United Nations Official Slams Child Labor in Mexico
The death of a migrant child in the Sinaloa countryside has
prompted a United Nations official to issue a sharp
denunciation of child labor practices in Mexico. In a
Mexico City press conference held this week, Dr. Jorge A.
Bustamante, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the
human rights of migrants, decried the death of David
Salgado Aranda, a 9-year-old indigenous child from Guerrero
state who was run over by a tractor on the edge of a field
near Culiacan, Sinaloa, last January 6. Dr. Bustamante
charged that the accident underscored how Mexico's does not
enforce national and international laws against child
labor.
"The case of David's death is not unique," Dr. Bustamante
contended. "This is an emblematic case of a very serious
problem that involves thousands of children."
Joining the United Nations official in the press conference
were representatives of the Tlachinollan Human Rights
Center of La Montana, a Guerrero-based, non-governmental
organization that is assisting the Salgado family in a
campaign to obtain indemnification for David's survivors.
The group is also calling for the punishment of the parties
responsible for the child's death.
At the time of his death, the young migrant was reportedly
working for the Agricola Paredes farms, an enterprise that
cultivates tomatoes, cucumbers, chile and other products.
According to Tlachinollan, the company is balking at
compensating the Salgado family, using the argument that
David's death occurred on a public road and that there was
no written contract with the victim.
The human rights organization has documented the cases of
12 migrant children who died while employed in the
agricultural harvests of northern Mexican states during
2006. The causes of death were attributed to accidents,
drowning and exposures to agricultural chemicals. "The
tomato that is sold in New York is the product of the blood
of these children and of David," charged Abel Barrera,
Tlachinollan's director. Since the beginning of 2007, two
other migrant children in addition to David Salgado have
died in Mexico and the United States, according to
Tlachinollan.
Besides justice for David Salgado, Tlachinollan is
demanding that Mexico adhere to an appeal by the United
Nations Children's Fund to protect young people from
occupational hazards; establish a monitoring system for
companies that contract agricultural laborers; create a
national program to address the structural causes of
migration; and comply with international agreements that
Mexico has signed in the areas of labor, migrant and youth
rights.
An estimated 50,000 migrants from the indigenous region of
Guerrero known as La Montana, one of the most impoverished
zones of Mexico, travel north every year to work for
Mexican and foreign companies in the harvests of Baja
California, Sonora and Sinaloa states. Many do not have
work contracts or social security coverage. From last
September to December alone, a program of the federal
Ministry of Social Development registered the departure of
about 10,000 migrants from La Montana; minor children under
15 years of age accounted for 46 percent of the departing
migrants. Barrera said that the loss of educational
opportunities is one major consequence of the mass
migration.
The U.N.'s Dr. Bustamante vowed that he will put an
international spotlight on the widespread practice of child
labor in Mexico. "It does not seem right to me that Mexican
authorities presume that they are doing a lot for human
rights when we have the case of David, which shows in a
dramatic way how this is lie," Dr. Bustamante said.
In a separate initiative, meanwhile, the legislative group
of the Mexican Green Party has introduced an initiative in
the Mexican Chamber of Deputies to slap employers that
employ children under 14 with monetary fines and stiff jail
time. Violating businesses would also face closure under
the proposed reform to the federal labor law.
Sources: La Jornada/AFP, February 27, 2007. El Sur,
February 27, 2007. Frontenet.com/Notimex, February 27,
2007. Proceso/Apro/Cimac, February 26, 2007.
Frontera NorteSur (FNS): on-line, U.S.-Mexico border news
Center for Latin American and Border Studies
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, New Mexico
I know it's not the same as field labor but, that isn't the point. The point is that all of the major supermarket chains in Mexico employ kids, as
well as adults, to bag grocerys and are paid only the tips they receive from customers. So, without getting into a conversation to justify this, the
fact is the stores have these kids working and pay them nothing. Does any of this fall into the catagory of child labor abuse or are the well
connected market owners above all this stuff?jimgrms - 3-2-2007 at 12:36 PM
This has nada to do with child labor but as long as i was in The u s navy at the grocery stores on base (commisarys ) the guys bagging the grocerys
were paid only with tips,and to my recolection lots of them were teens
Youthful Employment
MrBillM - 3-2-2007 at 01:13 PM
The kids have to work somewhere. There's only so many opportunities for Windshield Washers. A family has to do what is necessary to put food on the
table.
In past years, it was common for every member of a Farmer's family in the U.S., including kids, to work at bringing in the harvest. IF that practice
has been curtailed, it was a result of changes in the laws and their enforcement, not "Social Awareness".Hook - 3-2-2007 at 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
The kids have to work somewhere. There's only so many opportunities for Windshield Washers. A family has to do what is necessary to put food on the
table.
In past years, it was common for every member of a Farmer's family in the U.S., including kids, to work at bringing in the harvest. IF that practice
has been curtailed, it was a result of changes in the laws and their enforcement, not "Social Awareness".
I agree with Bill. What's the big deal? These kids and their families could be faced with work or starvation. If they are working with the permission
of their parents, let em work.
Accidents will happen. Starvation is no accident.DENNIS - 3-2-2007 at 01:36 PM
Well, like I said, you can try to justify this in many ways. Poverty is what drives them to work for gratuities and those who benefit from free
labor are the employers. Under your premise, Bill, if you keep them poverty stricken, they will work for nothing. This is an unfortunate paradox,
too easily accepted.
In the case of the grocery stores, customer service should be an employers expense covered in the price of their sales and, God knows, they charge
enough to do that but they wont because the buying public with tacit acceptance, as well as the government allow them not to.
Interesting
Baja Bernie - 3-2-2007 at 08:11 PM
When I was growing up in the glorious state of California there didn't seem to be any 'child' labor laws, at least none that were
enforced...............I remember cutting cots ( that is apriots) with the Mexican families around San Jose. You got paid for the tray which was two
foot wide by six foot long. I hated the Mexicans because the whole family, kids from 4 to grandfolks who were 60 sat around their trays and laughed
as they filled the trays as if by magic.............Me, I had to move around the whole thing and the result by the end of the day was that the Mexican
family earned 6 or 8 dollars while I got at the most one dollar. I didn't laugh then . but now I understand...........I think!
Please tell me what is right and fair because I have no clue.
I do hope that all of you reading this post will tip those kids who bag your grocery's in Baja because everything they earn goes into the family pot
to buy the very basics to survival.
I made this post to allow others to understand that surival is a relative term and that us gringos are blessed with having our needs met at a very
high level.............far more than we need.
Hey! I say this partly because I am now on the Nutri-System diet............works............most Mexicans do not need it!DENNIS - 3-2-2007 at 08:36 PM
If the owners of Comercial Mexicana decided that they no longer wanted to pay the nice lady behind the bakery counter and her only reward would be
gratuities, the job would be filled. Mexico has always been a gratuity driven society. If you want better service from any sector, pay extra for
it and you'll get it. It used to be that if you wanted the police to come to your house to investigate a burglary you had to buy their gas. If you
wanted your phone hooked up, you had to find the right person to tip.
What I'm getting at is, if business had their way, they wouldn't pay their help. The customer would......again. Personally, I just get tired of it.
And those kids mentioned above who helped to bring in the family harvest were performing a family function. They weren't going down the street to the
neighbors farm and bringing in his harvest for tips.Skeet/Loreto - 3-3-2007 at 07:43 AM
Good Posts:
Bernie, I too worked next to the Mexicano Family, picking Cotton when I was 5 years old.
Kids need to learn the value of the Work Ethnic when young.
Something that stands out in Texas is the Parent/Child realationship. For instance go to RFD TV and watch the 5 year olds competeing in the "Little
Britches Rodeo"--That is work!
The families I knew in Loreto had some of their Children in the Dump. picking up Cans to be exchanged for Propane, Cleaning fish, helping their
Neighbors with various Tasks.
In my mind, Child Abuse, is allowing your Children to play "Games" on little Machines every minute of the Day!!!!!! For Shame!!
Skeet/Loretolonglegsinlapaz - 3-3-2007 at 08:47 AM
Lencho:
It's been published that those "retirement-age folks" are the people who worked at the La Perla department store & were displaced due to the fire.
The owners guaranteed that all those people would be provided jobs at other Ruffo company businesses.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 08:51 AM
Again, I think my point is being missed, probably because I'm not articulating well.
I'm certainly not against kids, or anybody, working. I collected deposit
bottles when I was young and it wasn't a hobby.
My b-tch is with business, in this case big business, taking advantage of poverty and need to fill a work-force willing to rely on the generosity of
others for their pay. The cerillos [ thanks Larry ] are only one example. The parking lot "security" is another. How about all those folks working
at the gas station..........are they paid? Or the old man who keeps the restroom clean at the swap meet?
Another point before I shut up. All of those youngsters at the supermarket arn't from poor families. I doubt that many come from well-to-do
families but I have known a few of these kids and their families and they are solid middle class. The poor ones probably couldn't afford the white
shirt and tie.
Anyway, it is my firm belief that supermarkets should pay their employees or we should be able to claim them as dependents.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 09:08 AM
La Perla must have been a huge business. Those old folks are bagging grocerys in Ensenada as well, wearing a sad commentary to the humanity of the
store owners.......a small hand written tag that says their only pay is a tip. For a proud, señor citizen, that must be humiliating. It would be
for me.TMW - 3-3-2007 at 09:11 AM
["I do hope that all of you reading this post will tip those kids who bag your grocery's in Baja because everything they earn goes into the family pot
to buy the very basics to survival."]
I did not know this. But I will start tipping them.TMW - 3-3-2007 at 09:18 AM
["My b-tch is with business, in this case big business, taking advantage of poverty and need to fill a work-force willing to rely on the generosity of
others for their pay."]
Dennis, I understand what your saying and agree with it.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 09:23 AM
Thanks TW
I don't know how to use the Quote Box either. Maybe that's a mañana project.flyfishinPam - 3-3-2007 at 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TW
["My b-tch is with business, in this case big business, taking advantage of poverty and need to fill a work-force willing to rely on the generosity of
others for their pay."]
Dennis, I understand what your saying and agree with it.
Dennis I agree with what you are saying too.
I have kids but would never make them work at a young age as it is my responsibility they be fed and cared for. Now my six year old daughter wants to
work and help us out in the store but I do not force her to do so and I would never make our children work instead of go to school. If you can't take
care of your children, don't have any. I also agree that the large businesses are taking advantage of free labor.Skeet/Loreto - 3-3-2007 at 12:33 PM
Dennis; Good Thread.
I do however notice that you attempt to place "Blame" on Big Business. Can you imagine the Poverty if there was no "Big Business to provide the
Jobs.?
Kids who work in Stores for Tips or small Salaries learn how to deal with People on a Daily basis-A valuable Tool in the future.
I know some Children in La Paz who will work at any Job so that they can go to School and Learn English.
Do you know any Kids who would do that in the States??
The more we can teach our Children about Life-The less Dependant they will be on the Govmint in their Adult years.
Skeet/LoretoDENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 02:07 PM
Skeet ---
I appreciate your point but forgive me if I can't buy it. Big business does provide jobs. That and taxes are the benefit to the host community.
Business has an obligation of fairness to its employees and the workers owe an allegiance to their employer. That is the ideal.
When the ideal is violated by the employer, there is repurcussion. That's how unions came to be. Could you imagine the army of Cerrillos voicing a
labor dispute? Probably not, because they actually arn't employees. They're just there working for nothing and can be sent home and replaced on a
whim. They arn't employed there, they just work there.
Yes, absolutely.........I blame any business, big or small, which will occupy a mans time and effort to enhance profit and refuse to
share it with him.
More so do I blame a traditionally silent society for allowing this arrogant profiteering to take place in this day and age. I can see why
restaurants are on a gratuity basis. Service is involved at a personal level. But, pumping the gas which I paid for isn't service. I tip if my
window gets washed.
