BajaNomad - Alarma a ecologistas auge turistico e inmobiliaro en Loreto, BCS

Alarma a ecologistas auge turistico e inmobiliaro en Loreto, BCS

flyfishinPam - 2-27-2007 at 12:00 PM

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2007/02/19/index.php?section=esta...

Loreto, BCS, 18 de febrero. La apacible e histórica ciudad de Loreto, Cuna de las Californias, vive un auge turístico e inmobiliario, lo que, según el Programa Subregional de Desarrollo Urbano de la zona, incrementará su población actual de 14 mil habitantes hasta en nueve veces en los próximos 25 años.

El grupo ecologista Antares sostuvo que este crecimiento demográfico "espanta" por sus implicaciones sociales, económicas y ambientales. Advirtió que las autoridades subestiman los números, pues suponen que por cada cuarto de hotel construido arribarán al municipio entre 2.7 y 13.5 personas, según el lugar, cuando en Los Cabos y Cancún la densidad promedio es de 20 personas por habitación edificada.

"Sólo en el desarrollo turístico inmobiliario Loreto Bay empresarios prevén construir 13 mil cuartos; es decir, habrá 260 mil nuevos habitantes en la región", señaló Sergio Morales Polo, representante del grupo no gubernamental en el Comité de Planeación Municipal.

Agregó que el Programa de Desarrollo Urbano sólo abarca el corredor Loreto-Nopoló-Puerto Escondido-Notri-Ligüi-Ensenada Blanca, es decir, 65 kilómetros de litoral, cuando todo el municipio cuenta con 225 kilómetros de playa, y hay desarrollos proyectados al norte y al sur, en San Bruno, San Bacilio, Tembabichi, Agua Verde y San Nicolás, sin injerencia de autoridades.

Precisó que el programa autoriza erigir 31 mil 914 cuartos de hotel en el corredor planificado, que generaría un impacto poblacional de 167 mil 203 personas -de acuerdo con autoridades- o de 638 mil 238 si se toma como parámetro el desarrollo de otros centros impulsados por el Fondo Nacional de Fomento al Turismo (Fonatur).

En general, se proyectan 80 mil cuartos de hotel, y crecimiento de un millón y medio de habitantes, en una región donde los mantos acuíferos sólo pueden soportar a 42 mil 200, sin padecer intrusión salina, señaló Morales Polo.

Desarrollos turísticos

Loreto, localizado en la parte media de la península de Baja California Sur -de donde partieron misiones religiosas de conquista hacia el sur del estado y al norte hasta la Alta California-, tiene 225 kilómetros de litorales en el mar de Cortés. En los años 70 fue elegido por Fonatur como emporio turístico de calidad mundial.

La dependencia adquirió en 1976 3 mil 522 hectáreas en la zona de Nopoló, 6 mil 400 en Puerto Escondido y 743 en Loreto, para construir hoteles, condominios y residencias turísticas; marinas y asentamientos humanos.

Los primeros hoteles comenzaron a operar en 1982 con una oferta de 454 cuartos, que incluían 138 habitaciones en el poblado de Loreto. El número de turistas registrados ese año fue de 46 mil.

A pesar de 3 mil 600 millones de pesos que Fonatur dijo invertir en infraestructura para Loreto, el proyecto quedó estancado hasta 2001, cuando el gobierno foxista lo relanzó.

Loreto Bay Company, de capital canadiense, fue la primera en tomar la palabra a Fonatur, con un proyecto de mil 600 cuartos de hotel, 6 mil 374 viviendas, 4 mil 571 villas residenciales, campo de golf, marina, spa, centro de pesca deportiva, restaurantes e instalaciones comerciales, recreativas y culturales.

En el corredor se contempla inversión de empresarios de Arizona en el proyecto Golden Beach -que ocupará 3 mil 458 hectáreas-, donde se pretende construir cuatro hoteles, dos campos de golf, una marina, villas residenciales, spa, área comercial y restaurantes.

Villas de Group, con experiencia en Los Cabos, promueve el complejo Ensenada Blanca, donde invertirá 750 millones de dólares en la construcción de 2 mil 200 cuartos de hotel en un plazo de 15 años, que generarán 6 mil 500 empleos.

Al norte del municipio, en San Bruno, fuera del área de planeación, ya se hizo oficial el inicio del proyecto Loreto Paraíso, del grupo español Fadesa, que contempla invertir 5 mil millones de dólares en una superficie de 3 mil hectáreas, y generar 3 mil empleos directos.

El plan maestro del complejo turístico que se presentó al gobernador Narciso Agúndez Montaño contempla 12 hoteles y 7 mil cuartos de hotel, dos campos de golf tipo campeonato y dos más tipo turista, 6 mil 500 unidades residenciales, una marina de 23 hectáreas con capacidad de mil amarres y una reserva natural de 800 hectáreas.

Ante la profusión de inversiones, el director del grupo Antares, Fernando Arcas, advirtió que el crecimiento será caótico y sus repercusiones en la naturaleza, devastadoras.

Sostuvo que autoridades y desarrolladores "toman con mucha ligereza" el tema del agua. Dicen que construirán desaladoras, pero no aclaran el tamaño de sus plantas, dónde las instalarán ni dónde depositarán la salmuera. Recordó que Antares impulsó "el parque nacional Bahía de Loreto, ya hay una regulación, pero no sabemos qué va a pasar con tanta gente".

Expresó que hay muchas preguntas sin responder, como dónde vivirán los trabajadores y sus familias; el uso de las playas de la zona, que son pequeñas, y el asunto de los servicios básicos para la población.

Arcas expuso que el argumento de las autoridades para traer inversiones a Loreto es el desarrollo y el empleo, pero la realidad es los buenos puestos serán para los de afuera, los lugareños deberán conformarse con ser jardineros, albañiles, plomeros y ejercer oficios por el estilo.

Puntualizó que en Loreto Bay, donde se construye un "Infonavit de lujo", se da la especulación de la tierra: pequeños terrenos ejidales que antes costaban 20 mil pesos, ahora se comercializan en un millón y medio, porque tienen playa al frente. "Son precios de locos, la tierra no los vale, porque carece de servicios, pero hay quien paga esas cantidades, sobre todo la gente que viene de Estados Unidos y Canadá", dijo.

Indicó que "por todos lados" se venden lotes, y comentó que el turismo se incrementó el año pasado, porque personas de La Paz, Los Cabos y extranjeros buscaban tierra para comprar.

Destacó que están en riesgo la sierra de la Giganta, el parque nacional Bahía de Loreto, islas, islotes, manglares, esteros y ojos de agua de la zona, sobre todo porque el Plan de Desarrollo Urbano los ignora, sólo ubica dónde estarán los desarrollos, cuántos cuartos se construirán y cuántos pisos van a tener los hoteles, además de que la mayor parte de los litorales, entre ellos San Bruno, no están planificados por el municipio.

"Si hay lugares que van a madrear son los manglares, Loreto Paraíso tiene un manglar precioso", señaló.

El presidente municipal panista de Loreto, Rodolfo Davis Osuna, más optimista, aceptó en entrevista que habrá un crecimiento poblacional acelerado, pero confió en que pronto habrá tres instrumentos para controlarlo: el Plan de Desarrollo Urbano, el Plan de Ordenamiento Ecológico y estudios científicos de los acuíferos de la región.

Admitió que el tema de la ecología preocupa a todos, y por eso se trabaja en la elaboración de documentos que den certidumbre al desarrollo con respeto al medio ambiente.

No obstante, Morales Polo, del grupo Antares, consideró "increíble que se haga un plan estratégico de desarrollo y no se tengan estudios científicos sobre el problema del agua en la región".

Oso - 2-27-2007 at 03:51 PM

Translation: Some suckers are going to lose some money. :rolleyes:

Bedman - 2-27-2007 at 08:16 PM

Oso, thanks for the brief. I barely read English and really struggle with Spanish articles that are short, let alone one that is 25+ paragraphs long.

I've yet to find ANY free translation web site that comes close to making any sense after translation. If anybody knows of one please post the site.

With that said, I'm sure this is something I'd like to know more about. Unfortunately, I'm just going to pass on it. IF, someone would like to post a readable copy, I will take the time.

Thanks,

Bedman

David K - 2-27-2007 at 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bedman
Oso, thanks for the brief. I barely read English and really struggle with Spanish articles that are short, let alone one that is 25+ paragraphs long.

I've yet to find ANY free translation web site that comes close to making any sense after translation. If anybody knows of one please post the site.

With that said, I'm sure this is something I'd like to know more about. Unfortunately, I'm just going to pass on it. IF, someone would like to post a readable copy, I will take the time.

Thanks,

Bedman

This is one of those terrible translations, but until a bilingual Nomad puts into real words, this might give you some idea of the contents:

Babel Fish Translation

In English:

Alarm to ecologists turistico height and inmobiliaro in Loreto, BCS http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2007/02/19/index.php?section=esta...

Loreto, BCS, 18 of February. The calm and historical city of Loreto, Cradle of the Californian, lives a tourist height and real estate, which, according to the Subregional Program of Urban Development of the zone, will increase its present population of 14 thousand inhabitants until in nine times in next the 25 years.

The ecological group Antares maintained that this population increase "frightens" by its social implications, economic and environmental. It noticed that the authorities underestimate the numbers, because they suppose that by each room of constructed hotel they will arrive at the municipality between 2,7 and 13,5 people, according to the place, when in the Cabos and Cancún the density average is of 20 people by built room. "Only in the tourist development real estate Loreto Bay industralists prevén to construct 13 thousand quarters; that is to say, there will be 260 thousand new inhabitants in the region ", indicated to Sergio Pole, representative of the nongovernmental group in the Committee of Municipal Planning Moral.

He added that the Program of Urban Development only includes the running White Escondido-Notri-Ligüi-Ensenada Loreto-Nopolo'-Port, that is to say, 65 kilometers of the coast, when all the municipality counts on 225 kilometers of beach, and is developments projected to the north and the south, in San Bruno, San Bacilio, Tembabichi, Green Water and San Nicholas, without interference of authorities. It needed that the program authorizes to erect 31 thousand 914 quarters of hotel in the planned runner, who would generate a population impact of 167 thousand 203 people - in agreement with authorities or of 638 thousands 238 if he is taken as parameter the development from other centers impelled by the National Bottom of Promotion to the Tourism (Fonatur).

