BajaNomad

poaching protest in Abreojos

shari - 11-6-2006 at 10:24 AM

Last week some lobster and abalone poachers from San Carlos were caught in this area and held in jail in Abreojos but subsequently released. In response to this enormous problem there was a large protest where thousands of fishermen from the area turned out to show their dissaproval of the way authorities deal with this growing problem. To make a statement, they burned the 2 large pangas complete with new 200 hsp engines. The issue is very hot right now and vigilancia (patrols) have been stepped up...so...visitors please be aware of the laws and don't sneak any lobsters or abalone or you will be severely punished and may lose your vehicle.

Curious...

bigzaggin - 11-6-2006 at 11:54 AM

These protestors, what kind of punishments were they pushing for? I know poaching is a serious issue in those parts but most civilized nations opt to fine - rather than jail - someone for stealing a fish. Also, did it seem that the wanton destruction of two boats got their point accross? Just curious as I'm considering torching a few cop cars today.

Don Alley - 11-6-2006 at 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bigzaggin
These protestors, what kind of punishments were they pushing for? I know poaching is a serious issue in those parts but most civilized nations opt to fine - rather than jail - someone for stealing a fish. Also, did it seem that the wanton destruction of two boats got their point accross? Just curious as I'm considering torching a few cop cars today.


Yeah, they fine rather than jail poachers in "civilized nations" because their jails are so full of murderers, muggers, rapists, child molesters and other civilized types that there's no more room for the poachers.

These were commercial poachers, out for a profit. Fines are only a cost of doing business, to be deducted from the profitable trips where they don't caught. And giving them back their boat and gear? Sure, and we can give robbers back their guns.

comitan - 11-6-2006 at 01:28 PM

Cheers Don.

Diver - 11-6-2006 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
And giving them back their boat and gear? Sure, and we can give robbers back their guns.


Unfortunately, that may be more common sense than Mexican law enforcement can handle !

.

bigzaggin - 11-6-2006 at 02:03 PM

Well, a gun in the hands of someone else is still a lethal weapon...a boat however can do someone a lot of good. Especially in Baja. But I see your point.

I am a little miffed by the recent, militant, "don't poach in Baja" movement on this board which seems to assume posters here are hellbent on poaching (I mean, I didn't notice a "PLEASE DON'T SHOOT DOGS" thread). But maybe we are? Maybe I missed the "Best Places to Poach in Baja" thread?

Bajamatic - 11-6-2006 at 02:33 PM

poachers is just a mean way to label the right wing conservatives who oppose lobster fishing regulations and favor a free market.

[Edited on 11-6-2006 by Bajamatic]

comitan - 11-6-2006 at 02:49 PM

The commercial Poachers were taking food off the the table of the rightful fisherman, you can be sure it won't happen again.

bancoduo - 11-6-2006 at 03:13 PM

The commercial poachers are the ones who no longer want to work for THE MAN They want to keep the profits they work so hard for. The COOP. is nothing more than a "feudal organization".:(:fire::fire:

Mexitron - 11-6-2006 at 03:33 PM

I had always heard pretty positive stuff about the coop in Abreojos--most were happy with it and the folks there got a pretty good living from it. I haven't been there for a few years though.

Don Alley - 11-6-2006 at 03:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bancoduo
The commercial poachers are the ones who no longer want to work for THE MAN They want to keep the profits they work so hard for. The COOP. is nothing more than a "feudal organization".:(:fire::fire:


Maintaining a commercial fishery for pacific lobster and abalone is very difficult. California's commercial fisheries for them failed. It will take discipline, with strict enforcement of regulations based on a good understanding of population dynamics. And perhaps some good luck as well. Otherwise, everyone loses.

There's nothing romantic or heroic about outsiders coming in to steal from a managed fishery.

I suspect you were trolling, bd, but with you one never knows.;D

Al G - 11-6-2006 at 03:51 PM

Baja's fishery's are dieing and I think this is just the beginning of Coop feuds. Gringo poachers will be on the "reasons" to hate gringos list before long and deserve to get their things burned and jailed too.

Bajamatic - 11-6-2006 at 03:57 PM

are these poachers gringos?

[Edited on 11-6-2006 by Bajamatic]

bancoduo - 11-6-2006 at 04:17 PM

If they were gringos they would still be in jail.:cool:

bigzaggin - 11-6-2006 at 04:27 PM

GOOD ONE! :lol:

Bajamatic - 11-6-2006 at 04:27 PM

Shari - I am just curious, in your opinion, who does the poaching, Gringo's or local mexicans?

Duh...

bigzaggin - 11-6-2006 at 04:35 PM

I think it's pretty obvious that gringos are the ones doing all the poaching, otherwise why would Shari waste her breath warning US against it? Unless this site is populated with tons of poach-happy Mexican fisherman only she knows about.

Regardless, one recent study indicates that 73.6% of all dumb, mean and thoughtless acts perpetrated in Baja are the work of evil greedy rich white people from The United States. Get it through your brain Bajamatic: What happens down there is your (our) fault.

Iflyfish - 11-6-2006 at 05:50 PM

Enforcing laws protecting fish and their ecosystem are the only way that these fisheries will survive. It ain't no joke that Abalone fishing on the north coast of California nearly wiped out the species. It is only with serious effort at protection that this species has survived. It ain't no joke that salmon fishing off the Oregon Coast was banned this summer because of devistating runs on the Klamath River. We are living in a time when the results of unbridled exploitation of these resources is going to hit our dinner table.

I think Shari was warning us not to purchase or carry illegal shellfish. I for one appreciate the heads up about increased police oversight of this. I would not want to be caught unknowingly with an illegal lobster. I hope they are successful in their efforts. Theirs will be a long and hard faught battle. I appreciate this sort of information the same way that I appreciate road and enhanced police patrols, road blocks etc.

I have fished Barra and Melaque for many years and have run into nets stretching for miles, killing everything in their path. The locals seemed to feel powerless or the attitude of "live and let live" prevailed. Local Gringo fishermen banded together to put pressure on local government to intervene to stop this practice. I don't know the outcome of this as I have not been back for a number of years.

I just read this week of the predictions that ocean sea food will be extinct by 2048. I saw little effort to stop the illegal fishing off of Barre and I hope that they are more successful in Abreojos.

Human beings do not have a good track record of protecting precious resources. The remoteness of Baja has till now provided some protection for the species that dwell there. I doubt this will last much longer.

I think it is human nature to exploit resources till they are gone. I doubt that race or ethnicity is the issue here. Some societies are better able to actually enforce their laws than other societies. The Bald Eagle through conservation efforts has made a comeback. Eat your lobsters while you may, the day may well come when they are a thing of the past.

Ilfyfish

Don Alley - 11-6-2006 at 05:55 PM

In their book "The Baja Catch" Neil Kelly and Gene Kira have this to say about this area that they call the Pacific Transition Zone:
Quote:

Note that the people of this and most other areas of the Pacific Transition Zone are super sensitive to poaching of abalone, lobster, sea urchins or any other valuable sea life. From Punta Abrjos to Estero de Coyote, they don't want you to dive at all.


Fact: It is illegal for non-Mexicans to take marine life other than finfish.
Fact: It is common for non-Mexicans to take certain prohibited animals, such as squid and clams, in many places in Baja. And local people, including enforcement, may not object.

I see no problem with a poster that lives in a certain area informing us that in her area, stick to the letter of the law or you will be sorry.

However, maybe all these warnings are bogus, and Abrejos folk don't mind gringos taking a few abalones and lobsters. Just to make sure I think Bigzaggin should head there and test the waters. :lol:

bigzaggin - 11-6-2006 at 06:28 PM

THAT'S A SOLID IDEA.

I'll be heading that way in a few days. Look for the guy cruising through town with a bag full of bugs in one hand, a stick of butter in the other. :lol:

Bajaboy - 11-6-2006 at 10:17 PM

I was down with Juan and Shari last week when the events happened. From what I understand, the poachers were Mexican. The boats they use are very fast and powerful. In addition, the poachers are usually armed. I got the feeling that the poachers were on par with some of the drug runners but that was only my opinion.

I guess the Governor of Baja Sur was in Abreojos fishing. Hence, the fisherman (about 3000) from the surrounding villages wanted to protest to him. They burned the poachers boats to make a point to other poachers and to get some media attention.

I might suggest that they hang the poachers like they used to do the cattle rustlers of the west.


Also, I guess the poachers get jailed but post bail and are released.

Zac

shari - 11-7-2006 at 10:16 AM

gracias Iflyfish for your understanding of my intentions with this post. These poachers were Mexican but there are ALOT of tourists who take lobster, abalone, clams etc. illegally and sometimes are unaware of the laws. I am not being militant here, just attempting to forewarn some newbies who may get into trouble. Mexico is awesome until you get into crap and it is wise to be very careful in THIS area anyway. I wasn't aware of some of these laws until recently when I came to know the fisheries inspector here and he advised me to warn the visitors. Also, hawaiin slings are illegal and your spearguns need a special permit.

decope - 11-8-2006 at 07:09 AM

Shari,

I was out your way surfing Punta Choro (I think that is the right spelling). Met a nice guy named Pulga and hung out for a couple of days. We then headed for Abreojos and were there when the poachers were caught. I have a good friend in Abreojos named Chelo who has a pizza place in town and this is how she explained the events to me. The poachers had engine trouble and when the local fishermen came to assist them they noticed a large quantity of fuel on the panga (drums) this aroused thier suspesion, they called ahead and informed the fishermen in town and then towed the panga in. They were met by a mob of hostile fishermen. who upon serching the boat found a GPS with the co-ordanites of the areas best for lobsters up and down the coast.The poachers had to be rescued from the angry mobby by the military. They were jailed and later made to watch as thier pangas were burned. I never found out how the second panga was caught but I imagine there was some skillfull interogating going on. As a side note I was told that the locals were losing up to 300 kilos a night. That a lot of pesos.

Dave

dean miller - 11-8-2006 at 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
"...Also, hawaiin slings are illegal and your spearguns need a special permit."

_______________________________________________

It is established that only rubber powered spear guns have been legal for some years in Baja, Mexico.

According to your posts "Hawaiin slings" whch are rubber powered are also illegal? Is this a recent development? FYI I am 100% in favor of making them illegal. The majority of the time they are used by rank novices who by their lack of skill and the sling's lack of power and accuracy do considerable damage to the fish population by in complete penitration, scaling and nicking, all which are fatal to a fish. So Bravo!

I am unaware that rubber powered spear guns are illegal. Is there a established law on the books or is this a regional enforcement? Please advise.

FYI many years ago...at least 45 or more years ago, the nortamericaos were using CO 2 powered spear guns which could be converted into a topside weapon--these were declared illegal to own, use or bring into all of Mexico.

There was a special point called a point impact or power head that fired a six inch dart via a 22 or 38 cal shell. These were also declared illegal by both the US and Mexico
authorities.

Could these two spear fishing items be what you are referring to as requireing a special pemit?
Please advise.

thank you, DM

jimgrms - 11-8-2006 at 08:03 AM

Shari is warning us if we are caught with illegal shellfish we will pay the price,, so do it at your peril , she knows a gringo is not going to catch 300 lbs of bugs , and make a living out of poaching , so just stay legal and there will be no problems,,,sometimes i don't understand folks they spend tens of thousands of dollars to buy equipto go fishing in baja anb won't go to the trouble to learn the fishing laws, or buy licenses to fish ,because they think its cheaper to bribe there way out if caught

shari - 11-8-2006 at 08:27 AM

Dean, I'll check out your questions with the fisheries officer here.
Last month there was another interesting poacher story at Cedros Island. Because Vigilancia patrol people are not armed....a poacher panga who was approached by what they thought was a vigilancia panga fired a couple of shots at them to scare them off (knowing they aren't armed) however they were mistaken because it wasn't a vigilancia panga but a navy panga who having been shot at....opened fire on the panga with a semi automatic machine gun and killed one, maybe two....I'm not sure. Lots of people think the vigilancia need to be armed....most of the narco pangas are certainly armed and some poachers too.

bigzaggin - 11-8-2006 at 11:22 AM

For once I agree with Shari...these people need more guns. In fact, I can hardly think of a conflict that couldn't use more firepower, not to mention the proven fact that fish guarded by high caliber weaponry taste way better. I read that in the New York Times or something.

Summanus - 11-8-2006 at 11:39 AM

Most ranchers and all outfitters that I have visited in Baja and mainland Mexico are armed with some kind of firepower. These poachers are armed too, so it seems....so why not the vigilantes?

.