BajaNomad

Loreto water meeting

Don Alley - 3-14-2007 at 06:09 PM

GEA and the local University hosted a meeting on Loreto water issues today, featuring a study on available options authored by Sherwood Design Engineers of San Francisco, sponsored by the International Community Foundation.

Some interesting facts:

The original source of Loreto groundwater has been contaminated by saltwater intrusion and rendered unsuitable for a domestic water supply over 20 years ago.

Loreto now recieves its water from wells in the San Juan Londo aquifer north of town. Fonatur guaranteed water from this source to the Loreto Bay Company and LB has contracts to that effect with Loreto, which now controls that water, so LB gets its water from the same source.

Loreto uses enough water for a city of 27,000, due to waste, leaks, etc.

Water use is expected to grow by 2 to 10 times in the next 20 years.

A recent study by the University of Arizona suggests that the San Juan aquifer will be contaminated with salt water by 2025, perhaps earlier, under all growth scenarios. That study was rejected by local, state and federal governments, instead a new study by the Mexican Federal water agency was promised. That study has been completed. The results have not been released.

Current monitoring of the San Juan aquifer suggests that salt water intrusion from the gulf may never occur; instead, intrusion from deep thermal sources is a more likely threat as the water table diminishes. Such an intrusion will result in contamination with arsenic and heavy metals and result in the shutting down of the pumps.

The report had much information on desalinization:

There currently are no regulations or standards on building or siting such plants.

While the marine park is cited as a factor affecting the siting of a plant, the marine park representative at the meeting seemed to say that another agency in Mexico City would make any decisions.

Desal returns 50% usable water, and 50% brine (approx). The water is treated with chemicals before filtration; those chemicals are left in the brine. That may be one reason the brine is not marketable for salt even if further evaporation reduces it to a solid.

The report recommends a centralized system, both in terms of physical plant and regulation, instead of individual plants operated by different entities.

Direct release of brine into the SOC is a "last option;" better options would be to find closed aquifers for deep well injection of the brine.

Most of this information is or will be available on the web on GEA's site and/or the International Community Foundation's. I'll get a link later but now it's dinnertime.

Crusoe - 3-14-2007 at 06:20 PM

Don.....Thanks so much for such a honest and clear report. ++C++

rogerj1 - 3-14-2007 at 07:52 PM

Has anyone heard of a new technology that extracts water from the moisture in the air?

jerry - 3-14-2007 at 08:12 PM

Desal returns 50% usable water, and 50% brine (approx). The water is treated with chemicals before filtration; those chemicals are left in the brine. That may be one reason the brine is not marketable for salt even if further evaporation reduces it to a solid

first Don thanks for the report

it would be very interesting just what the chemicals are and what problems they pose?? everything in this world is made up of chemicals
the word (MAY) goes a long way in both directions

any idea when the mexican federal agency report will be coming out??

if the iffluent from the treatment plant is mixed with the brine it will delute it and or help with a lot of the problems

im not advocating anything just keeping it between the lines

jerry - 3-14-2007 at 08:16 PM

Current monitoring of the San Juan aquifer suggests that salt water intrusion from the gulf may never occur; instead, intrusion from deep thermal sources is a more likely threat as the water table diminishes. Such an intrusion will result in contamination with arsenic and heavy metals and result in the shutting down of the pumps.

who is doing the monitoring now??

Crusoe - 3-14-2007 at 08:29 PM

Oh Yeah........ It works good as long as you got a high enough relative to humidity equation........One very good way to sample this is to... the next time you are stuck on a remote Baja beach in your kayack with no water and no food and your in a place that is 100 miles from life( or water) and you will be able to and can find an old plastic bag then...... take a small drinking cup and dig a place in the sand for the cup... and place the cup under that spot,and clear away all the scorpions and other debris. A place in direct sunlight is the best. Place the cup in the sand and by digging a small hole wait to get a drink, buy putting the cup under the bag. Or.....just go resarch the all the ways to do this. Its amazing to me just how much nature will provide. You may have to lay still and think about life and watch all that you came there for, and never took the time to see.Never ever has liquid tasted so good. The nicest sky and clouds will appear. ONLY IN BAJA!!! ++C++

Water

tehag - 3-14-2007 at 08:45 PM

Thanks for the post. No BS.

Don Alley - 3-14-2007 at 09:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jerry


it would be very interesting just what the chemicals are and what problems they pose?? everything in this world is made up of chemicals
the word (MAY) goes a long way in both directions

any idea when the mexican federal agency report will be coming out??


