BajaNomad

Suspension Upgrades?

Halboo - 2-15-2007 at 10:02 AM

This is related to the "best rig for getting around off the pavement" thread.
We are having a custom pop up camper built for our 2005 Tundra Axcess 4WD.
https://www.allterraincampers.com
The truck is my daily driver but luckily I do not commute.
The camper weighs in around 700+lbs. add the portabote, outboard, full coolers, tackle, grub, two people and their junk,
the dogs..........
What suspension upgrades should I be doing?
We will be mostly driving on lots of Baja's "bad roads" but not doing any real heavy duty "off roading".
I'd like the truck to maintain it's street friendly aspect but still be able to confidently head off down the back roads.

tripledigitken - 2-15-2007 at 10:52 AM

Check these out. http/supersprings.com

I am installing them on a Nissan Xterra. The vehicle rides just find with minimal loads, both on and off road. With a heavy load offroad however, it will bottom out. :o

These springs address that condition. I will be give a report mid March after a trip south with these installed.

Ken

Axel - 2-15-2007 at 11:15 AM

I would look into air bags. A few of my buddies have them and the work great. Fill em up when you need them. Most muffler shops that install trailer hitches also install air bags.

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 11:18 AM

Those "supersprings" look like they would work ok, but I cannot find any prices. (???)

Another option, tho similar, is to go to a local "spring shop"/"suspension shop" and have them install "add-a-leafs", which might be cheaper and yet they work very well, and stand up to the constant pounding of washboard roads.

I have some under my F-250 with a 1000 lb steel camper and I have been really satisfied with them. I leave my camper on my vehicle all the time, and it rides like a dream. I have "add-a-leafs" both fore and aft. These are NOT the bolt-on kind, but rather new additional leafs added to the existing spring packs. Avoid the bolt-on kinds as they do not stand up to the pounding of dirt roads, in my experience.

Also add some really good gas shocks, unless your rig already has them----(Bilstein, or comprable).

Axle-----

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 11:20 AM

-----just my experience------I went thru 2 sets of "air-bags" very quickly before going to the "add-a-leafs". The "air bags" just did not stand up to the pounding of the Baja dirt Roads. They are fine for pavement, but not rough country, or at least that is what my experience was.

tripledigitken - 2-15-2007 at 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Those "supersprings" look like they would work ok, but I cannot find any prices. (???)

Another option, tho similar, is to go to a local "spring shop"/"suspension shop" and have them install "add-a-leafs", which might be cheaper and yet they work very well, and stand up to the constant pounding of washboard roads.

I have some under my F-250 with a 1000 lb steel camper and I have been really satisfied with them. I leave my camper on my vehicle all the time, and it rides like a dream. I have "add-a-leafs" both fore and aft. These are NOT the bolt-on kind, but rather new additional leafs added to the existing spring packs. Avoid the bolt-on kinds as they do not stand up to the pounding of dirt roads, in my experience.

Also add some really good gas shocks, unless your rig already has them----(Bilstein, or comprable).


Barry,

A pair for my Xterra are $245. I too have been happy with Bilsteins, on both the Xterra and my F250 4X4.

Axel - 2-15-2007 at 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
-----just my experience------I went thru 2 sets of "air-bags" very quickly before going to the "add-a-leafs". The "air bags" just did not stand up to the pounding of the Baja dirt Roads. They are fine for pavement, but not rough country, or at least that is what my experience was.



Barry, Do you recall the brand? One of my buddies has had them on for quite awhile with alot of use. The other has had them for awhile with moderate use. Both with rough roads though.

Axel-------

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 01:15 PM

----You know, I don't recall the brand. I had a pair on the used 1969 F-100 truck when I got it (1971)----they went bad (would not hold air) after 1 trip to Baja, so I thought that maybe they were just old, so bought replacements. After 2 trips down the San Felipe to Gonzaga road they went bad too. Then I went to bolt-on helper springs (with grade 8 bolts)-------busted both of them (the leafs broke at the clamp) on the next rugged Baja Trip. Next I went to the add-a-leafs and never had any more problems. This was all about 20 years ago when I had those problems. My son still owns the old F-100 (1969) and has never had any more problems (it still runs great) and he drives it rough off-road.

