BajaNomad - The plight of the vaquita

The plight of the vaquita

BajaNews - 12-8-2006 at 11:37 AM

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-12/bpl-sss120806...

8-Dec-2006
Davina Quarterman

Research published in the academic journal Mammal Review has uncovered the missing link in the depleting population of the vaquita. With a body less than 1.5 m long, the vaquita is the smallest living cetacean (the order Cetacea consists of whales, dolphins and porpoises). It also has one of the smallest ranges (c. 2235 km2) and one of the smallest populations (< 600 individuals based on a 1997 survey). This little porpoise is one of the two most critically endangered small cetaceans in the world, suggesting that its chances of survival are small, just like its population size and area of distribution. So, what actions have been and are being taken to prevent the vaquita’s extinction and promote its recovery" In a recent paper published in Mammal Review, the authors from Mexico and Canada reviewed the scientific issues, described previous and ongoing conservation efforts, and identified remaining obstacles, established priorities, and provided recommendations.

The vaquita is endemic to the north-western corner of the Gulf of California (north of 30º45'N and mainly west of 114º20'W), an area rich and diverse in marine mammals. It is somewhat surprising that the porpoises are limited to such a small area when there are no obvious physical barriers to prevent them from moving into the rest of the Gulf. However, there is no evidence that the vaquita’s overall range has changed in historic times. Acoustic surveys suggest that vaquitas are not only limited to the north-western Gulf all the year-round, but also that their current distribution is more restricted than previously thought – confined to a small area off the eastern coast of the Baja California Peninsula.

What is driving the vaquita towards extinction" It is not, as is so often the case, degradation of its habitat. A risk factor analysis discounted pollution or the drastic reduction of freshwater flow from the Colorado River as primary culprits. It is also not a genetic problem. Genetic analyses and population simulations suggested that the vaquita has always been rare and that its extreme loss of genomic variability occurred over evolutionary time rather than recently owing to human-caused mortality. Instead of those factors, the “smoking gun” in this instance is accidental mortality in fishing gear, something popularly known as “bycatch”.

Large-, medium- and small-mesh gillnets set for fish and shrimp entangle and kill vaquitas far too frequently. The best available quantitative estimate of bycatch refers to only one of the three main fishing ports: 39 vaquitas/yr (95% CI: 14, 93). Current population size could well be around 400 animals. If the vaquita goes extinct, its story will be the chronicle of an announced extinction. For decades scientists from Mexico and abroad, in various international and national fora, have warned the Mexican Government that the vaquita was at risk of being extirpated as a result of the bycatch. The Government has ignored such warnings and chosen to blame the vaquita’s precarious condition on the lack of water in the Colorado River – a result of damming and diversion in the United States. No data have been offered in support of this idea and, in fact, the Upper Gulf remains a very rich and productive ecosystem.

Is the vaquita destined to become the first marine cetacean to go extinct in modern times because of anthropogenic factors" How can this sad prospect be prevented" The small number of porpoises in the current population cannot be expected to withstand continuing incidental mortality. This needs to be eliminated. However, progress towards even reducing, much less stopping, vaquita bycatch has been painfully slow despite efforts to phase-out fishing with gillnets in the core area of vaquita distribution and to devise schemes involving compensation, incentives and alternative livelihoods for fishermen.

For the first time since 1958, when the vaquita was scientifically described and named as a species, the Mexican Government has finally taken specific actions to try to prevent its extinction. On 29 December 2005 the Ministry of Environment declared a Vaquita Refuge that contains within its borders approximately 80% of all verified vaquita sighting positions. In the same decree, the State Governments of Sonora and Baja California were offered $(US)1 million to compensate affected fishermen. Another big step will be to convince the relevant State Governments of the Upper Gulf to support actions proposed by an international vaquita recovery team. These Governments have argued that no action should be taken until a second survey for a new abundance estimate shows definitively that the population is declining.