In general, 80 thousand quarters of hotel project, and growth of a million and average one of inhabitants, in a region where the water-bearing mantles only can support to 42 thousands 200, without suffering saline intrusión, indicated to Morals Pole. Tourist developments Loreto, located in the average part of the peninsula of South Baja California - of where they divided religious missions of conquest for the south of the state and to the north until the High California -, has 225 kilometers of the coasts in the sea of Courteous.

In years 70 it was chosen by tourist Fonatur like emporio of world-wide quality. The dependency acquired in 1976 3 thousand 522 hectares in the zone of Nopoló, 6 400 in Hidden thousand Port and 743 in Loreto, to construct hotels, condominiums and tourist residences; navy and slumses. The first hotels began to operate in 1982 with a supply of 454 quarters, that included 138 rooms in the town of Loreto. The number of registered tourists that year was of 46 thousands. In spite of 3 thousand 600 million weights that Fonatur said to invest in infrastructure for Loreto, the project was suspended until 2001, when the foxista government relaunched it. Loreto Bay Company, of Canadian capital, was first in taking the word to Fonatur, with a project of thousand 600 quarters of hotel, 6 thousand 374 houses, 4 thousand 571 residential villas, golf course, navy, spa, commercial, recreational and cultural center of sport fishing, restaurants and facilities.

In the runner investment of industralists of Arizona in the project Golden Beach is contemplated - that will occupy 3 thousand 458 hectares -, where it is tried to construct four hotels, two golf courses, a residential navy, villas, spa, commercial area and restaurants. Villas of Group, with experience in the Cabos, promote the Embosomed complex White, where it will invest 750 million dollars in the construction of 2 thousand 200 quarters of hotel in a term of 15 years, that will generate 6 thousand 500 uses.

To the north of the municipality, in San Bruno, outside the area of planning, already official was made the beginning of the Loreto project Paradise, the Spanish group Fadesa, that contemplates to invest 5 billion dollars in a surface of 3 thousand hectares, and to generate 3 thousand uses direct. The masterful plan of the tourist complex that appeared the governing Narcissus Agúndez Montaño contemplates to 12 hotels and 7 thousand quarters of hotel, two golf courses type championship and two more type tourist, 6 thousand 500 residential units, a navy of 23 hectares with capacity of thousand moorings and one natural reserve of 800 hectares.

Before the profusion of investments, the director of the group Antares, Fernando Coffers, warned that the growth will be chaotic and its repercussions in the nature, devastating. It maintained that authorities and developers "take with much lightness" the subject from the water. They say that they will construct desaladoras, but do not clarify the size of his plants, where they will install them nor where will deposit the brine. It remembered that Antares impelled "the national park Bay of Loreto, already is a regulation, but we do not know what is going to happen with as much people".

He expressed that there are many questions without responding, as where the workers and their families will live; the use of the beaches of the zone, that are small, and the subject of the basic services for the population. Coffers exposed that the argument of the authorities to bring investments to Loreto is the development and the use, but the reality is the good positions will be for those of outside, the villagers will have to be satisfied to being gardeners, bricklayers, plumbers and exerting offices of the sort. It emphasized that in Loreto Bay, where a "Infonavit of luxury" is constructed, the Earth speculation occurs: small ejidales lands that before cost 20 thousand pesos, now are commercialized in a million and average one, because they have beach to the front. "They are prices of crazy people, the Earth she is not worth them, because she lacks services, but is one that pays those amounts, mainly the people that come from the United States and Canada", said. She indicated that "by all sides" lots are sold, and commented that the tourism was increased the last year, because people of La Paz, the Cabos and foreigners looked for earth to buy. She emphasized that they are in risk the mountain range of the Giganta, the national park Bay of Loreto, islands, small barren islands, manglares, matting and water eyes of the zone, mainly because the Plan of Urban Development ignores them, she only locates where they will be the developments, how many quarters will be constructed and how many floors are going to have the hotels, in addition of which most of the coasts, among them San Bruno, is not planned by the municipality. "If there is places that are going to madrear are manglares, Loreto Paradise must manglar precious", indicated.

The panista municipal president of Loreto, Rodolfo Davis Osuna, more optimistic, accepted in interview that will be an accelerated population growth, but trusted that soon there will be three instruments to control it: the Plan of Urban Development, the scientific Plan of Ecological Ordering and studies of the water-bearing ones of the region. It admitted that the subject of the ecology worries all, and for that reason it works in the document elaboration that gives certainty to the development with respect to the medio.ambiente. However, Morals Pole, of the Antares group, considered "incredible that formulates a strategic plan of development and scientific studies are not had on the problem of the water in the region".

Oso - 2-28-2007 at 08:14 AM

Sorry, I'm just feeling too lazy for that much work. You can probably figure it out from that "machine" translation. My prediction is that the predictions of exponential growth ain't gonna happen. When it gets to the point of a water crisis, the growth will come to a screeching halt and the late buyers in this huge ponzi scheme will lose their burros. Desalinazation plants? Yeah, right... :lol:

Osprey - 2-28-2007 at 10:14 AM

Pam, I am heartened that Mexico is starting to talk openly about desal salt brine and the problems it brings. I'm also feeling better about the whole thing when I learned the new port is the Keystone of the Sea of Cortez project and that it is control central for the vast experiment -- think Keystone and Cops. This bottleneck alone could stop or set back the whole project for years. Comments by the guy you met with the ponytail, the water guy for LBC, notwithstanding, they ain't gonna make new water unless it's with desal. Is it possible all the new homes in the first stage will get to the Notice of Completion date and find they have no water service?

flyfishinPam - 2-28-2007 at 01:01 PM

Hi there,

My secretary stumbled upon the article and I am too lazy to translate it. The reason I am too lazy is because this is an issue that Loretanos Spanish speakers need to understand. The main thing that I found important is that GEA is FINALLY speaking out about this issue of water that constantly has been swept under the rug. There will be uncontrolled development. The investors of these developments are here for reasons of investment and if it doesn't work they'll just pull out and leave Loretanos with the mess. There are a lot of issues apart from the water issue that were discussed in the article, where will all the workers live who will have to be here to maintain these second homes, timeshares, etc. Is this the only future our Loretano children have if they want to continue living here. So much to translate, so little time. I lose sleep over this as I've set roots here, my kids were born here and who's to say they have to leave if they are to have a good future? This is a timeless situation and it has happened in other parts of the world. Now it is happening here but its not too late to change it or at least put some semblence of control on it NOW. So I have printed many copies of this and passing it on to many people.

flyfishinPam - 2-28-2007 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Sorry, I'm just feeling too lazy for that much work. You can probably figure it out from that "machine" translation. My prediction is that the predictions of exponential growth ain't gonna happen. When it gets to the point of a water crisis, the growth will come to a screeching halt and the late buyers in this huge ponzi scheme will lose their burros. Desalinazation plants? Yeah, right... :lol:

Oso I had the same opinion, yeah right I'll believe it when I see it, really never thought it would happen. But you are not here and I am, I hardly ever leave. Its happening and its happening fast and it is not good. The people in town don't coplain about the fact that the water doesn't come out of their faucets on a consistent basis anymore. Loreto Bay who wasn't supposed to be getting the city's water, continues to get the city's water. There are not enough medical services, basic services, education, the list goes on, to support the people who are here now. Interesting to note is that the major projects are happening out of the city's small limits and the city people are kept in the dark as to what's going on. Indiginous being kicked off their land at San Bruno, townsfolk being threatened in Ensenada Blanca, a constant stream of lies from that 6000+ unit development in Nopolo. time for the information age to prove itself now. Already there is a desal plant in poeration at Puerto Penasco. What will the health of the Sea of Cortez be like once there's a desal plant right next to every single rung of the escalera nautica?

Oso - 2-28-2007 at 04:44 PM

Pam, I usually make fun of just about anything, it's just my way. But, I am truly sorry to see this disaster in the making and I only hope for your sake and that of the rest of the Loretanos that this can somehow be stopped.

"Infonavit de lujo" is a pretty funny description, though...

flyfishinPam - 2-28-2007 at 07:02 PM

Hey I re-read the article at home a few hours ago and its an important story. So I will translate it and it will be with tears in my eyes. Since I'm pretty busy with other stuff I'll need the weekend. You'll hear back from me then. hasta mas tarde

Don Alley - 3-1-2007 at 08:47 AM

The article throws a new one in the breach, Golden Beach, but it doesn't say where it will be and I haven't heard of that one.

Getting information is just so difficult, and that makes any meaningful input or dialog with government officials nearly impossible. It's not like the states where you can walk in to the local courthouse and find the plans, and see exactly where the water lines come from, and where the sewer lines go.

I am astonished, though, at these people who spend so much for these places with nothing but eco-babble to explain where their water will come from. Then again, while I've invested far less, I may end up the fool for assuming that my water supply would be secured by living in an established neighborhood, in town, sharing water lines with Mexican citizens. But it seems I won't know, until perhaps the day will come when saltwater comes through the pipes.

Dave - 3-1-2007 at 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Desalinazation plants? Yeah, right... :lol:

I'm involved with two developments on the West coast of Baja. Desal will be used for both. It's proven technology that works.

Where you put the brine is a legitimate concern, though.

Oso - 3-1-2007 at 10:07 AM

Well, they're cranking up the humongous one here in Yuma for a trial run, so we'll see.

Lorerto Development

Medina - 3-1-2007 at 10:08 AM

Hola Everyone,

I am researching setting up a small guest house in Baja and Loreto is a location which appeals. As part of my research I have received the marketing info from the Loreto Bay Company to see what exactly they are doing. I spoke with one of their sales people recently and enquired about the development at San Bruno. They feigned any knowledge of this. Now, reading this thread today, and seeing that there are multiple proposals for the Loreto coastline I cannot help but wonder if a lovely part of Mexican coastline is going to go the way of the Costa del Sol in Spain. The LBC say they will be water neutral but I wonder how this can be. Baja has a much drier climate than here so where is all the water going to come from. With so many new houses programmed for the Loreto area one wonders just how smart it is to invest there? In
Spain the Fadesa group are not noted for quality!I would be interested to hear from any of you guys who know Loreto what the existing water supply situation is like. Do you ever get cuts?

Saludos,

Medina

Crusoe - 3-1-2007 at 02:58 PM

Don Jorge.....Great post.......Dont ever let up.You have a great way with words....... It truly was the best place for "climate and dirt" in the world bar none!!! When I was a very young boy I would catch the school bus and ride to school looking at all the beautiful oarange groves and coast line and snow capped mountains and then on the way home after school where once stood an oarange grove their would be a shopping center.It all went to hell very quickly.Most people by their own human nature cant and wont see the big picture, and dont really care. The only thing that is a saving grace for the Loreto area now, is the fact that there is no mega 8 lane,70mph access freeway to all of Baja yet.I have been visiting, beach camping,sailing, and kayacking the area for 45 years now and have watched all the change.I just cant see it change as fast as the movers and shakers seem to think it will.Its a real big developer frenzy now.It will hopefully level out. Sorry to hear of the folks at San Bruno are getting displaced,and of the problems in Ensenada Blanca.My 3 cents worth.

wilderone - 3-1-2007 at 03:14 PM

Medina: no part of what Loreto Bay is doing is "sustainable"! Friggin lowlife, lying sacks of caka. There simply is not the water locally to support such absurd projections.

David K - 3-1-2007 at 06:03 PM

Welcome to Baja Nomad, Medina! :cool:

woody with a view - 3-1-2007 at 06:25 PM

Quote:

31,914 new hotel hotel rooms

gotta be global/local economic downturn to make the $ signs disappear from the developers eyes. 'tis gonna happen sooner than you think.

Don Alley - 3-1-2007 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Medina
I would be interested to hear from any of you guys who know Loreto what the existing water supply situation is like. Do you ever get cuts?

We sometimes lose service, but usually it is maintenence related, I think. Pressure varies; today mine was the highest I've seen.

Currently we pay a flat rate. Only some places have meters installed, so everyone pays the low flat rate. The water authority claims that as a result of the flat rate, and badly leaking pipes, the system is very inefficient and we are currently using enough water for a much larger city. 60% of the people do not pay for water, and the law does not allow them to be cut off. This reduces needed revenue to replace leaking pipes and install meters. But progress is being made in that regard and the city hopes that conservation will go a long way in meeting future water demand.

However, a professor from the University of Arizona believes the city is overly optimistic, and does not support their claims that the current supply can serve a population of 150,000. He put it closer to 45,000 maximum.

Interesting that Loreto Bay claims they will be "water neutral." They used to say they would "create" more than they use, and give the excess to Loreto. Generous? Maybe not when you figure most of the new demand resulting from development will be off site demand, in Loreto proper. In any event, they are building like crazy, yet most aspects of "sustainability" remain just talk.

It is looking like desalinization is where local government expects future supplies for the resorts to come from. Energy to run the deal plants? Solar. (Practical? I don't know). Salt residue? They don't take care of the Sea of Cortez and its resources today so I don't see government being too concerned with that.

So will you be wise to invest here? Well, you are a little late, prices are high. I do hope that you are excited about coming here and are interested in the people, the mountains, desert, and sea. Then you will receive value for your "investment." I understand that there are many visitors lately who could care less, and have only come becuase they are speculators looking for a hot investment location. I hope they lose their shirts.

Lorerto Development

Medina - 3-2-2007 at 12:59 AM

Hola Don Alley,

Many thanks for the reply. Just to put your mind at rest I am not a land speculator! I use the word "investment" in its pure term ,meaning that what I invest in my business I would hope to see grow over a period of time as a result of my input and an uplift in the economy.

I used the expression"water neutral" - my own words. I have read the info I received from LB Co. again and see they say they will return more water than they use. I am curious to know how this can be? Where I live in Spain there are plans to build a golf course etc but the developer will be using the recycled water from the sewage treatment plant to irrigate the course. That seems sensible.

What attracts me to Baja is the desert, the unusual flora and fauna, the sea activities, the marine life,the rawness of its environment.....
etc. If all the development proposals see the light of day the area will inevitably lose part of what attracts people to it in the first place.

As one of the other posters said "progress is inevitable". We can all debate if building houses,golf courses, hotels etc is progress. However, in many parts if the world the only means of providing work for the local population is through tourism development. This inevitably means
building houses etc. There is nothing wrong with this so long as the infrastructure can support the development planned and there are tight controls on the density and scale of the new build. In Spain, a mix of corrupt town hall officials and a shortage of central government funding for local government has led to mayors reclassifying rustic land as buildable land in return for a hefty payment from the developer.
I suspect this practice is widespread in many developing countries with tourist potential.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out.For my part I will continue to research the possibilities, buy more books about Baja ( I see my fellow countryman Graham MacKintosh has two titles I haven't read), keep reading the posts on the forum......

Un saludo muy cordial,

Medina

PS: Hi David K. You've clearly sussed my new identity :lol:

Don Alley - 3-2-2007 at 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Medina
...As one of the other posters said "progress is inevitable". We can all debate if building houses,golf courses, hotels etc is progress. However, in many parts if the world the only means of providing work for the local population is through tourism development...

Tourism is not being promoted here to provide work for the local people of Baja. You do not plan to build 10-20 thousand rooms (or more) to provide jobs for a community with a population of 12,000.

fdt - 3-2-2007 at 09:23 AM

IMHMO the way I see it is that there have been numerous attempts to build all over the peninsula, from the missionaries to present day, about 500 years worth and the water factor seems to be a comon denominator always. I like watching a program on PBS called California's Gold and they did a hole series of programs about water in California and the importance of it for the survival of the worlds 5th largest economy. I am amazed to see all of the different ways that California has to get water from, by having hughe dams and reservoirs, using water from snow in the sierras and so on and so on and of course the Colorado River. From what I know, we here in Baja California don't have all that, so maybe in the future there will be explorers of Baja looking for ruins of Loreto Bay, Paraiso del Mar, etc, etc? Maybe even lost cities like looking now for lost missions? :no:

http://www.calgold.com/water/

flyfishinPam - 3-2-2007 at 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Desalinazation plants? Yeah, right... :lol:

I'm involved with two developments on the West coast of Baja. Desal will be used for both. It's proven technology that works.

Where you put the brine is a legitimate concern, though.

Desal will KILL the surrounding seas. Desal on the west side of the peninsula can discharge waste into "open ocean" but the Sea of Cortez is prectically an inland sea. Desal plants shuld not be allowed as an option to produce freshwater in this area. I see the only viable alternative would be to build a desal plant away from the limits of Mag Bay and pipe the water to Loreto. Of course that would cost mucho dinero so won't be likely. I'm still translatin'

djh - 3-2-2007 at 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Medina
This inevitably means building houses etc. There is nothing wrong with this so long as the infrastructure can support the development planned and there are tight controls on the density and scale of the new build.

Which is prety much what we ALL worry about... There is NOT adequate infrastructure even for LBC ! (You can already see the impacts in and around Loreto.)

And... "Planning and controls" ? Que ?

Good discussion...

This place we all love will change over time, no doubt. We ALL simply hope to save what we love about it from the bulldozers... and hordes.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

Sharksbaja - 3-2-2007 at 04:09 PM

I guess both. Many Nomads understand my take , when they heard me years back.
Successful capitalism doesn't necessarily translate to livability for the casualties of development.
Wal-Mart for example up till recently marched into any community and forever changed the dynamics of the surrounding area both finacially and demographically. It can't help but happen if the green light is on and populations swell.
To them and LBC it's really all about the bottom line. When it isn't profitable anymore because of infrastructure they will move on to greener pastures. Hey, it's what they do.
Corporate spin is a machine. It has dollars hanging from it. When this attractive machine is placed in front of a suitable target it performs fantastically. It sways public opinion. It cozies up to officials and it reaches out to John Q.
It is a cryin' shame that the machine is more important than the host it is placed upon. People are naive and want to think rainbows and kumbaya. A load of crap. They want their stupid condos, boutiques and the "authentic" restaurants that the machine creates.
Ignorant and greedy govt and corporations sleep together to create these machines of income. How do you put a plug in it, or rather how do you unplug, that machine?

Pam, yer a good woman with a lot of guts. Mucho suerte

Don, you speak clearly and precisely, thanks.

Just read it again. I'll just cry. :no:

[Edited on 3-2-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Dave - 3-2-2007 at 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Desal will KILL the surrounding seas. Desal on the west side of the peninsula can discharge waste into "open ocean" but the Sea of Cortez is prectically an inland sea. Desal plants shuld not be allowed as an option to produce freshwater in this area. I see the only viable alternative would be to build a desal plant away from the limits of Mag Bay and pipe the water to Loreto. Of course that would cost mucho dinero so won't be likely. I'm still translatin'

There are other options. The most economical would be disposal wells. Salt could be harvested, also.

Eventually, desal won't be an option but a necessity...most everywhere.

Oso - 3-2-2007 at 06:59 PM

Just curious, salt is harvested from the sea in drying beds at GN. What detail is it that prevents the brine from desal plants being dried and harvested in the same manner?

flyfishinPam - 3-2-2007 at 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Just curious, salt is harvested from the sea in drying beds at GN. What detail is it that prevents the brine from desal plants being dried and harvested in the same manner?

My guess would be level of toxicity is too high (I'll look into this). If it could be done it already would be being done. I guess the price or winter road salt up in the snow country ought to come down.

Alan - 3-2-2007 at 10:07 PM

Let me start by admitting that I don't know the first darn thing about desal plants but was wondering... If you had a closed community like Loreto Bay and required it be on sewers, then supply water with a desal plant and treat the sewage like they do here in the states to the point it is actually potable. Once the water is to a safe level, recombine it with the salt that had been extracted and then return it to the sea. Due to evaporation, landscaping use, etc. the final mix would have a bit higher concentration of salt than what was originally extracted from the sea but evaporation goes on all day long in the ocean and even ground water eventually returns to the sea.

I'm not trying to justify Loreto Bay. I for one am very sad to see the changes in Loreto. Loreto had always been my favorite town on the peninsula but due to the changes of the last several years I have decided to purchase elsewhere.

I have just been following threads on desalinization and always heard about the problems associated with the brine that is left. Perhaps developers should be required to build water treatment plants that clarify twice as much water as their desal plant generate.

flyfishinPam - 3-3-2007 at 10:41 AM

Well here is the "solution"; keep the brine inside Loreto Bay! That would solve our problem because everyone knows they plan on either dumping it back into the sea, thus killng it and the livlihood of Loretanos, or dumping it off their prescious land onto someone else's. Maybe they could fill the mineral pools in their spas with brine, or they could salt the edges of their margaritas with it or better yet they could make brine building blocks to replace those adobes that aren't working.

Loreto

Medina - 3-3-2007 at 11:00 AM

Hola Pam,

What's the problem with the adobe blocks? Also, any idea what happens with the extracted salt in desal plants elsewhere in the world? For example,can it be sold or is it contaminated in the desal process.

Saludos,

Medina

Crusoe - 3-3-2007 at 12:20 PM

Medina.......A number of years ago in much of the Middle East the brine was loaded into barges and shipped out to sea and dumped at various loctions that where deemed " current friendly". In Loreto,s situation as in all of the Sea of Cotes, there are already large environmental problems with water circulation( the sea flushing itself back into the Pacific Ocean) and big problems with high polution and disreagard by the Mexican Govt..Dept. of Fisheries and all other suppossed ecoligical govt. agencies. The Sea of Cortes is, in all recent reports and studys, written by the best in their fields,is slowly becoming a "Biological Desert Fast". Just another big dead body of water.One of many on this planet.The way to haul the big brine barges out of the Sea Of Cortes, and far offshore into the Pacific,is by big ocean going tugs, and it is way to expensive for individual land deveolpers and they could care less. It has to be a govt. funded endeavor along with using other modern and very expensive new technologies to just sustain whats left of accectable water quality (beach quality)as we no it now.So far the Mexican Govt. has completely turned a blind eye to environmental conditions on the Baja penenusula. They haven,t even addressed as yet their land based horrid sewer conditions.The largest richest city of Tijuana is still dumping millions and millons of raw sewege each day into the Tijana River which dumps directly into The Pacifec Ocean ,which disperses it up and down the coast as a very vile form of untreated human waste, resulting in closures of many California beaches to the noth,and to the south,depositing debris so gross on beaches down the Baja coastline that it can really ruin your day. So why should people in Loreto hold out for much help. The brine will come and so will all the people.If thats what all the people of Loreto want.Thats my 3 cents worth!!Sorry for going on. :rolleyes:

Sea of Cortes/Loreto

Medina - 3-3-2007 at 12:39 PM

Thanks for that Crusoe. From what you say I guess I can take the "official protection" afforded to the Sea of Cortes through its designation as a Marine Park with a large - excuse the pun- pinch of salt! If so, how very sad. The attraction to me of the Baja peninsula was its supposedly virgin environment. The more I look into this it is clear that certain parts are not the untainted wilderness I imagined.However, the problem of untreated sewage being tipped into the oceans is not just confined to Baja. It still happens in Spain. In the small town where I live a sewage plant will be built shortly. At the moment, the foul water just seeps into the ground. If they screw up the Sea of Cortes,who will want to visit,set up a small business..etc?

Saludos,

Medina

Bajalife article

bajabeachbabe - 3-3-2007 at 04:26 PM

I thought I would repost the link to the Bajalife article on Loreto Bay.

http://www.bajalifemag.com/pdf/LoretoBay.pdf

It provided a very good discussion of the problems of such a large development, especially concerning the issues of water, waste and electricity.

I think it is very interesting that Loreto Bay wanted to utilize a wastewater garden system for their black and grey water but FONATUR rejected the idea. Here is a link for how the systems can be built:

http://www.wastewatergardens.com/

Our plans for our property north of town (which currently has no water, electricity or sewer) include building such a garden, as well as solar electricity and a personal desalination system. Even with a home desalination system, disposal of the salt is an issue. As mentioned in the article, it may be possible to pump the salt underground so that it will not be directly pumped back into the sea.

The article mentions that Loreto Bay plans to build a wind farm, and we looked into wind power generation for our house. You would think with all the wind in Loreto that wind power might work, but actually our calculations found that wind generation would be costlier and produce less power than solar.

I really wonder where all the water is going to come from, not only for Loreto Bay, but for the Ensenada Blanca resort and Golden Beach, which I think is at Puerto Escondido.

My only hope is that the town that my husband and I fell in love with, will still have the same "heart" when we can finally call it home. I know that the face of Loreto will be changing, but it is the soul of the town that I hope will be preserved.

Paula - 3-3-2007 at 09:13 PM

Bajabeachbabe, I don't understand how putting the salt into the ground could be a good way to dispose of it. Unless it is contained, it is going into the water table, and increasing the salinity of the ground water. Sometimes spinach or chard from Constitucion tastes salty even without the addition of salt in preparation, and I think that this may be due to saline seep into the water table as huge amounts of water are pumped out for irrigation. I just don't see any alternative to maintaining a balance of the amount of water used and the amount replenished. That said, I sure hope I'm wrong.

Loreto Bay Development

Medina - 3-4-2007 at 04:54 AM

Hole Baja Beach Babe,

Many thanks for the links. The article on sustainable development and the LB project is thought provoking.

The weakness of the adobe blocks vis a vis humidity is pretty startling. Seaside locations, anywhere in the world, are hard on building materials. You would have thought the developer would have sussed this out.

Will be interesting to see how all of this pans out.

On a more philosophical note, I wonder if the human species will ever
manage to devise a model of economic growth which balances the need for profit with the need to protect our environment. I have recently read Diamond Jareds book "Collapse" which narrates and analyses the failure of civilisations. Easter Island is a classic example of our species
laying waste to the local environment and destroying their society in the process. I am not suggesting this will happen in Baja but it serves as an example of what can occur when the economic demands of mankind hinder and eventually consume the regenerative processes of the natural world.

I guess the essence of the problem is in finding an equilibrium between the short term need to create profit,which pays salaries etc.,and the longer term need to preserve the environment so that the land will continue to support human life and economic activity for future generations.However, society is not static and the challenge is to find a balance between the competing needs of "capital" and the preservation of all that surrounds us.

In a delicate eco-system such as Baja I would have thought it much smarter,indeed obvious, to proceed on a sequential basis. In other words, do not give approval for multiple and competing projects before you have had the opportunity to evaluate the impact of an initial (independently evaluated and controlled) project. It's really a case of not putting all your eggs in one basket. If we screw up in the short term the game's over.

Well, that's my 2 euros worth for Sunday morning. I don't pretend to have the answers but the discussion is worth having as this is an issue in many parts of the globe.

Now time for a cool Cruz Campo :tumble:

!!

Saludos,

Medina

Pescador - 3-4-2007 at 09:59 AM

In all of the desal plants in the middle east, they were never able to locate these facilities, if I understand correctly, in the dead sea or other areas of very high salinity. Because the Sea of Cortez is open only at one end, and no longer has a large annual influx of fresh water from the Colorado River, the salinity is already much higher than other seas. If desal byproduct or high level brine is allowed to be put back into the Sea then we may well see the largest ecological disaster we have ever seen. The salinity levels are already in the area of 45-50 ppm which is much higher levels than even across the peninsula in the area of Mag Bay or Abreojos. I am sure that it is going to take someone of much higher scientific abilities to come up with the answers to those questions, but the fear that I have is that those questions are not even being asked. I am far from being a green liberal tree hugger and find myself having some difficulty with the idea of being a Chicken Little screaming about the sky is falling, but the very concept of limited development and primitive conditions is what brought me to Baja and it is with a great deal of sadness that I see the insidious black cloud of development hanging over me. I live happily for 6 months of the year in a trailer with an attached palapa with only solar for energy and water that I carry in a barrel when I need it and so far I have been able to avoid the places full of tourists like Pam described with silver jewelry, designer clothing, and just a little too loud voices, that seem to permeate the places like Cabo and Loreto. Even though I could afford that lifestyle, it isn't what I was really looking for. How could I trade good fishing, having pot lucks with friends, playing guitars and singing with others on the beach in place of TV, walks in the desert, looking at the stars that go on forever because there is no other light, or taking time to just sit and really feel the pulse of the earth. So I don't care that there are places like Loreto and Cabo, but there does not seem to be any borders to keep the plague from spreading.

wilderone - 3-5-2007 at 09:39 AM

You all are something. A couple years ago, you couldn't (didn't, wouldn't) consider everything that is now a reality - the lies of LB (obvious from the start), the little town that no longer is (big surprise), the threats to the environment (toldjaso 3 years ago). Are you still preaching "it's their country?" It may not be too late - but your passivity and complacence is part of the problem.

Sharksbaja - 3-5-2007 at 12:57 PM

amen..... tho I doubt their armchair involvement would/could/will make a ripple in the pond. The (LBC)shovel speaks louder than cautionary words from a bunch of expats..

sharks and wilderone so you guess we deserve that?

flyfishinPam - 3-5-2007 at 01:56 PM

Do we deserve your words?

Could I or others in business here with families help being excited after years of very slow economic growth, look forward to a better financial future than we had? I for one was happy about LB because I knew Fonatur's plan before LB came along and LB's seemed better. I and many like me were looking forward to having income throughout the year and not only just on a seasonal basis. I'm not a retired expat, you don't even know me. Your words are harsh but don't throw them around like that until you really know to whom you're addressing them to. So shoot me because I was looking forward to having a little better financial situation than before after working my a$$ off literally 365 days a year and on call 24/7. I was happy for my neighbors to have more opportunities, for my friends, so line us up and shoot us all mr "I told you so". Now we find that we were and are being lied to. We were never told the real "plan" and now we're finding out and we're doing something about it (in this case spreading the word). You don't know me and you don't know those in my circle who are right now doing what we can to prevent all hell from breaking loose here. What else can we do, sit around and moan and do nothing? Leave? Post 3,000 messages on bajanomad to become a supreme nomad know it all? Why don't you come up with some real solutions that are constructive instead of constantly criticizing? I'm all ears.

I'll be posting the translated article this evening when I can get back on the internet.

jimgrms - 3-5-2007 at 02:39 PM

Wild one have you done anything to correct this situation except tell people that they should have done it another way

I guess I expected same years ago

Sharksbaja - 3-5-2007 at 02:51 PM

But was scoffed at. I think your mission is correct Pam. What I don't understand was your trust in Fonatur and LBC. I really am an idiot when it comes to Mexican motivation .
I also feel that while I try to communicate a belief or feeling others try to stifle that with their own profound positive wisdom. Issues like this need advocates whether thru criticism or direct involment. Don't take it so personally. I'm actually behind your mission.
If you've read my post(s) concerning my involvement with coastal destruction and the crap I went through for years you might understand my distrust towards big govt and big corporations. It has not to do with you per se. It has to do with the lubricated partnership and collusion between the two.
The fact that you stand up for the sea is very admirable and I have respect for you for doing so. But look, the greedy bastards have and will continue to have, support from those who will benefit monetarily. It's a friggin' greedy world.