Then I bought a used (1994) F-250 (which I still have) and after one Mexico trip found that it bottomed out. I then installed the add-a-leafs (fore and aft) and the Bilstein's all around, and it has been great ever since.

Maybe the new air-bags are more rugged now, tho friends of mine have also reported problems with them. Again, they are wonderful on the highway, but just do not seem to hold up to abuse. Add-a-leafs (beefed up spring packs) have so far been fool-proof for me, so of course I am bullish on them.

bajabass - 2-15-2007 at 02:48 PM

I own a suspension and alignment shop. I have found airbags or air shocks are a crutch at best for on road, a joke off road. find a good spring shop and they will custom build a spring pack or add a leaf or two. shock wise, either Bilstein or KYB.

Yep-----

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 02:58 PM

----I have KYB's on my Isuzu Trooper and they are outstanding, too, I believe. Both brands of shocks are worth every penny, and then some.

Neal Johns - 2-15-2007 at 03:29 PM

I have a Tacoma with an 850 lb (dry) camper on it and use it quite a bit off-road.

Get three leaves added to the spring pack in the rear by a spring shop. Add-a-leave type helpers will leave you rocking and rolling (literally) with the higher center of gravity and weight of the camper. As mentioned above, get better shocks in the rear which will help this. The TRD Bilsteins that came stock on mine were too soft for the camper load. Rancho and others make adjustable shocks that will help.

Get a two inch lift (adjustable) on the front with stronger springs (higher spring rate). Some of the camper weight will transfer to the front. Downey Off-Road and several others sell them.

You did not say if you will leave it on all the time??? I do.

Neal and Marian Johns -His and Her Tacomas

Pole Line Road 2004 024 Quick e-mail view.jpg - 32kB

dean miller - 2-15-2007 at 03:45 PM

I have used Air bags and add a leaf both were total absolute failures! Never again!

Broke a spring on my trailer in Baja. Took it to a Mexican Taller in Baja. He replaced the springs on both sides with 6 leaf springs for a total of $50.00 US. That was 8-10 years ago.

SDM

OK Neal, now I am confused---------

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 03:49 PM

:lol:

When you say "add-a-leafs" will leave you "rocking and rolling", but then say they are "helper" springs, I am confused. My "add-a-leafs" are leafs incorporated into the spring pack-----in other words the spring shop rebuilt my stock springs adding leafs to that pack. They called the leafs they added "add-a-leaf" springs. I ended up with 6 leafs per rear spring pack, 3 leafs per front spring packs, with no overload springs. They work great even in the rocks------very little rocking and rolling----but I do have anti-sway bars fore and aft, in addition to the big motorhome type Bilstein shocks. My camper is very close to yours in weight, but only 44 inches tall. The new spring packs raised the backend about 2 inches from what they were stock, and the front end about 1 inch. Many Baja back roads on this set-up, but nothing quite as bad as what your pic shows. :o

Am I mis-interpreting something here?

Dean-----

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 03:53 PM

----I think the confusion is in what each of us is calling "add-a-leaf" springs. What you ended up with on your trailer is exactly what I ended up with when the shop rebuilt my spring packs, but they called the leafs that they incorporated into the springs packs, "add-a-leaf" springs.

Perhaps you are referring to the bolt-on leafs, which several of us think are "junk"?

Neal Johns - 2-15-2007 at 03:55 PM

There is some confusion as to "Add-a-Leaf".
I am/was referring to the original definition of a single leaf added to the pack.

Neal-----

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 03:59 PM

In my case, the spring shop decided that I only needed 1 extra leaf per spring pack, both front and rear. That did the job.

My stock spring packs: rear was 5 leafs, front 2 leafs-------when they finished I had 6 leafs per rear spring pack, and 3 leafs per front spring pack.

By the way---------

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 04:03 PM

----the leafs that they added to my spring-packs were branded "Rancho Suspension".

Skipjack Joe - 2-15-2007 at 05:08 PM

I'm going to be going through this sort of thing in the following two months and have a couple of questions.

1. Could you recommend a shop in the san diego area that would know how many springs to add and the quality needed for baja offroads.

2. I noticed that my 4Wheel camper has most of it's appliances on one side of the truck. And that includes the water tank. I was wondering if the suspension on one side of the truck needs to be beefed up more than the other. I say this because my old camper had a lean to the left due to the same poor weight distribution.

SkipJack-----

Barry A. - 2-15-2007 at 05:24 PM

I had the same problem as you do in that my camper leaned to the right. The Spring/Suspension shop compensated when they built the spring packs to accomodate and correct this problem. This is assuming that the camper will be on the truck permanently.

Another thing that I forgot to mention on my rear springs is that the spring shop not only added an extra leaf, but they re-arched both the rear springs, and this is how they compensated for the "lean", plus giving me slightly more "lift".

Not familiar with the San Diego market-------I am in far north CA.

Halboo - 2-15-2007 at 06:17 PM

I guess I'm not the only one interested in this subject.
The camper will be on the truck 95% of the time.
I'm no mechanic and am also interested in finding an honest shop in South Orange County or North County SD that knows the ins and outs of this stuff.

elgatoloco - 2-15-2007 at 07:10 PM

Frame & Axle Service of El Cajon is where we took our rig.

Frame & Axle Service of El Cajon
210 Cypress Ln
El Cajon, CA 92020

(619) 444-9439

Axel - 2-15-2007 at 09:08 PM

I agree with Don Jorge, Deaver has always done me right. There is National spring in San Diego but I have never delt with them. I'm sure someone here has.

Tomas Tierra - 2-15-2007 at 10:06 PM

The "add a leafs" that I have used on previous trucks have been shorter than the other leafs and on the bottom of the stack..Anybody else have that experience??

Also, broke two Downey add a leafs before going to full size "additional" leafs from RRRRRRRancho..stiff as a brick without the camper on though..

Tundra....

Tomas Tierra - 2-15-2007 at 10:23 PM

Good thread Halboo, I am preparing to do almost the same thing as You...Get my '02 Tundra ready for Baja with a pop up camper..

Anybody done anything with the front end of one of these trucks?? I am not familiar with the coil spring set up at all..I like Neal's advise, but he has a Tacoma..Same front end set up as Tundra???not sure

I was going to go with gas shocks and airbags, but think I will scratch the airbags and stack the springs. Glad I found out the easy way about the airbags..

Any advise/comments welcome..(even if you want bag on Toyota:lol::lol::lol:)

Edit to add photo...

[Edited on 2-16-2007 by Tomas Tierra]

DSCN1555.JPG - 44kB

Halboo - 2-15-2007 at 11:17 PM

Anyone raggin on the Toy's probably never had one.
My '86 22R 2WD 4 cyl. took me from the PNW to Rio Nexpa and everywhere in between for 20 years and now belongs to the neighbors kid who will get another 20 years out of it if he treats it right.
Oh what a feeling ;)

dean miller - 2-15-2007 at 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
...Perhaps you are referring to the bolt-on leafs, which several of us think are "junk"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barry you are correct!

They were bolt on items-I installed them-matter of fact they are still on the older Toyota PU which I use around town.

And they were are and will always be useless! Total Junk!

SDM

Yes sir halboo

Tomas Tierra - 2-15-2007 at 11:30 PM

My first.....

1011801270_004.JPG - 34kB

bajabass - 2-16-2007 at 10:34 AM

For the Toyotas, the Donahoe Adjustable Coil-Over front shocks and coils work perfect. I know the folks at Deavers well. They are THE answer in "Orangeless" county. I have no camper on my 2005 Tundra Access Cab 4WD. The Donahoes allowed me to level the truck and use LT285/75/16 Bridgestone Dueller A/T Revo tires. With no rear lift the TRD stock bilsteins work great and the truck drives like a Lexus with a bed behind it. If you lift the rear check the shocks for correct extended and compressed length. If your shocks are to short you will top out. KYB only makes O.E. length shocks for the Tundras. Use a correct length Bilstein. I am the owner of Accurate Alignment in Orange. Look me up for any help I can provide. This is not an advertisement.I am in the yellow pages.