But the question of how often new estimates or indices must be obtained to monitor trends is a tricky one. Ship surveys are expensive and they cannot be expected to detect population declines or increases on an acceptable timescale for such a critically endangered species. According to one analysis, a single survey in 2006 or 2007 would have a probability of only 11% of detecting a 3%/year decline and a 16% probability of detecting a 10%/year decline. Achieving an acceptable probability (e.g. 95%) of detecting a 3% decline would require annual surveys over a period of 39 years at a cost of approximately $29 million. Moreover, by that time (c. 45 years from now) only some 180 or so vaquitas would be left. Clearly, it is wiser to invest available funds in conservation actions, particularly in ones that offer viable socioeconomic alternatives to fishermen.

Mexico has a very good record in helping endangered marine mammals to recover. There are no better examples anywhere in the world than eastern Pacific gray whales and northern elephant seals, both of which came back from low numbers and now represent true conservation success stories. Similar efforts are needed urgently for the vaquita, a small animal living in a small area with a small, and ever-smaller, population.

The Plight of the Vaquita

MrBillM - 12-8-2006 at 11:48 AM

Reading the article, I don't see the most obvious reason that the Vaquita is nearing extinction. Assuming that we agree the extinction would be BAD, then obviously the blame should be directed at George W. Bush, the one man responsible for ALL of the world's evils.

Osprey - 12-8-2006 at 11:59 AM

Four or five years ago I encountered a large school of very small porpoise here in Palmas Bay on the East Cape. The adults were all the same size, less than 2 meters in length. It appeared that there was at least one juvenile (less than a meter) with each adult I saw. They were moving fast so I didn't have much time to take it all in but there were at least 50 adults in the pod. When I got back to shore I looked up the porpoise in the books I had available at the time and concluded they could not have been harbor porpoise (next to the smallest cetacean). This bay is just 60 miles from the Pacific so that's a long way from their home range. I reported the sighting to Western Outdoor News.

The Sculpin - 12-8-2006 at 12:06 PM

OK, now I get it! In reading the Iraq report, there was an obscure reference to the Vaquita, and that Bush's policies in that regard were clearly not working. Can't remember what their proposed course of action was...it may have been direct talks with gillnetters.....or killer whales....

Ahhhh...democracy in action

fishbuck - 12-9-2006 at 02:36 AM

I thought this was an interesting if somewhat sad post. It seems worthy of a bump back to the top to see if it can generate some discussion other than a few feeble jokes about president Bush.
I was unaware the the little vaquita was in the Cortez. I know that they inhabit some rivers in south america and a few in China.
I, like most people really love to see dolphins and porpoises in the wild.
Here is another example of why it's a bad idea to allow indiscriminate types of fishing like gillnetting, bottom trawling and longlining. Habitat destruction and bycatch.
It does seem as though there is some hope for the little guys. And maybe this will help the tortuava too!
Since I've been on this board I've noticed there's a sort of flippant "me worry?" attitude. Well that's fine. I think it's some sort of gringo interpretation of the "baja attitude". Ya, well go have another drink then.
But I've also noticed a few people who seem to truly love baja and understand it's something to be protected and cherrished. More of a "take only what you need and leave only footprints" idea.
People can make a difference. What type of baja person are you?

Iflyfish - 12-9-2006 at 03:08 AM

MrBillM

You wrote "The Plight of the Vaquita

Reading the article, I don't see the most obvious reason that the Vaquita is nearing extinction. Assuming that we agree the extinction would be BAD, then obviously the blame should be directed at George W. Bush, the one man responsible for ALL of the world's evils."

I can see why you would bring up Bush in this context though I don’t think he is responsible in this case. He did not invade and occupy these pods of Vaquita without provocation as he did in Iraq. The Vaquita have not declared him a war criminal as many have after his unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq. The Vaquita have not been likened him to Hitler and his invasion and occupation of Sudetenland. I think he has enough problems on his hand now and that he does not deserve the slur that he may be responsible for the plight of the Vaquita. Please cut George II some slack, ok?

Fishbuck

Well said.

Iflyfish

capt. mike - 12-9-2006 at 06:39 AM

this is all well and good (except knocking the Prez.....go do that on the political or open topic sections, ok?!)

now...what i really want to know here is what kind of bait and rigs should be used to catch these critters, and the best way to cook and eat 'em!! :biggrin:

grill, smoke, batter fried??