I'm sorry that you were lied to. Perhaps when I was trying to explain something I felt nobody listened. So you see, we both are from the same camp. You just haven't been a part of the scenario like I was. Experience is always a teacher.

Obviously you care enough to persue legislation and/or ideas to bring about a provision for future generations and I applaud you for that. My constant critisizing(if that's all you see) is designed not to make you dislike me or be some kind of antagonist(which is not always bad) rather it's designed to shake the tree of reality.

Maybe my bedside manner is what you object to. Maybe I should not enter in to conversations that I've already commented on. Can you learn something from someone that sees an issue from another perspective, regardless if it makes you smile. Yes, I can.

My point with that last point echoes loudly what is a real dilemma in Mexico. WE WHO CARE, have little resolve when it comes to big biz and govt sleeping together. How many times do we philosophize without entering the water ourselves. That does not mean you.
Like I said, you have a lot of guts Pam. My only suggestion at this time is to seek representation from some filthy rich person with political strings. Grassroot concerns are a good thing but remember where yer at.

OK Pam, I'll think about what you said.

Dave - 3-5-2007 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Why don't you come up with some real solutions that are constructive instead of constantly criticizing? I'm all ears.

Have LB and other developments finance the town's water/sewer infrastructure. If they don't wanna play then start by tripling property taxes and stop issuing building permits. They'll come around.

Don Alley - 3-5-2007 at 03:48 PM

One problem that need solutions is an economic/political system that embargoes news and quarantines decisions. Only those who stand to profit, and a handful of very inexperienced rural part-time politicians have any real input. So working the problem from this end, through government planning and oversight, is problematic not only for retired expats, but those with small businesses employing locals, and for local people themselves.

Another option is through publicity, or you can say propoganda. Developers have been very active in this regard, with their publicity and salepitches to a public that seems largely incapable of critical thought. One area where perhaps, over time, we can have an impact is to poison that well with critical ideas. Availability of fresh water, sewage, rapid population growth, traffic, crime, wind, dust, heat, and the visible realities of development and their impact vs. the invisible, make believe world of "sustainable" features, "coming soon... someday, maybe.

Squeeze em

Sharksbaja - 3-5-2007 at 04:19 PM

It would possibly be prudent to approach goals from a more political standpoint. The people of Loreto, who I have learned, have great pride and respect for their town. They have been through a similar situation years ago and perservered in face of change. They stood their ground then. I suspect they would do so again come the need.
Well the need is here. The power of public opinion is a big player when it comes to Politico.

That an avenue of influence, the people of Loreto, could levy some heat. THis should be in the form of peaceful rallies and speakers and documents circulated to gather support and gain recognition.
Media reps should be invited and it/they should organize well the event(s).
Intellectuals should be invited to show their work and express their concerns.
Both domestic and international interests would be of great value.
Other contributions could be of any number of private or public authorities.
The whole feeling should be of a positive concern rather than just bashing the subjects of the rally. The event(s) should include an invitation to all the people of Loreto. Don't forget the Mariachis and dancing and food and entertainment. I'd just love to see this type of response.

THe message needs to be clearly articulated. The area is precious and the resources and the ability to manage it are not defined and are of serious concern. It's a fragile ecosystem.

That's what I'd like to see happen, but hey, I grew up in the sities. :lol:

Osprey - 3-5-2007 at 06:31 PM

Pam, don't let em up. Keep whuppin their asses. I just want to see this thread go on and on with their "What could we do?" "We were only trying to help." "Maybe we have new ideas now." " Maybe YOU AND I TOGETHER COULD/SHOULD DO THIS THAT AND THE OTHER THING." Tell em to paint their own barns.

wilderone - 3-5-2007 at 06:35 PM

"...you really know to whom you're addressing them to" Yes, I do - replies are on the archives.
What have I done? I have written to several Mexican environmental organizations; I have contacted LB and brought my concerns to them; I discussed my concerns with Surfrider Foundation; I have written to Natural Resource Defense Council and sent them documents; I wrote to Baja Life 3 years ago and sent them documents. I have emailed FONATUR. I wrote a letter to the Secretary of Tourism. I attend LB presentations in San Diego and criticized the project with everyone I spoke with. Through this forum, I have repeatedly informed anyone who cared to know about who the principals of LB really are, their background; I have pointed out the lies and inconsistencies in LB literature - anyone could confirm it or look into further for themselves. The bullchit was so obvious. But what was the response: “you can’t stop progress.” “It’s their country.” And what should you do now, you ask. March in the streets; picket; form a committee and contact every Mexican environmental organization who has any authority whatsoever and invite them for meetings; accuse; file complaints; demand meetings with LB; voice your complaints to them; go to local government meetings (if there are any), and put issues on the agenda. Demand meetings with the Loreto Bay Foundation board and demand accountability. Strike. Block the roads. Tell them they lied. Demand answers (which they won’t have), so then file complaints for fraud, misrepresentation. Write opinion articles for the paper. Contact the Gringo Gazette and tell them how you feel and what's going on. Take photos - post them on the internet. With a group of people, write an article of Truth, and submit it to the San Diego Union and the Phoenix and Scottsdale papers - that's where they market LB property. Get started with these:

Mr. VICTOR LICHTINGER
SECRETARIA DEL MEDIO AMBIENTE Y RECURSOS NATURALES (SEMARNAT)
PERIFERICO SUR 4209
COL. JARDINES DE LA MONTAÑA
TLALPAN
14210 MEXICO D.F. MEXICO

EMAIL: vlichtinger@semarnat.gob.mx

*****************************************
* Grupo de los Cien Internacional, A.C. *
Apartado Postal 41-523
Col. Virreyes
* Mexico D.F. 11001, Mexico *
* Fax (525)520-3577 *
<grupo100@laneta.apc.org>
FONATUR:
MISION
“Participar en la consolidación del desarrollo sustentable del país, a través del fomento de la actividad turística nacional”.
John McCarthy
FONDO NACIONAL DE FOMENTO AL TURISMO
Tecoyotitla No. 100
Col. Florida C.P. 01030 México D.F.
Tel.: 54 - 48 - 42 - 00
____________________________
SECRETARÍA DE TURISMO
Av. Presidente Masaryk No. 172, Col. Chapultepec Morales,
C.P. 11587, México, Distrito Federal.
Teléfono: (55) 3002-6300

____________________

Pro Peninsula
P.O. Box 7175 San Diego, CA 92167
Tel: (619) 723-0700 Fax: (619) 374-7162
Email: info@propeninsula.org

_______________________

The Secretariat of Environment and Natural Resources (Secretaría del Medio Ambiente y Recursos Naturales, SEMARNAT) is a government agency whose main purpose is to create a State environmental protection policy reversing the tendencies of ecological deterioration and establishing the bases for a sustainable development in the country.
The generation of scientific and technical information on environmental issues and the training of human resources, in order to inform society, support decision making, encourage the protection of the environment, promote the sustainable use of natural resources, and support the Secretary of the Environment and Natural Resources in reaching its goals.
SEMARNAP - Raúl Marcó del Pont Lalli. Dirección de Publicaciones.
Instituto Nacional de Ecología
Periférico sur 5000, Col. Insurgentes Cuicuilco
Deleg. Coyoacán, C.P. 04530
Tel.: (55) 54 24 64 35, fax: (55) 54 24 52 41
E-mail: pmarco@ine.gob.mx

______________________

PROFEPA:
Mission:
Contain the destruction of our natural resources and to revert the processes of environmental deterioration.
Ensure the unrestricted access to society to the duty of doing environmental justice in a prompt manner.
Involve Society and its organizations in the surveillance and induction of the compliance with environmental law. Society and its organizations must be informed and have a responsible participation.
Strengthen the presence of the Attorney General for Environmental Protection and to extend its territorial coverage, with a federalist criteria.
Construct an efficient and modern institution, under criteria of honesty, transparency and trustworthiness, transmitting a new image to society.

Corrently Mr. Luege is the Attorney General for Environmental Protection, at the ministry of environment and National Resources
Address: La Ley al Servicio de la Naturaleza®. México D.F. 2002. Derechos Reservados. Desarrollado por
Kiven S.C.
Federal attorney for environmental protection:
Edificio AJUSCO
Carretera Picacho-Ajusco 200
Col. Jardines en la Montaña
Deleg. Tlalpan, C.P. 14210, México D.F.
tel. 54-49-63-00
De cualquier parte de la República marque sin costo al teléfono
01-800-77-033-72
01-800-77-033-72
pfpaweb@correo.profepa.gob.mx
________________________________

WiLDCOAST is an international conservation team dedicated to preserving endangered marine species and threatened coastal wildlands of the Californias. Through community-based conservation, we work to eliminate threats to ecosystems and to develop reserves to permanently protect sensitive areas. Our partnerships with local people, governments, and nonprofit organizations are critical to the successful recovery of imperiled species and the defense of their coastal habitats.
WiLDCOAST
925 Seacoast Drive
Imperial Beach, CA 91932
Phone: (619) 423-8665
Fax: (619) 423-8488
Email: info@wildcoast.net
____________________

Nature Conservancy:
Our Mission
To preserve the plants, animals and natural communities that represent the diversity of life on Earth by protecting the lands and waters they need to survive
Worldwide Office
The Nature Conservancy
4245 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 100
Arlington, VA 22203-1606
Southern Baja California Program
Calle Alvaro Obregón #460 Of. 206
Colonia Centro
La Paz, Baja California Sur 23000
Mexico
(52) 612 125-9444
California Field Office
201 Mission Street
4th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
(415) 777-0487
calweb@tnc.org

_______________________

Pronatura A. C
What they do: Los seres humanos, al igual que todas las especies que pueblan la Tierra, nuestro planeta, formamos parte del rico espectro de la vida, del cual dependemos para sobrevivir: los ecosistemas naturales nos proporcionan alimentos, medicinas, agua, oxígeno y diversas materias primas.

