TMW - 2-4-2004 at 08:35 AM
In Earl Stanley Gardner's book Hovering Over Baja, near the end he shows a picture and talks about the lost mission Santa Ysabel. The ruins in the
picture are somewhere between LA Bay and Catavina. Has anyone been there? Or dodes anyone know of the exact location shown in the picture? Has it been
linked to the missions?
David K - 2-4-2004 at 07:28 PM
Uncle Erle was a great mystery novelist. The Santa Ysabel mission legend was well known in the 1950's and 60's when Erle did most of his Baja
exploring. Everyone was looking for something out of place, man made, etc. That adobe building in Hovering Over Baja was in fact an old pre-automobile
age rancho, not a Spanish ruin, I was told.
So, where is it? The book gives a few clues from the DC-3. But, where is the DC-3, you ask? 
The DC-3 plane wreck that the chapter starts out talking about is on Cerro la Gobernadora (just northeast of El Crucero). GPS at the wreck is:
29º17.33'/ 114º06.57'
Thanks to Amigo-Nomad BillB, who climbed the peak and to the wreck and sent me the GPS and photos...
Erle writes he spotted a trail near the wreck and they followed it for several miles until the adobe was discovered. That region is the headwaters of
Arroyo Salsipuedes and La Asamblea. The new Rancho San Luis (29º16.72'/ 114º02.80') is back in there, behind a locked gate on a road that leaves Hwy.
1 where the old L.A. Bay road junction is, about 8 miles north of the new L.A. Bay hwy. junction.
Just to see the old grave tombs Erle mentions is worth an investigation! They sound like the tombs at Rancho Santa Ana, southwest of San Borja.
Bajataco has a great photo of those in his web site.
Choral Pepper searched for Santa Isabel near Puertecitos where the 1757 Jesuit map lists a waterhole (aguaje) of Santa Isabel. The lost Santa Clara
mission, near Punta Abreojos (listed as San Juan Bautista in 1757) is a better candidate for a lost mission. The ruins discovered in 1966, I have been
trying to re-find, is listed as Santa Maria Magdalena on that map, south of L.A. Bay.
Isn't Baja great!!!!
[Edited on 2-5-2004 by David K]
[Edited on 3-24-2011 by David K]
TMW - 2-4-2004 at 07:56 PM
David thanks. Also I just received some satellite maps from Discover Baja and the one for Gonzaga Bay shows the Santa Maria wash going back toward
Mission Santa maria. Have you seen the satellite map on this? I emailed the publisher to find out when the satellite photo was made. Also looks like
the road and wash from Papa Fernandez to Las Palmitas wash comes very close to the road from Santa Ines to Santa Maria. I think it's worth a site
seeing trip at both ends.
David K - 2-4-2004 at 10:00 PM
Last night I got a call from Baja Bob, thanks to Marvin Patchen. Bob wanted the details on the El Camino Real from Santa Maria to Gonzaga. Bob and
Norm Christie backpacked into the mission and down the canyon 8 years ago. That story is in a Baja Life Magazine article and on the Internet (link in
my web site's Links to Great Baja Web Sites section). I sent Bob my web site from last November and Don Jorge's of the El Camino Real.
Anyway, Bob told me he and Ralph are going to hike the ECR... and he did tell me a well defined, wide trail can be seen when you are at the summit 10
mi. from Santa Ynez (where you can see Punta Final), heading off towards Gonzaga...
Perhaps this is the cargo trail or a later version of the cargo trail the Franciscans/ Dominicans used for San Fernando (after Santa Maria was
closed).
Baja Bucko (on muleback) accesed the cargo trail further down, closer to the widowmaker grade from what I gathered. Maybe that was the first cargo
trail, before Santa Maria was closed?
In either case, Arroyo las Palmitas and Arroyo San Luis Alfredo drainages are likely the route of the cargo trail that Junipero Serra had constructed
to Bahia San Luis Gonzaga where the ships off loaded supplies. See my photo of the mission warehouse ruins on the shore of the bay, http://davidksbaja.com/1102/page4.html
I saw the satellite photos, at Discover Baja, yes... They are incredible! I think I need to buy a couple this Friday when go to see Graham's new
slide show.
[Edited on 2-5-2004 by David K]
Lost Missions
academicanarchist - 2-5-2004 at 09:43 AM
David. You and I have discussed the myth of lost missions for quite a while. They simply did not exist. Choral based her claim on the 1757 Venegas
Map, that was produced for propaganda purposes, to get more money from the Spanish government to support the Baja California missions. There are no
lost missions with hidden treasures, or lost missions.
Dolores del Norte
academicanarchist - 2-5-2004 at 09:44 AM
I will remind you about the claim that a Dolores del Norte mission existed, a claim that I have debunked in one of my papers on-line at Tim's web
site.
Lost Missions and other american passtimes.
jrbaja - 2-5-2004 at 08:47 PM
You guys crack me up. All of your research seems to come from prior american tourists looking into other american knowledge regarding places in a
foreign country. Which also happens to have a lot of local and federal knowledge regarding exact same subjects. It is their history after all.
And on top of that, despite the lack of speaking Spanish and not consulting the folks that actually know and have already done the research, you
claim to be experts. hahahahahahahaha
Try going to the La Paz Museo or any of this countries resources for accurate info..
They were interested long before american tourists became involved.
The one magazine I showed David when they brought donations down, he discovered maps and locations of the imaginery missions. Seems as if he isn't
the only one interested. And not only that, if you are a Mexican , you can go right to the sites. Go figger!
Next time I am asking for directions to the Washington monument, I think I will ask someone in Cambodia.
David K - 2-6-2004 at 12:22 AM
Don't know why you have to assume an interset in finding lost missions has anything to do with treasure hunting? Looking for lost missions is just an
activity... something fun to do to get outside, and it is based on historic interest. THERE IS NO GOLD TREASURES at mission sites!
The ruins that Choral, Erle and company DID find in Feb. 1966 were south of L.A. Bay and north of Santa Gertrudis (called Dolores del Norte on the
1757 map)... right where the Venegas map listed a mission "Santa Maria Magdalena" as "Started". For lack of a better name for the site they found,
Choral applied that one.
About Dolores del Norte: Yes, we know that you did great research and learned that Santa Gertrudis was going to be called Dolores del Norte, at first.
I have said that in my mission web site, with links to your papers.
Some maps list a Dolores del Norte south of El Arco, near or at the visita of San Pablo... as some early historians mistook San Pablo for a mission
(it looks just like Santa Maria) and even INAH calls San Pablo, Dorores del Norte!
Fact: The villagers of San Francisco de la Sierra identified the old walls there to Choral (in 1964), as the remains of Mision Dolores. That is what
they believed as handed down from previous generations. Now, it may be true that San Francisco was an early site for Dolores. That, because to limited
water, the site was moved north to Santa Gertrudis... But, the villagers called the walls 'Dolores', for what that's worth.. and as J.R. woukld say,
it's their country!
I am interested in seeing all histoiric sites in Baja. The fun is the searching for something that IS out there (Choral's 'Santa Maria Magdalena') or
that MIGHT BE out there (The Santa Clara's 'San Juan Bautista') or even those that PROBABLY ARE NOT out there ('Santa Isabel'). Whatever, but it is
getting people interested in Baja history, Baja missions, and Baja exploring... and that is a GOOD THING Robert!
Viva Baja's Lost Missions!
Lost Missions
academicanarchist - 2-6-2004 at 03:30 PM
David. You and I know that, but many missions sites in Baja and elsewhere have been ravaged by treasure hunters.
That is a fact
jrbaja - 2-6-2004 at 09:35 PM
And not only that, I have seen two excavations back in the hills where caves were destroyed by treasure seekers. Which is why their locations
shouldn't be revealed to the m asses.
David
jrbaja - 2-6-2004 at 09:37 PM
Was that famous author your uncle ?
You Know........
Bedman - 2-7-2004 at 03:15 AM
I seldom if Ever get involved here anymore, but sometime I just can't help myself.
JR, are you so Hot for David that you have to Nit Pick every word on every post he makes? ie: is that Your Uncle? C'mon man....We ALL knew/know it
isn't. Just a phrase or turn of words.
also you imply that "Treasure seekers" are responsible for damaging some caves. Can you validate this statement or are you just flaming and trolling
as usual? Were there any arrests made? Eye witnesses? Newspaper articles? (like those will paint an accurate picture) Were these Treasure seekers
Americans perchance?
Does the La Paz Museo have an online/internet presence? I would love to read/visit the site. Unfortunately La Paz is a little farther than my local
library or this 19" monitor.
And if you'd like directions to the Washington monument you can ask pretty much anybody in that neighborhood and they can tell you. I'll even bet that
you can get the answer in no less than 6 or 7 languages. We are an homogenous culture.
A.A., You bring quality arguments to these boards. I don't always agree with you. At least your staetments are valid and often times credible and
valid. I'm sure you can appreciate Davids love for Baja and his willingness to share his information, albeit sometimes zealous.
TW, You have every right (in the U.S.A.) to ask any question you like. You might not get the answer you want, but you do have the right. Not like some
Napoleanic countries. You won't dissapear or turn into a F.O.R.D. (Found On Road Dead) So you keep asking, keep prodding and look for the truth. Don't
pay any attention to the naysayers or the Grinches on this board.
That's my Rant for the year.
Ignoranus (n.): A person who's both stupid and an axxhole.
Talk about nit picking
jrbaja - 2-7-2004 at 08:31 AM
Bedman, I am truly as dumb as you imply and that was a serious question. I consider David a friend and had no idea whether they were related or not.
Sorry to bring you out of the depths for a waste of time. Although you did get to throw in some very intelligent remarks against J.R. which seems to
be quite popular amongst a select few on this board. Intelligence 101.
I did ask the locals that were with me who did the excavaions and they looked at me like I was stupid or something. How the heck would they know who
did it. And especially, how the heck would I ?
The fact is it was done by someone and I would like to do everything possible to stop this from happening in the future including not posting their
coordinates.
If you can't understand that, it doesn't come as a big surprise .
Clarification
Jack Swords - 2-7-2004 at 09:24 AM
For what it is worth, La Paz has more than the "museo". The Museo Regional de Antropologia e Historia de Baja California Sur is a natural history
museum and contains some excellent materials and also some historical inaccuracies based upon probably a cultural bias (which is understood). There
is also the Biblioteca de Historia de las Californias which holds a bibliographic collection of the history of the Californias important to
researchers and historians. There is La Agora de La Paz, and also an office of La Ruta de las Misiones just up from Marina de La Paz. One source of
information is generally inadequate and these resources can help research greatly.
Also, I know for a fact that "AA" speaks and understands Spanish fluently.
Many isolated sites of historical importance have been systematically looted due simply to their isolation. As INAH and other local entities
increase their influence, one can see more and more protection provided to these important resources. Ignorance, or hiding of these sites will lead
to more destruction: noone will know what is lost (or care). There are those who care to preserve this history (including the very influential
California Mission Studies Ass'n...with participants on both sides of the border). If one wants to have more information, or wants to help, contact
the CMSA on the web.
[Edited on 7-2-2004 by Jack Swords]
Lost Missions, etc.
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 10:39 AM
David, I see nothing wrong with looking for "lost missions," even though they don't exist. My concern always has been, and this is a concern that you
also share, is the integrity of historic sites that have been ravaged by pot hunters, treasure hunters, etc. It is explicity stated on the Baja
Missions web site. My only point is that when we discuss these topics, we need to add a disclaimer about not treasure hunting or pot hunting at
fragile sites. One never knows when some newbie will pop in, get the wrong idea, and go off shovel in hand.
FWIW
Debra - 2-7-2004 at 10:55 AM
dos centovios.......
Exploring is exploring.....David K. is a man on a mission......looking for a Mission ("it's lost Dad, don't they call it that for a reason,
right").........I know for a FACT that nothing is taken except pictures and nothing is left but foot prints.......I think that mission does exist, and
I hope to be along when he finally finds it.
Mission vs. Mission related building
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 11:15 AM
Debra. It is very possible that there was a mission related structure in the area where David has been looking. Was there an endowed mission there?
No. In the 1740s-1760s, the Jesuits in Mexico were under close scrutiny by the government, and wrote very detailed reports for the government on their
mission operations. Venegas, who never set foot in Baja California, wrote one of several "official" Jesuit histories of the Peninsula missions, based
on the reports and other documents sent to officials in Mexico City.
David K - 2-7-2004 at 11:45 AM
Understod Robert... I have posted in all CAPS: There is no gold treasure in mission sites, etc.
Like Bedman says, I take photos and leave footprints. I do what I do (write trip reports) because I have a need to promote Baja as a wonderful place
for such explorations, a place where the entire family can see into the past together, that there is more to Baja than fishing, tequila drinking, and
Cabo San Lucas. I am on a mission for God, perhaps? In doing this, the associated fallout is the Mexican people benefit from these new (good people)
traveling Baja's back country. The Internet is just another format for information, like publishing books, but without the delay in time.
I do believe Baja is a special place... a very special place. I cannot explain why it drives me so strongly, but it is a religeous experience for me.
I am doing what my heart tells me to, help more people have apossitive Baja travel experience. Why do all of you make the effort to write on this
board unless you have a 'need' to share with others?
GPS is just the state of the art in giving directions... before we gave milages and compass headings. With GPS there is less chance of going the wrong
way, making new trails, wasting gas, getting lost, etc.
I have never published a GPS of an unknown or previously unpublished site or one that was shared with me and asked to keep personal (only Neal Johns,
Jack Swords, and Norm Christy have made such requests, and I have honored them). I was shown where Indian pottery is just scattered about the ground
and have not published that location (you can drive right to it). The same goes for a place with arrowheads all over... Don't worry guys, what I do
publish is enough to create interest in those like us and to respect Baja's wonders. You will get a lot more formerly secret or unpublished Baja sites
from Walt Peterson's Baja Adventure Book... complain to him if that sort of thing bothers you.
JR... Sorry about the confussion, but since you have Gardner's book(s), have read my past posts, and maybe even looked at my Choral Pepper web page (
http://choralpepper.com ), I assumed everyone here knew Erle Stanley Gardner was affectionately known as 'Uncle Erle' to those that traveled with
him. Choral Pepper always called him Uncle Erle. Remember you can email or u2u me if you have a personal question. If Gardner was my uncle, don't you
think everyone would know that here? I was just so blessed to become friends with Choral Pepper (and the other Baja authors) and there's a reason for
that, I am sure... (God?)...
[Edited on 1-31-2005 by David K]
Uncle Earle
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:11 PM
I spent a summer in Dallas at SMU participating in a NEH seminar. One of the other participants liked to tell stories about his Uncle Earl, such as
the time he hooked a chain to one of the support poles of a circus tent, and drove off pulling it down.
Preservation of Mission Sites
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:27 PM
One of the things that David has been able to show on the Baja Missions web site is the deterioration of the mission sites, particularly the adobe
missions of La Frontera. I am attaching a 1975 photo of the second Rosario site. Compare it to the photo taken by Jack Swords, on the Baja Missions
web site: http://www.davidksbaja.com/bajamissions/page10.html
First Rosario SIte
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:36 PM
I am going to also attach several photos of the first Rosario site.
1st Rosario Site
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:39 PM
The ruined structure on the left of the photo was the mission church.
[Edited on 2-7-2004 by academicanarchist]
1st Rosario Site
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:40 PM
Ruins of the church.
1st Rosario Site
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:41 PM
Ruins of Santo Domingo Mission
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 12:43 PM
No need to apologize David.
jrbaja - 2-7-2004 at 01:07 PM
It was just a question. But you know these boards. And with your connection with Ms.Pepper, I didn't rule it out.
And I'm pretty sure that Jimmy Smith , may he rest in Tequila, the love of Dona Lupe, and Off Road adventures, didn't call him "Uncle Earl".
hahahahaha
1st Rosario Site
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 08:21 PM
I found a couple of more photos of the first site of Rosario.
1st Rosrio Site
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 08:21 PM
bufeo - 2-7-2004 at 08:57 PM
TW,
I tried to send you a pvt msg, but for some reason, the msg didn't want to make the connection. Maybe you can try from your direction to send one to
me.
In any event, I have some information pertaining to your original question (maybe that has been forgotten) that may be of interest to you, but I
don't want to post it here for all the world to see.
Ruins of alleged Santa Ysabel Mission
academicanarchist - 2-7-2004 at 09:13 PM
The original question was if anybody has visited the site of the alleged Santa Ysabel Mission shown in Gardner's book Hovering Over Baja. There may be
ruins at the site, but it was not a lost mission.
Venegas' 1757 Map of 'Lost Missions'
David K - 2-8-2004 at 07:03 PM
'Lost' as meaning never existed or never started or maybe started or maybe existed. Padre Miguel Venegas was never in California but had access to all
church mail and documents coming from California from which he drew the map. The map also shows a water hole between Gonzaga Bay and Punta San Fermin
(a point 10 miles north of Puertecitos). The water hole is called Aguaje de Santa Isabel. Choral Pepper and her son Trent searched the area south of
Puertecitos for Santa Isabel.
AA... can you reduce the size of your photos, because my browser will not open any of them or the posts in this thread with so much to download...? I
am replying 'blind' with this post of the map. Thanks!
Photos
academicanarchist - 2-8-2004 at 08:45 PM
Actually, I did reduce the size of the photos from the originals that I have digitized. The mission never existed! I have looked at much of the
documentation, as have others. It is a myth my friend. The general reports prepared for their superiors survive, and there is no mention of Santa
Ysabel. The definitive information on Dolores del Norte came from one such report.
bajalera - 2-11-2004 at 07:37 PM
JR, back there around 15 feet of posts ago, you said something I'd question--that Mexicans always know more about Baja than foreigners do.
Mexican archaeologists, for example, didn't have much interest in Baja until recently--for good reason. Being human, they preferred working on a dig
where the artifacts might include gold ornaments, ornate pottery and fine textiles--with restaurants, hotels and markets nearby--to working in Baja,
where the most exciting stuff you might find would be a secondary burial painted with red ochre, an atlatl, maybe a scrap of netting--at a place forty
miles from the nearest source of ice.
Archaeologists are every bit as territorial as mocking-birds, and Baja has become a popular place to work among Mexicans only after claims have been
staked on most of the interesting sites on the mainland.
The person directly responsible for most of the early peninsular studies was Dr. Carl Ortwin Sauer of UCal/Berkeley, a grumpy geographer who started
bringing graduate students in geography and anthropology down here in the 1940s. They were the Ph.D.s of Homer Aschmann's generation, who were
fascinated by Baja in days when Mexicans were not, and who laid the foundation for today's scholars--both Mexican and American..
I'm not sounding off to diss Mexican scientists--who are presently doing some great work here--but credit should be given when it's due.
As for getting true stories from local people, that can be iffy. I've heard a rancher say the ruins near his house were those of an Aztec temple.
bajalera
TMW - 2-11-2004 at 07:53 PM
Bufeo my email is TWDOE34@aol.com
The Berkeley School
academicanarchist - 2-11-2004 at 09:33 PM
Actually, Sauer and his students visited Baja California in the 1920s, on. One of the earliest was Peveril Meigs, who published his study of the
Dominican missions in 1935. Sauer and Meigs published a shorter study of San Fernando in 1926. Aschmann came a little later. Although more biased in
content, Zephyrin Engelhardt, O.F.M., published his first study of the Baja California Missions around 1912. There have been several Mexican scholars
who have done good historical studies of the Baja California missions in recent years.