Cypress - 12-9-2006 at 07:24 AM

Gill nets ought to be eliminated before they eliminate the fish, marine mammals, birds etc.

Have used 'em, they can be very destructive. They've already been baned in some areas with amazing results. Depleted fish stocks recovered. :biggrin:

Iflyfish - 12-9-2006 at 11:18 AM

I apologize for the retort to MrBillM, though a fisherman I sometimes get hooked.

I have seen these nets strung literaly for miles in the sea of Cortez. Incredibly destructive way to fish. I think you got it right Cypress.

Iflyfish

Bad Boy George

MrBillM - 12-9-2006 at 11:26 AM

No Harm done. The GWB reference was Sarcasm ! A little bit of Humor.

Since the Greenies have taken to blaming Bush for every natural and unnatural occurence on Earth (including Katrina and other disasters), I was saying that this must be his fault, too.

mtgoat666 - 12-9-2006 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
No Harm done. The GWB reference was Sarcasm ! A little bit of Humor.

Since the Greenies have taken to blaming Bush for every natural and unnatural occurence on Earth (including Katrina and other disasters), I was saying that this must be his fault, too.

Certainly, W has done more harm than good for endangered species,... so, couldn't agree with you more, W and his ilk are setting the example and are at fault. W, as superpower leader, is the poster child and titular head of the anti-environment industrialists. It's his fault. For once, you are correct, Mr BillM. In your old age, you are finally becoming a humanist.

Cabra al Carbon

MrBillM - 12-9-2006 at 12:17 PM

I've been insulted by the best, but calling me a humanist is beyond the pale.

Take it BACK !

DENNIS - 12-9-2006 at 12:30 PM

Maybe he meant Humorist.

Hook - 12-9-2006 at 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Four or five years ago I encountered a large school of very small porpoise here in Palmas Bay on the East Cape. The adults were all the same size, less than 2 meters in length. It appeared that there was at least one juvenile (less than a meter) with each adult I saw. They were moving fast so I didn't have much time to take it all in but there were at least 50 adults in the pod. When I got back to shore I looked up the porpoise in the books I had available at the time and concluded they could not have been harbor porpoise (next to the smallest cetacean). This bay is just 60 miles from the Pacific so that's a long way from their home range. I reported the sighting to Western Outdoor News.

Osprey, it is my understanding that the vaquita's outer flesh is actually a pinkish color. That would be a more noticeable indicator of your seeing a school of them so far out of their range, if that is what you were speculating.

jerry - 12-9-2006 at 01:25 PM

osprey
if its true to corse they will make the defenation of this vaquita porpoise to include its range and when its found to be everywhere else it will be denied because of the defination it couldnt be a vaquita porpoise

this is what happened to the spotted owl it was entered into the definition that it only nested in old growth timber and when it was seen nesting in second growth, old barns, oak trees, cactus and church steeples all over the western united states and not indangered at all it was denied because by the defenation it only nested in old groth timberit cant be a spotted owl

Cypress - 12-9-2006 at 01:43 PM

The vaquita porpoise is found everywhere? That's a news flash. :light:

About those spotted owls. Was anybody gill-netting 'em?

windgrrl - 12-9-2006 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Reading the article, I don't see the most obvious reason that the Vaquita is nearing extinction. Assuming that we agree the extinction would be BAD, then obviously the blame should be directed at George W. Bush, the one man responsible for ALL of the world's evils.

Phew - I thought it was "our" fault! Any old scape goat will do.