Chemicals: These desal plants are the products of private firms, and the chemicals (which are to protect the reverse osmosis membranes from scale and biological fouling) are part of a propietary technology, so their exact composition is not available.

The federal agency report is finished. It has not been released because it is being suppressed. Politics was mentioned as a possible rreason.

Don Alley - 3-14-2007 at 09:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jerry
Current monitoring of the San Juan aquifer suggests that salt water intrusion from the gulf may never occur; instead, intrusion from deep thermal sources is a more likely threat as the water table diminishes. Such an intrusion will result in contamination with arsenic and heavy metals and result in the shutting down of the pumps.

who is doing the monitoring now??


There are different kinds of tests. One is for salt content to monitor slatwater intrusion from the sea. The other, much more expensive test ($10 per sample) tests for heavy metals that would indicate thermal intrusion.

I'm not exactly clear on what current or future monitoring schedules may be, but I got the impression that saltwater monitoring may continue but further funding for metals testing is not currently available.

Most of the work reported this morning came from studies funded by non government organizations, who have not committed to long term monitoring, which should at some point (imo) be a government responsibility. As I have stated, the government's contribution to the knowledge base on the aquifer has yet to be released.

jerry - 3-14-2007 at 09:42 PM

thanks again for the info Don
that heavy metal test must be at the tap for$10. bucks?? ill donate a fifty for the next 5 years who do i pay? i want to see the report first
i hope thiers more and more testing and all ends well
and i mean the wells well too

k1w1 - 3-14-2007 at 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rogerj1
Has anyone heard of a new technology that extracts water from the moisture in the air?


Water Windmills?



interesting ...

http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1837203.htm?backyard

wilderone - 3-15-2007 at 08:36 AM

I hope every new LB villager receives a plastic bag and a cup upon completing escrow with the following instructions: "dig a place in the sand for the cup... and place the cup under that spot,and clear away all the scorpions and other debris. A place in direct sunlight is the best. Place the cup in the sand and by digging a small hole wait to get a drink, buy putting the cup under the bag." Would equate to "sustainable"

jimgrms - 3-15-2007 at 10:30 AM

I wonder if loretto has considered evaporaters to make fresh water, energy cost would be high unless solar cells are used, , proably cheaper than a desalplant and nowhere near as many chemicles to dispose of

Don Alley - 3-15-2007 at 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jimgrms
I wonder if loretto has considered evaporaters to make fresh water, energy cost would be high unless solar cells are used, , proably cheaper than a desalplant and nowhere near as many chemicles to dispose of


The report by Sherwood considered other options besides reverse osmosis. I believe high energy costs were a big drawback to evaporaters.

As for what Loreto, state and federal governments, and developers have considered:

This isn't like all those proposed Baja developments over the years where the "developers" had nothing but a big parcel of cheaply bought land. The developers coming to Loreto now have experience, they have money, they have access to large sums of credit and they have paid millions for the land. I find it hard to believe that they are not well beyond the stage of conjecturing how to acquire water. My guess-just a guess-is that decisions have been made and these developers know just how they are going to get water. I further assume that means a proven technology, and I believe that means reverse osmosis desalinization of seawater, or, more likely, brackish water from wells.

It seems there are two major problems with desal. One is economic. They produce expensive water. The worse option in that regard is for individual developments to independently develop their own "sustainable" systems. That would leave the city, and its larely lower-income population, to pay the entire costs of their own desal system without the costs being shared by the most affluent areas in the region.

The other potential problem with desal is environmental; the waste brine could be a disaster for marine life in the confined water of the Sea of Cortez. And the Marine Park is cited as a concern. But when one considers that the government has never taken any serious steps to protect fisheries that have been declining for decades, that they sell permits to gillnet spawning gamefish in the Marine Park...then a simple solution to any threats from brine to the Marine Park would be to make brine disposal part of their "management plan." These young people running the marine park are no match for the developers.

Link to Loreto water study

Don Alley - 3-15-2007 at 11:34 AM

http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/desalination/index....

wilderone - 3-16-2007 at 08:23 AM

Yes, they have "a business plan which analyzes the opportunities for an early stage desalinazation plant" from Econergy; they have a letter from FONATUR they can wave to prospective buyers; they've got a lizard round-up, some plants in boxes - all the smoke and mirrors they need to SELL UNITS. Below is what they told BajaLife last year. Note they stated the desal plant plan will take DECADES. That's plural - more than one - at least 20 years. And in the meantime? Sucking the aquifer. And what will happen within 20 years? Either the way of Cancun and Cabo; or the way of missions. But first and foremost - the utmost priority - is SELLING UNITS. The rest is all talk.

From Bajalife article

"Aside from installing low water usage appliances in the homes, Loreto Bay has planned the construction of a desalination plant to ensure that The Villages of Loreto Bay and everything affiliated with it will have sufficient water in a desert region where water is far from abundant. According to David Veniot, the current plan is to build a desalination plant that is 48 feet by 56 feet adjacent to the golf maintenance building near the highway. At first, energy consumption by the desalination plant is expected to be about 3 Megawatts, but could require as much as 6 to 9 Megawatts after the plant is doubled in size as planned. Expected production of the desalination plant will be 1,232,000 m3/year (325 million gallons/year) which, according to Loreto Bay, is more that adequate to meet the needs of the development. In fact, expansion by another fifty percent is possible and would ensure that Loreto Bay would be the net producer of water in the entire Loreto region. Loreto Bay’s research has culminated at the decision to implement the best reverse osmosis (RO) technology available. Loreto Bay’s model was adopted from the Puerto Peñasco plan, a project that is highly regarded for its history of salinity and biological testing. This RO model will ensure that the discharged solution is not warmer than the ocean itself, and solids, metals, and chemicals will be prefiltered before the solution is deposited back into the Sea of Cortés. In the long term, Loreto Bay plans to increase groundwater levels in the El Zacatel and El Tular aquifers by placing borders and gabions (rainwater flowslowing dams and diverters) in strategic tributary locations in the hills, selectively fencing areas to prevent overgrazing, and replanting the tributary with many layers of indigenous plants and trees. This will result in the increased percolation of water through the soil which, over time, will enrich the soil and facilitate re-vegetation, thereby increasing the aquifer’s ability to receive and percolate increasing amounts of water. This program is projected to take decades to complete as groundwater levels are increased to a level that can supply a significant portion of Loreto Bay’s water demand.

Loreto Bay has received expert advice from the California Coastal Commission and the “Save Our Shores” organization in collaboration with the Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary to find ways to reduce the negative impact of salt deposits on marine life. As recommended by the California Coastal Commission, sparging tubes or deep injection wells can to be used to mix excess salt with sea water underground so that by the time the salt reaches the open ocean it will be sufficiently diluted and therefore benign to marine life. Currently, it appears as though Loreto Bay is receiving enough expert advice on the subject to warrant that they have good intentions.

Heidi Sanborn is very concerned about Loreto Bay’s plans to build dams that will artificially fill the existing aquifers. She comments that “any time you dam a river or creek, especially in a desert, whatever is downstream dies and whatever is getting flooded will change plant life to a more water loving plant. Trying to artificially fill an aquifer by over watering the surface will change the fauna. Without a full review by an independent hydrologist and plant biologist, I would not be convinced that this is an appropriate way to obtain water.” As Vice President of the Board of Directors for GEA, Linda Kinninger is concerned about Loreto Bay’s plans to fence areas to prevent overgrazing. GEA is committed to providing a management and protection program for the big horn sheep that graze in the mountains, but Loreto Bay fencing may serve as an obstacle to that end if it cuts the animals off from their water supply."

Crusoe - 3-16-2007 at 08:30 AM

Thanks Don for a very well stated and honest post. You are "spot on" on all issues. I was not aware of........But have heard..... that Catalina Is, (one of the Channel Is. off Los Angeles )is reported to have two desal plants operating there? If this is true.....One wonders where their brine waist is ending up??? Anyone out there Know??? Thanks ++C++

wilderone - 3-16-2007 at 09:29 AM

A lot of information here regarding desal plants in California. Keep in mind that most of these discharge into the Pacific Ocean - not a more or less confined Gulf - nor a "protected" marine preserve. http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap3.html
The report on the one in Florida, which was not allowed to discharge into the ocean, reports that many marine species were wiped out.

flyfishinPam - 3-16-2007 at 01:48 PM

HI there, here's where my chemical background may help. The engineer in the meeting mentioned that the chemicals are used to de-scale the system- that means strong acids. To descale my cappuccino machine I use citric acid which is a mild acid because its coming in contact with the source where I'll be drinking from (and my caffeine addicted clients too) . In an industiral system strong acids would be used and they would be damn near impossible to remove. The other chemical that would need to be used would be an agent which would remove or prevent the growth of algae and mollusks on the system. Those would contaminate any brine wastes. Also the 50% yield of useable product (pure drinkable water) is an estimate. The SOC is much higher in salt content than say, the Pacific Ocean, so we must understand that the yield will be less than 50%.