Do I know of kids who will do odd jobs in the states? Of course, who doesn't. It hasn't yet become a country of shmoos. [ I think that's a Li'l
Abner reference ]
OK.......... That'll do for a while.jerry - 3-3-2007 at 03:16 PM
i grew up with 7 sisters and 3 brothers {yes 11 kids} and a mom and dad on a farm in wisconsin we all worked from the time we could walk we werent
dirtpoor but a long way from being rich and we ate well
my dad and momworked the same way when they were growing up dadhad a 8th grade education and worked his way into the chief development engineer
position at a major crane company and invented the controlled torque converter(yes i can back that up}
when harvest came there were times when we stayed out of school to help
im #6 and all 11 are god fearing productive people no drawing wellfare no druggies no prisoner just people who can take of them selves
i feel my upbringing is a direct cause of my and my siblings moderate success in life
dont get me wrong id wouldnt go back to farming for anything but if did teach me work ethics that allowed me to be self employed since i was27 and
semi retire at 44
no matter what any law says the parents of the kids will decide what the kids will do based on what need to be done for the family unless your
advocating that should be regulated by the goverenment tooSkeet/Loreto - 3-3-2007 at 03:29 PM
Dennis: O.K on your Post, But:
The Unions use Force, Corruption, Featherbedding to Exhort money from their Employer--Not much difference.
The Bad Welfare People refuse to work and get money from the Taxpayer through the Govt.
Dennis, I have never yet received an Answer to my Question, Which is::
WHY SHOULD I , WHO WORKS, BE FORCES TO PAY HALF OF MY EARNINGS TO THOSE THAT DON"T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!
Business still produces Jobs--Jobs produce Wealth for the Workers, now the workers live in Bigger Homes, have two or three Cars, A Gameboy for each
Child etc.
Communism Failed.
Skeet/Loretojerry - 3-3-2007 at 03:34 PM
im with you there skeet i believe that anyone who wants anything can get it if there willing to do what it takes to get it
not get it from some agence who took it from someone elses effortsDENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 05:26 PM
C'mon Skeet-----
What union in the recent past, especially since Regan busted the traffic controlers, has used force and corruption to convey there demands?
Which union has that power?
The unions today can only dictate through numbers as a voting block, used by politicians to win their issues. You might be better served if you asked
yourself why a large portion of your taxes are spent in Iraq.
Tell me Skeet ......... Is it better to buy bombs which fall on a lost cause or spend money helping your neighbor?
You never paid half your earnings to welfare. If you did, somebody owes you a lot of money. Why would you say that?
You're right. Business produces jobs. But what good is a job if the employer doesn't pay?
And, these people holding these "jobs" at the markets who have to wear these explainations on their chest--------- Where is the fine line between
asking for tips and begging?
Human decency demands an answer.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 06:08 PM
Larry --------
Yeah, I tip them, which in my understanding, makes them my employee because nobody else pays them.
How can you question the validity of any economy which thrives on the premiss of,"an equal days pay for an equal days work" ?
The Cerrillo system, as you put it, should be an admirable adventure of the employer, not the customer or the kid.
Is, as you say, hiring an unskilled worker such a risk to the employer? What is the risk? Do the Maquiladoras hire on that method? Work here for
tips because you may be a risk? Do Cerrillos deserve less respect than they?
I dont think so.
Again, I believe you are loseing my point. It isn't the learning apprenticeship that concerns me. It is the un-paid aspect of it that does.
Also may I add, they arn't unskilled as you put it. They are doing exactly as they have been taught to do. Basic for sure but, experts in their
young minds.
The guys stocking shelves will probably remember their days of working for nothing and swell with pride on their recollection of the day when their
employer finally decided they were worth something. That had to be a proud moment for both of them.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 06:37 PM
They work for tips. Do you have to call corporate for an explaination?
The store doesn't pay them.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 06:52 PM
I dont care how much they're making, Larry. The company they're working for doesn't pay them. Doesn't that mean anything to you?
Dennis
Baja Bernie - 3-3-2007 at 06:58 PM
I agree with your sentiment but what they do is far better than begging at the border. The 'tips' they make do have a positive impact on their
family's ability cope and they are not digging trash at the dumps.
A lot of us old guys worked at jobs that would now be considered violations of child labor laws...........and we were very happy to do that work. It
taught us responsiblity and made us think we were worth something............The younger generation in most first world countries should be as lucky
as we were when we were 'allowed' to work................Mexico is interesting because many of the managers of small businesses are all of 15 years
old and they know what they are about....and we have children of 35 still living at home.............I vote for Mexico.
And I hope that some of the younger members of the board realize just what that quarter means to the kid that bagged your groceries.
At least the post generated some converation and perhaps it increased understanding of the subject.DENNIS - 3-3-2007 at 07:27 PM
Thanks Bernie, I appreciate that........
Dont take this wrong but I think you are also missing my point. Allow me to try for clarification before I give up.
I understand child labor.
I understand that a child of five may be asked to shovel mounds of cow-crap to earn a few pennys.
I understand that a kid of seven can stand at the entrance of a steelmill during the war selling daily papers.
I understand delivering papers on my bicycle in the dark of night during driving rains.
I understand pinching pennys from the church collection plate because I didn't have anything.
I understand my mother putting newspaper in my shoes to keep the road from chilling my feet.
I understand being told by my parents, strong Catholics, that we wouldn't have dinner that night because we were "fasting" for God.
What I never heard from my parents was that I should expect anything from anybody else. If rocks and twigs were on the plate, that's what we got.
Im the first one to help those in need. The store owners should see it through our eyes.Skeet/Loreto - 3-4-2007 at 08:53 AM
Dennis: Please let us not go into the Iraq War. I am a Korean Vet who supports my Goverment and President.
I wish that you could have spend the past 40 years in Baja Sur, think you would realize the following;
Survival of the Fitest.
Skeet/Loretojerry - 3-4-2007 at 09:46 AM
Dennis are you saying that every city should be paying the panhandelers because there giving them the oppertunity to put up a sign and beg for a
living?? perhaps all the street walkers should be on the citys payroll too?? LOL NOTDENNIS - 3-4-2007 at 10:12 AM
If the governments had it together, there wouldn,t be panhandelers on either side of the border.
As for the streetwalkers, at least the ones that walk in and out of Anthony's in Ensenada, they don't need subsidy of any kind.Skeet/Loreto - 3-4-2007 at 11:21 AM
Dennis:
The many, many workers in the States are Mexicanos; They do many of the jobs that Americanos will not undertake_ Construction-Landscraping- Field
work- Dairy Work etc.
Those good workers were once "Kids" in Mexico. Where did they develop that Work Ethic??? Did they at one time work a CCC for Tips?
Did they Pick Cotton in the fields at Constitution along with their Parents? Did they do the Hard Work at the many Ejidos?
I think that you have to Admit that those that put out the Effort, are trained Responsible in their Kid years, are the ones who will Survive.
In my Opinion the Kids of today that spend their time being Spoiled by the IPODS and Gameboys are being Abused by their Parents. Many will grow up and
be Drags on the Future Generation.
When I need someone to Work for me I always go look for a Mexicano, when I rent a House I look for the Mexicano Family--Why??
Because I have found that their Work Ethic is much better than many Americanos.
The Kids of Baja will do much better than their Counterpart in the States in the next 50 years so relax and see if you can find some Union Kids that
can keep up the Pace.
Skeet/LoretoDENNIS - 3-4-2007 at 11:42 AM
Skeet ---
OK. I agree....again. They develop a wonderful work ethic. So, whats that got to do with the stores working them for nothing because the kids and
their families may be desperate enough to hope that store customers will add to the high price of grocerys by giving them a tip? It isn't the kids or
the older folks who put themselves in this position that bothers me. It's the stores that have developed an insidious method to get people to work
for nothing that has my attention. You folks keep going back to the kids and what they gain from working........earning money and developing
character. I couldn't agree more. But what developed the character of a person who will work the young and the old without paying them?Dave - 3-4-2007 at 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
They work for tips. Do you have to call corporate for an explaination?
The store doesn't pay them.
Maybe they only work for tips because it's illegal for the stores to actually hire them. DENNIS - 3-4-2007 at 06:52 PM
Dave ----
Think that's it? Well, lets look at that. If it's illegal to hire kids it would have to be for child protection reasons and laws pertaining to
child labor.
That being the case, the stores are in violation of these protective laws because, even they couldn't deny the fact that the kids do work in the
stores.
So, what we end up with is an employer who works children illegally, with impunity and.......without pay. The plot thickens.DENNIS - 3-4-2007 at 06:55 PM
Forgot to mention those advanced age cerillos. Perhaps there's a law that says they're too old to receive pay......
[Edited on 3-5-2007 by DENNIS]Dave - 3-4-2007 at 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Dave ----
Think that's it?
At least one of the reasons.
I was being facetious. I'm an employer in Mexico so I am somewhat familiar with the labor laws. DENNIS - 3-4-2007 at 08:30 PM
Dave ---
Im sure it's not as cut and dried as I would prefer to think. I knew you were being facetious when you began your sentence with, " Maybe."
Larry -----
No. Havn't interviewed anybody. Just by talking about it, Im probably guilty of practicing law without a license. I look forward to hearing what
you learn. By the way, airspace is free and abundant.Skeet/Loreto - 3-6-2007 at 07:36 AM
Dennis: To go back to your original Post--
What is your Solution--????
Skeet/LoretoDENNIS - 3-6-2007 at 08:30 AM
The stores should pay people who work for them. That can't be considered unreasonable.David K - 3-6-2007 at 08:34 AM
Dennis, yes... if they work FOR the stores... Perhaps they are independent contractors? Also, is anyone forcing them to do the work or are they there
because it is their own free choice to be?
Sorry if this has been answered previously, because I read the thread fairly quickly and could have missed it. Of course, you wouldn't be restating
your point if it had been answered, I guess?DENNIS - 3-6-2007 at 08:43 AM
David ---
Their motive for working for tips has been covered and I doubt anyone wants to hear me rant about more than I have.
But, c'mon, just by calling eight year old kids "independent contractors", doesn't negate the fact that they are solicited, screened and given a
dress code by the store prior to doing their assigned tasks.
They work for the store and this "work for tips" crap is getting out of hand in Mexico. What is worse than an unfair wage? No wage at all.David K - 3-6-2007 at 09:02 AM
Dennis, sounds like an internal Mexican affair... What business do we foreignors have in Mexican law, if that's what you are trying to affect here?
You can put the facts out for us to read, then it is up to us to proceed or not with tipping or ignoring the stores that have uniformed box boys that
are not paid wages.
I am wondering if the stores are forced to not have box boys work for just tips anymore, then doesn't that leave them only to do dirtier work, like
picking produce or juggling balls along the border?
Thanks for your information, by-the-way!Dave - 3-6-2007 at 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I am wondering if the stores are forced to not have box boys work for just tips anymore, then doesn't that leave them only to do dirtier work, like
picking produce or juggling balls along the border?
Normally, DK and I don't agree but:
These kids are putting groceries into sacks. Others are working as field hands, in sweat shops or sexual slavery.
You've got to pick your battles.DENNIS - 3-6-2007 at 12:08 PM
Dave / DK --------
Would you allow your eight year old kids to work at Vons or Albertsons, filling a position that is an integral part of the grocery industry, for tips
only?
And please, lets save all the "character building" aspects of free adolescent labor for another conversation.
David ----- Im trying to affect an opinion. If it's contrary to Mexican law, that's too bad. Who here hasn't disagreed with Mexican law at one
time or another? Besides, what law could possibly state that it's acceptible to hire kids and not pay them? If anything it's the absence of a law
which prohibits this practice.Dave - 3-6-2007 at 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Dave / DK --------
Would you allow your eight year old kids to work at Vons or Albertsons, filling a position that is an integral part of the grocery industry,
for tips only?
No, not for tips or salary and I'm not defending the practice either.
BTW, it ain't an integral part of the grocery industry...not anymore. If the kids went away the customers would take their place.
(And probably save the stores zillions on the cost of plastic bags. )DENNIS - 3-6-2007 at 01:56 PM
Dave ---
I say it is still a part of the industry and will continue to be as long as customer service is an aspect of competition, although we may see the day
when it wont be. Home Depot has customer operated check out stations.
You mentioned the other day that you are an employer in Mexico, which I knew. I'm assuming yours is a reference to your deli. Do you pay your
employees or leave that detail to your customers by way of a large tip jar on the counter?Skeet/Loreto - 3-7-2007 at 07:34 AM
Dennis:
Do you not know that UNIONS are a large part of the problems in Mexico????
SkeetDENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 07:40 AM
Skeet ------
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the problems which they've caused in the U.S.
What does that have to do with this discussion?Dave - 3-7-2007 at 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Skeet ------
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the problems which they've caused in the U.S. What does that have to do with this discussion?
The unions are complicit.
I pay my employees, well. I also pay for emergency medical attention and books and clothing for their kids.
I pay and pay and pay...Iflyfish - 3-7-2007 at 09:35 AM
A most interesting dialogue indeed.
All societies must sort out the issue of who owns the resources, means of production and how wealth is aquired and distributed.
The inherant flaw of Capitalism or in the case of Mexico, Feudalism, is that wealth accrues to a few. Without a way to redistribute this wealth,
object poverty is the result. Recall the Great Depression in the USofA when millions of good, honest, Christian, hard working people were
impoverished, due to no fault of their own. There simply were not enough jobs to go around. The Federal Government eventually needed to become
involved to create jobs for people. In part this was accomplished by the work necessary to produce the arms for WWII.
The Chinese before the Communist revolution is an excellent example of the results of unbridled Capitalism. The Chinese were so good at it that their
society became so striated that the bottom had no where to go but to rebel. This also happened in the USofA during the time of the Trusts.
Without countervailing forces, i.e. labor unions, political parties, rebel groups, etc. there is no incentive for Capitalists to redistribute the
wealth. They often maintain attitudes like "I earned it, I am virtuous because I have wealth" untill the gates are torn down. As Marie Antoinette
said of the impoverished French, when informed that he people had no bread, "let them eat cake" As Barbara Bush said of those refuges of Katrina in
the arena in Houston, I do not have the exact quote, but it was someting like "they love it here, it is better than what they had at home".
The inherant flaw of Socialism, or Communism, is that incentive to produce and innovate is lost. If everything is provided for you, there is no need
to husstle and innovate.
If Feudalism or Capitalism has its way, unbridled, you see conditions such as you see in Mexico. These are the conditions that existed in the USofA
prior to child labor laws and the existance of unions.
There is a reason that there currently are "two presidents" in Mexico. The perminant underclass in Mexico occasionally emerge to assert their needs,
often it occurs in the form of revolution, when conditions become bad enough. Mexico eventually evicted the Catholic Church and overthrew their
government as a result of the inequety of how wealth was accrued by few and the needs of the majority were ignored. The current President of Mexico
won by a razor thin majority in an election that many contest.
Many countries in Latin America, whose people have for too long been on the short end of the economic stick, are turning to Socialist political
candidates who challenge the current economic structure where the means of production as well as the natural resources are owned by individuals.
Feudal Families or Capitalists who do not address the needs of society for redistribution of wealth, do so at their own peril.
IflyfishDENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 11:53 AM
Iflyfish ---
Good comments. I realize todays problems have a long history and in many ways, resist modernization. That's the power and the greed at work.
It's hard to reason with a handful of people who have all the money.DENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 11:56 AM
Dave ------
Good.
Pay.
That's what you're supposed to do.Barry A. - 3-7-2007 at 12:35 PM
Capitolism, the best economic system yet devised, only works when the "capitolists" provide fair pay and benefits for a fair days work, within reason
(and that is the tricky part).
To do otherwise is short sighted and foolish. In that sense I completely agree with Iflyfish.
Anybody (yes ANYBODY) can grow rich in this country-----they just have to pay attention, learn, and make the right moves based on what they have
learned, and their particular talents-----but it takes time, work, and patience. Once rich, or well-off, they need to figure out how to help others
achieve the same status-----and many do. We are all in this together, period.
Exploitation of any "class" of people is foolish, and short-sighted, as it will come back and "bite you" eventually.
barryDavid K - 3-7-2007 at 12:40 PM
Ditto to what Barry said !DENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 02:12 PM
Barry -------
So......... Can I assume that you agree with me, that the grocery stores should pay their employees?
David ----
You won't agree with me on anything. Fine. Who needs it.
Dennis-----
Barry A. - 3-7-2007 at 02:42 PM
----Yes, generally speaking, I agree that Groceries SHOULD pay their employees, at all levels. I was a bag-boy at age 14 in a small Grocery, and I
certainly was paid, tho at a very minimum wage. No way would I have consented to work for tips. I also was a delivery boy for a Liquor Store (prior
to any law against that) and they also paid me a "wage", but the tips were much more than the "wage", making the whole enterprise very profitable
(relatively speaking) for me.
However, it all depends on what the employees and groceries "terms of employment" were/are as to what they will be paid, or even "if" they will be
paid.
My statement above is simply what I think "should" happen (if all are thinking clearly), not necessarily what "will" happen.David K - 3-7-2007 at 06:07 PM
Dennis, please tell me on which point you say I am disagreeing?
1) It's none of our business, as foreignors
2) Working for tips (by choice) in a store beats begging on the streets
3) Communisim and socialism are failed sysytems that rob a people of opportunity and freedom
Maybe Barry was clearer than you without any hidden agendas. If you and Barry see eye to eye on what Barry typed, then that means you and I also see
eye to eye...
Now, no need to call me names or make false statements about me because I questioned your post... It's all about learning, afterall.
By the way, please provide some evidence with how you get that I am a 'butt-lick' of the Mexican goverment! That's outrageous and pretty gross amigo!
The Mexican government is a LONG way from meeting my idea of a good government...jorgie - 3-7-2007 at 06:20 PM
thanks all but you do realize the thread concerns Mexico. Never open the store until the shelves are stocked.bajabound2005 - 3-7-2007 at 07:18 PM
Wow! What if these kids actually went to SCHOOL and learned something other than bagging groceries or picking fruits and vegetables? Than they could
support their families in high style! As for the older folk bagging groceries - we've found most of them to be fluent in English AND Spanish.
Probably spent a lot of time in the EUA and retired; picking up a little "pin money" here in Baja.
Oh, I didn't see any mention of all the guys in the parking lots who only work for tips -- our "guy" at Costco -- we seek him out and vice versa; he
is trying SO hard to learn some English. So every time he asks us the English word for everything he puts into the car -- and a few pleasantries as
well. We all have fun teaching each other. He's definitely trying to improve himself; we tip him generously.