David K - 12-9-2006 at 02:04 PM

Vaquita images from the 'net...

jerry - 12-9-2006 at 02:18 PM

noone was gillnetting themfuzzy little owls but this caused the shutt down of logging on allmost all federal and state lands and some private lands the timber is now rotting it allso stopped timber tax income to the states and the schools now are begging
private timber co are coming back strong notice the price of housing its all because of a phony trumped up lawsuites by greenys
we all will pay dearly

Cypress - 12-9-2006 at 02:31 PM

David K. Thanks. A picture's worth a thousand words.

fishbuck - 12-9-2006 at 02:46 PM

Yeah that's more like it. Even Jerry the Gillnetter/Developer/Antienviornmentalist chimed in this time!

jerry - 12-9-2006 at 02:56 PM

fishbuck im not really a gillnetter sure not a developer but i am an inviormentalist
i just dont need a flock around me or people with other agendas

fishbuck - 12-9-2006 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
fishbuck im not really a gillnetter sure not a developer but i am an inviormentalist
i just dont need a flock around me or people with other agendas

I know Jerry. I'm just teasing you a little. :cool:

Iflyfish - 12-9-2006 at 03:28 PM

David K

Thanks for posting. What a cool looking animal. I hope I get to see one in my lifetime.

Your photo clearly demonstrates the problem.

Iflyfish

would it ever be possible

kellychapman - 12-10-2006 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

it would be so nice to learn, talk, discuss, ANYTHING that did not have to have some George Bush crap to do with it. Give it a friggin' rest will ya already....stop beating the dead horse... This is very interesting information that deserves the respect to stand alone and talked about seriously....
Thank you for the original information and I will research more as it is interesting....

thank you

kellychapman - 12-10-2006 at 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
I thought this was an interesting if somewhat sad post. It seems worthy of a bump back to the top to see if it can generate some discussion other than a few feeble jokes about president Bush.
I was unaware the the little vaquita was in the Cortez. I know that they inhabit some rivers in south america and a few in China.
I, like most people really love to see dolphins and porpoises in the wild.
Here is another example of why it's a bad idea to allow indiscriminate types of fishing like gillnetting, bottom trawling and longlining. Habitat destruction and bycatch.
It does seem as though there is some hope for the little guys. And maybe this will help the tortuava too!
Since I've been on this board I've noticed there's a sort of flippant "me worry?" attitude. Well that's fine. I think it's some sort of gringo interpretation of the "baja attitude". Ya, well go have another drink then.
But I've also noticed a few people who seem to truly love baja and understand it's something to be protected and cherrished. More of a "take only what you need and leave only footprints" idea.
People can make a difference. What type of baja person are you?

I am grateful to know that others agree that we are sick of the places to use political crap every chance possible, "creative avoidance" so we really do not look at the real issue. Maybe there should be a thread for "Political and Bush" comments only so we can stick to the subject at hand. I love what you had to say about the horrible sadness if such a thing should happen. I truly love Baja and the world for that matter and feel just as you expressed. Merry Christmas or Merry Kiss A Moose....or Feliz Navidad....
Kelly

that is what I would call

kellychapman - 12-10-2006 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

a heavenly experience....I am jealous.....

I have a question....

kellychapman - 12-10-2006 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
this is all well and good (except knocking the Prez.....go do that on the political or open topic sections, ok?!)

now...what i really want to know here is what kind of bait and rigs should be used to catch these critters, and the best way to cook and eat 'em!! :biggrin:

grill, smoke, batter fried??

do you really find yourself that funny :?:

because I want to let you know that you are not....you sound like an idiot....and you really make me want to sick my stafforshire terrier on you and tear your fishing arm off and bring it back to me so I could beat you with it...and then of course stuff it where your head must be when you say something so stupid... :fire:

kellychapman - 12-10-2006 at 04:52 PM

http://www.panda.org/how_you_can_help/index.cfm...here is a website I finally found just to see what this beautiful Vaquita even looked like...just in case anyone wants to see one.
Please forgive my horrible temper as I do not mean to be so easy to bait.. :yes:

Capt Mike...I really did not mean it .....only for a second.....

this is very important if not informative if your interested....and bittersweet...it would be nice to help if we can....

Extremist Thinking ?

MrBillM - 12-10-2006 at 05:00 PM

Originally posted by capt. mike:

"this is all well and good (except knocking the Prez.....go do that on the political or open topic sections, ok?!)"

