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bajajudy - 12-5-2006 at 11:37 AM

Dateline....Puerto Los Cabos, San Jose del Cabo, BCS

Greenpeace(hold the flames, please!) volunteers have chained themselved to two bulldozers with signs that say in Spanish "Stop the destruction of the coasts of Baja"

Will do a follow up when I know more.

Von - 12-5-2006 at 11:50 AM

oh boy.......mud is going to hit the ceiling again

Bruce R Leech - 12-5-2006 at 12:01 PM

start the bulldozers :lol:

Cypress - 12-5-2006 at 12:12 PM

One of those D-9's can rearrange your world before you know it. :no:

Guess it all depends on what sort of world you want. :?:

Bruce R Leech - 12-5-2006 at 12:23 PM

I personally think that Baja need all the boat harbors they can get. and if these guys are operating there bulldozers within the law of Mexico what right dose some radical bunch of collage dropouts have to go in and disrupt them? I hope the see the full strength of the Mexican legal system come down on them.

if they don't like some project why don't the protest it and try to do something while it is in the planing stages> why do they wait and take it out on the contractors who are only doing there job and have no power to scrap the project anyway?

Green Pieces

MrBillM - 12-5-2006 at 12:31 PM

A week or so ago, there was conversation on the Marine Band regarding a large white (Cruiseship ?) that was just offshore around KM 34. It apparently turned out to be a Greenpeace vessel since it had a large "Rainbow" on the side. No idea what they were up to. It doesn't appear any marinas are in progress in our area of the Gulf. I'm sure they've found something to meddle in, though.

Reminds me of a somewhat humorous event involving Greenpeace a few years back when my Navy son was in San Francisco aboard ship for "Fleet Week". A couple of GP Nimrods attached themselves to the anchor chain of one of the Naval Ships so the Captain ordered some additional chain payed out, dropping them into COLD San Francisco Bay. Lesson learned, no harm done. Priceless.

jimgrms - 12-5-2006 at 12:46 PM

Read somewhere that greenpeace is also in the soc near san felipe trying to fine the vaquito dolphin , i wish then luck there is almost none left

Vacquito Dolphin ?

MrBillM - 12-5-2006 at 12:50 PM

"Read somewhere that greenpeace is also in the soc near san felipe trying to fine the vaquito dolphin , i wish then luck there is almost none left"

Do the Dolphin carry Cash or Credit Cards ?

Cypress - 12-5-2006 at 01:00 PM

Saltwater will do a number on the dozers and the rest is left up to the tide. Have been a victim of development. :no:

Guess they said the same thing about the buffalo. :?:

Maybe I'm a buffalo.?

Bruce R Leech - 12-5-2006 at 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Saltwater will do a number on the dozers and the rest is left up to the tide. Have been a victim of development. :no:

Guess they said the same thing about the buffalo. :?:

Maybe I'm a buffalo.?

what are the main objections to the project down there?

Cypress - 12-5-2006 at 01:20 PM

Bruce, Don't know anything about the specific project, but I do know it's not wise to unleash a bunch of D-9's in your neighborhood. :tumble:

surfer jim - 12-5-2006 at 03:55 PM

When dozers are done down south they can come to TJ and start cleaning up the city...... :lol:

Bruce R Leech - 12-5-2006 at 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Bruce, Don't know anything about the specific project, but I do know it's not wise to unleash a bunch of D-9's in your neighborhood. :tumble:

I think it could be good or bad I sure would not mind if they built a nice new marina in my back yard and they could use D10 or 11 if they wanted to. I would just store the dishes on the flower for a while it would not take long with that kind of equipment. :lol:

kellychapman - 12-5-2006 at 08:17 PM

It makes me sick to think about having to "risk" myself as a college dropout to try and help save our planet...of course college is so cheap to attend these days....I guess I get sick because I am too old to be that passionate about wanting to change what the future holds for my grandchildren as a result being part of what wrecked it. There are so many projects or species to try and save I cannot believe they would waste their precious time on a few dozers.....we need MORE boat harbors? we need MORE MORE MORE .........I wish I could do something to help save the Baja Coastline as drastic because that is the reason I moved here.......we need NOTHING but to clean up, finish up, and create an envionment that is as it should be, help with obvious issues, living conditions.....you know what I mean......I have a picture of myself (and ex) standing on the cliff between cabo and san jose in January 82.....it is not even there anymore.....yeah we need more places to drink EAT and be merry.....more is better right?