Another issue was that water sources would become private once desal becomes the norm and that these private companies will be able to charge what they want. Everyone in that room had the ability to pay these future water bills but my neighbors in Miramar wouldn't have the means, so how will the common people be able to keep enough water around for their basic needs?

The woman from Niparaja who did the persentation about the geothermal incrusion (spelline, who cares?) was quite informative, especially when she said the other study was probably not being released for "political reasons". I have been looking all over Niparaja's website for this information and can't find it. I also can't find it on GEA's website. I would really, really love to find this study and read it for myself. Also I will see into my contacts for the heavy metals analyses.

OH, and I forgot and so did Don, the woman from Niparaja says the geothermal waters displacement into the aquafer will take from 5 to 10 years with the current use. Of course with mroe demand on the system it will happen even sooner. The heavy metals we're talking about ate Aresnic which is already 2.5 times the World Health Organization's recommendation for drinking water, and Mercury which I can't remember the current level off the top of my head. :o

[Edited on 3-16-2007 by flyfishinPam]

[Edited on 3-16-2007 by flyfishinPam]

jerry - 3-16-2007 at 03:37 PM

pam if its a acid there using then adding a base will nuturalize it i once saw a guy take a glass of acid he added lye to it and then drank it but im not trying it
lye is a base
acid nutrlize bases
bases nutrlize acids

flyfishinPam - 3-16-2007 at 06:34 PM

Lencho, don't know for sure but she translated her own presentation and her english was very good. does that help?

Jerry, depends on which acids are being used. If the solution were as simple as that they would already have the problem solved, but I believe the biggest concern is the salt slurry waste being of a higher denisty than the seawater it would be dispensed into and settling onto the ocean floor. Once there it will kill everything it settles on. The SOC does not have the same circulation patterns as the Pacific Ocean to disperse this and this is why it would be detremental.

Don, how did you find out about this meeting? I only knew about it because I corresponded with Sergio Morales and he e-mailed me on it. I showed up and was disappointed to see how small the room was and that very few Loretano faces where in there. Not that many would have understood the presentations, but a distilled version of its content needs to be put out there.

[Edited on 3-17-2007 by flyfishinPam]

Don Alley - 3-16-2007 at 07:56 PM

Pam, Linda Kettinger called us to tell us about the meeting, she's on the GEA board. I don't really know her, but I do contribute to GEA so that gets me on the list, I guess.

jerry - 3-16-2007 at 10:15 PM

pam as far as i know all acids can be nuetrilized by bases ?? its a balance??

flyfishinPam - 3-17-2007 at 12:47 PM

Jerry the part that makes an acid an acid is the free hydrogen ion. The stronger the acid the more willing that H+ ion is to be freed from its negatively charged partner so to speak. The concern is the other portion of the acid (the negatively charged one), like hydrochloric acid becomes free Cl- and H+ ions when diluted in water. the H+ can be neutralized and the Cl- precipitated out as a salt, but therein lies the problem. the H+ can be neutralized but the other portion, the salt~ waddaya do with it? Now that would be a mild case but who the heck knows what acids they are using, its proprietary information which I can respect but we need to know the actual contents and concentrations before we can think of a solution to the "chemicals". So the "chemicals" being left in the brine as a residual part of the process is the explaination as to why the salt brine cannot be re-used and sold off, but the big problem is that high density of the slurry and that it will not be able to be dispursed into the ocean's waters due to lack of sufficient currents off our area to not do damage. This is what I suspected in my research and it was confirmed by the desal presentations.

[Edited on 3-17-2007 by flyfishinPam]

flyfishinPam - 3-17-2007 at 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Lencho, don't know for sure but she translated her own presentation and her english was very good. does that help?


No, due to my own ignorance. I may have a line into Niparajá, let me see what I can do; so you want the presentation on Geothermal incursion into the aquifers presented in Loreto... was that this week?

--Larry


The presentation was on Wednesday and yes I would love a copy of the study or a line on where I can find it. I am going to La Paz next week so maybe I can go and visit Niparaja too.

jerry - 3-17-2007 at 11:03 PM

HI there, here's where my chemical background may help. The engineer in the meeting mentioned that the chemicals are used to de-scale the system- that means strong acids. To descale my cappuccino machine I use citric acid which is a mild acid because its coming in contact with the source where I'll be drinking from (and my caffeine addicted clients too) . In an industiral system strong acids would be used and they would be damn near impossible to remove. The other chemical that would need to be used would be an agent which would remove or prevent the growth of algae and mollusks on the system. Those would contaminate any brine wastes. Also the 50% yield of useable product (pure drinkable water) is an estimate. The SOC is much higher in salt content than say, the Pacific Ocean, so we must understand that the yield will be less than 50%.

Another issue was that water sources would become private once desal becomes the norm and that these private companies will be able to charge what they want. Everyone in that room had the ability to pay these future water bills but my neighbors in Miramar wouldn't have the means, so how will the common people be able to keep enough water around for their basic needs?

The woman from Niparaja who did the persentation about the geothermal incrusion (spelline, who cares?) was quite informative, especially when she said the other study was probably not being released for "political reasons". I have been looking all over Niparaja's website for this information and can't find it. I also can't find it on GEA's website. I would really, really love to find this study and read it for myself. Also I will see into my contacts for the heavy metals analyses.
i understand your passion pam and i feel the same but acording to your post its all pure conjecture what acid? if its acid? perhaps its a base ?if its either witch none knows. it is nutralisable or not?
can anyone tell me the amount of cubic meters of water in the sea of cortez?? tell me what % of increas in saline sulution will the sea of cortez have if the whole say 50 miles of coast line is developed to the utmost and a desal plant was used to supply all the fresh water??
is the sea of cortez dead in the north where the colorado river used to flow into it?? that a lot morefresh water depleation then a desal plant will add salt not even counting the mix of effelunt added back into the sulution

jerry - 3-18-2007 at 11:52 AM

n my opinion shear volume of evaporation that goes on every day would effect the salt content in the oceans a million times more then a desal plant ever could
just the differences from one year to the next drout to flash floods would have a lot more effect

most water is used and then goes to ground water or is evaporated anyway its a circle

whats happening in GN whos replacing the salt thats being taken out of the sea there??perhaps a desal plant might really be needed to creat a balance??
i think not. No more then a desal plant will change the sea in another area

backninedan - 3-18-2007 at 04:18 PM

Jerry, you are joking, right?

jerry - 3-18-2007 at 04:30 PM

im not joking at all backninedan what do you thinks is so funny?? other then my spelling:lol:

ncampion - 3-19-2007 at 08:26 PM

Jerry actually has a good point although evaporation takes place more or less evenly over the entire surface of the sea. I have not seen any actual engineering calculations on what effect the increased salt water would do when diluted into the SOC despite relativitely light curent flow. I would expect that the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly. Need to see some real scientific and engineering studies on this. In the Middle East they desal nearly all their water and dump it back into the Red Sea and Persia Gulf which are both quite constricted. I bet the water flow in the SOC is better than either of those bodies of water.

djh - 3-19-2007 at 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncampion
Jerry actually has a good point although evaporation takes place more or less evenly over the entire surface of the sea. I have not seen any actual engineering calculations on what effect the increased salt water would do when diluted into the SOC despite relativitely light curent flow. I would expect that the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly. Need to see some real scientific and engineering studies on this. In the Middle East they desal nearly all their water and dump it back into the Red Sea and Persia Gulf which are both quite constricted. I bet the water flow in the SOC is better than either of those bodies of water.


I've tried to only read (and not post) on this thread... but ~

ncampion ~ Have you looked? There is a significant body of research already available ~ including the resulting unintended consequences.

Also, "the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly" but that outfall WILL have an impact on the area it is discharged into ~ including the flora and fauna in that area.

This reminds me of the old philosophy of "well... let's just dump it into the lake / river / ocean" (out of sight out of mind). Some of the crap that I have found diving, in past years, and the devestation that it has caused . . well it just honestly amazes me that you'd suggest that "the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly."

Desal ~ like many things COULD be done well and offer some answers ~ or it could be done on the cheap - a real duct tape job.... and engineers have bunged up as many things as the rest of us.... it often depends on who they're working for....

I'd like to know exactly how much of our oceans have already been laid bare by waste, effluent, chemicals, petroleum, and nuclear testing and radiation, and other human caused destruction....

Pescador - 3-20-2007 at 07:44 AM

I will have to do some more research on this idea when I get back to Colorado in a week or so, but I just finished the higher level training of Water Operator Certification and the problem is not a simple process like evaporation. When sea water is pushed through a membrane which is small enough to pull out the salt and other chemicals, this process sort of works and usually has to have some addition of chemicals prior to filtration. That normally means the addition of several chemicals. First is usually a polymer of some sort which acts as a gathering agent which makes the molecules thicker or glues them together, in a manner of speaking. Then the problem of fouling is generally addressed by the addition of some type of acid, usually citric but this depends on the makeup of the water. The Sea of Cortez is already showing a higher salinity than the Pacific side and this may in part be caused by the lack of freshwater intrusion which used to happen from the Colorado River. Obviously, the problem with increased salinity and other chemical pollution will be a problem but the scope of the problem will be directly related to how much brine, of any makeup, is added.
Pam really touched on the crux of the problem from a socialogical standpoint, in that the influx of relatively wealthy investors (who promised all those jobs for the locals) will probably be ok with the higher cost of water, but the poor guy who just wanted to feed his family, who had a house and water before and sometimes a job, now has a regular job at Loreto Bay but can't really afford the water that he used to have.

jerry - 3-20-2007 at 10:07 AM

if the so called wealth people need the locals to live thier life style then they will be paying them enoff so they can afford water too or the locals simply wont be there to pamper them
everyone has to have water
by the guesses i have seen the local water will be gone in another 5-20 years anyway then whats is everyone going to do??
expensive water is better then none

Crusoe - 3-20-2007 at 11:40 AM

Jerry......Can you please verify your statement and information of " existing water will be gone in 5 to 20 years." Is this just more of the old rumor"talk"......or do you have any scientific substsantied published documents that can support your claim? Thank you so much. ++C++

Don Alley - 3-20-2007 at 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crusoe
Jerry......Can you please verify your statement and information of " existing water will be gone in 5 to 20 years." Is this just more of the old rumor"talk"......or do you have any scientific substsantied published documents that can support your claim? Thank you so much. ++C++


Here is a link to the Hydrology Report made by professors from the University of Arizona, part of the Futuros Alternativos para la Región de Loreto reports:

http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/hydrology/index.htm

From that report:
Quote:
Summary

Saline intrusion into the San Juan aquifer is already occurring at current population and pumping levels and can be expected to reach the municipal wells by 2025 or earlier. However, saline intrusion could be significantly delayed with infrastructure improvements to the existing water delivery system. Proposed retention basins in the arroyos can improve surface water supply to local farmers/ranchers, but will not increase recharge to the underlying aquifer in a measurable manner. Consequently, any future development in the region must find and develop an alternative water source for that development and the associated growth in supporting population.


I talked to the head professor myself, and he told me the report was conservative; things could be worse. This was after a meeting where the reports were presented to Presidente Davis and other city officials. The officials were critical of the reports.

This report has not been accepted by local, state or federal officials, but it did result in the commissioning of a federal government study of the aquifer. At the meeting that is the subject of this thread, we were told that that study was conducted by a reputable scientist, that it would be credible, and that it has been completed. Yet it has not been made public.

djh - 3-20-2007 at 01:55 PM

I have a complete copy of the Futuros Alternativos para la Región de Loreto study. I have read it, studied it, and asked for feedback on it from friends who work in the related sciences.

I'm not a hydrologist, limnologist, hydraulic engineer... but I have worked on regional projects that have required a significant amount of schooling and field work, so I can read such a report with at least a little awareness of the issues, science, and scenarios. I've heard positive feedback regarding the report from several of the scientists I've worked with (on past regional projects) who are employed by the state DEQ, the Health District, and my regional aquifer program and municipal water programs.

IE., the report appeared to be quite well done to me. I'm a little concerned about the state and local officials not "officially" accepting the report, but rather commissioning another... And combined with the officials giving away Loreto's water supply to LBC, my concern hints towards suspicion.

Hook - 3-20-2007 at 02:17 PM

Time to start towing icebergs to Loreto......mebbe, have a "land bridge" so you dont have to go all the way around the cabo........chunk it and truck it to BOLA where lighters would be waiting in a new marina to haul it to Pto. Escondido and it's new marina.

Hey, this solution seems to encompass every crazy idea in the last 10 years. :lol:

Sorry, Don, just having a little fun at the expense of Planning: Mexican Style. I really appreciate your efforts to keep everyone informed.

Jerry, it's all the chemicals that Pescador and Pam describe that make this process so much different that simple evaporation.

And just because bases will counteract the ph balance of acids doesnt mean there aren't other undesireable byproducts.

[Edited on 3-20-2007 by Hook]

Crusoe - 3-20-2007 at 02:22 PM

Thanks again Don......and thank you DJH. You would only hope with good honest reliable assesments of the coming water shortage, that city and govt. officials would at least by now have some population and building ordinances set in place so the town of Loreto could have some sort of "sustainability" plan. The L.B. C. should be required to by law to sever their water dependence from Loretos supply, and be able to only build and develop as they are able to provide for their own subjects...... Ok, Ok, I know its Mexico and it is all about development..... But by god it is 2007 going on 2008. How long can the blind and dumb keep walking and developing. After all,there comes a time when the price of progress outstrips any idea of bieng practical or intelligent. :mad:

flyfishinPam - 3-20-2007 at 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncampion
Jerry actually has a good point although evaporation takes place more or less evenly over the entire surface of the sea.

evenly is your key word. the dispursement of delas waste would be concentrated as it will be dispensed from one or more pipes set at or near the bottom.
Quote:
I have not seen any actual engineering calculations on what effect the increased salt water would do when diluted into the SOC despite relativitely light curent flow. I would expect that the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly. Need to see some real scientific and engineering studies on this.


the farther the outflow pipe, the more money that needs to be spent in order to build and maintain it. food for thought. since the bottom line is all the depvelopers give a rats ass about what do you think will happen?
Quote:
In the Middle East they desal nearly all their water and dump it back into the Red Sea and Persia Gulf which are both quite constricted. I bet the water flow in the SOC is better than either of those bodies of water.


and those seas are DEAD, lets not kill ours too.

Don Alley - 3-20-2007 at 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crusoe
The L.B. C. should be required to by law to sever their water dependence from Loretos supply, and be able to only build and develop as they are able to provide for their own subjects......


However, the development of LB results in big population growth inthe municipality, more people than residents of LB proper. Water supply solutions are best developed comprehensively instead of piecemeal, development by development.

The cost of water from desal is better spread over the entire population, rather than have specific developments creating independent systems. You don't want the folks in Loreto supporting an expensive desal plant without the support of the higher value real estate of Loreto Bay and other tourist developments.

I think it unlikely that water issues will derail development; with the desal option there is virtually unlimited water. But how these options are developed can mean a great deal economically and environmentally. Some of us at least hope that these"squeaky wheels" will push devlopers and government officials towards solutions with better results for the environment and local residents, vs. maximun benefit to visitors and developer's bottom lines.

ncampion - 3-21-2007 at 07:35 AM

Quote:
and those seas are DEAD, lets not kill ours too.


Not so at all, in fact the Red Sea is known for its biodversity including excellent diving. It is also noted for its high salinity of about 3.8%. Do a search, here's a quote:

[edit] Living resources
Red Sea holds one of the most spectacular coastal and marine environments of the world and has a rich biodiversity

The sea is known for its biological characteristics including its rich fauna and flora, particularly coral reefs and numerous fish species has a number of unique marine habitats, including sea-grass beds, salt-pans, mangroves, coral reefs and salt marshes.

Perspective

djh - 3-21-2007 at 08:16 AM

The gent who lead the human genome mapping project is currently compiling and lecturing on the oceanic genetics research he has been doing since completing the genome project.

I saw him on NOW with my friend David Brancaccio last friday evening.

I was surprised to learn that - in the sea - every 200 miles, 80% of the resident species are different.

Our oceans are connected, like many of our terrestrial ecosystems, however, we have to look our marine ecosystems differently than we have in the past.

"The world we have created today as a result of our thinking thus far has problems which cannot be solved by thinking the way we thought when we created them." (A. Einstein)

jerry - 3-21-2007 at 10:48 AM

in my opinion there are a whole lot of questions that need to be answered
they need to be answered with facts
not pointed at shutting down developments
not just loreto bay but including the other developments upcoming i feel these will happen no matter what the protest
the facts on desal in the area will have to stand on its own

there still is a tide in the sea of cortez twice a day that flows rather swiftly
in my opinion any problems that have been stated with a desal plant can and will be delt with facts

tripledigitken - 3-21-2007 at 02:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jerry
in my opinion there are a whole lot of questions that need to be answered
they need to be answered with facts
not pointed at shutting down developments
not just loreto bay but including the other developments upcoming i feel these will happen no matter what the protest
the facts on desal in the area will have to stand on its own

there still is a tide in the sea of cortez twice a day that flows rather swiftly
in my opinion any problems that have been stated with a desal plant can and will be delt with facts



Jerry,

I hope you're right. I am very concerned from what I am reading regarding Loreto's future. I just don't have any faith in the likes of developers like Loreto Bay. I think the desal issue in the Sea of Cortez is a unique one, particulary in Loreto coupled with the fact it is adjacent to a Marine Sanctuary. Developers here in the states are held to rigid environmental laws, not so it seems in Mexico. We would have very few Salt Marshes left if they were turned loose to US Developers.

For the record I'm not anti development, I have made my living in Construction here in the states.

Ken

Hook - 3-21-2007 at 02:59 PM

Money has trumped facts many times in Mexico, Jerry.

And when the facts finally do surface, the money is long gone.....

[Edited on 3-21-2007 by Hook]

jerry - 3-21-2007 at 04:32 PM

i dont believe that developers are so stupid that they will shoot them selves in the foot??
everyone knows that its going to take water to develop

that water is only going to come from one place the sea
it does need to be viable for the health of the sea and the comunity
if they destroy the very reason that people want to buy in loreto area there is no development

tripledigitken - 3-21-2007 at 04:45 PM

I think it is a possibility that by the time the problem really surfaces the developer (Loreto Bay) will have gotten their money and they will be off to a new location, and new opportunities.

I may be wrong here but I thought I had read that Loreto Bay had already sold a portion to a Financial Partner. Somebody help me. If that is true they have already cashed out significant profits.

I'm not sure that the typical buyer in Loreto Bay is analyzing the source and supply of water before they purchased. If they had, why would they have bought in the first place, with the apparent smoke and mirrors that we are hearing about.

[Edited on 3-21-2007 by tripledigitken]

jerry - 3-22-2007 at 09:51 AM

i think LB has citi- bank as a partner
you really think that a bank is going to ignore all the pitfalls of loreto bay?? and throu money at it?? i never found a bank that takes any risk
as a financial partner they are probibly providing financing for the homes only??

tripledigitken - 3-22-2007 at 10:37 AM

Jerry,

Let's revisit this conversation in 2 years. By then it should be apparent whether there is a water problem or not.

As far as Banks not taking risks. Does'nt Sub Prime loans defaults, in the news currently, sit squarely in the laps of the banks. Policies of high risk loans to first time borrowers, 125% loans, no down payments, questionable appraisals? All at a time of a frothy real estate market with rising prices. Kind of like Mexico right now? I think so.

just my 2 cents.


[Edited on 3-22-2007 by tripledigitken]

Phil S - 3-22-2007 at 10:58 AM

Jerry. Citibank took a 90% interest in the hotel purchase. But haven't heard from a "reliable" source of any L.B. ownership. Anyone have a direct reliable source to confirm or deny this?

Cypress - 3-22-2007 at 11:13 AM

Looks like "Don Chaos" is making reservations for a visit to Loreto.:(

backninedan - 3-22-2007 at 11:54 AM

Phil, I read the same article concerning citibank, but I guess that doesnt make it a fact.

jerry - 3-22-2007 at 12:08 PM

tripledigetken

most loans are put together by banks under the rules of the fed then a bunch of the loans are bundeled together and sold to fannymay and other federal instutions
banks pick up a small%inbetween and risk very little

if its a fact that citibank is only a 90% financer for the hotel that sure isnt a partnership in my book
many times banks loan money to builders and pay on progress payments like foundation15% framing 10% roof 10% and the like this is because the bank makes money on the loans and gets the oppertunity to supply mortages
for the finished houses if this is what is happening at LB
this is not a partnership perhaps something gets lost in the translation??

wilderone - 3-22-2007 at 01:47 PM

From the Citigroup Property Investors website:
"Citgroup Property Investors is the real estate investment management business of Citigroup, a unit of Citigroup Alternative investments. CPI invests its clients' capital in private market real estate investment strategies designed with the objective to produce attractive absolute and risk-adjusted returns in North America, Europe and Asia, along with liquid public market domestic and global real estate securities investment strategies." [and] "As further described in the offering documents, an investment in alternative investments is specifically not suitable for all investors. Investing in alternative investments is only intended for experienced sophisticated investors who are willing to bear the high economic risk ...." It then lists 21 potential risks.
So CPI clients - not necessarily the bank -- (but does state that that there is a "significant alignment of interest" - "co-investment by Citigroup and senior team members") invests capital that "is co-sponsored and/or co-managed with partners." This is a proprietary, separate account and fund client capital under management with CPI. Kinda like junk bonds. LB is the one which issued a press release stating they acquired the hotel property with CPI (where would LB get the capital to purchase it, since the money from the residence sales is used for building the units and paying the salaries of all the LB staff- including the 6 fulltime staff members (who I suspect are school children) who capture lizards in the path of bulldozers and release them in an secret area), and that they were going to make improvements and renovations. They bought it from FONATUR who was wise enough to get rid of that albatross after all these years. So CPI owns a hotel purchased with "client capital", managed by LB.

jerry - 3-22-2007 at 08:12 PM

simply they hold the mortage on the hotel just like banks do
the rest is smoke and people using the name for statuse??