As for Unions.....(well, I gave them the courtesy of capitalizing the word....)Osprey - 3-7-2007 at 07:52 PM
I've been following this thread a while. I was upset, at first, to learn that I needed Dennis to be my moral co-pilot while in Mexico but soon I
began to see things his way. It's all about the big corporations, not the little guys so now when I encounter the "the little match guys" (young or
old) I don't tip em and I push em out of the way -- just my way of showing them how to resist, how to rise above (as Dennis showed us). We thank you
Dennis, I'm sure they thank you too.
WTF???
Dave - 3-7-2007 at 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
You and your buddy Dave should humble yourselves.
I'm not your opponent here. Go back and reread my posts.
What we should be discussing is not whether these kids should be tipped/paid but the fact that they are WORKING.
It's against Mexican law. The minimum age is fourteen, period. It's in the friggin' constitution.jerry - 3-7-2007 at 09:07 PM
well dennis now that your finished jawing i still think your opinion is wrong and i think mexico should be able to decide for mexico no need for us
greengo to screw it up like we did in the USADENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 09:12 PM
Dave ---
I didn't get from all your posts that you weren't my opponent. I got from none of your posts that you were my ally. I seem to be hearing more
supportive opinions now. I wont back down on this.
I agree with your analysis whole-heartedly....Why are they working? That's a philosophical question. Economic as well, for sure.
My question remains as it was when this started....Why can the stores work anybody without paying them?
By the way... Mexico changes their constitution more often than we change our shorts.jerry - 3-7-2007 at 09:48 PM
dennis you said you were done jawing about it so are you a man of your word
in my opinion liberals like you have made a mess of the USA mexico doesnt need your help
repeating your self over and over will not change anyones mind
it makes me thing of some old saying about a empty barrell??
and some people like to hear there head rattlebajaguy - 3-7-2007 at 09:48 PM
It seemed to me that they were bagging groceries after school....is that NOT the case???DENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 10:22 PM
C'mon Larry..............
You know you twisted that out of shape.DENNIS - 3-7-2007 at 10:29 PM
jerry ==========
If I'm a liberal....... you're a Rhodes Scholar
Pretty clear to me
Sharksbaja - 3-8-2007 at 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Why can the stores work anybody without paying them?
Because they can???
Why else??
(Betta late than never.:rolleyes
Article 123-A-III
Dave - 3-8-2007 at 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
It's against Mexican law. The minimum age is fourteen, period. It's in the friggin' constitution.
Oh, oh-- looks like we may have a fact here. Happen to know the article?
--Larry
Skeet/Loreto - 3-8-2007 at 08:38 AM
Dennis:
You are evading my Question like Houdini:
Why should I who work and save my money give Half of my Wealth to those that will not Work.???
For Love
For Hate
For Safety-
Or just because in you OPINION , I should work my Butt off so that you can Change the World to your Twisted Ideas of what you think is RIGHT???
SkeetDENNIS - 3-8-2007 at 08:46 AM
You shouldn't. If I had my way, I would abolish welfare.
Where are you getting any idea that I would support a welfare state? What have I said that would lead you to believe this?
When did "welfare" creep into this conversation?
Was it when I suggested that people who work should be paid by the person who hires them?
C'mon Skeet .........You can do better than that.tripledigitken - 3-8-2007 at 09:38 AM
This is a great thread. Keep it going!!
Some of the comments remind me of a Marxist History Professor I had in college.
I expect that some will be quite happy with Hillary as President with her "redistribution of wealth".
I hope you're not counting on Social Security to pay for your Pacificos while in Baja!Dave - 3-8-2007 at 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Which explains something I ran into repeatedly in the stuff I saw on the web; that many companies only "hire" cerillos in the age span of 14 to 16
years, and once they reach 16 they have to move on and make room for the newcomers.
Thanks-- Larry
With regard to the young bag boys/girls I think you're seeing a pre-cerillo program and here's how I think it works:
A large majority of the parents of these kids either work for the stores or are tight with union bosses.
Since the States are responsible for enforcing labor law and typically surrender this responsibility to unions, the unions can do whatever they want.
Store owners love it because they don't have to pay wages or benefits (illegal anyway) and are shielded by unions from government interference. (I
would also guess that these are white unions.)
These are plum jobs for the kids/familes. Extra (nontraceable/taxable) income and a fast track to cerillo and beyond.
Well said
Dave - 3-8-2007 at 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Jorge
When you buy foods produced in Mexico you buy foods produced in a country whose government makes no effort to promote education as a means to an end,
only a government which promotes the end of education in the 6th grade.
jerry - 3-8-2007 at 10:56 AM
yea right lets boycot everything from mexico and starve the poor bastereds to death
that way they will have the revolution that we think they should have and be as f*cked up as the USA
who the hell apointed the gringo to decide what mexico should be like??
PLEASE LET MEXICO ALONE
At the risk of catching everybodies wrath-----
Barry A. - 3-8-2007 at 01:10 PM
-------For the first 20 years, or so, in the 50's and 60's and 70's, when I was visiting Baja very often out of San Diego, the "appeal" of Baja was
it's natural primitiveness, it's wonderful "happy" people both on the coast and inland on the ranchos, and it's totally "unspoiled" Mexican
atmosphere!!
It never occurred to me to LIVE there----it was just such a wonderful place to "unwind", and camp and explore to my hearts content.
Then development started, mainly spurred on by Gringos, which brought in Mainland Mexican's for the supposed "opportunities" the development promised
and, of course more Gringo's-----like a very slow moving snowball!!
I repeat: 50 years ago it seemed to me that the Baja people by and large were pretty darn happy, and lived within their means, using what they had to
survive, but again, very HAPPY!!!
Do you really think that our "spending money" down there has helped the people???? Maybe so, but I wonder!!!!!
Barryvandenberg - 3-8-2007 at 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
I hope you're not counting on Social Security to pay for your Pacificos while in Baja!
