BajaNomad - REAL price of fuel in La Paz

REAL price of fuel in La Paz

twogringos - 3-4-2007 at 10:42 AM

BajaCactus reported the posted fuel prices at the PEMEX stations. As we all know, the price of fuel is set by the government and is the same all over Mexico. Over the last two months I have surveyed the accuracy of the pumps in La Paz. Based on the price of Magna at $2.36/gal., here are the results. The data are listed in the format
Station #, location, actual liters indicated per gal., REAL price

8265;Abasolo & Encinas;4.46;$2.78
1693;Abasolo & 5 de Feb.;4.38;$2.74
6900;Colosio & Toronja; 4.35;$2.71
1683;5 de Mayo & Serdan;4.84;$3.02
5064;Abasolo & Mar de Carib.;5.02;$3.14
5895;Forjadores & Libramiento;4.31;$2.69
8875;City Club;4.50;$2.81
????; San Juan de Los Planes; 4.35;$2.71

Note that the pumps at 1693 and 8875 were new and used less than a week when I measured them.

In La Paz, the pumps are generally set to deliver 15% low, that is, the deliver .87 liter and record 1.0 liter. Some only deliver .75l per 1.0l. Apparently some service station owners feel that the profit margin set by the government is not sufficient. Since they can't raise the price of fuel, they tamper with the delivery. (Question: If the business is so unprofitable, why are there so many new stations?)

Before Americanos declare that this fuel price is still cheap compared to the prices at home, they should think about the effect on the Mexican economy. The prices for good and services are necessarily higher to offset the extra cost of fuel.

[Edited on 3-5-2007 by twogringos]

villadelfin - 3-4-2007 at 04:15 PM

Quote:

Note that the pumps at 6900 and 8875 were new and used less than a week when I measured them.

Thank you for doing the study: but how did you measure? Will you be taking this to profeco?

And an open queston--wasn't the Qualli certification supposed to eliminate the problem of short pumping?

Offroad - 3-4-2007 at 05:04 PM

twogringos -
Good work. Gas ripoffs have been experienced by me the full length of Baja. While I have never done a study like you have completed, I have wondered why my 16 gallon tank takes about double (yes double) that amount at a few stations.
Price per liter or gallon means nothing to me as I have come to beleive that most are not honest.
If anyone questions my experience (all Pemex stations), take a can or cans and pump 7 gallons, translate into liters and see what you get. Pumps can be fixed to pump 5 gallons correctly, and then pump short, as was discovered a couple of years ago at some US stations.
So I can use a locking gas cap, make sure the meter is set to zero, and I still get ripped off. I question the attendent, and they do nothing. My guess is it is their boss making the additional $$, so if they can further rip you off they may be inclined to do so.
I love Baja, love the people, but hate knowing what is happening when I stop for gas!
Thanks again for your study.

Bob and Susan - 3-4-2007 at 05:55 PM

did you know that gas expands with the temps

if you buy in the afternoon when its hot you get less gas :light:

was your study done at the same time of day with the same air temp? :light:

Bajaboy - 3-4-2007 at 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
did you know that gas expands with the temps

if you buy in the afternoon when its hot you get less gas :light:

was your study done at the same time of day with the same air temp? :light:

Did a little digging around and found this to support your claim:
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/12/15/AM200612...

TEXT OF STORY

SCOTT JAGOW: Miss Caudle was my seventh grade science teacher. She told me that when liquids heat up, they expand. And I think I said, when am I ever gonna use that on the public radio show I'll be hosting when I grow up? It turns out today is that day. The liquid is gasoline. A group of drivers claims we're getting ripped off at the gas pump when the weather's warm. More now from Dan Grech.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DAN GRECH: Gasoline is supposed to be sold at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. That's according to a century-old agreement between gas companies and regulators.

A class-action lawsuit filed this week by drivers in seven states accuses gas companies of breaking that promise.

Joan Claybrook is president of the consumer advocacy organization Public Citizen.
JOAN CLAYBROOK: The fuel, when it's warmer, it expands. So you're paying for a little bit more fuel than you're getting into your tank in terms of energy.
Hot fuel costs individual drivers a few cents extra per gallon.
CLAYBROOK: Pennies per person, but then if you drive a lot it really does add up.
She says all told hot gas costs U.S. drivers $2 billion a year. Gas stations can install machines to adjust for warm gas.

Of course, that's an expense that would likely be passed onto consumers.