Bob H - 12-5-2006 at 08:46 PM

Progress is gonna happen, period! That's the way it's always been and always will be.
Bob H

bajalou - 12-5-2006 at 08:51 PM

"I wish I could do something to help save the Baja Coastline as drastic because that is the reason I moved here......."

Every person that comes to a place makes that place change -- Then we want to keep any more changes from happening.

I wish the town I grew up in still only had about 1200 people, a movie theater and soda fountain. But it too has changed--

kellychapman - 12-5-2006 at 09:35 PM

I know I am being ridiculous in not wanting to change, because change is needed.....I mean messing up the coastline and doing harm to the Ecosystem....Hey...I left Las Vegas with a 350,000 population and even the small town I spent almost 25 yrs. has many, many changes.....again a coastline....but....the coastal enviornment was of great importance. There is plenty of room for growth that does not have to involve so much of nature....it has taken many years to have it where it is now and it would be nice to keep it that way........wishful thinking on my part.

kellychapman - 12-5-2006 at 09:36 PM

P.S......it takes so much more then wishing!!!

Mexitron - 12-6-2006 at 07:52 AM

Kelly--I'm sympathetic to your ideals but I think the wisest course would be to simply buy as much coastline as you can where its still cheap in Baja and preserve it that way. Its often too hard and expensive to stop progress near the big cities.

I remember a man named James Dilley who led a movement to buy the land surrounding Laguna Beach, CA for preservation back in the 1970s...wise man--nobody could come close to affording it now except developers.

TMW - 12-6-2006 at 08:29 AM

I think the best thing anyone could do to help the planet is to control population growth. The largest growth is among the poorest people who in turn are starving.

bajalou - 12-6-2006 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I think the best thing anyone could do to help the planet is to control population growth. The largest growth is among the poorest people who in turn are starving.

That's easy Tom, just convince everyone to stop ____ing and everything will be OK.

Don Alley - 12-6-2006 at 08:50 AM

I grew up in Los Angeles in the 50s and 60s. Think that hasn't changed?

But they do have parks. Public beaches, with parking, biking and walking paths. In the hills I used to hike around in, while there are new homes, most development has been hiking and jogging trails.

In other words, while develpment may be inevitable, society recognizes that there are other needs beyond someone making lots of money. Development can also include developing opportunites for public recreation, not just public employment.

What I find sadly lacking in the development of Baja Sur is a lack of consideration for the state's citizens. No development or establishment of accessible coastal parks, just government agencies like Fonatur, Singlar and API that seem bent on a relentless quest to remove the local population from coastal areas, and reserving them for the exclusive use of foreigners.

Of course, I'm talking the social, not nature, environment, something with which Greenpeace has little interest in.

Paula - 12-6-2006 at 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I think the best thing anyone could do to help the planet is to control population growth. The largest growth is among the poorest people who in turn are starving.

That's easy Tom, just convince everyone to stop ____ing and everything will be OK.

Or educate people to use birth control and be sure it is easily available and affordable (free when necessary) to everryone, world wide.

Paula - 12-6-2006 at 09:15 AM

Development may be inevitable, but intelligent, thoughtful planning that takes into account the economic, recreational and esthetic needs of ALL of the population-- not just the people with big bucks and chutzpa-- ought to be a part of the process.

In my opinion, every inch of coastline should be open to all people. You can have waterfront view property without closing beaches. And you can have harbors and launch facilities without closing the most beautiful stretches of shore, such as Puerto Escondido.

Cincodemayo - 12-6-2006 at 12:15 PM

Speaking of Laguna Beach in the 60's and 70's it was paradise...now it's a crime ridden polluted mess so congested it's crazy. You could take off from John Wayne Airport to clear skies but now it's a brown haze just like the L.A. basin. The gang bangers from San Clemente to Mission Pendejo are ruthless just like Montebello, Norwalk and the other cesspools.
Now that's progress! But I still miss IN-N-OUT...Double Doubles baby...

As for Greenpeace I do enjoy what they do to Jap and Russian whaling vessels and longliners...they should just sink em. Bigger issues with the ACLU-The largest terrorist protecting organization in the USA.

[Edited on 12-6-2006 by Cincodemayo]

Bruce R Leech - 12-6-2006 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
Speaking of Laguna Beach in the 60's and 70's it was paradise...now it's a crime ridden polluted mess so congested it's crazy. You could take off from John Wayne Airport to clear skies but now it's a brown haze just like the L.A. basin. The gang bangers from San Clemente to Mission Pendejo are ruthless just like Montebello, Norwalk and the other cesspools.
Now that's progress! But I still miss IN-N-OUT...Double Doubles baby...

As for Greenpeace I do enjoy what they do to Jap and Russian whaling vessels and longliners...they should just sink em. Bigger issues with the ACLU-The largest terrorist protecting organization in the USA.

[Edited on 12-6-2006 by Cincodemayo]

IN-N-OUT...Double Doubles MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Iflyfish - 12-6-2006 at 02:28 PM

I wonder what impact coastal development is having on marine life?

Green Peace is bringing attention to something. What?

They took water samples in the Columbia river and helped increase public awareness of the levels of polution from the Nuclear plants.

What is the hostility about? These people are devoting their lives to protecting and improving the enviorment. I would think that folks on this list would be grateful. These folks are the counterfource to unbridled development.

Iflyfish

Bruce R Leech - 12-6-2006 at 02:36 PM

many of there calluses are good but the way they go about trying to handle them is out and out terrorism. they could accomplish so much more if they would work within the law. just like the protest they are doing down south they are blocking some sort of project and none of us even know why.

the pen is mightier than the sword.

Cypress - 12-6-2006 at 02:55 PM

I'd rather be a "tree hugger" than a "stump jumper".

Unrestricted coastal development spells "doom" to marine wildlife. :no:

Have been a witness to it up close and personal down in what used to be "bayou country" down south. They buried the bayous, called it progress. :no:

The folks that profited from it didn't live on the bayou.

Bruce R Leech - 12-6-2006 at 03:13 PM

you cant say it is OK to brake the law just because there cause is good. and it is not OK to heart some one just because they don't agree with you.

fishbuck - 12-6-2006 at 05:19 PM

Remember "Save The Whales"? A very sucessful campaign to raise public awareness to the plight of our beloved whales. I'm proposing A "Save The Roosterfish" campaign for Baja. Developement is destructive to the habitat of the sealife that is the main reason that I travel to Baja.
You may not like the tactics of Greenpeace and their kind but this discussion was started by their actions and maybe that's just what Baja needs to raise attention to the unchecked greed that is driving all this developement.
And remember...

SAVE THE ROOSTERFISH!

Hook - 12-6-2006 at 07:13 PM

Quote:

Not sure what reality your are living in CDM, but I live smack dab in the middle of those OC digs and the violent crime is virtually non-existent. In fact, Irvine and Mission Pendejo make the top ten list of safest places nationwide with over 100k residents every year.

Crime ridden Laguna Beach?. :lol:

Why would you spout this dung? Disappointed there aren't more A-RABS for you to put in your gunsights??????

Stick to the facts, man......the biggest danger in south OC is being hit by a bimbo on a cell phone while she's driving daddy's Beemer.

fishbuck - 12-6-2006 at 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

Quote:

Wow you pegged that right on. The biggest risk is crossing the street without getting a mercedes hood ornament tatoo on your ass by some boob job Newport blonde on her way to the mall to buy more **** clothes. But he's right about In n Out though. Still the best.

