BajaNomad - Paying to camp at Playa La Gringa?? Don't!

Paying to camp at Playa La Gringa?? Don't!

BajaDave - 2-17-2007 at 12:33 AM

Many of us have enjoyed camping at La Gringa on the water's edge for many years. Playa La Gringa is in the ZOFEMAT, defined as the area 20 meters inland from the ordinary high water mark (OHWM) of the ocean/sea, and therefore is owned by no one man and is for the benefit and use of the people. Access to this land must not be denied.

Occasionally, someone will try to collect a fee for camping there, and lately signs and fences have been erected to see to it that you don't mistake this as a place where you can camp or enjoy the beach for free anymore. While I understand that a concession can be granted to allow someone to use the beach for money making purposes, i.e. construction and rental of bungalows, etc., it does not allow anyone to charge admission to BE on the beach or use it for recreation, or to deny access to that beach without payment.

My uncle and his Mexican family have been going there for years to camp, fish, swim and just relax for weeks at a time. It is one of their favorite places in all of Baja to camp. This year, they were approached and asked to pay by an individual who claimed to own the property. Below is an excerpt of a letter he sent to me describing the chain of events set in motion as they refused to pay him, knowing full well the beach belongs to all the people of Mexico.

*********
The same type of speculation is obvious at the B'LA. Lots of fences at La Gringa. I think you got the idea from the fotos. The signs on the near shore fences are conveniently placed to indicate that the beach is private property and the 'collector' has collected so many $5 bills over the last year that I think he actually believes his own BS. He was told by Dolores (I stayed back in all the conversations) that there was no way he was getting anything from us as we knew the truth about the property. About the third day he was tired of warning Dolores and went for the police. Fortunately right after he left for town the Army came through and Dolores waved them to stop and she talked to the 'commander' who verified all we believed about the federal zone and said to send the 'collector' and any other would be officials to the military base to get 'set straight' and said they would also speak to the the Delegation of B'LA in town. So Dolores was firm when the police showed up. There were two of them in uniform with their patrol car and the 'collector'. They acted a bit more reticent than the 'collector' but said that we were on private property. I assumed this was a weak defense for their paisano the 'collector' and or ignorance of the federal zone which would be harder to believe. Dolores started right in on them with a speech that would have put a smile on Barack Obama, the high point of which was her finger pointed to the sky and saying "the constitution is the supreme law of the land", (a direct quote from her US citizenship study book). They wanted her to go with them to the military base but she said she didn't think the military needed any help. About two hours later the 'collector' came back alone and said he was submitting to higher authority and by the way 'they' send their salutations to Dona Dolores. I still can't believe he was faithful to the second part of the msg! Then in a state of true corruption asked Dolores not to interfere with his negocios (enganando) while we were there! He remained contemptable to the last, calling me the Gringo that thinks he owns the beach and that the beach is Mexican and Gringos need to pay, blah blah blah. It is sad to see how twisted reasoning can become because of greed and guilt. At least one camper packed up after three days or so saying he had had enough of the BS. The night before we left, I reversed the signs on the fences. I plan to post to a forum giving people a heads up that are headed for La Gringa.
***************

AmoPescar - 2-17-2007 at 12:43 AM

THANKS FOR THR GOOD INFO DAVE!!!

Now I wonder how many will still keep paying??? It will probably be like the traffic shakedowns...they'll just pay to save the trouble!!

Amo :yes:

4baja - 2-17-2007 at 07:24 AM

i too was tired of paying up and down the coast when it is obvios that you are camping on fed land so i looked into it a little more and this is what i learned. when it comes down to it they cannot charge you for camping on fed land(the beach) BUT they can charge you for going through there property to get to that beach. this last jan. i told the people that charge at punta diablo that i wanted to see proof that they owned the land there before i pay any tom dick and harry that deside that they need beer money and charge me camping fees. they brought me the documentation of ownership and now i gladly pay the right persons. la gringa has a easement that goes through the property to get to the other propertys to the north so they cant charge to use the road but can charge if you camp above the mean high tide line near the beach above fed playa. :coolup:

PabloS - 2-17-2007 at 08:23 AM

Anyone know where I can get some good counterfeit Lincoln's? I need a La Gringa fix. :lol:

DENNIS - 2-17-2007 at 08:35 AM

Pablo .....
Your printer is full of them.

La Gringa payment

cabokid - 2-17-2007 at 08:35 AM

30 years of camping there myself I usually pay when asked if I feel the fee is reasonable . I think it is worth it if they the keep the place clean. Alot of times these locals are a wealth of information and ack as a watchdog when you are gone( if you pay ) I know they don't legally have a right but is it really worth it for a few bucks. Besides the most problems I have in Baja is with the americans that buy or lease all the best beaches then put up there signs with all the rules for "there beach " No Motorcycle -Fireworks- Fires -ect. The worst is in Cabo where the Americans just buy the whole dam coastline and then close of all roads to the beaches and block off the washes with bolders . So where is the Mexican law for there right to beach access. The old rule still applies down there " the man with the most gold makes the rules" Thats just the way it is , won't change never will, so why get all upset and just go with it and drink more Pacifico and relax.

La gringa

BAJACAT - 2-17-2007 at 08:49 AM

Was there two years ago,pay the guy stay for two days,when I left I even give the guy that lives in the trailer my left over food,?I think I will go back to Bola and ask for my food back(stupid me) :?:

PS. Go Bajanomadpower....si se puede.

bahiamia - 2-17-2007 at 10:19 AM

Thought I would check with the Island Visitor's office here in town to inquire about this matter. The fellow there said that La Gringa is "Propiedad Privada", so the owner would then be able to charge when that is the case. I'll try to find out more info, but this is the initial response that I got.

[Edited on 2-17-2007 by bahiamia]

djh - 2-17-2007 at 10:31 AM

Please remind me NEVER to mess with Dolores !!!! (unless I need a strong negotiator ~ on MY side :tumble:

)

djh

BajaDave - 2-17-2007 at 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bahiamia
Thought I would check with the Island Visitor's office here in town to inquire about this matter. The fellow there said that La Gringa is "Propiedad Privada", so the owner would then be able to charge when that is the case. I'll try to find out more info, but this is the initial response that I got.

[Edited on 2-17-2007 by bahiamia]

There's no such thing as a privately owned beach in Mexico. That's the point of this post. ZOFEMAT (Federal Zone) = OHWM to 20 meters inland. Method of measurement where slopes are involved seems to be the only questionable part of the equation, as different gov't agents will give different answers, and the law is a bit ambiguous on the matter.

Note also that historical easements are in most respects as good as lawfully recorded ones in Mexico. Much like here in the U.S..

Also, I understand that any/every owner of land adjacent to ZOFEMAT must provide a point of access to the zone abutting his land to the public. Note that it needn't be marked, but if a landowner is asked where/how one may reach the zone, it's my understanding that he cannot deny/block access. Now I don't know the specifics enough to say whether this allows him to charge for that access, but my guess is the courts would deem this as hindering or even blocking access to some, which would be illegal.

Part of the point of this post was to demonstrate the ingnorance and even the complicity among even law enforcement agents and others in power, so don't take the word of someone at the Islands Visitor's office as gospel, as they are in fact dead wrong.

I think the "it's only 5 dollars" argument is, as Amo eludes to, synonomous with paying the mordida to the officer for an infraction. Sure, it may be handy for you at the time, but it just makes it harder/worse for everyone else who follows you. Note also that 5 dollars times 21 days is over 100 bucks, no small change for lots of us with just enough money for the gas and food to take our families on a nice camping trip to the beach.

Spread the word.

bancoduo - 2-17-2007 at 03:45 PM

Dave is absolutely right. It is the law;but just try too tell that to the MONKEY at the gate.

La Gringa fees---------

Barry A. - 2-17-2007 at 05:18 PM

I have camped at La Gringa, or close by to the west, at least 35 times over the past 30 years, but I only was asked to "pay" about 3 times, and then it was $5 a night per vehicle. But I admit it has been about 8 years since I camped there. The guy lived pretty close by and he kept the beach clean and provided trash cans at the usual campsites. We "struck a deal" with him to pay $5 a night for the "site", rather than per vehicle as often we had 5 plus vehicles, all 4x4's able to go anywhere on the beach we wanted to. He also provided us with rudimentary security when we were out at sea fishing, which was almost every day. To us we were paying for a "service", and did not mind it at all. We NEVER had any problems with petty theft, or anything else bad, for that matter, and we never locked our vehicles.

Clear back in the late 50's and 60's I can remember paying $5 a night to camp on the beach at San Felipe, just south of town (within walking distance of down town). They provided trash pickup, brackish water showers, rudimentary pit toilets, and security (or so we believed). We gladly paid the price for a prime spot on the water front.

In over $50 years I have NEVER paid any Mordida that I was aware of, and never will.

Bob H - 2-17-2007 at 05:33 PM

Baja, it seems, just ain't what it used to be, huh?

bahiamia - 2-17-2007 at 05:40 PM

I went out to La Gringa a couple of weeks back to ask about camping fees, to takes pictures and such. What they said is along the lines of what you mentioned, Barry A. That $5 camping fee also includes trash pickup and someone keeping an eye on things.

I am wondering now what specifically differentiates La Gringa from all the other camp spots that charge for camping, not only along the shores here, such as Daggett's, Archelon, La Ventana, etc... but also North along the coast to San Felipe, South at Concepcion, Requeson and points beyond... is it being advised that people not pay at those places either?

[Edited on 2-18-2007 by bahiamia]

Bob H

Baja Bernie - 2-17-2007 at 05:48 PM

Quite an understatment!

The charging for beach game has been going on as long as I have been going to Baja.........The guys doing the charging know it against Mexican law to make those charges on the Federal zone.............They just do it because it is so easy so separate the gringo from his money............What the hey! it is only money.

camping La Gringa

mckayshrimp - 2-17-2007 at 09:25 PM

I have been camping La Gringa for years and it is one of the most beautiful and underused beaches on the Baja that I have seen. There has been someone there trying to collect and they were all scamming the unwary. But the new 'collector' is a real in your face piece of work and what he is doing is pure deception and THERE IS NO SERVICE PROVIDED if you do pay. He will have a different speech for whatever resistance he meets. The one that got a laugh from me was "well Mexicans can camp here free but not Gringos" as if there are separate laws in Mexico. Not all Mexico or Mexicans are corrupt. Those not resisting are part of the problem. Of course if it comes down to your life or your money vote Libertarian.

Alan - 2-17-2007 at 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bahiamia
I went out to La Gringa a couple of weeks back to ask about camping fees, to takes pictures and such. What they said is along the lines of what you mentioned, Barry A. That $5 camping fee also includes trash pickup and someone keeping an eye on things.

I am wondering now what specifically differentiates La Gringa from all the other camp spots that charge for camping, not only along the shores here, such as Daggett's, Archelon, La Ventana, etc... but also North along the coast to San Felipe, South at Concepcion, Requeson and points beyond... is it being advised that people not pay at those places either?

[Edited on 2-18-2007 by bahiamia]

I believe the federal zone is only about 70 feet from the high water mark so at Daggets and Archelon you are camping on their private property.

Bajagypsy - 2-18-2007 at 10:01 AM

Just my opinioin, but here in Saskatchean, there is no place to camp for $5., that has the view of the ocean, is warm and has pacifico's. I would gladly pay that amount. A night camping here is around $20.00 in an overfull campground, and your lucky if you have a few trees. You can here your neighbours fart, and fight. I would take the $5 camping on the ocean over what we have offered here.

bahiamia - 2-18-2007 at 01:09 PM

Now as it comes to mind, when we used to camp at Playa Coyote, and Playa Burro down in Bahia Concepcion, (and pay), I remember people mentioning that they could charge there because they had a "Concesion":

"Instrumentos jurídicos que autorizan la legal ocupación de la Zona Federal Marítimo Terrestre:

CONCESIÓN:
Es el título que otorga SEMARNAT para el uso, aprovechamiento o explotación de la Zofemat, para uso exclusivo y por un tiempo preciso. (Puede ser prorrogable)."

Perhaps in La Gringa have the same?

[Edited on 2-18-2007 by bahiamia]

In theory, maybe

Dave - 2-18-2007 at 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaDave
defined as the area 20 meters inland from the ordinary high water mark (OHWM) of the ocean/sea, and therefore is owned by no one man and is for the benefit and use of the people. Access to this land must not be denied.

The beaches are actually owned by the government and controlled by its military. People may think they have access rights but the government/military can select or restrict access at any time, anywhere.

And access doesn't mean camping or vehicles. It simply means walking access.

vacaenbaja - 2-18-2007 at 01:27 PM

Mike Humfreville must be rolling in his grave. How he loved that area. God bless him.

BajaDave - 2-18-2007 at 04:54 PM

The type of access that must be allowed is not defined anywhere, but if it's a beach that is historically used for vehicular camping, and someone has a concession to put up beachside palapas and charge for their use, this does not give them the right to deny access to vehicles. Neither does is allow someone to drive up onto a beach where a hotel has the concession to operate or build improvements in the zone, where vehicles are not otherwise allowed. What you MAY do on the beach, i.e. sleep, eat, swim, sunbathe, is not governed, as far as I can determine. To say you cannot camp or drive on a beach where someone has a concession is not accurate.

The exclusive use granted to a concession holder, is for the specific thing for which he is granted the concession, or in most cases, the concession itself, for example I might acquire the concession for the beach abutting my land, to ensure that no one else aquires the concession and puts up palapas, a restaurant, bar, a wharf, etc.. This means if I hold the concession on beach X, Joe Smith cannot get a concession for beach x as well. This is the "exclusivity" that is referred to. It does not mean that you have the right to exclude anyone from that beach. I would still not be able to keep people from coming onto the beach and using it for personal use and not for finacial gain. It is very important to note that a concession holder can have his concession revoked for denying access to the beach. This is from the "Introduction to the ZOFEMAT" by SEMARNAT:

"Las concesiones pueden ser revocadas entre otras por las siguientes razones: Por subconcesionar, arrendar o gravar la concesión; por realizar actividades no autorizadas por el Título de Concesión; falta de pago de derechos, impedir el acceso a las playas, etc..."