That's the specific part of my income we keep for PacificosOsprey - 3-8-2007 at 02:38 PM
Larry, I did some checking around myself about the cerillos and I found out that some of the big stores in Cabo and San Jose charge the kids to work
there. I heard it was 50 pesos a day (they take the money from the kids at the end of each shift) and if a kid cannot pay, he doesn't work the next
day. Kinda like old time dock workers in the U.S.Skeet/Loreto - 3-8-2007 at 04:14 PM
Barry A; Good Words.
When I arrived in Loreto in Oct. 1968 Imet and observed people with nothing but a cardboard shack around them, Happy good Natured, hard working,
Smiling and lliving the good Life--so to Speak?
I fell in love with the People and their ways, the Sea of cortez etc.
I decided to move and live there for that reason. Later, in the past 10 years or so the "newbies" started arriving-those that wanted to change the
Mexicano to their Way of Life.
Building big houses on the Beach then closing off the Beach to the Mexicano People--Bringing in DOPE, DEMANDING SERVICES, NUDITY{ The Nude beach at
the old Presidente Hotel}, and many other ways of life from the States
I will say again that I think many of those "Kids working the Fields of Baja and the Stores, will grow up to out do many of the Kids in the States
I met and knew many more Baja People with no money who had CHARACTER something that is missing among some of the people of the States.
Dennis, if you are to Judge, remember that CHARACTER is much more important than Wealth.
Skeet/LoretoDENNIS - 3-8-2007 at 04:22 PM
I'll remember that and pass it on to the next homeless person I see.
Don't suppose you could back that up?
Dave - 3-8-2007 at 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Larry, I did some checking around myself about the cerillos and I found out that some of the big stores in Cabo and San Jose charge the kids to work
there. I heard it was 50 pesos a day (they take the money from the kids at the end of each shift) and if a kid cannot pay, he doesn't work the next
day. Kinda like old time dock workers in the U.S.
Not that I'd be surprised but to get someone to admit to it...
Big stores? Like Costco, Walmart, Home Depot?
Jeez...sleezeballs.
Wish the world press could get hold of this.DENNIS - 3-8-2007 at 05:10 PM
Dave ---
Good idea. Be sure to tell the world press that these kids are building their character and developing a stellar work ethic while their employer is
extorting them.
[Edited on 3-9-2007 by DENNIS]jerry - 3-8-2007 at 08:49 PM
i dought that the stores are extorting the kid if its happening at all it is isolated by a employ but most likly drumedup by people on this fourm so
they can feel important saving the victumsDavid K - 3-8-2007 at 08:57 PM
You know, I would like to hear from a Mexican national Baja Nomad regarding what they think about stores letting kids work for tips bagging
groceries... Such as, is it considered okay in their society as a way to earn some money, stay out of trouble, build character or are the youngsters
being exploited by the grocery stores?
Ferna, Antonio, Jesse... ???DENNIS - 3-9-2007 at 07:41 AM
David ---
I agree. We need the full perspective.
Jesse .... Drop that frog leg and give us some input.Skeet/Loreto - 3-9-2007 at 07:59 AM
Dennis: If you are of the Mindset, log on to the Amarillo Globe News and read about "Homeless Mary".
Mary has been around an Intersection, pusching a Cart for Years. All attempts by the "Do Gooder" people have failed. She is a rough talking old gal
that is living her life as she wants!
From your Posts I am beginning to see that you are still in the BOX.
What you need to realize is that in most case there are Two Sides of the Picture.
Try to open your eyes and Mind , be creative in your Thoughts, start thinking "I am not always RIGHT!!
stop blaming, do something about it!!
Like go down to the Store and march in front with a Big Sign, Protesting the failure of the Stores to Pay the Baggers.
You really need to get out off that BOX !!!!
Skeetfdt - 3-9-2007 at 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
You know, I would like to hear from a Mexican national Baja Nomad regarding what they think about stores letting kids work for tips bagging
groceries... Such as, is it considered okay in their society as a way to earn some money, stay out of trouble, build character or are the youngsters
being exploited by the grocery stores?
Ferna, Antonio, Jesse... ???
To answer simply and honestly;
you ask #1.-"is it considered okay in their society as a way to earn some money, stay out of trouble, build character " YES
#2.-"are the youngsters being exploited by the grocery stores?"
NO
nfmfdt - 3-9-2007 at 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
It seemed to me that they were bagging groceries after school....is that NOT the case???
yesCrusoe - 3-9-2007 at 09:12 AM
Soooooooo.......To really stir up this issue.....Where do you draw the line??........Last year while sitting and having some beers in a bar in
downtown Cabo del San Jose we met a group of 5 big fat old rednecks from the Redding, Ca. area who were on a vacation to sample under age mexican
girls in th Cabo area which they claimed their was an abundance of. I got into a moral argument with a couple of them and their ansewer was they were
economicaly helping these young kids!!!! Good God!!!MrsFDT - 3-9-2007 at 09:49 AM
I think that kids bagging groceries at a local supermarket and soliciting sex from underage girls are two differant issues.....
As an American woman and mother, living in Tijuana, Im infronted with this issue everytime I go buy groceries. And yes I do think about those kids
(and old folks) who are there bagging for only Tips. But my thoughts about it are not what you might think.
I dont feel sad or bad for them being forced to do this. In fact they are not forced at all (out of poverty or necessity). My thought on this is,
while Im walking out the door with my cart, I look over at my thirteen year old son and casually say, "Honey, why dont you do that?"
Why would I say that? Because my son would spend 12 hours a day on his Nintendo, if I let him. I dont think I am much differant from any other decent
mother out there, including those who have children bagging. I see that kid bagging for tips and think how responsable of him. How driven he will
learn to be, If he is here than he's not out there, painting up some wall. It's not an issue of exploitation, it's a tool for structure and ethic.
I am glad that I live in a place where the society is not blinded and bogged by petty rules. Rules that in some places have a citizen so strapped down
he doesnt even have the freedom to build what he likes on his own property. (HOA, but again thats another story)
I would encourage my son to bag groceries for tips only and thank the store chain for allowing me the opportunity to help train and shape my son in a
real life situation, So he can be better prepared for what lies ahead in his life.