Russ - 2-16-2007 at 10:47 AM

I cheeped out and had the local "kinda mechanic" put an extra leaf in the rear of my '02 Exploder and it made a huge difference in handling on the washboard and hwy. When I got another Exploder an '04 I did the same and it helped some too. I'm not saying this is the way to go. It just worked well for me. My '96 Power Stroke has air bags and they still work after eleven years.

Upgrading a '07 Toy Taco

Lee - 2-16-2007 at 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabass
For the Toyotas, the Donahoe Adjustable Coil-Over front shocks and coils work perfect. I know the folks at Deavers well. They are THE answer in "Orangeless" county. I have no camper on my 2005 Tundra Access Cab 4WD. The Donahoes allowed me to level the truck and use LT285/75/16 Bridgestone Dueller A/T Revo tires. With no rear lift the TRD stock bilsteins work great and the truck drives like a Lexus with a bed behind it. If you lift the rear check the shocks for correct extended and compressed length. If your shocks are to short you will top out. KYB only makes O.E. length shocks for the Tundras. Use a correct length Bilstein. I am the owner of Accurate Alignment in Orange. Look me up for any help I can provide. This is not an advertisement.I am in the yellow pages.


PJC recommended Dohohoe's as well.

http://www.donahoeracing.com/product_results.php?make=Toyota...

Any thoughts on after market products for a stock '07 Taco? Tires? Exhaust? Suspension?

I'm putting a lighter weight shell on top (a longbed) for camping and hauling construction stuff otherwise. Down here, I drive long distances of heavy duty washboard roads.

:cool:

Hook - 2-16-2007 at 11:04 AM

I think the problem with air bags is not using the correct level of inflation for the task at hand. For off-road use, you dont want them too highly or lowly inflated. Both can cause problems on washboard with lots of weight (like a camper) in the back. Especially in 90+ degrees. I used them on an RV I had and they worked fine offroad at about 75% of air capacity.

At the time, the Firestones were much better than the Air Lift brand. Dotn know whats out there now.

Hook - 2-16-2007 at 11:06 AM

Just curious but what constitutes a long bed Taco. How long is long in a Taco? Certainly not 8 feet?

We've got a Ford F-350 4x4 with a 4 inch suspension lift...

Mexray - 2-16-2007 at 09:18 PM

...We hung a 3K lbs Lance camper on it, and the 'stock' Ford overload leaves came into play, effectively shortening the length of the rear spring pack, and the ride was 'bouncy' to say the least! The truck wasn't 'level', front to back, and we also had couple inches of 'lean' to one side...

I put Firestone air bags on it, along with adjustable Rancho shocks. Ride improved greatly, and with air pressure difference could get rid of the lean...

We can't get too serious, off road with that big camper back there, but we do get into some 'bumpy stuff' from time to time...well, I threw something a stick into one of the air bags on our first trip and blew out that sucker! Back down onto the stock overloads, and bounced around till I could find another air bag!

When we got home, I bought a set of those 'SuperSprings' noted above. They come with shackles with several holes for adjusting the mounting height, which I utilized to take the old 'lean' out of the loaded truck. I was also able to make the ride height level. These added leaves mount right on top of (and compress) the overload springs - right on top of the complete spring pack.

I haven't been able to use the truck off road yet with the SuperSprings...so don't know if they will hold up or not...it seems OK for now, but the whole setup appears to be a 'bandaid'...if they hold up, all well and good, but if now, it's back to the drawing board - only this time it will be off to the spring shop and get a couple leaves built into the stock spring pack - probably the best overall way to go, especially if one was going to keep the camper installed most of the time!

I have to say here, that if I had it to do over again, I would go directly to the spring shop and get the stock springs reworked...oh well, got to help keep those aftermarket guys in business...:O

Hook

Tomas Tierra - 2-16-2007 at 09:26 PM

6 feet

TMW - 2-17-2007 at 09:37 AM

["Just curious but what constitutes a long bed Taco. How long is long in a Taco? Certainly not 8 feet?']

