Question...

bigzaggin - 10-17-2006 at 06:46 PM

Since when is the ability to develop land a benchmark of intellect and foresight?

Don Alley - 10-18-2006 at 09:15 AM

I suspect that anyone who relies on expropriation to acquire a resort or hotel will not be able to operate one.

And, well, okay, I hear what the Subcomandante has to say, I'm waiting to hear from the Commandante. :biggrin:

Skeet/Loreto - 10-18-2006 at 10:47 AM

gnukid:

You Words fit the States:

Cypress - 10-18-2006 at 11:57 AM

When Castro goes belly-up, Cuba will be the next "destination of choice" for those seeking a home south of the border.

Maybe Marcos can welcome all the boat people fleeing a free Cuba? :light:

Give 'em free housing, medical benefits, education and whatever else they might need. :yes:

gnukid - 10-22-2006 at 08:42 AM

Skeet

I have lived in the community of la paz for almost 20 years I came because I studied and wrote about the long history of Baja California and Alta California and it's interconnections. I work in the surrounding areas of BCS. Most of us here and in all of BCS are not from here historically. The majority are from other parts of mexico and we all live/work in the ocean. For us ecology is a difficult path to evangelize but it is a committment to the future. I understand the reasons behind staying out of others beezwax, the reasons for exploiting land and the ocean-people need to make a living and feed their children-there is a history of practices that may have been considered fine before in terms of dumping garbage and sewage into rivers etc... but now we have a growing community in BCS and we need improved standards and a plan for growth. Everyone who visits or lives here is a participant together. However I am a firm believer that there are options. Never once have I not felt totally welcome as a political participant. I am independent in my thoughts but the number of people who believe in working together in the community to protect the environment and get involved are large. In fact I know of no one in my immediate circle among fisherman, guides, biologists, pacenos, maestros etc... who doesn't agree that we must be heavily involved together, extranos y mexicanos to make sure that politicos and developers or traditional families and extranos don't abuse our community, the land and our way of life for the future. I know it isn't a popular idea, perhaps not here on bajanomads but community action for change, for improved practices in construction and ecology to protect what we have, to reduce our impact is common idealogy here in BCS. What is ironic is that the pueblos look to visiting americans for examples of positive political action and good practices in construction, ecology etc... whatever you do or don't do, you are an example for others.

I apologize in advance if you feel I am being confrontational. I don't have the patience: for people who who drive quads or cars along the beach shorefront-it's illegal by the way and you will have your quad impounded--you are destroying the eggs and living creatures, or for people who build homes without proper sewer systems, or for people who overfish-you will be caught. Nor do I have patience for the lies of politicians and revolutionaries who malign mexicanos y extranos who have done so much for baja.

It rarely happens

Dave - 10-22-2006 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
...for people who who drive quads or cars along the beach shorefront-it's illegal by the way and you will have your quad impounded--you are destroying the eggs and living creatures, or for people who build homes without proper sewer systems, or for people who overfish-you will be caught.

That's why people continue to: Drive on the beach, not build to code and overfish.

If Mexico would just enforce its laws, this place would be paradise.

(For gabachos, that is.) :lol:

wilderone - 10-23-2006 at 09:12 AM

"If Mexico would just enforce its laws, this place would be paradise."

If PEOPLE would just obey the law and use common sense and not be so selfish, "paradise" would not be insidiously destroyed. Take personal responsibility.