The full text of it is at: http://www.semarnat.gob.mx/estados/quintanaroo/Pages/concesi...

[Edited on 2-18-2007 by BajaDave]

La Gringa beach, Bahia de Los Angeles

mckayshrimp - 2-19-2007 at 04:10 PM

The 'collector' does not have a concession for La Gringa and neither did the Mexican fishermen that lived there. Collecting a fee at La Gringa is pure scam.

motoged - 2-20-2007 at 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajagypsy
Just my opinioin, but here in Saskatchean, there is no place to camp for $5., that has the view of the ocean, is warm and has pacifico's. I would gladly pay that amount. A night camping here is around $20.00 in an overfull campground, and your lucky if you have a few trees. You can here your neighbours fart, and fight. I would take the $5 camping on the ocean over what we have offered here.

Gypsy,
Aw...c'mon....admit it....the -30 is gettin' to ya :lol:

$5 in Saskabush gets you a beer and a plate of perogies at yer cousin's social....

Ged ....... (born in Theodore, so I know

)

wsdunc - 2-20-2007 at 10:29 AM

Last week after driving all day I was happy to pay $5 to the "caretaker" to camp at La Gringa, he indeed came around the next day and was emptying the trash cans, and stopped to ask us if we had any trash. The whole area was completely clean, which is certainly different than some other places I've been to. If its this clean because he takes care of it I'm not too worried about the $5, at least for short term stays.

wsdune------WELL SAID!!!!

Barry A. - 2-20-2007 at 11:16 AM

marla - 2-20-2007 at 12:51 PM

It doesn't sound like he was concerned about paying $5, he was concerned about being lied to and ripped off. If the guy came and said, hey, for five bucks a day I'll empty your trash, keep your campsite clean and safe on the federal zone, that would be different story.

50 years ....no mordida?

pacificobob - 2-22-2007 at 10:10 AM

must have been a rather tame 50 years!

David K - 2-22-2007 at 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vacaenbaja
Mike Humfreville must be rolling in his grave. How he loved that area. God bless him.

Mike loved the Mexican people and I would bet his responce is if one of them needs a job of cleaning up the (much better off financially) Americans' trash for $5 bucks, then what is the problem?

Would you rather the government take over the beach, like they did at Puerto Escondido... How much are they charging you to use that shoreline (in a Federal Zone)?

I used to camp on Puerto Escondido's beach ('73-'76)... that is all gone now. I wish some Mexican private person was there letting me camp for $5, illegal or not it's a far cry better than the government foul up.

I am glad that La Gringa is still open for camping, like when I first camped out there in '84... $5 after driving 400 miles is a problem for some of you??? Come on, it's not even your country.

Pacific Bob-----

Barry A. - 2-22-2007 at 02:56 PM

Yes, it is true-------NO MORDIDA payed in over 50 years of travel in Baja-------

------but they did throw me in jail once, but that is another story, and I deserved it.

It may have been "tame" by your standards, but we sure had a great time, all those years. I do watch my driving while in Mexico, and I probably have been really lucky. But having said that, even if stopped (which I have been several times) I would NEVER pay mordida------it is just against my principals. :yes:

La Gringa trash

mckayshrimp - 2-25-2007 at 12:04 AM

There are no trash cans within 7 miles of La Gringa. But you can find trash under every bush. The 'collector' cleans up, but not the trash!

Phil S - 2-25-2007 at 05:40 AM

David K. The campsite you must be talking about at Puerto Escondido is where they built the marina & now even restricting the Mexicans from being able to access the sea wall. In the 90's we camped at the "free beach" called Rattlesnake Beach, where the beach access is just before you get to Tripui R.V. Park. Today they tell me it's still "free". However, no trash pickup facilities there. Wonder where all those campers (must be over 20 sites) do their "dumping"???? There was an American who married a Mexican lady at Loreto years ago that "got" a concession for the furthest north portion. What a spot.!!!!!!!Was at the end of the road. We had been camping there for years. Was room for about 4-5 trailers/camps. Great evening campfires. Not a sandy beach like up north, but gravel.
Wasn't long before he closed access. He'd leave his small older camptrailer there, and when he'd come back from Oregon where he spent the summers (Honey Bee Jim was his name) he'd find his trailer broken into, and either Canadians or gringo's camped all over his site. Eventually, I don't think he spends much time there anymore, and when I go out I find different campers using his "concession"!!!!!! But, it's still a free beach for anyone. And right on the water. Seems to always have an open space or two when we drive out to see if we know anyone from the old days. And yes, there are still a few "hanger oners".