"now...what i really want to know here is what kind of bait and rigs should be used to catch these critters, and the best way to cook and eat 'em!!
grill, smoke, batter fried??"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kellychapman's retort:

"do you really find yourself that funny because I want to let you know that you are not....you sound like an idiot....and you really make me want to sick my stafforshire terrier on you and tear your fishing arm off and bring it back to me so I could beat you with it...and then of course stuff it where your head must be when you say something so stupid..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, we are talking about another (good tasting ?) sea creature here, aren't we ? Whatever intelligent thought they might have, they aren't on the level of Human Consciousness. They're just another Lower Mammal, much like any others on land which we utilize for nourishment.

If you're a Vegan, say so and we'll know what your frame of reference is. If not, and you eat meat, then you're simply being a Hypocrite.

I have heard from some fishermen that the other Dolphins are good tasting, but I don't know about the Vaquitas. Although I have no intention of breaking any laws to do so, I'd be willing to find out how they do taste if I come across any that have already been caught.

Boy, Now I'm hungry. No Vaquita so tonight's dead chicken will have to do.

kellychapman - 12-10-2006 at 09:53 PM

I am not a vegan....I simply do not think eating the smallest endangered creatures on this earth necessary. It is very sad with the abundance of food available we have to make statements with only 600 left before they no longer exist. It is a sad state of affairs.......I am not a hyprcrite for having some respect for the delicate balance that is left on this planet....and that is really the point and the mentality of those that don't that don't give a crap. They will all be gone soon so I do should not let it bother me.....should be getting used to it by now.

David K - 12-11-2006 at 09:15 AM

That link doesn't work Kelly... Is there a photo different than the ones I posted in that WWF web site?

Bill, sometimes the game fish 'dorado' (mahi mahi) are called by their English name 'dolphinfish' or just dolphin and that may have been the good eating fish? I don't think anyone eats the mammal dolphin (or porpoise), do they?

Don Alley - 12-11-2006 at 11:13 AM

Dolphin are eaten in Japan.

Here's a video of the Taiji Bay dolphin slaughter:
http://www.eurocbc.org/taijislaughter.mpg

vandenberg - 12-11-2006 at 11:36 AM

Mike,
I thought your post was rather funny, tongue in cheek funny.
Have to have some sense of humor in this f$#&ed up world.
I heard teguila goes well with it. :biggrin:

Visual Images

MrBillM - 12-11-2006 at 11:49 AM

The photos of the netted Dolphin look about the same as any large fish would. I imagine photos of slaughtered steers, Pigs or Goats would have the same impact. Heck, a photo of a slaughtered Cow might start a riot in India.

Kelly's correct on one thing, though. We may as well get over the concern. At its current levels, the Vaquita's demise is inevitable.

jerry - 12-11-2006 at 11:57 AM

hmmmm kelly just said thier in south america and china too oh oh now there in anabundence
may have to save them little fish they been eating ?and then theres the stuff the little fish eat its gona be indangered too :lol:

Cypress - 12-11-2006 at 11:59 AM

Most folks would have to be mighty hungry to kill and eat an endangered species.

your so damn right....

kellychapman - 12-11-2006 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
hmmmm kelly just said thier in south america and china too oh oh now there in anabundence
may have to save them little fish they been eating ?and then theres the stuff the little fish eat its gona be indangered too :lol:

...it really does have to make you almost laugh at the viscous circle that goes around dealing with balance. Or else it is enough to make me waste my time crying about it....I am just a very sensitive person that would save the world if I could and in reality....it is tought just doing what I can right here on a daily basis...drink tequlla and be happy!!!! :bounce:

what isn't

kellychapman - 12-11-2006 at 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley

Dolphin are eaten in Japan.

Here's a video of the Taiji Bay dolphin slaughter:
http://www.eurocbc.org/taijislaughter.mpg

eaten by the Japanese???? talk about rape and pillage of our oceans...and everything on earth that is endangered to stuff in their faces while they take over the world . Let's not even go there....talk about a sensitive subject...

Dolphins

Stickers - 12-11-2006 at 05:43 PM

"The anterior appendages contain the skeletal remnants of five digits that form the flippers, which the animal uses primarily as stabilizers, although occasionally in an oar like fashion."