El mundo vivo está lleno de belleza natural y es extraordinariamente diverso. La Tierra es nuestra casa, pero también el hogar de millones de especies que han evolucionado junto con nosotros en todos los ecosistemas del mundo. De su funcionamiento adecuado depende el equilibrio planetario.
Aspérgulas N° 22 (antes Pino)
Col. San Clemente, C. P. 01740, México, D.F.
Tel./fax (55) 5635-5054
pronatura@pronatura.org.mx
www.pronatura.org.mx

CONANP:

Alfredo Zavala Gonzáález, oversees protection of the Sea of Cortez islands for Mexico's National Commission of Protected Areas
Qué es la CONANP?
La Comisión Nacional de Áreas Naturales Protegidas, Conanp es un órgano desconcentrado de la Secretaría de Medio Ambiente y Recursos Naturales, la Comisión está a cargo de la administración de las Áreas Naturales Protegidas, uno de los instrumentos básicos de la política de conservación de la biodiversidad, tambien es responsable de instrumentar los Programas de Desarrollo Regional Sustentable no sólo en Áreas Naturales Protegidas sino en otras Regiones Prioritarias para la Conservación que no cuenten con un decreto de proteción.
Dirección General de Manejo para la Conservación
Subdirección de Análisis de Información Espacial

Camino al Ajusco #200, Col. Jardínes en la Montaña, Delegación Tlalpan, México, Distrito Federal, Código Postal 14210,
Conmutador +52 555449 6300, Correo electrónico info@conanp.gob.mx

MEXIDATA@IX.netcom.com
Barnard R. Thompson
MIRA
PO Box 33782
San Diego CA 92163
Barnard Thompson has spent more than 40 years in Mexico and Latin America, providing consulting, business, governmental affairs, facilitation, lobbying and problem resolution services for a variety of multinational clients. A free-lance writer and columnist, his commentary and op-ed pieces on Mexico and Mexican affairs, U.S.A.-Mexico relations, the NAFTA, and other Latin American subjects and issues have appeared in publications worldwide.
___________________

Investigacion y Conservacion de Mamiferos Marinos de Ensenada, A.C., to evaluate the environmental impact of fishing and boat traffic on whales and dolphins and start an environmental education program.
Pro Esteros, Lagunas y Marismas de las Californias, A.C., to help protect the Mona Estuary at Bahia de los Angeles.
________________

Loreto Tourism Office:
Email: fomixlor@lapaz.cromwell.com.mx
________________________
Melissa Paxton,
Director of Environmental Affairs,
Baja Life Magazine
melpax@hotmail.com

Crusoe - 3-5-2007 at 06:52 PM

Wilderone......Thanks for all the good energy and address's of where we can write. Myself and all my friends will write and get after them!! :no:

flyfishinPam - 3-5-2007 at 07:00 PM

Here's the original article translated.

Keep in mind that I did not write it. Also that the impact in Spanish is slightly different from the English version as some things or suggested ideas and conceptes just do not translate. In addition, I have gringoified it, that is to say that I tried like heck to avoid the lengthy run-on sentences so common in the Spanish language.
.....................

Ecologists alarmed at the tourism and real estate deluge in Loreto, B.C.S.

Loreto, B.C.S., 18 february. The once forgotten and historic city of Loreto, Birthplace of the Californias, is currently living in a deluge of tourism and real estate projects. This follows the plan of the Subregional Program of Urban Development in the zone which will see an increase in population. The current population is 14,000 inhabitants and will increase nine times in the next 25 years.

The Antares Ecological Group (GEA) wonders what implications this “intimidating” demographic growth will have on Loreto’s society, economy and environment. They mention that the authorities under estimate the numbers. They only figure that for every hotel room constructed, the population of the municipality will increase between 2.7 and 13.5 persons, while en Los Cabos and Cancun the density is 20 persons per constructed [hotel] room.

“Only the development of Loreto Bay, where they’re planning to construct 13,000 hotel rooms, will bring 260,000 new inhabitants to the region.” pointed out Sergio Morales Polo. Morales Polo represents the non-governmental Municipal Planning Committee.

He added that the Urban Development Program only covers the Loreto-Nopolo-Puerto Escondido- Notri-Ligui-Ensenada Blanca area. That’s only 65 kilomerers of shoreline while the municipality of Loreto contains 225 kilometers of shoreline. There are other development projects to the north and the south, in San Bruno, San Basilio, Tembabichi, Agua Verde and San Nicholas without interference of authorities.

Precisely the same program that authorized to approve of 31,914 hotel rooms in the planned corridor, will generate an impact on the population by increasing it 167,203 persons. -Approved by the authorities- Or the impact could be in increasing it by 638,238 persons if Loreto follows other tourism projects catalyzed by fonatur.

In general, they project 80,000 hotel rooms and a growth of 1,500,00 persons in a region where the subterranean aquifers can only support 42,200 before saline intrusion occurs, pointed out Morales Polo.

Tourism Developments

Loreto is localized in the middle of the Peninsula de Baja California sur –which was founded by missionaries as a religious settlement and grew as far as California USA. Loreto has 225 kilomertes of shoreline along the Sea of Cortez. In the 1970’s Loreto was selected by fonatur to become a world class tourism destination.

In 1976, Fonatur acquired 522 hectares of land in the Nopolo zone, 6,400 hectares en Puerto Escondido and 743 in Loreto to construct hotels, condos, and vacation residences, marinas and human settlements.

The first hotels started to operate in 1982, offering 454 hotel rooms, which included 138 in the town of Loreto. The number of registered tourists that year was 46,000.

The 3,600,000 pesos that fonatur said they invested in the infrastructure for Loreto, stood at a standstill until 2001 when the Fox government revived it.

Loreto Bay Company, of Canadian capital, was the first to take the Fonatur’s word. They’re projecting 600 hotel rooms, 6,374 residences, 4,571 villas, golf course, marina, spa, sport fishing center, restaurants and commercial, recreation and cultural centers.

Villas Group with experience in Los Cabos, has announced their acquisition of Ensenada Blanca, where they will invest 750,000,000 dollars in the construction of 2,200 hotel rooms in the span of 15 years and will generate 6,500 jobs.

North of the city in San Bruno, outside the area of urban planning, the project Loreto Paraiso has just been made official. This project is by Fadesa Group of Spain, who is contemplating to invest 5,000,000 dollars in their area of 3,000 hectares and generate 3,000 direct jobs.

The master plan of tourism that was presented by governor Narcisco Agundez Montano contemplated 12,700 hotel rooms, two championship golf courses, 6,500 residential units, a 23 hectare marina with a capacity of 1,000 moorings and a 800 hectare natural reserve.

With this profusion of investment, the director of GEA, Fernando Arcas, pointed out that the growth will be chaotic and its repercussions on the environment devastating.

He suspects that authorities and developers “have taken with much levity” the topic of water. They say that they will construct desalination plants but they don’t declare the size of these plants, where they will put them, or where they will deposit the waste. Remember that GEA was the force behind the creation of “the National Bay of Loreto Marine Park”, where there are regulations, but we don’t know what will happen with so many people”.

He expressed that there are many questions without answers, like where will the workers and their families live; and the use of the beaches within the zone which are small, and the subject of the basic services for the population.

Arcas objected to the argument given by the authorities that development brings investment and employment to Loreto, but in reality the good jobs are for those from outside Loreto, and Loretanos must submit to becoming gardeners, construction workers, plumbers and conform to the demands of the age.

In Loreto Bay where they are making “luxury ‘projects’ ”, they have been land speculating: small ejido lots that before cost 20,000 pesos now they are marketing for 1,500,00 because they have the beach in front. “Those are prices for crazies, the land does not have value to them, only how its presented, but there are those who pay these quantities within the people who come from the US and Canada.” He said.

He indicated that “everywhere” they are selling lots, and he commented that tourism has increased last year because people from La Paz, Los Cabos and foreigners are looking for land to buy.

The Sierra de la Giganta, the Bay of Loreto Marine Park, islands, islets, mangroves, estuaries and springs within the zone are all at risk because of what the Urban Development Plan has ignored. They only say where the developments will be, how many rooms will be constructed and how many floors the hotels will have. But the major portion of the shorelines, among those projects San Bruno, are not planned by the city.

“If there are places that will suffer it will be the mangrove estuaries. Loreto Paraiso has a precious mangrove estuary”, he said.

The municipal president (mayor) of Loreto, Rodolfo Davis Osuna, more optimistically, accepted an interview about what he has done about the accelerated population growth, but he admitted that soon there will be three instruments to control it: the Urban Development Plan, the Ecological Ordinance Plan and scientific studies of the regions aquifers.

He admitted that the subject of the ecology worries everyone, and because of that he’s working to on elaborating documents that give certification to development projects with respect to the environment.

They’re not paying attention, said Morales Polo of GEA, “incredible that they make a strategic plan of development and they don’t have any scientific studies about the problem of water supply in the region.”

Skeet/Loreto - 3-6-2007 at 07:45 AM

When and If it gets bad enough, the People of Loreto will respond as they have in the Past!

They will March out in force and close the Road and prevent the passage of Vehicles from the North and the Airport---Just as they did on the Water Problem many years ago as well as the time when they wanted the Mission Bell brought from La Paz.

Time will Tell!

Skeet/Loreto

Don Alley - 3-6-2007 at 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
When and If it gets bad enough, the People of Loreto will respond as they have in the Past!

They will March out in force and close the Road and prevent the passage of Vehicles from the North and the Airport---Just as they did on the Water Problem many years ago as well as the time when they wanted the Mission Bell brought from La Paz.

Time will Tell!

Skeet/Loreto

Nope. Too late.

The people of Loreto now are mostly from Oaxaca and they work for Loreto Bay. :biggrin:

Bedman - 3-7-2007 at 02:20 AM

Pam (and Osprey)
Thank you so much for taking the time to translate the article.

I wish I had answers to this dilema but I don't. I do have hope for the Escalera Nautica curse to fall on the LBC projects.

sincerely,

Bedman

wilderone - 3-7-2007 at 10:14 AM

Yesterday I sent a letter and other materials to the San Diego Union Tribune, suggesting that a story on the status of the LB project is due, with a focus on getting real answers to the questions of water, electricity and sewage vis a vis LB's promises and the scientific reports of an insufficient water supply. As you know, LB has an office and market the property in San Diego.
I also made an inquiry to the Loreto Bay Foundation regarding its 2006 annual report. They replied that it will be out in the next few weeks and posted online.

flyfishinPam - 3-8-2007 at 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Yesterday I sent a letter and other materials to the San Diego Union Tribune, suggesting that a story on the status of the LB project is due, with a focus on getting real answers to the questions of water, electricity and sewage vis a vis LB's promises and the scientific reports of an insufficient water supply. As you know, LB has an office and market the property in San Diego.
I also made an inquiry to the Loreto Bay Foundation regarding its 2006 annual report. They replied that it will be out in the next few weeks and posted online.