Oh yeah... SAVE THE ROOSTERFISH!

[Edited on 12-7-2006 by fishbuck]

[Edited on 12-7-2006 by Hose A]

jerry - 12-6-2006 at 07:29 PM

its all about money the greenpeace people we see are just radicals that are hired by a bunch of lawers setting things up for big lawsuits causing more attention to the cause more donations to line there pockets with as they use a cute little seal, baby whale,or spotted owl tell me where the money goes?? bruse is right terraism by big lawfirms insted of developers

jerry - 12-6-2006 at 07:38 PM

perhaps all fish should be saved?? as should every corn plant,. cow, swine, chicken,soybeanetc.etc.
first they need to split the people up and then fleece the maltitudes saying the greedy developers are ruining the world save the world and send your check to appese your living in a concreet jungle to us we can help lol

fishbuck - 12-6-2006 at 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
perhaps all fish should be saved?? as should every corn plant,. cow, swine, chicken,soybeanetc.etc.
first they need to split the people up and then fleece the maltitudes saying the greedy developers are ruining the world save the world and send your check to appese your living in a concreet jungle to us we can help lol

Jerry is obviously a developer.

SAVE THE ROOSTERFISH!

jerry - 12-6-2006 at 08:17 PM

no im the gillnetter lesser of the evals?? :bounce:

:bounce\ but i did sell out to a developer does that count??

BajaNomad - 12-6-2006 at 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Dateline....Puerto Los Cabos, San Jose del Cabo, BCS

Greenpeace(hold the flames, please!) volunteers have chained themselved to two bulldozers with signs that say in Spanish "Stop the destruction of the coasts of Baja"

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/oceandefenders/archive/2006/12/...

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/oceandefenders/

jerry - 12-6-2006 at 09:21 PM

they just littered the arch :mad:

but they do look like they could make some good fishfood :bounce:

Bruce R Leech - 12-6-2006 at 10:09 PM

that tractor is not nearly as bad as that sign hanging on the arch :lol:

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 12:52 AM

Thanks BahaNomad for posting the Greenpeace site. I went there and read what this protest is about. I hope all Nomads will go to the site and read what they are attempting to accomplish. As to the issue of lawbreaking, if one is to believe what is stated on the Greenpeace site, the contractors have already broken the law by polluting the wetland they are destroying. Wetlands are the backbone of coastal ecosystems.

Ilfyfish

fishbuck - 12-7-2006 at 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Thanks BahaNomad for posting the Greenpeace site. I went there and read what this protest is about. I hope all Nomads will go to the site and read what they are attempting to accomplish. As to the issue of lawbreaking, if one is to believe what is stated on the Greenpeace site, the contractors have already broken the law by polluting the wetland they are destroying. Wetlands are the backbone of coastal ecosystems.

Ilfyfish

Yeah very cool site. I joined and became an Oceandefender. I need to checkout Angels of the wetlands too. These people are taking action to protect something they love and is important to everyone.

[Edited on 12-7-2006 by fishbuck]

David K - 12-7-2006 at 09:58 AM

Let's hope the Greenpeace ship 'Rainbow Warrior' doesn't destroy any more natural habitat like it did in the South Pacific, smashing into a coral reef (those don't get replaced easily)... "on accident"... If it wasn't there in the first place, that coral reef would still be there.

Giving people your opinion is a good thing (freedom of speech)... Interfering with a local economy, defacing landmarks with banners, acting self-rightous is not... (in my opinion) :saint:

jerry - 12-7-2006 at 10:10 AM

in my opinion the greenpeacers have just found some more sheep to fleece

Cypress - 12-7-2006 at 10:44 AM

Ever heard the term "follow the money"? :?:

Who stands to gain from the development of an area? :?:

It's hard to understand "the progress at any cost" mindset. If you destroy what makes a place special it's not special anymore.

jerry - 12-7-2006 at 10:47 AM

send me enoff money and ill hire a writer to write a artical and lawers to start a law suit to protect the sheep from themselves :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 12-7-2006 at 02:45 PM

There are only "Sheep, SheepDogs, and Wolves"

Which are you!!

Bruce R Leech - 12-7-2006 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There are only "Sheep, SheepDogs, and Wolves"

Which are you!!

I would guess that I am all three :lol:

jerry - 12-7-2006 at 07:20 PM

ya just change your cloths skeet lol

mtgoat666 - 12-7-2006 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Giving people your opinion is a good thing (freedom of speech)... Interfering with a local economy, defacing landmarks with banners, acting self-rightous is not... (in my opinion) :saint:

If everybody sat back and followed the rules and acted like a rule-abiding little girl, then the rapists would never stop to even blink. Rapists in cahoots with politicians don't care for polite opinion.
If it weren't for people taking strong action and occasionally stirring things up in the US, you wouldn't have had the civil rights act, the clean water act, the clean air act and RCRA (do you remember LA smog? remember some rivers before the CWA? remember jim crow laws?),... and if it weren't for people taking to the world stage you would probably have seen the extinction of many whale and dolphin species.
The world is full of old sticks-in-the-mud, and thank god for groups like Greenpeace that feel strongly enough about a cause to get a little self-righteous!

Peace out!

jerry - 12-7-2006 at 08:47 PM

and another fleece in my opinion
the good old i got mine screw you idea

Lee - 12-7-2006 at 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
you cant say it is OK to brake the law just because there cause is good. and it is not OK to heart some one just because they don't agree with you.

The higher good wins -- and if that involves breaking the law, it's up for breaking.

:cool:

Bruce R Leech - 12-7-2006 at 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
you cant say it is OK to brake the law just because there cause is good. and it is not OK to heart some one just because they don't agree with you.

The higher good wins -- and if that involves breaking the law, it's up for breaking.

:cool:

I think Hitler sead something like that :light:

Elementary...

djh - 12-7-2006 at 10:03 PM

I have no soapbox to stand on...

I do work with elementary school kids...

One of the things I teach is conflict resolution. And "rules for fighting fair"...

One of the things the kids find helpful is "attack the problem, NOT the person"...

I also teach about "I language" (avoids endless name calling and blame game...

ex: I think/feel/observe _____ when ______ because _____ and I want _____.

Name calling and marginalizing others (who have a different opinion, view, perspective, or feeling about something) is counterproductive.. and generally further distances & isolates people... it is cyclical.

In the US a 2 party system that propogandizes "their own" and marginalizes "the others" is seriously weakening what was always perceived by the most of the rest of the world as an example to learn from. Diverse views CAN bring much to discussion and outcomes when there is respect and understanding. (notice I didn't say cream puff compromise and chameleon positions...)

Many of us could learn a bit from some of our bright 3rd and 4th graders...!!

Offerring something to consider for any who care to....

Paula - 12-7-2006 at 10:31 PM

Thank you, David.

Another thread that has potential for becoming inflamatory has gone for over 260 posts without doing so. It would be nice to see a friendly discussion here too.

Conflict Resolution

MrBillM - 12-7-2006 at 11:02 PM

As Charles Colson once said (before he was "Saved"):

"If you've got them by the Balls, their Hearts and Minds will Follow".

AMEN.

No suprises there...

djh - 12-7-2006 at 11:06 PM

toneart - 12-7-2006 at 11:07 PM

Just follow your heart and do the right thing. Oh, what's that? The tin man doesn't have a heart? When the uncaring condone the destruction of our environment and incite ridicule against those who are brave enough to take a stand, it makes me angry. You know the way anger manifests when I get my hackles up? Well I don't waste my time on the haters. They already drank the cool aid. I renew my membership with Greenpeace!!!!!! Sorta like the anger that welled up during the election...when open minded people; Liberals, Conservatives and middle of the roaders stood up and opposed the Neocon Tyrants. pee me off and I'll take action! Sorry, haters.