[Edited on 2-12-2004 by academicanarchist]
[Edited on 2-12-2004 by academicanarchist]
bajalera - 2-12-2004 at 08:47 PM
Miguel Leon'Portilla gets my vote as No. 1 Baja historian.* He certainly made a lot of great additions to the Barco ms. And his book of ensayos is
interesting too.
bajalera
*Right after Erle Stanley, that is.
Leon Portilla
academicanarchist - 2-13-2004 at 07:14 AM
He did do a good job with editing Del Barco, and is a nice person. I met him many years ago. However, his perspective is very different from my
perspective on the Baja California missions and frontier missions in general. Take a look at some of my publications, and then let me know what you
think of my approach and perspective.
bajalera - 2-15-2004 at 05:44 PM
AA - I'll certainly take a look at your perspectives, provided I can find them anywhere down here. (Haven't checked out libraries yet, but if they're
on a par with La Paz bookstores the chances aren't too good.)
My Spanish isn't up to original documents, so I'm stuck with what's in print. I'm working on a book about Baja Nomads--the originals--with a chapter
on the Second Harvest that will make me famous. Or maybe just infamous.
bajalera
Books
academicanarchist - 2-15-2004 at 06:41 PM
Try Amazon.Com. Look under Robert H. Jackson.
availability
academicanarchist - 2-15-2004 at 06:53 PM
I checked Amazon.Com, and there are copies of Indian Population Decline relatively inexpensive used. My book on the California missions is a bit more
expensive, as are several other of my book.
bajalera - 2-17-2004 at 08:35 PM
Robert, I checked with alibris, and they have your New View, Indian Population, and Indians, Franciscans, etc. so I ordered all three to be sent to my
daughter in Santa Maria, CA. We'll be stopping by there next month. It'll be a pleasure to read the views of someone who doesn't have a religious axe
to grind.
bajalera
Bajalera
academicanarchist - 2-17-2004 at 09:53 PM
I hope you enjoy reading them. My book from Savages to Subjects is a synthetic history of missions from California to Texas as well. I do have to warn
you, though, that some people have almost considered me to be the antichrist, because of my interpretation of the history of the missions. On the
other hand, a Franciscan wrote a review of Indian Population Decline, and said that the facts don't lie and that other Franciscans, etc. should learn
from the lesson of what happened to the Indians in the missions. The people promoting Serra's canonization don't particularly like my scholarship, for
some reason. The book on the California missions has done very well for an academic book in terms of sales. If we cross paths, I will be happy to sign
them. Some of my more recent scholarship that has not been published yet can be found at this web site, including what hopefully will be a book soon
on the Chumash under Spanish rule, which would include the territory where Santa Maria is now: http://www.timsbaja.com/rjackson.html.
[Edited on 2-18-2004 by academicanarchist]
To Bajalera
Jack Swords - 2-18-2004 at 09:01 AM
Bajalera...call me when you get to Santa Maria. I'm in the phone book in Nipomo.
bajalera - 2-18-2004 at 02:28 PM
Robert, sounds really good! And if your paragraphs seem too long to me, this time around I won't mention it.
Jack, I'll do that. (Small world!)
I'd put this stuff on U2U if I could ever get the blasted thing to work!
bajalera
Lera
jrbaja - 3-4-2004 at 03:46 PM
Lera, you have a good point. I try to take everything I hear from everyone with a grain of salt. On the other hand, the locals, in spite of their
tendency to exaggerate, seem to know a lot more than the foreigners. Let's give those scientific expeditions guides some credit too. That's where the
knowledge generally originates here as you know.
As far as you literary efforts are concerned, you sure pick some strange topics hahahahahaha.
I will get in touch with you when I'm back in La Paz for an adventure trip.