Seems these creatures were once like us but decided to go for a swim at San Felipe and not come back out of the water. They are distant relatives but seem kinder than humans and don't invade other countries. JUST A JOKE

:spingrin:

Iflyfish - 12-11-2006 at 05:53 PM

Some consider these fellow sentient beings. Current neurological research points to their possession of similar neuroanatomy to our own.

Have you heard the reports of dolphins helping drowning people?

I have gutted many a fish, these photos make me ill.

Iflyfish

kellychapman - 12-11-2006 at 06:37 PM

http://www.panda.org/how_you_can_help/index.cfm I think the reason it did not work as I had an extra word in the other one I posted. I am still looking for more pictures as they do not seem easy to find....hope this works....

this is how it worked for me...

kellychapman - 12-11-2006 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kellychapman
http://www.panda.org/how_you_can_help/index.cfm I think the reason it did not work as I had an extra word in the other one I posted. I am still looking for more pictures as they do not seem easy to find....hope this works....

go to the website listed above, when it downloads completely you will see a search box on the upper right hand...put vaquita in it and hit search....another page will come up with various sites to go to, however, the very first one www vaquita , the smallest cetacean restricted to a very small area, is the one where I found the picture of this beautiful mammal.. I am sure there is an easier way for some, but this was the way I got to find what one looks like.....let me know if that worked and what you think...... :bounce:

I tried many a site to find a picture and this is the only one yet I have had success with...if anyone finds more please post them....

jerry - 12-11-2006 at 07:21 PM

in my opinion humans have upset the balances but are unable to restore that balance because it is not in thier intrest of the ppl that your sending the money to they have another agenda namly stuffing there pockets full of donated buck
i dont think all the money in the world will restore that balance if one looks at the big picture to restore this balance we need to iliminate all human interventing and that means getting rid of all humans
even then the dinasours are gone and not by human hands and evolution will continue

I am in total agreement....

kellychapman - 12-11-2006 at 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Some consider these fellow sentient beings. Current neurological research points to their possession of similar neuroanatomy to our own.

Have you heard the reports of dolphins helping drowning people?

I have gutted many a fish, these photos make me ill.

Iflyfish

those photos made me ill also...

Iflyfish - 12-11-2006 at 07:44 PM

Jerry

You may be correct in your assessment of the imbalances created by humans. I understand but question your solution of eliminating humans. Though on careful consideration that might just be what we are about now anyway. That is what the Ghia sp? Folks would propose

Sometimes in regard to these issues I feel discouraged to the point of cynicism.

I once had the privilege of hearing Helen Caldecott, M.D., who started the group Physicians for Social Responsibility, present on the topic of Nuclear disarmament. She showed us a sheet of computer paper, with black lines representing nuclear weapons and mirv, multiple missile warheads in a thicker black. The unrolled sheet spread across an entire stage. Thousands of them when counting the mirvs. There was a stunned silence. Then came sobbing. Then anger. She advised to have all of the feelings involved, to go through them, not to deny them. She said that out of this process would emerge a sense of what we, as individuals must do to address these issues. She pointed out that there were thousands of like-minded people around the world. She pointed out that many people in the world were working hard to address this issue. She advised, “Do not give up hope even though part of the resolution of this issue involves going through a powerful sense of impotence”. I liked what she had to say and share it in the spirit of good will with someone I know deeply cares or s/he would not have such powerful feelings as I have read you express on this forum. The opposite of love is not hate it is indifference. You are not indifferent when it comes to the environment. You are passionate in your feelings and beliefs. I appreciate that when reading your posts.

Iflyfishwhennothopingforbettertimes

Bizarre !

MrBillM - 12-11-2006 at 11:58 PM

There are a few positions that, when promoted by someone, define said person as a complete NUT case.

Seriously advocating that the Earth would be a better place if all human life was exterminated is right at the top of that list.

Congratulations on qualifying.

jerry - 12-12-2006 at 12:05 AM

perhaps you should read my post again thats not what i said
i said to restore the balance it would be nessary to illiminate humans i did not advocate anything

Iflyfish - 12-12-2006 at 02:34 AM

Jerry,

I actually thought the idea had some merit as I read it. It is the practicality of it that I think is problematic. Ok, I did distort your post, just for the fun of it. It is a sort of elegant solution, but who would eliminate the last one. If I was the last one holding the kool aide jar, it might be tempting to wait for a ribectomy. Course with my old ribs it would probably be my luck to get a cranky one. With my luck these days they might take my funny bone.