I'm Dan Grech for Marketplace.

bajalou - 3-4-2007 at 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
did you know that gas expands with the temps

if you buy in the afternoon when its hot you get less gas :light:

was your study done at the same time of day with the same air temp? :light:

The expansion from the pump meter to your can is almost non existent. It might expand after it's in the can, it might have expanded while it's in the station's tank system, but between the meter and your can - no.

The expanded gasoline might have less power to run your engine.

I once filled up early in the morning in Mojave CA, drove about 50 miles had lunch and decided to fill up before heading into the mountains. Took 1 gallon when it should have taken about 2. Lots of expansion in a couple of hours on a hot day.

Hook - 3-4-2007 at 09:43 PM

I am a believer that the physics of expansion are not at play here UNLESS you begin pumping from a station that has just received a shipment that was transported in a VERY hot tanker truck. Of course it would be mixed with the cool subterranean fuel immediately.

That fuel in the underground tank is almost impervious to the ambient air temperature, be it 100 degrees or 40 degrees.

By this expansion line of reasoning, all the stations along the coastal strip in northern Baja would be accurate most all the time. I doubt it. I believe only Antonio's station in El Rosario has passed similar testing.

Expansion of a plastic measuring tank could account for some inaccuracies, but not to the degree noted here, IMO. The guy is seeing a 25% disparity in some cases. Occasionally, I will forget to travel with my can vented, but it sure doenst look like 25% expansion.

To me, there is only one logical conclusion left.

El Camote - 3-5-2007 at 12:28 AM

Just to play devil's advocate, how do you know where the full line is on your measuring can? It's obviously not all the way to the filler neck and most cans don't, at least mine doesn't, have a full line for its stated capacity?

Bob and Susan - 3-5-2007 at 05:47 AM

actually the expansion between 60 degrees and 90 degrees is 2%

so...doing the math..

if you buy 30 gallons you would only get 29 1/2 gallons with a 30 degree spread

Antonios is accurate because Antonio is honest and he doesn't "fix the pump"

remember some gas is left in the hose from the customer before

If the station guys are emptying the hose then the next buyer will NOT get a full gallon purchase
the gas is not measured at the nossel where the shut off valve is

did the tester fuel a gallon...then stop...then fuel a test gallon???
this is what inspectors do...i've seen um :saint:

____________________________________
edit...

posts like this on the internet are kinda like the "yellow press" from the days of the "wild west"...made to excite people...

[Edited on 3-5-2007 by Bob and Susan]

nobaddays - 3-5-2007 at 06:25 AM

My gas cans have a line at the 2 1/2 gallon mark. It has always been a short pour from the pumps throughout Baja.

Bob and Susan - 3-5-2007 at 06:29 AM

then how do YOU KNOW that mark is correct?

was the can "made in china"??? :lol:

isn't gas sold in baja by the liter? :light:

twogringos - 3-5-2007 at 08:20 AM

First, let's put the thermal expansion theory to rest. As has been pointed out, the fuel is stored underground and is generally insensitive to the outside temperature. So, assume you fill a container to a calibrated mark of 4.00 liters, and the pump reads 5.00 liters. You have just been overcharged by 25% (5.00/4.00). Now, assume you did this in August, and as before filled the container with fuel that is at the underground temperature (about 60 degrees F here) to 4.00 liters and again read the pump at 5.00, but this time you leave the can in the heat (air temperature 100 degree F) and allowed it to expand. If you look at the fuel in the container it will look like you actually got (per Bob and Susan - 2%) 4.08 liters. Now do the calculation and you find you have only been overcharged by 22.5% (5.00/4.08).

So, the effect thermal expansion is not only insignificant compared to the magnitude of the overcharge, it works in the wrong direction! In fact, the thermal coefficient of expansion for gasoline at ground temperature of 60 deg F is 0.00006. That is 0.006% per degree. See http://www.dot.state.oh.us/construction/oca/Specs/SSandPN200...

As for other questions:
I used a graduated container so I simply asked them to put about 5 liters in the container then read both the pump and the level of fuel in the container. Please note that all modern pumps say that they are "Accurate for any flow or delivery".

Empty hose? This could happen, but pumps now are turned off only when the hose is put back in the nozzle holder, so it is almost impossible to shut off the pump, drain the hose into the previous guys tank. Certainly can't happen every time.

Take this to PROFECO: It is hard to believe this happens without the complicity of regulators. Better would be to get the message out to the public so they could exercise some choice. However, we are talking about a LOT of money here, and I don't want to end up with a bullet in my head.

Accuracy: I would only claim +/-5%. Marks on the container or distortion of the plastic - insignificant compared to the magnitude of the pump errors. I only checked one pump at each station with one exception; station 8265 measured 4.46 at one pump and 4.25 at one on the other island.

Cualli: Stations 8265, 6900, 5895 and 8875 are Cualli

Don Alley - 3-5-2007 at 08:53 AM

Loreto had two stations that were well known for rigged pumps. Both get numerous customers with plastic tanks for their pangas who know they are getting ripped off. One local business owner got so angry, so the rumor mill goes, that he opened a new station with honest pumps.

But Pemex has responded. They have instituted the "Cualli" designation to assure us that certain stations meet a higher standard. Part one of that initiative is well under way; "Cualli" signs are up at stations, including all of Loreto's. Perhaps step two of the Cualli initiative will have something to do with monitoring the pumps. :biggrin:

Profit margins in the USA for retail gasoline sales vary, they could be as high as 25 cents per gallon, or sometimes they even sell for a loss. Pennies per gallon is common. So most retailers of gas have convenience stores and some even have fast food franchises. A few stations down here are figuring that out. A Pemex with a small mercado can perhaps make a reasonable profit selling 1000ml per liter.

Or it can make a larger profit selling 800ml per liter. :lol:

But ain't Mexico great? Here the little guy, the station owner, gets to cheat, unlike the USA, where that's reserved for mega-corporations. :lol:

I just like it when they clean my windshield. :biggrin:

Hook - 3-5-2007 at 10:53 AM

I got to thinking that maybe this is a way of making up for the fact that MANY storage tanks at stations are probably leaking significantly. Think about it, many of the US stations have had to replace tanks (some more than once) in the last 10 years because of new regs that require them to be pressure tested. Many were leaking, judging by the number of stations that were out of business for a time near me in SoCal. Pemex is probably buying from the same suppliers and I doubt that many (if any) tanks have been replaced.

Not trying to justify the inaccuracies, mind you.......

twogringos - 3-5-2007 at 11:41 AM

lencho has pointed out correctly that many Mexicans buy a preset amount of fuel, so the pump shuts off and perhaps the hose could be drained. That way the hose would have to fill before gas went into my container. Let's look at that. The hose is 19 mm in inside diameter and about 4 meters long. The total volume of the hose would be 1130 cubic centimeters or 1.13 liters or about 30% of a gallon. However, for the fuel to drain from the fuel hose air has to go in through the nozzle to replace it. If the attendant held the nozzle open and the air went in fast enough, the hose would not empty, but could drain to the level of the car's filler neck. The length of hose from the top of the pump to the level of the filler is about 1 meter so maybe 7% of the overcharge could be due to this. However, to drain the entire hose the attendant would have to raise the entire length of the hose higher than the filler neck. I have never observed this, but???
The next time someone is at the 7/11 with a prepaid quantity, test this theory.

Hook, good point about leaking gas. I imagine the groundwater under La Paz is awash in gasoline. Two of the stations I tested were here when I first came nine years ago, the rest are less than 3 years old. The City Club station opened a month ago.

Don Alley, you are correct. PEMEX isn't making any money on this (I don't think), just the 'little' guy.

[Edited on 3-5-2007 by twogringos]

Hook - 3-5-2007 at 12:21 PM

Dosgringos, I read an article about a year ago that pointed out how much of the gasoline delivered to Pemex stations has been doctored to provide larger profits for members of the distribution system.

Basically, trucks are waylaid after they leave the refinery, a portion of the gas drained off and replaced with a cheaper substance like kerosene or ? (cant remember the other ingredients).

The article claimed it was very widespread.....a major black market.

Alan - 3-5-2007 at 06:52 PM

Gas stations are honest in the US?

Why is that pump prices here immediately jump at every little glitch in the supply system? They have already paid for the fuel in their tanks and the profit margin for that delivery has already been calculated into the price. If their profit was actually a constant, prices should only rise after a delivery instead of fluctuating daily as they do.

I'd have to say that in the US it is not just the mega-corporations, we are getting hosed by everyone. I still haven't heard an explanation of why diesel is now more expensive than premium unless profit is actually calculated per consumer rather than per gallon as I assumed :lol:

I bought a diesel two years again for the fuel economy but my fuel bill is the same as when I drove a big block.

Man oh Man

Sonora Wind - 3-5-2007 at 08:23 PM

Never saw so much math!!! Great read and as we all know, ( yes fuel is expensive). I have several carbon credits I may be willing to part with for the right price.

Did pay five dollars a gallon once, for diesel at a closed Pemex at the turn off to LA BAY. It came from 55 gal drums to my 5 gal cans. Considering where I was, and where I was planning to go,( SISTERS ). Well as they say Priceless :yes: