Originally posted by lencho
Those guardsmen were forced to retreat."
This ain't some sand dune in Arabia, this is U.S. SOIL!
Somebody needs to go shove a boot up someone's A** !bajaguy - 1-4-2007 at 08:35 PM
Actually, I think shooting back would be a better idea
National Guard interview
John M - 1-4-2007 at 08:38 PM
this is a portion of a transcript of a public television interview from this past October relating to the position of our National Guard troops along
the border. The interview was mostly about efforts in Arizona. Jeffrey Kaye is the public television interviewer. What a crock!
JEFFREY KAYE: The National Guard personnel have been deployed to support the Border Patrol. The soldiers' duties include repairing and maintaining
Border Patrol trucks and operating a string of 25 fixed surveillance cameras along the international boundary.
On the border itself, Guard members are building higher and longer fences and constructing roads. Their round-the-clock observation posts are meant to
serve as a visible deterrent to those seeking to cross the border illegally.
KYLE LYONS, National Guard: When they look over the wall and see us, that should be our whole job right there, is just for us to be here.
JEFFREY KAYE: The M-16s the soldiers carry are for self-defense, in case troops encounter drug-runners or bandits.
In both the U.S. and Mexico, critics of Operation Jumpstart have complained the use of the National Guard to combat illegal immigration represents a
militarization of the border. Guard personnel say they have clear instructions on how to deal with any migrants they encounter.
SGT. JERRY HATFIELD, National Guard: If they come in and they walk over there, we just call up Border Patrol and say, "They're going north, right
beside our position."
JEFFREY KAYE: You can't walk over there and put the cuffs on a guy or give chase?
SGT. JERRY HATFIELD: Nope. No, no, no, no. Definitely...
NATIONAL GUARD MEMBER: Can't touch them.
NATIONAL GUARD MEMBER: We're not law enforcement here, sir.
JEFFREY KAYE: The deployment of the National Guard is just the latest in what's been a steady increase in security along America's southern border.
For 12 years, in addition to fence construction, the United States has added Border Patrol agents, beefed up aerial surveillance, installed
sophisticated cameras and sensors, and constructed more border fortifications, like this project meant to stop cars from crossing off-road.
It's also purchased portable watchtowers, called skyboxes, bristling with surveillance gear.
CESAR DIAZ, U.S. Border Patrol: They know we're here. And they still attempt and figure they're going to sneak past by, but they still get caught.Dave - 1-4-2007 at 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
Actually, I think shooting back would be a better idea
We have yet to discover whether ANY shots were fired.
What a royal flock Up!
Could They Have Shot Back ?
MrBillM - 1-5-2007 at 10:22 AM
It wouldn't surprise me to find that they were not even issued ammunition IF they had their rifles with them. Since the event at Kent State, it has
become common to deploy National Guard troops with unloaded weapons. Even if they had ammo, the Rules of Engagement may have been so restrictive that
they were unwilling to put their careers and freedom on the line, knowing they'd be second-guessed afterwards. The fact that two Border Patrolmen are
about to go to prison probably wasn't lost on them.bancoduo - 1-5-2007 at 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
Actually, I think shooting back would be a better idea
The national guard are not allowed to shoot. DHS
order.Cincodemayo - 1-5-2007 at 12:30 PM
Our country is going down the crapper on an escalated path. Simply pathetic.
Another WTF???
Dave - 1-5-2007 at 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Summanus
You think that our national guardsmen are in danger now? The future is grim.
They wear the uniform and the job ain't always supposed to be easy. If it was my dog could do it.
BTW, my dog would never, ever retreat. Would die right there.
How about that, NG pu**ies? abreojos - 1-6-2007 at 12:31 AM
Sounds like an act of war. What's Bush waiting for? Mexico has oil! Terrorist too...
[Edited on 1-6-2007 by abreojos]Summanus - 1-6-2007 at 06:12 AM
Dave, you misunderstood my meaning...or I didn't state myself clearly enough. Military are, by their existance, in harm's way...and any person who is
volunteering for that position knows the score...and accepts it.
Now here's where the BUT comes in....but.. our lame government is not allowing the national gaurdsmen along the border to defend themselves or to
initiate any confrontations. Much like our law enforcement is not allowed to ask a suspect on the street if he/she is an illegal alien. Whoever
voted in the people who are making these decisions has themselves to blame.
My dog, Gypsy, would have broken the leash and be chewing bones by now.bajaguy - 1-6-2007 at 08:22 AM
This whole incident interests me. As a retired Army Officer, I would like to know what the ROE (Rules of Engagement) the National Guard troops were
operating under. If they were placed in a surveillance or observation mission without the means of self-defense, that would be totally unacceptable.
Maybe they were being supported by US (state, local or federal) law enforcement....if so, that supporting law enforcement agency may have a seperate
set of ROE..............there was a definate breakdown somewhere.
US Military or law enforcement guarding our border should never have to retreat from a threat.
If during my active duty career, "gunmen" (note the operative word GUN, which assume to mean people holding guns) approached or threatened my troops,
there would have been some serious discussions with these "gunmen" supported by large amounts of 5.56mm and 7.62mm projectiles.
Sure would like to know what really happened and who was involved.
[Edited on 1-6-2007 by bajaguy]rts551 - 1-6-2007 at 09:53 AM
Gunmen approach Guard post on border
The Associated Press
Armed men who prompted National Guard soldiers to leave an observation post near the Mexican border came within 100 yards of the troops, but
apparently were unaware of the Guard members, authorities said Friday.
Four soldiers near Sasabe moved to a safer position late Wednesday as four or five armed men apparently from Mexico approached, Border Patrol
spokesman Mario Martinez said in Washington.
"There were no shots fired, no attacks, no overrunning of the National Guardsmen" or any contact with the group, Martinez said.
Border Patrol agents responded within minutes and followed tracks believed left by the group back to the Mexican border, Martinez said.
The National Guard troops are in Arizona and the three other border states to assist Border Patrol agents in a variety of roles, such as operating
surveillance cameras, repairing border fences, constructing vehicle barriers and reporting illegal entries.
Observation teams such as the one that saw the armed men near Sasabe report illegal border crossings to federal agents.
Maj. Paul Aguirre, spokesman for the Arizona National Guard, said those team members always carry arms for self-defense.
"The National Guard personnel's reaction was exactly as planned for and prepared," Aguirre said. So was the Border Patrol's response within a few
minutes, he added.
"There was no harm done to any of the personnel or the site," Aguirre said.
He said he was not aware of any similar incidents involving other Guard units.
Martinez also said the soldiers did not report seeing the men carrying anything that might be contraband.
U.S. Border Patrol officials are investigating the incident, which occurred between Nogales and Lukeville.
The National Guard troops are not allowed to apprehend illegal immigrants.
"We don't know if this was a matter of somebody coming up accidentally on the individuals, coming up intentionally on the individuals, or some sort of
a diversion," said Rob Daniels, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's Tucson sector.
The west desert corridor has been the busiest in the Tucson sector for marijuana seizures since last year.
With more Border Patrol agents and National Guard troops patrolling the Arizona section of the U.S.-Mexican border, it has become more difficult to
smuggle drugs and people across, and "that heightened frustration may have been connected to what took place last night," Daniels said.