The whole program is designed for this. By the way only the children who have the best grades are given the opportunity to enter this program. (I dont
know about the old folks thats only been over the last few years) It's considered a reward to make extra cash not exploitation.
So next time you go through the line and some little dark skinned kid puts your milk or beer in a bag, remember he worked hard for the opportunity to
get your tip. Tip him well, he may even someday learn the value of a dollar and start his own business within his country of origen, rather than
invade yours. This is a comment not directed at most people on this board. But it's my opinion none the less.David K - 3-9-2007 at 10:19 AM
Thank you Ferna and Mrs. Ferna... Dennis, are you reading this?DENNIS - 3-9-2007 at 10:23 AM
Yeah, I read it. It's just an echo of what many of you have been saying for days.
What? Just because it's said by a Mexican means I'm wrong? You're getting pretty close to those boots again, David.fdt - 3-9-2007 at 10:29 AM
I think you did'nt read what she wrote "As an American woman and mother, living in Tijuana". She's born and raised USofA.David K - 3-9-2007 at 10:42 AM
Dennis, I understand your feelings about this... Sure, if someone is going to work for a store, to (most of) us the store should put them on the
payroll.
However, this is Mexico and one thing I have learned is that there is a RIGHT WAY to do something, a WRONG WAY, and a MEXICAN WAY!
The Mexican Way is neither right or wrong, it's just their way of doing it!
Before this thing eats you up, perhaps just relax and accept the Mexican Way...
I hear this all the time...
Dave - 3-9-2007 at 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
However, this is Mexico and one thing I have learned is that there is a RIGHT WAY to do something, a WRONG WAY, and a MEXICAN WAY!
The Mexican Way is neither right or wrong, it's just their way of doing it!
and it's PC bulls**t.
Mexicans, like all other people, do things the RIGHT and WRONG way.
I agree with David K---------(I think?)
Barry A. - 3-9-2007 at 01:03 PM
------unless we are Mexican, or have lived there for a very long time outside a Gringo enclave, how can we possible understand the "Mexican Way", and
why in the world would we presume to be able to tell them how they should do anything? (unless they ask)
For very complex reasons, trying to tell Mexican's (or anybody, for that matter) how to do something is destined to probable failure---------it is
just human nature to react this way, and it ain't going to change anytime soon.
For instance, there is NO WAY you will ever convince me that "Unions" do more good, than bad-------and many have tried------and it goes on, and on,
and on---------some things we just "believe" in, period, and are products of our own personal experiences and observations.
BarryDavid K - 3-9-2007 at 01:55 PM
Dave, I think you have a different exposure than do I with that phrase...
The Right and Wrong Way are 'American' ways at solving a problem... The Mexican Way is a way that WORKS (ie. the Right Way for a Mexican). It is just
NOT the way we gringos would do it.
I see it all the time working with Mexicans, up here.
I didn't mean it as anything PC... It is a way to respect the Mexicans in that they have their own way to do something that is different from our way.
The Mexican Way is a good thing, and teaches us gringos another way to solve a problem!DENNIS - 3-9-2007 at 03:55 PM
Fdt -----
I saw your post as well and you are the Mexican I referred to. As for your wife, how long could a person live in Tijuana without thinking like a
Mexican? Not long, I'm sure.
I agree with your assesment of "right -- wrong -- Mexican." We see that at the border every day.
"Sí señor, gringolandia has laws and we are breaking their laws but, that's OK because we're Mexicans."
I'm not trying to change the direction of this thread, [ after all, it is Bernies ] but trying to make a defensibile point.
David ----
I accept the Mexican way. I always have because that's the way it is. But, I don't have to agree with it........or you. I've never, contrary to
some here, advocated any action to illustrate my point. That would be ridiculous as well as futile and illegal.
My point remains intact.
A small, rich segment of society which has, by design, created a hungry class, then proceeds to exploit the young and old of that class by
offering them labor which may, or may not, be compensated for, is in my estimation, wrong.....to say the least.
That the kids and older folks do the work is admirable. They, especially the young, are rewarded in many ways but, not by their employer who is
protected by legislation or tacit approval and, in my world eyes is an abuse of power dressed in humanitarian clothes.
And David, if being the ideal guest in a country is what tunes your moral compass, you're lost. There's more to life than the Mexican way. There's
the human way as well.
What's more important to you? Don't bother..........I know.
Barry ----
Unions suck. They had their day and place. That place is gone.
I would never tell anybody how to run their business, especially Mexico. But, neither Mexicans or anybody else here will tell me how I will
perceive what I see.
Throughout this thread, people have suggested that I don't have a clear understanding of Mexico. Oh God, do I agree with that. But, they went
on to instruct me toward a better understanding of Mexico and, with most of them, I disagree.
If anybody here thinks that my premiss was wrong, well, all I can say is, "shame on you for lack of human decency."
Dang
Baja Bernie - 3-9-2007 at 04:40 PM
As Dennis did point out I started this post and I have followed it very closely but I did NOT wish to jump in until now.
I have to say that I agree with Mrs. FDT 1,000%. I also agree with what Dennis is trying to say even though I do not believe allowing kids to bag
groceries for tips is bad.
The exchange of ideas has progressed in a basically positive track even though it did not really follow my beginning thread. I learned a long time ago
that thinking with ‘feelings’ can be a very positive thing…………this, along with so many other ‘feeling’ things was taught to me by my Mexican friends.
I am fairly sure that the majority of you have been exposed to the same approach from your years in Baja. That is what I have attempted to do here.
I do believe that it is a far cry to speak of an 8 year old kid getting run over and killed by a farm tractor and a kid bagging stuff for tips.
I have cared about David K for a long time and I am, more and more coming to appreciate Dennis’ feelings about Baja things even though I often do not
share his views. I know that I have just fallen in love with another mans wife because of her thoughts expressed so well in this thread………Sorry
fdt……..I just could not help my self……..So please understand my ‘feelings’ and forgive me.
Dave, I’ll say nothing about your contributions because I know that no matter what I say you will send a very pointed zinger my way………….Okay I do like
you also.
My diaz pesos.DENNIS - 3-9-2007 at 04:56 PM
Thanks Bernie ...
For future reference, that's diez pesos. Porfirio quit making them a long time ago.
Happen to know the article?