Iflyfishwhennotcontemplatingaribectomy

eating these beautiful creatures

capt. mike - 12-12-2006 at 05:35 AM

after all the responses and in double secret super - reflextion, i have seen the light!! i will not attempt any repast indulging in whatever tastes these paucimonious animals may offer.

From now on i am sticking only with the smoked baby seals! :bounce:

Say What ?

MrBillM - 12-12-2006 at 07:43 AM

Jerry's Quote:

" i dont think all the money in the world will restore that balance if one looks at the big picture to restore this balance we need to iliminate all human interventing and that means getting rid of all humans".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain to the rest of us what "getting rid of all humans" means in this context. Perhaps that isn't what you mean, but it is what you wrote. I don't have any reading comprehension problem, but you certainly have a writing problem if you meant something different.

In your short disclaimer, you "write" that you were not advocating anything, but the words " we need to " is clearly advocacy, otherwise you would have written "you would need to" or "it would be necessary to". Since you have claimed that you were not advocating the elimination of the Human race, I will accept that you're only guilty of poor compostion.

Having heard so often from "Greenies" in the past regarding the necessary elimination of man so that the Earth could heal, I took your poorly constructed sentence at face value.

[Edited on 12-12-2006 by MrBillM]

Don Alley - 12-12-2006 at 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
perhaps you should read my post again thats not what i said
i said to restore the balance it would be nessary to illiminate humans i did not advocate anything

Maybe Jerry should have spelled that "illuminate." :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
There are a few positions that, when promoted by someone, define said person as a complete NUT case.

Now guess who comes to mind? :lol:

Cypress - 12-12-2006 at 09:13 AM

If gill nets aren't eliminated the loss of the vaquita will be accompanied by the disappearance of just about everything else, including the local and visiting fishermen. :no:

In a Blind Alley

MrBillM - 12-12-2006 at 11:41 AM

I couldn't hazard a guess regarding who Alley might have in mind. Since I haven't offered any opinions (except as Sarcasm) lacking rational thoughtfulness, it surely couldn't be directed at me. Certainly nothing could be as extreme as calling for the extermination of the entire human race. It would be rational in today's society to promote the demise of certain segments of the world population, notably those mohammed-heads in dresses who seem determined to eliminate our side and are actively working at doing so.

I don't even advocate the extermination of the Vaquita, tasty or not. However, I don't really care, especially since it's beyond my control. Whatever occurs won't change my life (or anyone else's) in any respect. I suspect that those who are most vocal regarding the Vaquita won't give it too much thought once it's gone. There are plenty of other animals to occupy their time and concern. For those who claim a devout concern, I would suggest they move to the Rain Forest Somewhere so they can spend their waking hours campaigning on behalf of the numerous species that are going extinct every year. It should be enough to occupy their idle time.

[Edited on 12-12-2006 by MrBillM]

Oh Please.....

kellychapman - 12-12-2006 at 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
in my opinion humans have upset the balances but are unable to restore that balance because it is not in thier intrest of the ppl that your sending the money to they have another agenda namly stuffing there pockets full of donated buck
i dont think all the money in the world will restore that balance if one looks at the big picture to restore this balance we need to iliminate all human interventing and that means getting rid of all humans
even then the dinasours are gone and not by human hands and evolution will continue

is my first reaction...but my gut tells me you pretty much hit the nail on the head....but....we have to at least try each and every one of us to do the best we can to help instead of hurt the way mankind has done for a very very very very....before Bush.... :lol:

...omg....I cannot believe I said that.....long time. I make myself sick thinking about the pile of crap we have turned this planet into over the last 200 + years...cry like a baby watching "Geronimo..the great american Legend" with Margy (82 yr old mom) and thank god every moment to be here in Baja....I like the feeling of going Back 50 yrs...instead of forward....fit really is a sad state of affairs....

vandenberg - 12-12-2006 at 02:15 PM

And during all this useless banter, a few more vaquitas bit the dust

Hey Now.....

kellychapman - 12-12-2006 at 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
I couldn't hazard a guess regarding who Alley might have in mind. Since I haven't offered any opinions (except as Sarcasm) lacking rational thoughtfulness, it surely couldn't be directed at me. Certainly nothing could be as extreme as calling for the extermination of the entire human race. It would be rational in today's society to promote the demise of certain segments of the world population, notably those mohammed-heads in dresses who seem determined to eliminate our side and are actively working at doing so.