[Edited on 12-8-2006 by toneart]

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 11:28 PM

djh, I like that. Reminds me of the "All I Needed To Learn I Learned In Kindergarten. I cannot quote it but maybe someone else can.

I think that those raising the issue about breaking the law have a legitimate point. So do those who advocate non violent civil disobedience as a means of accomplishing social change. These are legitimate differences of opinion. Those who engage in peaceful non violent civil disobedience need to be prepared to face concequences for their actions.

There are those who advocate for unbridled development. There are those who advocate for no development. There are those who advocate for some sort of controlled development. There is inherent in the development of any area a conflict between various constituencies with vested interests in the outcome.

Bruce says there is a need for as many ports as possible. He is advocating for the commercial and recreational needs that projects like this generate. Who advocates for the needs of the wetlands, birds and mammals, or the environment? It is not in the self-interest of the developer to take into consideration the degradation that might occur along with the project. The developers concerns are that there is a profit in the enterprise and the larger the better. It is appropriate that the developer advocate for his interest. If the environment is to be protected then there must be some entity advocating for it. Who is that legitimate entity? Would there not be resistance on the part of those advocating unbridled development no matter who raised that voice?

Someone had better advocate for the natural environment or it will be gone. You can count on that. You have read on these site scientific predictions of the sea running out of fish. You have seen on this site how people have over fished and are destroying the resource. You have seen in your own community that there are people who care not at all for the needs of other people let alone the environment. There are people in power who would exploit Baja and not give a hoot for the impact on the environment. Who will advocate for the environment?

Some have talked about Greenpeace defacing the rock. That is a removable banner. Who can replace the wetlands when they are gone? Who will care? They have brought this issue to the attention of those who live there and to us Nomads. They are doing their part to advocate for the environment.

The idea of some sort of Nature Conservancy has real merit. It has been successful in our area in saving some vital habitat. In a world where people can own land and do what they want with it there must be safeguards for the community at large.

Iflyfish

Lee - 12-8-2006 at 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I renew my membership with Greenpeace!!!!!! Sorta like the anger that welled up during the election...when open minded people; Liberals, Conservatives and middle of the roaders stood up and opposed the Neocon Tyrants. pee me off and I'll take action! Sorry, hater [Edited on 12-8-2006 by toneart]

The greatest possible good for the greatest possible number of individuals is more St. Thomas Aquinas than Hitler.

In the best case scenario, the "greatest possible number of individuals" would mean all humans.

Greenpeace might have stopped Charles Scammon from reducing the whale population from 30,000 to 2,000 in 10 years.

Questioning, and challenging custom, is sometimes good.

:cool:

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 12:22 AM

Well said Lee.

Iflyfish

fishbuck - 12-8-2006 at 02:52 AM

I remember a while back that they (the mex government?) wanted to turn San Ignasio Lagoon into anthor salt mine. People protested that and showed they cared. They saved that enviornment for the whale and other wildlife. What would have happened if no one said anything? We'd probably have another Guerro Negro type salt operation there.
I live in Newport Beach and I can tell you that the harbor water is filthy. I would never swim in it or eat any fish out of there. The boats' holding tanks sometimes leak and sometimes are dumped in the bay and it's disgusting. Thousands of boats!
Is that what you want at San Jose instead of a beautiful wildlife filled estuary. I'm sure Newport was beautiful once too.
My place is in San Quintin on the bay. It's beautiful, pristen and almost no developement. The water is very pure and the sealife is abundant and safe to eat. Annually 10's of thousands of black brant geese gather there. From what I understand they use to gather in Newport bay but I've never seen one in the 20 years I've lived in Newport. Why is that?
These last remaining pristen places are worth saving.
How could you possibly not care?
Speak out now before it's all gone forever!

[Edited on 12-8-2006 by fishbuck]