I would like to apologize to you and to sharks on my response a few days ago. It came out of frustration and a feeling of helplesness. My background is in science, chemistry and biology and I have always in my professional life, and now dealt in facts, black and white. I have no experience in environmental and political issues and how they are dealt with. So I am doing the best that I can. THanks you for putting this to the attention of the newspapers in the US. funny thing is that when the Gringo GAzette made its presence known in Loreto it was on the basis that they would do some investigative reporting about the projects destined for this area. So I advertized and paid in advance only to see a huge ad from LB and a few lame stories about them. another case of my "getting had" falling for the bait. So after many tries as teh editor trying to get me to write for them, I decicdeed to keep my good name (if I have one anymore) out of it. I am told this morning that Loreto will no longer appear in their paper because they are unhappy at the disinterest in the ad base. I pulled my ad last issue because I felt that I was deceived. guess it won't be the last time. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the focus needs to be on the people of Loreto as thus far they are being deliberately kept in the dard on the entire issue and the powers that be are hoping this will continue until after its too late. And what Skeet described happened in the past but we are beyond that point with this issue now.

Pam

Sharksbaja - 3-8-2007 at 12:34 PM

I would also like to apologize for my back-handed response. My feelings towards this crisis run deep and your post got the better of me. I was passionately peeed off that the authorities are so friggin blind.
Like the Wildone, I also sent letters seeking to bolster support that focus on the future of uncontrolled development which will eventually exact it's toll on the sea we all love.
Keep up the push Pam. I'll help as I can to involve or direct interested parties. No hard feelings...please.
Corky

[Edited on 3-8-2007 by Sharksbaja]

wilderone - 3-8-2007 at 12:52 PM

The grants from the LB Foundation is supposed to help the citizens of Loreto. You should form a committee to apply for grants on a regular basis which reflect the needs of the community - library, patrol boat, gasoline storage for patrol boats, medical equipment, trash maintenance, refurbished toilets at the bus station, sidewalk repair, etc.
If there is an LB property owner out there who has access to the "homeowner only" newsletter, let us know what LB is telling you about its plans. As a sidenote, why is news of any substance on their website kept from the public? Any LB full time residents? What's the scoop?
I think I'll write to LB. I'll quote their promises and ask what the current status is. I'll dare them to reply. For instance, what has become of their liaison with Ocean Alliance and their plan to build a marine research center?

Loreto Bay Company

Medina - 3-8-2007 at 01:22 PM

Hi everyone,

Received an update e mail from LBC today as I had asked them for info on their project recently.

Citigroup Property Investors have formed a joint venture with LBCo and now have shared ownership of the project.

The e mail also advised that:

They have done the first archaeology dig and found some artefacts;
They have a forest of boxed trees for replanting at Aqua Viva following plant material removal; They have built a new home for the local bat population (previously lived in a Fonatur unfinished convention centre);
Under their Reptile Rescue programme, 101 beasties have been saved in the last 6 weeks.

You guys on the ground may already know all this stuff. I guess it makes good headlines but is hardly earth shattering stuff.

Saludos,

Medina

Don Alley - 3-8-2007 at 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Medina
Hi everyone,

Received an update e mail from LBC today as I had asked them for info on their project recently.

Citigroup Property Investors have formed a joint venture with LBCo and now have shared ownership of the project.

The e mail also advised that:

They have done the first archaeology dig and found some artefacts;
They have a forest of boxed trees for replanting at Aqua Viva following plant material removal; They have built a new home for the local bat population (previously lived in a Fonatur unfinished convention centre);
Under their Reptile Rescue programme, 101 beasties have been saved in the last 6 weeks.

You guys on the ground may already know all this stuff. I guess it makes good headlines but is hardly earth shattering stuff.

Saludos,

Medina

We also have seen parade after parade of dump trucks bringing in dirt to make the pads for all of the building they are doing. The source, where all that soil is excavated, is behind a locked gate.

Maybe that's what they rescued the reptiles from.

Maybe they are keeping the bats there.

we all knew this... somehow

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2007 at 12:00 AM

Jan. 24, 2007

Citigroup Property Investors Takes On Loreto Bay Company´s Sustainable Vision Through a Joint Venture
LORETO, Mexico, Jan. 24 /PRNewswire/ --

LORETO, Mexico, Jan. 24 /PRNewswire/ -- Loreto Bay Company and Citigroup Property Investors (CPI) announced today a joint venture resulting in shared ownership of Loreto Bay Company. The Company is the developer of North America's largest sustainable resort community located in the region of Loreto in Baja California Sur, Mexico. Citigroup Property Investors provided growth capital to the Company to accelerate its business plan, and contributed its share of the Inn at Loreto Bay, a previous joint venture by the two companies, in exchange for units of Loreto Bay Company.

"Citigroup Property Investors' strong reputation and interest in our sustainable platform make them an ideal partner to help Loreto Bay Company's vision become reality," said Tom Nolan, COO of Loreto Bay Company. Loreto Bay's master plan calls for 6,000 village-style homes built in pedestrian- friendly neighborhoods in a community design based on the concepts of sustainable development, aimed to protect and enhance the natural, social and economic environment. Loreto Bay Company's focus on sustainability and commitment to long term financial success were instrumental to Citigroup's decision to participate in the venture.

The association of Loreto Bay Company's sustainable development with a financial firm of the caliber and name recognition of Citigroup provides the development with enhanced credibility, in addition to strengthening the Company's financial security. Both companies share the vision of establishing Loreto Bay as a premier destination in Baja Sur. With the nearby Loreto International Airport, daily non-stop flights from Los Angeles on Alaska Airlines and Delta Airlines, travel to Loreto has increased steadily throughout 2005 and 2006. The development, the Inn at Loreto Bay and the surrounding community will benefit significantly from the major commitment to tourism efforts in the region.

About Loreto Bay Company

Loreto Bay Company, headquartered in Scottsdale, Arizona, is developing The Villages of Loreto Bay, a series of seaside villages in walkable neighborhoods built near the historic fishing village of Loreto, Baja California Sur, Mexico. The Villages of Loreto Bay will be a showcase for sustainable development practices. Founded in 2003, the company is led by Chairman David Butterfield, President and CEO Jim Grogan and Partner and COO Tom Nolan. For more news and information, visit www.loretobay.com.

About Citigroup Property Investors

Citigroup Property Investors (CPI) is a global investment manager with offices in New York, London, Los Angeles, Shanghai and Hong Kong, and a presence in Mumbai. With nearly $10 billion in assets under management, CPI invests across both private and public markets with dedicated teams in North America, Europe and Asia. CPI's strength is defined by its research-driven investment strategies, capital market sensitivity and exceptional investment sourcing and execution capabilities. CPI is the real estate investment center of Citigroup Alternative Investments, which brings together Citigroup's broad expertise to create a single platform for the management, development and marketing of alternative investments to institutional and high net worth investors. Citigroup's proprietary capital is used to seed, and co-invest with, investors in CPI's real estate investment funds.

CONTACTS: Stacey Boltz, Loreto Bay Company, 480.443.8350 or

Sara Garibaldi, Edelman, 212-704-4556

Loreto Bay Company
CONTACT: Stacey Boltz, Loreto Bay Company, +1-480-443-8350; or Sara
Garibaldi, Edelman, +1-212-704-4556

Web site: http://www.loretobay.com/

--------------------------------------------------------------------

:fire:

Gee, caliber & name recognition. That's what excites me!!!!!!! :fire:

Hey, drop these gals a line. :dudette:

What happened to need growth capital from Citigroup? GULP!

wilderone - 3-9-2007 at 09:43 AM

"They have done the first archaeology dig and found some artefacts;"
Who is “they” – a bulldozer operator? How are they handling these artifacts and a new discovery of ancient habitation? Destroying it? Has INAH been contacted?

"They have a forest of boxed trees for replanting at Aqua Viva following plant material removal; "
After destroying the native plants, they’re replacing them. Well, how thoughtful. What are they replacing them with - Non-native species?

"They have built a new home for the local bat population (previously lived in a Fonatur unfinished convention centre);"
Oh, please.

"Under their Reptile Rescue programme, 101 beasties have been saved in the last 6 weeks."
A Reptile Rescue programme?? Have been “saved” from what? What are they doing with them? This has got to be made up.

THE NONSENSE IS OVERWHELMING – and yes, I criticize – how can you not?

wilderone - 3-9-2007 at 09:50 AM

Someone in Baja, please contact INAH and ask them if they are aware of the archaeological site that LB has found.

CENTRO INAH BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR
AV. 16 DE SEPTIEMBRE No. 152
LA PAZ, BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR (MÉXICO) CP 23000
TEL-FAX 91 (112) 2 73 89

INAH - SAN IGNACIO, B.C.S.
EN EL COMPLEJO MISIONAL
TEL-FAX 91 (115) 4 02 22

David K - 3-9-2007 at 10:47 AM

INAH? If INAH can't keep a farmer from plowing over the mission visiting station of San Juan de Dios way out in nowhere land, how can you hope they will stop a resort bulldozer near a city on the Sea of Cortes?

Crusoe - 3-9-2007 at 03:00 PM

Probably what is very likely to happen is........A dozen or so Citti board members along with some CITI Group CEO.s will form some small umbrella corparations in the U.S.(tax write offs)and get title to some x-amount of houses for free, and sell them later, in two years time or so, and then pocket big sums of tax free cash to deposit in some other foreign acct. in their own personal name, that is not tracable.The right Mexican politico's will also get a small pay-off as well. Happens all the time. You should not be to surprised!! Its called " Win -Win". Is anybody latley kept track of the Salinas familys personal bank accts. in Switzerland. You may be shocked!! But in the mean time...... What will happen to the working people( Who will build schools and hospitals?) and the landscape and the water quality in the Sea Of Cortes. A nice new seweage plant anyone??

LB

tehag - 3-9-2007 at 06:15 PM

Not an apologist for LB nor a pro-development person, but I know some of what folks on this board are saying is incorrect. Venting against developers without a sound basis is not going to add any credibility to the overall arguments.

The archaeologists were here from Mexico as part of the approval process for the LB EIS. They tented an area and sifted for evidence of human habitation. Several months later, LB has still not started dozing that site.

The trees in boxes are natives. In fact, they were boxed in situ, then removed to a large holding area, and are awaiting replanting within LB. Some of them don't look too happy, but earlier in the project vegetation was simply leveled, so maybe some change for the better.

The "rescued animals" do exist, have been removed by a crew of 6 full-time rescuers, and are being liberated in an undisclosed location well out of the path of any immediate earth works.

I don't know where the failure of adobe block thing got started, but as of 8:30 this morning there was still a lot of it being laid. The post and beam building style doesn't much care what you fill the spaces with, the structure isn't sound by virtue of that component. Look at a glass walled skyscraper. Is the glass doing much to hold it up?

Water, power, sewage plants are in LB's plans. The cart is in front of the horse on these in my opinion, but maybe the addition of Citi bucks will make some of it come true in the not too distant future.

LB is still talking a more reasonable game than anything coming from other mega developers whose feet are firmly in the Loreto door. Ensenada Blanca, San Bruno, Pto Escondido are moving forward without anything like LB's sustainable rhetoric, if that is all it is.

It is their civic duty to mitigate problems

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2007 at 01:52 AM

Especially since they really opened the can of worms. All the focus and controversy afforded by the the bulk of attention to them surely eased the effort of expanding by other resorts and deveopments.
But then, they(LBC) wanted all the publicity. The spin givin has been changed. Reduced, compiled, condensed and repackaged into digestable morsels that the public and officials can chew on easily.
It is a common approach methinks. When you think about it maybe Grogan et al said and promised waaaaaay too much in their selling schpiel.(sp?) They should have anticipated the crisis created by brine discharge, the fresh water table intrusion, the fragile ecosystem(s) and the pollution generated by thousands upon thousands of people.
You've made some good observations Tehag.
This project and I suppose the others you mention unavoidably follow the learning curve of building a city in this environment, maybe that will mean a more objective and realistic approach to building "sustainable" projects.
With a focus on WHAT can be tolerated not by just the land and sea but that of the citizens of Loreto and their needs.

Don Alley - 3-10-2007 at 09:59 AM

I've been involved in many, many meetings involving wildlife mitigation, and this effort to relocate animals whose habitat has been destroyed has no value as mitigation, and would not be considered as mitigation by any rational authority. Unspoiled areas already host wildlife at their carrying capacity; adding other individuals has no benefit, and could even be harmful. I suspect the effort really has nothing to do with the reptiles and everything to do with salesmanship and propaganda. More greenwash.

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2007 at 01:17 PM

That's right Don mo greenwash! Since "mitigate" simply means:

"to make less severe or intense"

they will only have to do little to accomplish this. Because they're sooooooo politically correct(not) they use and display their so-called mitigation proudly. I see you use the word specifically for animals. The environment that supports all species of plants and animals can never be replaced by a man-made desert or oasis. Well, maybe in a thousand years, or less depending on when that huge hurricane hits Loreto.

Does planting trees, harbouring wild animals and sifting for remains fall under the umbrella of mitigation? You be the judge.

Personally I've seen developments forced to create alternate wetlands and habitat for species displaced by coastal development. In fact right here in Oregon. I was less than impressed. It's pretty clear that man cannot replicate Mother Nature well. Zoos, parks and man-made wildlife habitats come to mind.

Think of the possibilities tho with enlisting Citigroups. Finger pointing and shifting of blame are expected benefits along with more professional spin-doctors.

I agree Don, mitigate schmitigate. Just keep yer friggin' dozers away!

Would you not agree that IT IS their duty to clean up their mess. I have a hard time believing that their efforts wth the animals will amout to a can of frijoles.

LB

tehag - 3-10-2007 at 04:21 PM

I didn't say animal rescue was any kind of mitigation, I simply stated that it is occurring. As with the other points in my post, I'm not trying to paint any rosy picture, just an accurate one. LB will not go away. Development, either. Ranting from afar and misstating facts are not going to help any actual efforts to encourage real mitigation or responsible planning and developing.

jerry - 3-10-2007 at 08:58 PM

hang in there tehag both sides need to be seen not that your taking sides but facts are facts and bs is bs

Sharksbaja - 3-11-2007 at 01:36 AM

and the bs is????

Paula - 3-11-2007 at 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tehag
Ranting from afar and misstating facts are not going to help any actual efforts to encourage real mitigation or responsible planning and developing.

You paint with a very broad, tarred brush here.

edit: not Paula, this is Don Alley on Paula's laptop, logging in "from afar" in Long Beach Calif.

[Edited on 3-11-2007 by Paula]

jerry - 3-11-2007 at 10:02 AM

sharks everything that is not a fact is b.s; i didnt point any fingers but theres enoff b.s. on both sides to go around
i have a place in loreto and just spent 6 and a half weeks there i do not like whats happening to loreto but i cant blame the people who want to live there
i too think that the hugh developments are going to cause a lot of problems not just for them selves but loreto too
i allso heard all kinds of stuff by the gringos that are b.s its like a snowball down hill just adding bs at it goes bigger and better stories one day its B.S. the next day its a fact to build more B.S. on

Sharksbaja - 3-11-2007 at 01:43 PM

That's right Jerry, there's tons of the stuff around Baja. I just returned a load I received lately. Stinky stuff. :lol:

Gringos should be more careful about the doodoo they spread around. Especially if it compromises your/our existence while being guests in Mexico.

Worldtraveller - 3-11-2007 at 10:33 PM

The following web site http://www.technologyreview.com/microsites/spain/water/
contains a thoughtful article that discusses the negatives and positives of desalination (even hinting that a body like the Sea of Cortes would be different than open ocean). It discusses both the salt brine and the energy consumption issues as well as other matters discussed in this thread.

jerry - 3-12-2007 at 09:13 AM

what?? no naaa sayers here tearing this artical apart??
seems theres always been plenty of people on here readdy to flood this place with negative statments
ok ill start if they will do it?? it can work. now stand back and watch perhaps bite your tounge??

wilderone - 3-12-2007 at 09:39 AM

"Venting against developers without a sound basis is not going to add any credibility to the overall arguments."
Your impugning the "sound basis" without sound basis is feckless.
What everyone has been ranting from afar about is LB"s LACK OF PLANNING, half truths, and promises without substance.
E.g., "By the end of the project we will harvest or produce more potable water than we use."
When is the end of the project? In what manner will they harvest or produce potable water?
Do they have discrete plans?
What they have proven so far, by actions and words, is that they intend to use up the water in aquifer until it is absolutely necessary to start thinking about producing water in another way. But they don't know what, what, why, how, how much, or how many with any certainty and/or approvals.
Therefore, their promise is a lie. They say they will build 6,000 residences for the total project. Does the building of the 6,000th house mark the "end of the project"? And when there are 1,000 homes built, 2,000 homes built, what water source is there? Is the water source "sustainable" now? Why not? Will the water source be "sustainable" when 2,000 homes are built - before the "end of the project"? They say now it will take about 15 years to build the 6,000 homes. They say they've sold 700 homes, and built - how many? - 150 now? They've been building now for 3 years and they've sold 700 homes in 3 years - that leaves 5,300 more homes to sell. If they sell homes at the same pace as the last 3 years, it would take about 24 years to sell them all, not to mention the amount of time it would take to build them all. So when is the "end of the project?" 15 years? 24 years? If they NEVER sell 6,000 homes, is the "end of the project" never going to occur? At what point in the project's ongoing construction, will it become "sustainable"? Using the water in the aquifer is not sustainable. That is a fact. And what about the factual scientific reports on the water situation. They certainly do not comport with LB's promises. What are LB's answers to these reports? Where is the planning to make their promise not a lie? So how is "By the end of the project we will harvest or produce more potable water than we use" not a misstatement, i.e., a lie. Tell me.
And that's just the water issue.
Relocating lizards is a joke: "The "rescued animals" do exist, have been removed by a crew of 6 full-time rescuers, and are being liberated in an undisclosed location well out of the path of any immediate earth works." You gotta be on the LB staff to make a statement like that.

LB Water

bajabeachbabe - 3-12-2007 at 12:49 PM

I found this "interesting" letter buried on LB website:

http://www.loretobay.com/pop/files/pdf/loretobaywaterreport....

FONATUR seems to think there is no water problem!

jerry - 3-12-2007 at 08:17 PM

if i was loreto bay i wouldnt say anything eather it only breeds trouble for them they know there are people out there at will cause them problems any way they can
speculators and sidwalk lawers are cheap and so is there advice
if this project was as sqeeky clean as the white night it would be picked apart

dont get me wrong im not in favor of loreto becoming a tourist trap or develped to the max
anything that is said by a developer is going to be misconstruded good bad or ugly so why would they explane to anyone what?? how?? when? or where to anyone?? they seemed to have explaned good enoff to about 700 people
and taken in a different perspective they can sell them faster then they can built them so there behind?? so their using less water the time span will change on every on every project who knows what will happen next year much less the next 15-24 tecnolagy will fill in most gaps
fear of the unknown drives most negative reactions

and i plan on living a good part of my life in loreto not in loretobay

bancoduo - 3-13-2007 at 07:38 AM

You would love East LA. :lol:

Crusoe - 3-13-2007 at 08:04 AM

Things Are Just Never As They Seem!!!........Beachbabe--That Fonatur document is not at all accurate or true!! It was common knowledge around Loreto a number of years ago, among all locals and snowbirds that a deveolper paid off a Fonatur Official a sum of fifty thousand U.S. dollars to fabricate a mirage of bogus paper work and documents of all sorts, to make every thing look accecptable environmentaly, for the area. The key word here is( and this is what L.B. C. is selling) Sustainablity.... It is a misnomer!!!........All of the Baja Peninsula is a desert. The area on the eastside of The Sierra De La Gigantia from Loreto to San Evaristo is the absolute driest part of this desert. It recieves only a scant 2 to 5 inches of rainfall a year, and it generaly only comes in the summertime.This type of harsh desert climate can only support a very few species. And in places, extreemly small pockets of human population, along with some snakes, lizzards, a small limited native bird poulation, and lots of scorpions. Bottom Line.....The water just does not exist... period..!!The existing underground aquifiers will deplete rapidly.As supposed geoligists/hydroligists/ engineers are never correct in allof their asessments and calculations. Their errors in results they will readily admit to. Last summer in the North part,of Northwest Washington state which is surrounded by rain forest, and recieves over 100 inches of rainfall a year,three small towns went dry(their aquaifers dried up) and water had to be supplied by tanker truck. If I was going to buy any real estate or a house from Loreto Bay Co. I would see if I could include in the purcase contract a clause,that they would agree to pay me, a sum of $100 U.S. each day I was un able to have use of my domestic water supply. Ask yourself?.....Do you think they would agree?