I don't even advocate the extermination of the Vaquita, tasty or not. However, I don't really care, especially since it's beyond my control. Whatever occurs won't change my life (or anyone else's) in any respect. I suspect that those who are most vocal regarding the Vaquita won't give it too much thought once it's gone. There are plenty of other animals to occupy their time and concern. For those who claim a devout concern, I would suggest they move to the Rain Forest Somewhere so they can spend their waking hours campaigning on behalf of the numerous species that are going extinct every year. It should be enough to occupy their idle time.

[Edited on 12-12-2006 by MrBillM]

somehow this has turned into a mud-slinging contest and I want to wave a white flag........all of us care about another "total loss" of yet another animal...place...or thing...during our lifetime...l
The truth be told unless this precious mammel is put in confinement and reproduced it will not be long before they are all gone....along with the numerous that are going extint every year...and added to the list.....this was a post that exposed me to the Vaquita...I had never even of heard of one before.....I took hours looking for them and reading about them....researching and spending my idle time.learning about them... .which is what I have when my job is sitting with my 82 yr old mother with Melanoma)
So in closing...thank you very much for starting this thread....
I have enjoyed learning about this precious little dophin....It is a sad day in paradise to loose it.....along with all the other things on the list that we loose every day....
No rain forest for this ol' girl... :lol:

It took many years to be able to live in Baja..even if I have to sit with Margy for a few years.....just being here is all I can do at the moment and it sucks to have the "idle" time to see how screwed up it is....just eat, drink, and be merry...and have fun on this forum.... :bounce:

.....I lOVE LORETO...."It's all good"...it may be our own ass were kissing goodbye mananana......

capt. mike - 12-12-2006 at 03:21 PM

i'm still in tears over the loss of many of our most wonderful dinosaurs.
i especially liked old stegasaurus. cute little devils. i hated it when the one got sick on jurrasic park. :no:

Life in the RainForest

MrBillM - 12-12-2006 at 03:32 PM

Would probably not be that good, anyway. I've lived in a "Swamp" environment akin to that of a Rain Forest and it's damned uncomfortable. Sweating 24 hours a day and having all sorts of unknown bugs, leeches and other critters crawl and bite daily is not really Paradise.

I've purchased the University of Arizona Tide Calender for the Northern Gulf of California every year since 1978 and there was a recent issue that featured the Vaquita on the cover.

David K - 12-12-2006 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Would probably not be that good, anyway. I've lived in a "Swamp" environment akin to that of a Rain Forest and it's damned uncomfortable. Sweating 24 hours a day and having all sorts of unknown bugs, leeches and other critters crawl and bite daily is not really Paradise.

I've purchased the University of Arizona Tide Calender for the Northern Gulf of California every year since 1978 and there was a recent issue that featured the Vaquita on the cover.

Bill... could you post the address, price, or web site to order that calendar, please... May help me to know when I can get onto Shell Island, or not! :light:

Tide Calender

MrBillM - 12-12-2006 at 04:38 PM

The University of Arizona no longer publishes the calender, BUT a different group has taken over. It is the same High-Quality calender, however, they only publish the large one. No more of the small glove-compartment size. They are $15.00 each-Shipping included.

CEDO Intercultural
P.O. Box 44208
Tucson, Arizona 85733-4208

Phone: 520-320-5473
email: info@cedointercultural.org

OOPS. I spoke before going to look at their website. For 2007, they DO offer the Booklet size again. It is $7.00. You can order directly from their website: www.cedointercultural.org

Note Though that the ordering is NOT via a Secure webpage.

[Edited on 12-12-2006 by MrBillM]