In the Tundra the bed size is 78.7 inches (6ft 6.7inches) or 97.2 inches (8ft 1.2inches) except for the crewmax which only comes with a 66.7 inch (5ft 6.7inch) bed.

The Tacoma comes with either a 60.3 in or 73.5 inch bed.

elgatoloco - 2-17-2007 at 12:37 PM

http://www.hellwigproducts.com/

Not all bolt ons are created equal. These guys make a great product with a no hassle warranty.

I have used them on other vehicles and had success.

Crazy Cat------

Barry A. - 2-17-2007 at 12:41 PM

----one of the "bolt-on" springs that failed on my vehicle long ago was a HELWIG. But it did not look like the one in the picture in that "link". So maybe that one is ok???

Sounding like a die-hard here: To be sure, tho, I would have the spring packs rebuilt, staying away from the "gimmick" springs.

elgatoloco - 2-17-2007 at 01:06 PM

Maybe you abused the product? :biggrin:

Hellwig has been a pioneer in the business and they have created a line of affordable products that provide solutions for many suspension issues. The first thing I did when I bought my F-250 in 1999 was replace the factory anti-sway bar with a Hellwig heavy duty one. I also mounted a set of the LP 25 progressive helper springs on my rig because I have a Tommy Gate mounted on it and it helped with the ride when I mounted my Callen camper shell. If I sound like some low life sales guy, I am guilty as charged, I am actually a WD for Hellwig, since 1984 in fact. I have used the product and had success. I have had instances where leaves have broken over the years, far fewer in the last decade or so, when that happens they replace the part no questions no hassles. Having said all that when someone says there are going to be putting a camper on there truck, either full time or part time (like me) and they can afford it, do what I did and take it to a spring shop and have it set up, like I did, where it rides level empty and it rides level when the camper is on and loaded for bear or Baja. In the early days I would often talk to the guys at Hellwig about my travels to Baja. One year they went down and got hooked. They now are regular visitors and have developed a line of toy hauler products partly as a result of hauling their stuff down there.

Lots of different ways to go.

C-Cat------

Barry A. - 2-17-2007 at 01:18 PM

-----right you are-----lots of ways to "skin a cat" :lol:

elgatoloco - 2-17-2007 at 01:23 PM

HEY! I resemble that remark! :biggrin:

bajabass - 2-19-2007 at 02:35 PM

The Helwig products are great quality stuff, but the add-ons are just not for ABUSIVE off-roading. i.e. Baja. Use custom spring packs designed for your unit.Take the truck or van to the shop fully loaded, including all liquid tanks full! Better a little stiff, than to soft-low.The combination of extra leaves and re-arching is best left to experts.Their sway bars, or more correctly anti-sway bars are good stuff as well. Just remember that full on race suspension gets eaten up and spit out like used gum as well. Nothing tests suspension like Baja!!!

Teflon wafers

Phil C - 2-19-2007 at 05:51 PM

I'm thinkin of adding these on my new spring packs, an old solid front axle suburban. Has anyone used these? My spring shop has recomended them to soften the washboard. They are installed at the ends and the center between each leaf.

Axel - 2-19-2007 at 06:35 PM

Phil,
They will allow each springs to move without binding. As the spring collapses or extends the front and rear of each sping will slid against the other with less resistance. In small movement they might not be as efficient but when the spring articulates greater they will really come into effect.

Neal Johns - 2-19-2007 at 11:05 PM

Someone asked about what to do for the front of a Tacoma/Tundra:

The suspension is similar in design and have similar lift kits available for 2-3 inches lift.
There are several lift types on the market:
1. A single, non-adjustable spacer is added to the spring mount and the stock spring is used. Cheap.
2. Upper and lower spacers are added to an adjustable spring mount and a stiffer (25-30%) spring is used. Average $
3. Like 2. plus a replacement upper arm containing a better ball joint. Excellent, bring $$$

In my opinion, a stiffer front coil spring is needed to prevent excessive nose dive under hard, sudden, braking. Since this is an Independent Front Suspension, the differential will dive along with the nose. This is not good. :light: