BajaNomad

Does "Global Warming" affect Baja?

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Capt. George - 4-6-2007 at 01:44 PM

Here's a little something for Al Gore Groupies to watch:

"The Great Global Warming Swindle" see it on GOOGLE


WOW!!

woody with a view - 4-6-2007 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Does "Global Warming" affect Baja?


on the pacific in BCN? not yet, anyways.....

Capt. George - 4-6-2007 at 03:29 PM

the powers that be are trying real hard to bury this one!!

Don Alley - 4-6-2007 at 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. George
the powers that be are trying real hard to bury this one!!


I caught it. Yes, it is being chased off web sites by the people who presented it on TV. Copyright laws, lol.

And who started this whole thing? According to this film, Margaret Thacher, following strikes by coal miners, and part of her efforts to promote nuclear power.:lol:

I figure I need another college degree to sort this all out, although so many seem absolutely convinced (one way or the other) without raising too much sweat.

We do excel at manipulative filmaking, perhaps far beyond our hard science. I'm sure if this film gets traction we'll see a convincing response.

I'm concentrating on fishing. Only one yellowtail on the boat today, but two cabrilla. One fish kicked my butt. You guys work on this global warming thing for me; I'm trying to figure out if the bright moon reduces my catch.

Capt. George - 4-6-2007 at 08:42 PM

not if you fish at night!!!

mike odell - 4-6-2007 at 09:25 PM

Global warming has been very hard on us this year in baja sur!
I have had to wear 2 sweaters, one pair of sweat pants from last nov until
March 14 first time in 16 years, I thought about refitting my home to burn wood in my kitchen, livingroom, bathrooms, patio, inside my truck, damn this global warming, I finally put out the stove under my wife's uncles best friends cousins great granmas boat motor shade. Damn cold this year in baja ! anyone wanna buy 50 used tank tops??

Capt. George - 4-7-2007 at 04:25 AM

OH MY GOD, THE SKY IS FALLING, IT MUST BE "GLOBAL COOLING"!!!

Skeet/Loreto - 4-7-2007 at 06:52 AM

And here in the Great Texas Panhandle it is Snowing!! 6 Inches expected for Sunday! Typical Amarillo Weather.

Global Warming-- P. T. Barnum said it All-- There is a "Fool" born ever Minute----


Skeet

The Sculpin - 4-7-2007 at 07:20 AM

I'm not sure I understand the derision that is being focused on this debate. Are you guys disputing the science, saying it's flat out wrong? Are you disputing that humans are contributing to it? Are you disputing the proposed solutions that are being discussed?

From my perspective, I see a world wide issue being discussed in a rational and timely manner. I think that it's incredible to see that all these countries were able to sit in a room and agree with a position paper that is backed up with hard science. Regardless of the issue, this is a phenomenal undertaking!

In some respects, it's exactly what successful businesses do. They see a potential threat, they study and evaluate that threat, and they repond accordingly with research, innovation, entrepreneurship, labor and capital. New paradigms and products result, and all our pension funds grow accordingly.

Overall, I think this is a good thing that will bring about alot of change and innovation, and those 2 things are always good.

Osprey - 4-7-2007 at 07:41 AM

Sculpin, I think it's not so much deriding the issue as it is frustration over the ballyhoo -- so many talking heads using the issue for political/private advantage. Beyond that it is frustrating because there are so many levels of science at work. Just the aircraft emissions alone -- maybe close to 10,000 to 20,000 jet takeoffs per day in the U.S. alone gives the pollution hawkers plenty to scream about -- China's coal emissions, another. The frustration comes from knowing the U.S. will not give up one jet takeoff to solve any known problem ever and China will use all the coal until it's gone. Our lobbyists and their leaders will see to that. They haven't yet proven to me it's not a natural earth/sun/solar system cycle but, that said, that should not be a reason to further despoil the precious stuff that covers our planet.

Mexitron - 4-7-2007 at 07:58 AM

Heh, its even snowing this morning in Fort Worth! Its been like living in a greenhouse for the last month here--just a few nights ago I slept on top of the bed--not even a sheet. Gonna be tough on the farmers who planted corn already. As for the topic, yep, people in power will use everything at their disposal to manipulate the populace...I'm opting out and just trying to look at hard science...

Skeet/Loreto - 4-7-2007 at 10:57 AM

Good Post Osprey.

Looking from the outside, it appears to me to be another thing to bring "Fear" to the Masses so that they can be Controlled by the "Govt".
The Internet, Radio, TV. news Media and even Commercials play on the Fear of People and teaching them to Depend on Their Govt. to protect them.

The Fool who spends $50,000 on an Automobile,equipted with devices they think will protect them joins the Millions who think that a Bugulary System will prevent a Bugulary.

Global Warming may someday be proven as Fact-At this point I do not see that it has been proven-. So everybody stops flying, Driving, eating Beef, drinking Milk, Are we to Stave ourselves just because other People beleive in Global Warming??? I don't think so.

Stop living in "Fear" and go on with your Lives. Be Happy, Work Hard,Smile, Love.

Skeet/Loreto

David K - 4-7-2007 at 11:13 AM

Global Warming and Global Cooling happen... and man has no control over it, since it has happened over and over since before man was here, and long before we had automobiles and factories.

30 years ago it was announced that a new ice age was starting... HA!

The trend now is for a certain political point of view to blame man (mostly the United States) for 'Global Warming' to further their political ambitions.

In a recent hysteria movie it is claimed that a glacier in South America is shrinking... they show a chunk of it falling into the sea... something that happens every day, but they don't tell you that... The glacier shown is actually much larger than in 1973 when people who have been there first visited... ie., it is growing, not shrinking.

As far as Baja is concerned, the claim that ocean levels are rising is false... at least as far as the last 30 years is concerned... As I have been going to the same barrier island beach which is only a few feet above sea level, and it is still the same.

The earth may be warming or it may be cooling... the point is that it is NORMAL and not America's fault.

Nature is a mighty thing, and we are a small part, albeit a natural part of this planet... Don't jump off a cliff in terror. The polar bears will be fine, the world will survive... Just do what you know to be the right thing and be good to your fellow man!

[Edited on 4-7-2007 by David K]

Capt. George - 4-7-2007 at 11:22 AM

Global Warming = Lotsa Money Making

another bunch of environmental voo-doo crap. bring on more nonsense, give me another twenty years to milk the system...

Professional environmentalists are full of crap. fought them for 15 years, what a waste of time.....Our society today: The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling!

adios, over and out! I gotta go build my bomb shelter, oh no, that was something else? Hope the sun spots don't get us....ooooh, Armegeddon is just around the corner........

Are you really worried about global warming? Do you really believe it?

What are you actually doing about it? Maybe I can do that also?

cap'n g

Cypress - 4-7-2007 at 12:17 PM

Got a fire in the heater right now. Apologies to the global warming crew. :spingrin:Expect things to warm up without the aid of a wood heater in a couple or three weeks. :spingrin::)

baja829 - 4-7-2007 at 12:58 PM

Don't know what to blame it on, but, after having a beautiful sandy beach for over 20 years, here in front of my house -- and a very windy cold winter -- I now have a rocky beach and must walk out a quarter of a mile to reach the sand. Thought I was through with that when we sold our house in Puerto Penasco.

However, my neighbors to the North are quite happy, they can launch their boats in front of their homes now and don't have to trailer them down to our beach to go fishing. They have a beautiful new, rock-free sandy beach. Just nature, just winds, what happened???

Mexitron - 4-7-2007 at 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja829
Don't know what to blame it on, but, after having a beautiful sandy beach for over 20 years, here in front of my house -- and a very windy cold winter -- I now have a rocky beach and must walk out a quarter of a mile to reach the sand. Thought I was through with that when we sold our house in Puerto Penasco.

However, my neighbors to the North are quite happy, they can launch their boats in front of their homes now and don't have to trailer them down to our beach to go fishing. They have a beautiful new, rock-free sandy beach. Just nature, just winds, what happened???


Same thing happened to the beach I grew up on in South Laguna--the 1983 storms took all the sand and it never came back...but that is more from lack of replenishment of offshore sand from river systems than anything else.

The Sculpin - 4-7-2007 at 02:17 PM

OK.....how many people use sunscreen? How many used it 20 or 30 years ago? Is that lot's of money making? Yup. Is it a good idea to wear sunscreen? Yup. Is this a win for the evil "sky is falling" voodoo crap enviornmentalist or just adapting to new information and technology? I guess it's real hard for people to believe that a 1 or 2 degree jump in the worlds temperature can and would have such a drastic effect to our lifestyle. Still, don't we want to be on the leading edge of the technonlogy and not the trailing edge? Who gives a crap whether global warming is true or not..that's besides the point. The point is that global warming will open markets like you can't believe! It will open dialogue where it is now closed. Sure, it will shut down some markets, but the gains will outpace the losses. Come on...where are the free market thinkers?!?! Change is inevitable, change is good. Buying a hybrid will not save the world, but if alot of people by hybrids, hybrid technology will get much better, and will surpass todays technology. The same goes for airplane fuel...look what Branson is doing...exciting stuff.

Religious or political

Sharksbaja - 4-7-2007 at 02:25 PM

Quote:

For what they're worth, my beliefs (which I'm not going to argue about nor try to back up, I'm unqualified and this is religion, remember):


Are they not the same?

To me it looks as if every Republican thinks it's fallacy. Whereas it also seems every Dem think it's definite.

No gray area. Except for that haze over the planet.

Don Alley - 4-7-2007 at 02:29 PM

Change happens, to beaches, to climate.

Very few state that we are not in a period of climate change, with a rise in temperatures. Isolated anecdotal incidents aside.

The film that Capt. G mentions in the initial post in this thread features scientists, appparently from reputable employers, criticizing the science behind assertions that the current cycle of warming is caused by man. They are quite emphatic that we have been had.

Certainly these people are far more qualified than I am to reach a conclusion on this question.

Yet I believe there are other apparently qualified people who support the opposing viewpoint.

I guess it works like this. I voted for Al Gore. He believes global warming is man caused. I do NOT like George Bush. He has resisted the theory that global warming is man caused. Therefore, for me, the science is simple: Global Warming Is Caused By Man!

But I to tell you the truth I don't really know for sure, maybe I'm retarded or something. But I would like to get past the general argumant and hear some specific responses to the presentation of this television program the captain mentions. I have a few criticisms, but not enough to shoot it down.

danaeb - 4-7-2007 at 02:37 PM

I'm employed by the world's third largest oil company. If you think the oil companies don't see the writing on the wall, think again. Over the last year, they have backed off of their opposition to human-caused global warming theory and are gradually investing more and more of their oil and gas profits in clean technologies. Ditto the large global insurers, who have seen the same writing for the last 2-3 years and consider global warming the number one threat the the health of their industry. When you begin to have market shifts as large as this, you will have a world-wide movement.

California's global warming initiative is going to create intense competition for new green technology investment in the state.

And I would pose a question: who here doesn't recycle? That was a movement started years ago by the evil environmentalists, that is now so much a part of our lives it's become personal as well a public policy.

As Sculpin says, "change is good."

Osprey - 4-7-2007 at 02:43 PM

Don, I can't speak to the TV piece but I have read dozens of articles about brand new science about the sun and the forces of the universe that are most convincing indeed that this is a cycle the earth has seen many times (just like the many, many ice ages). We are just now gathering (every hour of every day) data from space probes that give us new foundations upon which to base brand new scientific conclusions -- for example we have very recently learned sunspots are giant holes in the sun. Ask yourself what force pushes in the mantle of that big furnace. For as long as we have studied the sun we have concluded those spots were solar flares.

Mexitron - 4-7-2007 at 03:27 PM

The earth has seen dramatic temperature fluctuation in its history...ice core samples taken from the Greenland ice cap for the last 100,000 years show a quite variable climate--its only in the last 10,000 years that the climate has been rather benign; coincindentally, that's when the population of man began clearing significant amounts of grazing land with fire as well as slash and burn culture--as a Caltech professor suggested--it may even be possible that man caused this last period to moderate by increasing the relative amount of CO2. Or it may be that the benign period allowed man to flourish. We just don't know. But if the temps are increasing due to man or not there will be consequences. Alternative fuels are competitive with oil at the current price so why not wean ourselves off some of that oil--as has been suggested--we can become a world leader in new technologies and make money off of it.

Packoderm - 4-7-2007 at 05:23 PM

If you think about it, the ozone was eaten away at the polar regions first. Perhaps these types of environmental phenomena's effects are concentrated at the poles of our earth which would be consequential because that's where all the ice is. Apparently, even a couple of degrees increase in global temperature could be enough to melt enough of the polar caps to result in altered thermodynamics of our oceans which then causes all kinds of effects such as an increase in frequency, duration, and magnitude of hurricanes, and an increase in shoreline water depths which could be problematic for people who own property along the coastal regions of Baja.

Years before the formation of radical polarization of ideologies concerning global warming, I remember scientists predicting that the warming of our earth would result in some areas that would actually have lower temperatures due to altered marine layers. As a whole, I would lean toward practicing caution in mankind's actions concerning the environment unless I had a vested interest to do otherwise, or if my ideologies rested on aiding those who have such vested interests lest I appear to favor the idle rather than the industrious. There are distinct examples in our history where factions, especially ruling and societally privileged factions, disfavor the opinion of the scientific community. This is nothing new.

Maybe as a worst case strategy, it would be prudent to invest in land that will become shore front property in the future while it is still inexpensive because once ice reaches a melting temperature, it melts relatively rapidly from that point forward.

bancoduo - 4-7-2007 at 05:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
If you think about it, the ozone was eaten away at the polar regions first. Perhaps these types of environmental phenomena's effects are concentrated at the poles of our earth which would be consequential because that's where all the ice is. Apparently, even a couple of degrees increase in global temperature could be enough to melt enough of the polar caps to result in altered thermodynamics of our oceans which then causes all kinds of effects such as an increase in frequency, duration, and magnitude of hurricanes, and an increase in shoreline water depths which could be problematic for people who own property along the coastal regions of Baja.

Years before the formation of radical polarization of ideologies concerning global warming, I remember scientists predicting that the warming of our earth would result in some areas that would actually have lower temperatures due to altered marine layers. As a whole, I would lean toward practicing caution in mankind's actions concerning the environment unless I had a vested interest to do otherwise, or if my ideologies rested on aiding those who have such vested interests lest I appear to favor the idle rather than the industrious. There are distinct examples in our history where factions, especially ruling and societally privileged factions, disfavor the opinion of the scientific community. This is nothing new.

Maybe as a worst case strategy, it would be prudent to invest in land that will become shore front property in the future while it is still inexpensive because once ice reaches a melting temperature, it melts relatively rapidly from that point forward.
Check with Capt. Mike. I understand he is developing a container ship terminal and marina just outside of Phoenix. THE FUTURE IS NOW!:o;)

Packoderm - 4-7-2007 at 05:53 PM

I didn't think that anybody was going to actually read all that. Thanks.

bancoduo - 4-7-2007 at 06:54 PM

It was well worth reading. Good points.

woody with a view - 4-7-2007 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

And I would pose a question: who here doesn't recycle?



i turned 7 trashcans full of cans, plastics, and glass into $67 today.;D

[Edited on 4-8-2007 by woody in ob]

bancoduo - 4-7-2007 at 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
Quote:

And I would pose a question: who here doesn't recycle?



i turned 7 trashcans full of cans, plastics, and glass into $67 today.;D

[Edited on 4-8-2007 by woody in ob]
Typical OB. Congrats. from the armpit of the world.:lol:

Capt. George - 4-8-2007 at 06:07 AM

Anyone know if they make a Baja Hybrid?:lol: Are they able to tow your boats?


if you think "man" (you) are the cause of this Global Warming...what are you doing with all the toys you have??:light: get rid of em, now! ya really want it both ways don't ya? Sorry it don't work that way.:no:

The Sculpin - 4-8-2007 at 07:28 AM

OK Capt. I think I get it now, and your are either trying to be funny or are clueless . It's probably the former. I think your wrong in thinking the solution lies with an an/off switch. I can believe that "man" has a part in global warming but also not feel compelled to get rid of my "toys". Especially if there's no available alternative. What I can do is look at my "toys" more carefully and see if I can do the same things in a different way....and maybe even make it better (and maybe make some tidy scratch to boot)! As my momma used to say, "Don't go for perfection, go for improvement". It's kinda like a baja rig. The more trips you take, the better you feel about the improvements you made to your rig, only to have baja stmite you down for the dog that you are for not preparing for the most recent disaster. Hey, that's it! The solution to global warming needs to take the same approach as improving your baja rig! We all know we'll never have the perfect baja rig, but damn...it's fun trying!!!!:bounce:

Capt. George - 4-8-2007 at 09:21 AM

at 61 and all the battles I've faced in my life dealing with pseudo-environmentalists, I assure you, I am far from "clueless"...

Back in the eighties I formed an organization of over 300 members fighting the Dept of Interior/C.C.Nat'l Seashore trying to keep them from "stealing" our beaches..long story, all bullchit! Lost it all anyway for non-scientific crap'. Lost mostly due to the lobbying power of a number of Environmental Groups/Real Estate Tycoons.........

Wrote numerous articles, endless meetings fighting the establishment of the Florida Keys Nat'l Marine Sanctuary........"we promise we only want an inch" another farce, another robbery of the people that actually care about the environment, the people that actually get off their asses and use it...

Oh honey, come look at the TV, people are driving on the beaches of Cape Cod, let's send money to stop that! But dear, we've never been to Cape Cod, we know nothing about that...Yeah, but look what Audobob says, how could they be wrong? quick Ralph, the checkbook....then please "change the channel!"

I have a nine yr old grandaughter, born and being raised on the Cape. She will never get to see all that I have seen simply due to the phony diatribe spewed forth by self serving phonies looking for another paycheck and pension plan...as ever, it all comes down to MONEY!

the perfect Baja rig....let the creeps get in down here and you won't being needing one anyway. good luck, I'm done! Capt George

How many battles you been in? Ever deal with the Interior Dept "Goon Squad"? Bet you don't even believe they have one. They do and they suck!

David K - 4-8-2007 at 08:38 PM

Okay, for those of you who think man can cause (or halt) global warming, how do you explain past warming and cooling... BEFORE man was here?

How do you explain how the earth is still livable after VOLCANIC eruptions... which one can pump out MORE ozone depleting gasses than man could ever dream of... and they have been erupting every year for eternity...???

The world may be warming or it may be cooling... it all depends on 'compared to when' in history. The world is billions of years old and we have only been around a few thousand... and taking temperatures for a couple hundred or less... Tell me, what is normal?

Change happens... we may not like it, but don't lose your head over this silly hype.

Again, it was 30 years ago or so that the headlines said the world was going into a new ice age and they were explaing ways to warm the planet!

If you want believe it is warming (despite this year's record cold temps) and to blame CO2 or other gasses, then figure how to put a muffler on a volcano! To say the USA isn't doing enough or paying enough or is living too well, watch out! They want to steal more of your freedom and put it in their pocket.

New, clean technology is great... I am all for better milage vehicles and recycling... The oil companies want to take advantage of the hype and sell 'cleaner' products' to make money... It is what businesses do to stay in business... They need to do all they can since government makes 4 times or more per gallon (via taxes) than the oil companies do.

Peace!

Skipjack Joe - 4-8-2007 at 10:24 PM

Most of what we know is based upon faith. We spend 12 years of schooling accepting as fact things which hundreds of years of mankind have unraveled.

Imagine reading about Galileo's assertions in the 16th century that the earth rorates around the sun instead of the other way around. Why it's so obvious he's wrong. Just look up and see for yourself.

Do you really think the global warming scientists aren't aware of natural global changes that occur over the centuries?

As lencho says, none of us are qualified to refute one argument or the other.

Time will tell. Things will become clearer and more obvious in the following decades. There's no need to back one side or the other. The truth will reveal itself.

Meanwhile ... I have a sudoku to solve ;D

[Edited on 4-9-2007 by Skipjack Joe]

bajadogs - 4-8-2007 at 11:00 PM

I side with the scientists. Thousands of scientists.
The video that inspired this thread is garbage and has been debunked by real scientists.

Move this to Off-Topic so I can say what I really think.

Packoderm - 4-8-2007 at 11:42 PM

"Move this to Off-Topic so I can say what I really think."
But then we would get comments from only a small number of extremely polarized members. I have been impressed with the level of discussion on this thread.

As for who to believe, I'd tend to side with the scientists who are not being spoon-fed money in order to propagate particular findings. This would not be true science anyway.

Taco de Baja - 4-9-2007 at 08:16 AM

I’m still waiting for the "1,000 of scientists" to tell us what caused the global warming period from 18,000 to 10,000 year ago that melted most of the glaciers that covered what is now Canada and the United States; resulting in catastrophic seal level changes on the order of 300 feet....Can you say coastal flooding! And did this coastal flooding wipe out the mangrove swamps? The tidal pools? The estuary nurseries?.... No!

However, All was not tea and crumpets, as this period did see mass die off of Ice Age Animals, from most continents except Africa. Why? Climate change, of course.

Imagine, climate changing, sea level rising, some animals becoming extinct, ecosystems altering, all without mankind's help!

Climate change happens, always has, always will. And as it does, new ecosystems will set them selves up. What was once a glacial field, becomes tundra, then a forest, and maybe next a desert. But in several 1,000 years the desert may again change into a forest then into tundra, then, once again be beneath 500 feet of ice.

And if you notice, to get away from the naysayer, the Man-Caused-Global-Warming Crowd has changed their title to a catch all phrase: "Climate Change" so they can blame mankind on parts of the world that are becoming both cooler and warmer; dryer, as well as wetter....etc.

Man sure has a big ego is all I can say. :smug:

David K - 4-9-2007 at 08:35 AM

Well said Taco!

Frigatebird - 4-9-2007 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
I’m still waiting for the "1,000 of scientists" to tell us what caused the global warming period from 18,000 to 10,000 year ago that melted most of the glaciers that covered what is now Canada and the United States; resulting in catastrophic seal level changes on the order of 300 feet....Can you say coastal flooding!
OK, science is still working on this one, BUT:



Quote:
And did this coastal flooding wipe out the mangrove swamps? The tidal pools? The estuary nurseries?.... No!
Of course it caused the destruction of the existing communities. Only a gradual rise of the waters and any adaptations the species possessed, allowed the communities to relocate. However, some species still may have become extinct from this natural event. The rate of the change is what should concern people today. If the consensus holds true, the time to adapt will test large numbers of creatures.




Quote:
However, All was not tea and crumpets, as this period did see mass die off of Ice Age Animals, from most continents except Africa. Why? Climate change, of course.
Do you discount the "rise of modern man" as a likely factor in the disapperance of large animals? Man arrives in the Americas, then the megafauna disappear. Same in Australia many years before. Climate change only accelerated man's migration into new areas.




Quote:
Imagine, climate changing, sea level rising, some animals becoming extinct, ecosystems altering, all without mankind's help!
Granted, life on earth goes on. Over 99% of all the species that have ever existed are now gone, and we cannot take credit. The significance now is there is a growing body of evidence human activities are affecting the earth's climate, and the rate of extinction is perhaps higher now than ever.




Quote:
Climate change happens, always has, always will. And as it does, new ecosystems will set them selves up. What was once a glacial field, becomes tundra, then a forest, and maybe next a desert. But in several 1,000 years the desert may again change into a forest then into tundra, then, once again be beneath 500 feet of ice.
I just hope we all have time to adjust. The consequence of failure isn't pleasant.




Quote:
And if you notice, to get away from the naysayer, the Man-Caused-Global-Warming Crowd has changed their title to a catch all phrase: "Climate Change" so they can blame mankind on parts of the world that are becoming both cooler and warmer; dryer, as well as wetter....etc.
I noticed that as well. More politics than concern, at least from those with their hat in the ring.




Quote:
Man sure has a big ego is all I can say. :smug:
This same ego tells a man that a woman half is age loves him for who he is; that his shortness of breath is nothing to worry about; that the earth is the center of the solar system; that the sun is the center of the universe; that denial is a river in Egypt.:P

[Edited on 4-9-2007 by Frigatebird]

The Sculpin - 4-9-2007 at 10:49 AM

I'm really perplexed. I find it very, very difficult to believe the arguement that man has had absolutely no impact on the rate of change in the climate of th earth. As frigate said....man wipes out the entire european forest..man dams large rivers..man eats spieces to the verge of extinction, and all this has no impact?!? It's like saying a rock thrown into a pond does not dreate ripples. OK..I understand the counterpoint....the pond naturally has much larger stones thrown in all the time, so man's tiny pebbles have very little effect. Well, I fear that mans pebbles are now the size of rocks, and are getting bigger much quicker than we realize. The other counterpoint is what good would all our efforts be if one volcano can just push the whole thing over the edge? Hmmm...it's a rather specious arguement to delay doing something based on the probability of a catastrophic event. We don't accept that arguement from our kids, why would we accept them from adults?
I still marvel at the fact that many countries who are at odds with each other came together to support and agree on a position paper to deal with this issue.

Taco de Baja - 4-9-2007 at 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Frigatebird
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja


And did this coastal flooding wipe out the mangrove swamps? The tidal pools? The estuary nurseries?.... No!
Of course it caused the destruction of the existing communities. Only a gradual rise of the waters and any adaptations the species possessed, allowed the communities to relocate. However, some species still may have become extinct from this natural event. The rate of the change is what should concern people today. If the consensus holds true, the time to adapt will test large numbers of creatures.



I would not really call an average of 3 feet per 100 years gradual....And since this is an average, some centuries may have seen 2-3 times that rate….

And yes, many plants and animals went extinct during the SL rise, but many also moved with the changing climate, to the new location of their preferred ecosystem. For example, there used to be Redwood trees in Los Angeles 40,000+ years ago (I have found their trunks on construction projects in the course of my job as a paleontologist)...Where are they now? They "moved" to areas that they liked better...and the areas where they live now, probably would not have been hospitable to them at the time.

Yes, man can and does change the environment to suit his needs. But nature is powerful too. Look at Mexico; in 1492 when Columbus sailed the ocean blue, there were thriving cities throughout what is now Mexico, huge swaths of jungle had been cleared for the cities as well as the farms to feed the people....after a few short 100 years the jungle has reclaimed the area so much that new archaeological discoveries are being made all the time. Even to the extent that was once thought to be a natural hill turns out to be a huge pyramid reclaimed by the jungle.

The Sculpin - 4-9-2007 at 01:35 PM

Are you anticipating an extremely large decline in the human population in the near future? In both examples cited, there either was no human involvement, or human involvement ceased, allowing "nature" to take over. Guess what...we ARE nature, and we HAVE taken over! Nature will not be able to reclaim anything until we are gone.

and retireing to baja doesn't count......

Frigatebird - 4-9-2007 at 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
....after a few short 100 years [of abandonment] the jungle has reclaimed the area so much that new archaeological discoveries are being made all the time.
Therein lies a possible, if not practical solution. And maybe a lesson.

I agree nature is powerful. But mankind is part of nature, and certainly not exempt from its rules. We push on the system, and it responds. At some point, perhaps already reached, the system's response will begin to impress us. How long do we wait for a definitive answer that convinces all of us we've made our bed?

[Edited on 4-9-2007 by Frigatebird]

Very adult conversation

Sharksbaja - 4-9-2007 at 02:28 PM

I am impressed with the clarity on both sides of the issue. Many good strong points on both fields. You've pretty much convinced me you all are correct.
There is little doubt that man has changed the world physically and biologically. Just how much influence have we had is still not hard data. Best to be smart, act smart and future our race with cleaner better resources. Were at a point in physics where we will see exponential discoveries with keys to this end. The shame is that that effort is so stifled by big govt and business. When these new resources become profitable and feasible we will see huge changes that will affect us at the ground level.
We have not persued alternatives as fervently as we should have. I hope our children use their wits to augment the damage we keep inflicting upon ourselves.

Don Alley - 4-9-2007 at 03:06 PM

So I am still not entirely convinced what man's role is in the current "climate change."

And should we reach (or maybe we have reached) a concensus that we must act, I'm not convinced that we can.

But I am also concerned by another aspect of this debate. Through most of the 20th century, science had a powerful position in the western world. In a fraction of that century we went from Kitty Hawk to the Moon on the backs of science and engineering. But now I wonder if we have entered a new Dark Ages, a medieval-like period where true science is eclipsed by a faith-based politics and economics.

Science has become too complex for many, and too expensive for the emergence of a modern day Edison emerging from a basement laboratory. Science is dependent on government and corporate funding; even most university research now dependent on outside grants. The allegation of this film is not just that the climate change debate has been distorted, but that we no longer can depend on Science to guide us, untainted by corruption.

Capt. George - 4-9-2007 at 03:22 PM

Don, you said a mouthful!, however,

that most certainly pertains to both sides of the fence. I'm sure you agree?

David K - 4-9-2007 at 03:55 PM

Great level headed debate here...

I think everyone can appreciate this open minded discussion.

If a conservative can agree that improving fuel consumption, lower emissions and enviromental care-taking is good.... and a liberal can agree that 'global warming' not only is natural if it is even happening, but is also political idea, then we can do great things together!

Heck, they can't even play baseball in Cleavland because of the record COLD and snowfall, this year!:rolleyes:

Global Warming in Cleveland

MrBillM - 4-9-2007 at 05:38 PM

The Cleveland Indians were Snowed out for the Fourth Straight Day and are moving their remaining games to Milwaukee (indoors).

Capt. George - 4-9-2007 at 05:41 PM

ah, MrBillM

where have you been hiding?

bufeo - 4-9-2007 at 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
..
Heck, they can't even play baseball in Cleavland [sic]because of the record COLD and snowfall, this year!:rolleyes:


Yes, this is a worthwhile discussion, but it's Cleveland, DK. :rolleyes:

David K - 4-9-2007 at 07:47 PM

Thanks Bufeo...:light:

It isn't in Baja, so I didn't care as much how it is spelled!;D

bufeo - 4-9-2007 at 08:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Thanks Bufeo...:light:

It isn't in Baja, so I didn't care as much how it is spelled!;D


That's good enough for me. :biggrin:

Packoderm - 4-9-2007 at 09:03 PM

One thing I keep hearing here is how one volcano can spew more greenhouse gas in a short time than countless cars and factories can in a year. But one thing to consider is that in addition to gasses, volcanoes also spew out lava which eventually becomes fertile soil on which vegetation can grow to clean the air which helps balance things out. "The fertile soil is a result of the breakdown of various minerals - such as olivine, pyroxene, amphibole, and feldspar (the essential ingredients of volcanic ash and lava) which releases iron, magnesium, potassium etc to the soil." I doubt the same can be said for our tailpipes and smokestacks.
http://sio.ucsd.edu/volcano/volcano_qa/advanced.html

Also, volcano eruptions cause a sort of "nuclear winter" which cools much of the earth as what happened with the eruption of Mt. Saint Hellens. Of course you could take this one step further like Thomas C. Greene proposes by bombing Earth's atmosphere with sulfur by firing artillery shells in the air to create "global dimming" to combat global warming. "There is evidence suggesting that recent efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions has caused a spike in global temperatures over the past decade. Without our protective layer of industrial pollutants, the Earth's atmosphere is now reflecting less solar radiation, and temperatures are rising. We could be rendering the planet uninhabitable just because we're afraid of a little shmutz in the air. "The message, then, that air pollution is good for the Earth, will no doubt resonate deeply with the Bush administration. And while the Bushies have been hostile toward the idea of global warming, certainly the idea of attacking a complicated problem with heavy artillery will appeal to them so strongly that we might see some action soon."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/01/an_artificial_volcan...

Bajafun777 - 4-9-2007 at 09:08 PM

It's always our fault for wanting more and more, but then isn't it their fault for wanting us to give more and more. Our problem is we have let the winos, dinos, and dingbats get into positions of authority along with making our choices resulting in our lives getting tougher. Yes, we have utilized all that we can get our hands on in fuel consumption but look at the rainforest being burnt to become crop areas or construction sites. We have developed more and more ways to utilize solar equipment and hydrogen development to meet more and more of our needs. I have seen what solar is able to do for those homeowners that use systems to get what they need and put the rest into the electrical system. Additionally, they get a nice little sell back fee to their advantage. We have also pushed a lot of our farming land out of service which was helping our environment by the crops making the cycle work. We are on the right paths to take on the challenge of weather change but folks we will not see it in our life time either way!! I started to get depressed thinking about all of this and the ruin of the world. However, I came to my senses and popped opened a cold one that always seems to make the day end so much better with the world still turning:tumble::lol:. No fight, Be Happy~~~~Later---------bajafun777

bajadogs - 4-9-2007 at 10:16 PM

Spotty record cold temps and snowfall do not disprove man-made global warming. Day-to-day weather watching is like predicting a chaotic pendulum. The scientists, who have documented the amount of man-made carbon introduced into our thin atmosphere, would be horribly disturbed that one would argue that the delay of a baseball game negates decades of research.

DavidK,
I am also glad this discussion has been civil.
You typed-
Quote:
a liberal can agree that 'global warming' not only is natural if it is even happening, but is also political idea


While 'global warming' has been politically leveraged like terrorism, security, healthcare, education, immigration etc., it was not spawned as a 'political idea' as you say. It is science and is way too complex to be dismissed as 'politics'. Sometimes there is no political agenda.

I wish there was as much skeptisism about another "threat" over 4 years ago.

peace to all nomads

rogerj1 - 4-9-2007 at 10:45 PM

Well put Lencho. With something this difficult to get your hands around, there's going to be extreme reactions on every side of the issue. This is the scientific version of Armagedon for crying out loud!

The conspiracy theorists will come up with elaborate coverups.
Those not willing to deal with it will make fun of the science and turn this into an Al Gore issue.
The overly dramatic will make predictions using questionable science.
The rest of us will fall somewhere in between.

David K - 4-9-2007 at 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadogs
Spotty record cold temps and snowfall do not disprove man-made global warming. Day-to-day weather watching is like predicting a chaotic pendulum. The scientists, who have documented the amount of man-made carbon introduced into our thin atmosphere, would be horribly disturbed that one would argue that the delay of a baseball game negates decades of research.

DavidK,
I am also glad this discussion has been civil.
You typed-
Quote:
a liberal can agree that 'global warming' not only is natural if it is even happening, but is also political idea


While 'global warming' has been politically leveraged like terrorism, security, healthcare, education, immigration etc., it was not spawned as a 'political idea' as you say. It is science and is way too complex to be dismissed as 'politics'. Sometimes there is no political agenda.

I wish there was as much skeptisism about another "threat" over 4 years ago.

peace to all nomads


N-zi Germany didn't attack us either, but our involvement to rid the world of Hitler was the right thing to do...

Now, back to the topic of global warming in Baja...

Actually 'Global Warming' is a religion, because science never closes the discussion to new findings and discoveries. The 'warmies' do not accept any science that shows the world is neither warming abnormally or man made.

It is a religion that cannot be disputed or they go nuts... The world has warmed and cooled over and over without man... If it is warming again, it wouldn't matter if man was here or not.

In fact it has been warming for some 10,000 years... If anything, the trend would be to begin cooling. We know the ice pack covered much of North America... and sea levels were lower (how ancient people walked to Alaska from Siberia).

Before then, the world was warmer, sea levels were higher (see fossil shells far from the sea in Baja)... This was a few million years ago... no man made pollution then.

Getting you all worked up or changing your life or getting votes is what politicians want.

Use some common sense, look at the facts, live well, live happy... Don't worry the sky isn't falling (or warming too much)!

bajadogs - 4-10-2007 at 12:49 AM

Woe DavidK,
"Global Warming" is a religion? Where did this come from? Seriously, religion?
Who teaches you these mythes?
AM radio lies reach deep into Baja.

Capt. George - 4-10-2007 at 04:49 AM

bufeo

it's a hell of a lot better then Filadelfia!

jeez what did I start here? I don't know what to do anymore.

I have my Air Conditioner and Heating System running at the same time?!?!

Osprey - 4-10-2007 at 06:39 AM

George, I believe for the Eastern/Southern Pacific (Baja) if Global warming is occuring, thermohaline forces far outweigh anthropogenic causes. I think I can prove it. I'd bet a case of Ballenas on it. You just have to give me some time to find some dots, then find a way to connect them.

Taco de Baja - 4-10-2007 at 07:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadogs
Spotty record cold temps and snowfall do not disprove man-made global warming. Day-to-day weather watching is like predicting a chaotic pendulum. The scientists, who have documented the amount of man-made carbon introduced into our thin atmosphere, would be horribly disturbed that one would argue that the delay of a baseball game negates decades of research.


There are decades of research showing man has no hand in global warming too. Are you discounting these scientists??

Plus if the temperature at game time was 110* because of a freak heat wave, the global warming crowd would use this one day of "evidence" that man really was causing global warming...You KNOW they would!


Also, there is new evidence from ice cores in Greenland that long term weather is like your chaotic pendulum...it can not be accurately predicted either. Meaning computer models of climate change looking into the future almost worthless.

Quote:
Severe climate changes during the last ice-age could have been caused by random chaotic variations on Earth and not governed by external periodic influences from the Sun. This has been shown in new calculations by a researcher at the Niels Bohr Institute, Copenhagen University.

The ice archive shows that the climate has experienced very severe changes during the glacial period. During the glacial period there were 26 abrupt temperature increases of about 7-10 degrees. These glacial warm periods are named Dansgaard-Oeschger events after the two scientists first observing them.

Temperature increased by 10 degrees in less than 50 years :o [all without our help] with changes to the ocean currents and the whole ecosystem. These changes have caused sea level rises up to perhaps as much as 8 meters and large changes to the vegetation.

The global warming we experience presently will cause a temperature increase of perhaps 2-5 degrees in the next century [that's a lot less than 10 degrees in 50 years] if greenhouse gas emissions continue, researchers claim.

The 26 climate shifts are apparently periodic. They seem to occur with a period of 1470 years. Every now and then a period is skipped and the shifts occur 3-4000 years apart. Professor Peter Ditlevsen at the Niels Bohr Institute, Copenhagen University wanted to investigate the periodicity of the climate shifts. He asked: "Could it be that the shifts are chaotic and random, they just look periodic by pure coincidence. How probable is that?"

Using mathematical models of the climate shifts he calculated the probability of the periodicity. He focused on the time intervals between the climate shifts. How regular are they really? As a baton, periodically beating, how far from the beating are the climate shifts? If the distances are perfectly periodic 100% is obtained. It turned out that the climate shifts hit the beats of the baton by 70%.


He then had the computer spreading the shifts over the ice age randomly. He did this 1000 times with different random time intervals. In this he got between 40% and 90% right hits. The major part of the calculations was between 55% and 75%.

Then he calculated the opposite assumption, that the climate shifts has a period. Again he made 1000 calculations, but this time the numbers came out between 80% and 100%. The major part came out above 90%. But 90% is not the regularity for the real climate changes, they occur with 70%.

The conclusion drawn by Peter Ditlevsen is that the probability of hitting 70% is less if the climate shifts are periodic than if they are random. This is very important for understanding the cause of the climate changes and especially for predicting climate shifts. If they are random and chaotic they are fundamentally unpredictable.


Science Daily Link

Crusoe - 4-10-2007 at 07:55 AM

Weall agree that something big is definately happening.......Lets give our "Scientists" alot of credit for discovering what is really happening in regards to what we are putting into our atmosphere each day and each week and each year!!......Our planet is puking its guts out from greenhouse gasses.Global carbon dioxide emissions each year are increasing at an advanced rate.As measureed, we humans released 32 billion tons of carbon dioxide into planet earths atmosphere.....Of the 12 hottest years on record,11 occured between 1995 and 2006. There is an overwhelming amount scientific information that is true and correct that shows a very pointed focus to facts and documented data thatthat all scientists of every type agree on, and mankind is causung this.There is no doubt as to what is happening, regardless if you like it or disagree.The key concept is adaption.There has been a new world order developing in the alternitive energy fields that will emerge as the new world leaders. This all makes for a very positive good change and is exciting to read about and watch. We are still living very much in the dark ages------ driving atound on rubber tires, starting our vehicles with batteries developed in the 1800's and still mainly using incandascent ligthbulbs also invented in the same era. And burning way to much fossil fuels from the same late way archaic 1800 technology.Maybe your grandkids will inherit a better, cleaner world to grow up in and all the little living things like birds, fish and plants can continue to survive. As hopefully we humans will. Adaption!!!!!!:wow::wow:

The Sculpin - 4-10-2007 at 07:57 AM

Whoa!!!

This is where I have to leave the discussion.....for it is no longer a reasoned, rational one.

Science is not religion, and those who confuse the two do a disservice to both.
Science, while imperfect, is built on an ever changing body of knowledge which serves to support conclusions. The body of knowledge changes, the conclusions change. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone today disputing the theory of gravity...
Religion is based in faith, and it supports its conclusions with dogma.
I feel the 2 can coexist perfectly. One picks up where the other leaves off.

I would encourage all to read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It is a very interesting book for both the believer and the non-believer wich looks at the subject in a very respectful and thoughtful way.

Adios y aloha

David K - 4-10-2007 at 08:11 AM

You have to have an open mind and not 'run away' because facts (like what Taco de Baja posted) or common sense interfere with you belief (ie. religion) that the world is abnormally warming due to mankind... specifically the United States.

Crusoe, when a volcano erupts a whole lot more carbon and sulfur gasses are released... nature handles it. Again, high temperatures 'on record'... mean what? The record keeping has only been around since thermometers were invented. How old is the world?

30 years ago those kinds of scientists had people believing a new ice age was coming (it is, someday)...

Don't be fooled into the hype... the sky isn't falling.

There's nothing wrong with inventing and using better products and less pollution is good.

Packoderm - 4-10-2007 at 08:33 AM

David, about the volcanoes, read my last post on this thread. Well, not this post being my last post but the one before this one. But I'll sum it up here. Volcanoes don't just spew gasses; they also shoot out lava which turns into very fertile soil which brings about vegetation which absorbs these types of gasses. In the long term, there is a bit of a balance in that equation.

Taco de Baja - 4-10-2007 at 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crusoe
....Of the 12 hottest years on record,11 occured between 1995 and 2006.....


Only if you hand select your data points.... I can easily pull temp records from select locations around the globe "proving" the Earth is cooling between 1995 and 2006..... :rolleyes:

The Earth is a complex place, some areas get cooler, some get hotter, some get wetter some get dryer.


Quote:
COPENHAGEN, Denmark, March 15 (UPI) -- A Danish scientist said the idea of a "global temperature" and global warming is more political than scientific.

University of Copenhagen Professor Bjarne Andresen has analyzed the topic in collaboration with Canadian Professors Christopher Essex from the University of Western Ontario and Ross McKitrick of the University of Guelph.

It is generally assumed the Earth's atmosphere and oceans have grown warmer during the recent 50 years because of an upward trend in the so-called global temperature, which is the result of complex calculations and averaging of air temperature measurements taken around the world.

"It is impossible to talk about a single temperature for something as complicated as the climate of Earth," said Andresen, an expert on thermodynamics. "A temperature can be defined only for a homogeneous system. Furthermore, the climate is not governed by a single temperature. Rather, differences of temperatures drive the processes and create the storms, sea currents, thunder, etc. which make up the climate".

He says the currently used method of determining the global temperature -- and any conclusion drawn from it -- is more political than scientific.

The argument is presented in the Journal of Non-Equilibrium Thermodynamics.


Link

Devoutly Liberal Druids

MrBillM - 4-10-2007 at 09:44 AM

IF any of the Lefty Loons took seriously the Baseball Comments, it only goes to show how obsessive they are about their Earth worship.

The comments were a flippant response to the consistent tendency of the Latter-Day Druids to note every instance of an unusually high temperature as Proof of their Global Warming "Theories".

Cypress - 4-10-2007 at 09:55 AM

Global Warming?:o Weather changes are observed hour by hour and day to day. Climate changes are measured in terms of milleniums.:yes: It doesn't take a PHD to realize weather and climate undergo changes.:D The climate has been changing long before humans could have had any impact one way or the other, in fact it changed before we were ever even on earth. :D

The sky is falling, the sky is falling

Sharksbaja - 4-10-2007 at 12:08 PM

Yep, more rain.

David K - 4-10-2007 at 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
David, about the volcanoes, read my last post on this thread. Well, not this post being my last post but the one before this one. But I'll sum it up here. Volcanoes don't just spew gasses; they also shoot out lava which turns into very fertile soil which brings about vegetation which absorbs these types of gasses. In the long term, there is a bit of a balance in that equation.


Yes, I read it the first time... volcanoes make NEW land!

Yes, the lava eventually breaks down and plants will grow in it... in time (a long time) the volcanic soil is very rich for farms and vegetation to grow in... in time.

When a volcano erupts all those millions of tons of pollutants go into the atmosphere RIGHT NOW... the new plant growth that will make some oxygen is going to happen LATER.

All that is well and good, and all that is really A-OK... Because all that is NATURAL. What man adds to the atmosphere along with the cattle farts the eco-wack jobs are trying to stop, is really so minor that the change would not be measurable...

I am not a scientist, I am just a common sense person who likes to base ideas on details, facts and logic NOT hype and emotion.

Please read everything Taco de Baja has contributed to this thread and have a logical debate with that.

PEACE!

Packoderm - 4-10-2007 at 06:26 PM

Thanks David.

bajadogs - 4-10-2007 at 10:46 PM

taco
Quote:
There are decades of research showing man has no hand in global warming too. Are you discounting these scientists??


Show me one scientist, give me the name and credentials - just one scientist who has decades of research who can show that man has had no effect on global warming. I will wait.

Frigatebird - 4-10-2007 at 11:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm...Also, volcano eruptions cause a sort of "nuclear winter" which cools much of the earth as what happened with the eruption of Mt. Saint Hellens...
..."There is evidence suggesting that recent efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions has caused a spike in global temperatures over the past decade. Without our protective layer of industrial pollutants, the Earth's atmosphere is now reflecting less solar radiation, and temperatures are rising...
I remember watching the 1991 solar eclipse from near El Conejo. The sunsets and sunrises during that time were noticeably more orange-red. The eruption of Mt. Pinatubo a month earlier was said to be the cause. It was the largest eruption of the 20th century, or so I've read. The ash and aerosol particles that circled the globe, not only made for spectacular sky shows, but also affected lower and upper atmospheric temperatures in the months following. The effect of the aerosols appears to be significant, and therefore vulcanism's contribution to global climate change:rolleyes:...oops, global warming, seems to be a mixed bag.

For those doubting the power of humanity, there was an interesting data set collected in the days immediately following 9/11. During the national aviation stoppage, the difference between high & low temperatures at many locations in the U.S. increased. Once planes began flying again, the temperature differences settled back to previous trends. The effect seen during those quiet sky times was said to be caused by a more transparent atmosphere, allowing more sunlight to reach the surface during the day making it warmer, and fewer insulating aerosol-formed clouds during the night making it cooler. Now admittedly, I believe the BBC produced the program; but if we can affect the weather in such short order,... ?

Skeet/Loreto - 4-11-2007 at 06:16 AM

And the Saga goes on!

Another "Fear" article delivered by one Julie Watson of the Associated Press in todays News.
This time it is predicted by 2050--2080- 70 Million People will starve- all the Rain Forests in Brazil will be gone- All the ice Caps will have Melted.

Fear among the Masses- Control by the Elite-- What a Scam!!

Skeet/Loreto

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2007 at 07:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadogs
taco
Quote:
There are decades of research showing man has no hand in global warming too. Are you discounting these scientists??


Show me one scientist, give me the name and credentials - just one scientist who has decades of research who can show that man has had no effect on global warming. I will wait.


I could provide many, but will stick to 3 papers to save on forum space.
I hope papers published in peer reviewed journals like Nature, Science, and Physics of Climate meet your qualifications…

[Sorry for the bold type, I could not get it to turn off....]



Quote:

Quote:
Reference
Bard, E. and Frank, M. 2006. Climate change and solar variability: What's new under the sun? Earth and Planetary Science Letters 248: 1-14.

What was done
The authors review what is known, and unknown, about solar variability and its effects on earth's climate, focusing on the past few decades, the past few centuries, the entire Holocene, and orbital timescales.

What was learned
Of greatest interest to us are Bard and Frank's conclusions about sub-orbital time scales, i.e., the first three of their four major focal points. Within this context, as they say in the concluding section of their review, "it appears that solar fluctuations were involved in causing widespread but limited climatic changes, such as the Little Ice Age (AD 1500-1800) that followed the Medieval Warm Period (AD 900-1400)." Or as they say in the concluding sentence of their abstract, "the weight of evidence suggests that solar changes have contributed to small climate oscillations occurring on time scales of a few centuries, similar in type to the fluctuations classically described for the last millennium: The so-called Medieval Warm Period (AD 900-1400) followed on by the Little Ice Age (AD 1500-1800)."

What it means
In the words of Bard and Frank, "Bond et al. (1997, 2001) followed by Hu et al. (2003) proposed that variations of solar activity are responsible for quasi-periodic climatic and oceanographic fluctuations that follow cycles of about one to two millennia." As a result, as they continue, "the succession from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age would thus represent the last [such] cycle," leading to the conclusion that "our present climate is in an ascending phase on its way to attaining a new warm optimum," due to some form of solar variability. In addition, they note that "a recent modeling study suggests that an apparent 1500-year cycle could arise from the superimposed influence of the 90 and 210 year solar cycles on the climate system, which is characterized by both nonlinear dynamics and long time scale memory effects (Braun et al. 2005)."

Taken together, these several observations leave little need to invoke the historical increase in anthropogenic CO2 emissions as the primary cause of modern warming. In fact, they leave no such need at all, as solar influences appear to be sufficient to explain the bulk of the increase in temperature. Nevertheless, much more work is needed to clarify the specific mechanisms by which the solar-induced warming is accomplished.

References
Bond, G., Kromer, B., Beer, J., Muscheler, R., Evans, M.N., Showers, W., Hoffmann, S., Lotti-Bond, R., Hajdas, I. and Bonani, G. 2001. Persistent solar influence on North Atlantic climate during the Holocene. Science 294: 2130-2136.

Bond, G., Showers, W., Cheseby, M., Lotti, R., Almasi, P., deMenocal, P., Priore, P., Cullen, H., Hajdas, I. and Bonani, G. 1997. A pervasive millennial-scale cycle in North Atlantic Holocene and Glacial climate. Science 278: 1257-1266.

Braun, H., Christl, M., Rahmstorf, S., Ganopolski, A., Mangini, A., Kubatzki, C., Roth, K. and Kromer, B. 2005. Possible solar origin of the 1470-year glacial climate cycle demonstrated in a coupled model. Nature 438: 208-211.

Hu, F.S., Kaufman, D., Yoneji, S., Nelson, D., Shemesh, A., Huang, Y., Tian, J., Bond, G., Clegg, B. and Brown, T. 2003. Cyclic variation and solar forcing of Holocene climate in the Alaskan subarctic. Science 301: 1890-1893
CO2 Science V10 N8



Quote:

Reference
Pollack, H.N., Huang, S. and Shen, P.-Y. 1998. Climate change record in subsurface temperatures: A global perspective. Science 282: 279-281.

What was done
A history of global surface temperature over the past five centuries was reconstructed from 358 boreholes spread throughout eastern North America, central Europe, southern Africa, and Australia.

What was learned
Nearly 80% of the 358 borehole locations experienced a net warming over the past five centuries, while about 20% experienced a net cooling. The mean temperature increase over the 500-year period for all stations was approximately 1°C.

What it means
This study documents the complexity of earth's climate system, illustrating the fact that not only can the magnitude of temperature change vary widely across the surface of the planet, but that even its sign may differ from place to place. In the mean, however, the results concur with those of other recent global climate reconstructions, indicating that global temperatures have risen by about one degree Celsius over the past 500 years. However, these observations, together with contemporaneous atmospheric CO2 data, tend to argue against CO2-induced global warming.

CO2 Science V1 N4


Quote:


Reference
Maasch, K.A., Mayewski, P.A., Rohling, E.J., Stager, J.C., Karlén, W., Meeker, L.D. and Meyerson, E.A. 2005. A 2000-year context for modern climate change. Geografiska Annaler 87 A: 7-15.

What was done
Many researchers have examined historical proxy temperature changes over the past millennia and beyond in an attempt to quantify the magnitude, frequency and causes of natural climate variability. However, temperature is not always the best measure of climate, and it is certainly not the only measure. Few studies, for example, have examined the millennial range and rate of change of hydrologic and atmospheric circulation; yet changes in these parameters are important because they are involved in more than half of the earth's poleward transfer of heat (Peixoto and Oort, 1992).

In the present study, Maasch et al. attempt to remedy this deficiency by examining changes in eight well-dated high-resolution non-temperature records over the past two millennia: (1) K+ concentrations from the GISP2 ice core in Greenland, (2) Na+ concentrations from the Siple Dome ice core in Antarctica, (3) percent Ti from an ocean sediment core in the Cariaco basin, (4) Fe intensity from a marine core near the coast of mid-latitude Chile, (5) oxygen isotope fractions from Punta Laguna near the Yucatan, (6) carbon isotope data from a speleothem in Makapansgat, South Africa, (7) percent of shallow water diatoms from Lake Victoria, and (8) lake levels from Lake Naivasha in equatorial Africa. The eight data sets were then compared with a history of atmospheric 14C, a proxy for solar variability that was obtained from tree rings, to ascertain what, if any, solar influence operated on these parameters.

What was learned
Comparison of the 14C solar proxy data with the eight climate-related data sets revealed that over the past 2000 years there has been, in the authors' words, a "strong association between solar variability and globally distributed climate change." This "remarkable coherence" among the data sets was particularly noticeable in the Medieval Warm Period to Little Ice Age transition, as well as throughout the Little Ice Age.

What it means
Contrary to the strident claims of climate alarmists, the results of this study suggest that the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age were indeed global phenomena that were likely the products of natural climate variability driven by changes in solar activity. As for the Current Warm Period, we believe it to be much less due to increases in atmospheric CO2 concentration than to the natural - and likely solar-induced - recovery of the planet from the coldest period of the current interglacial, i.e., the Little Ice Age.

Reference
Peixoto, J.P. and Oort, A.H. 1992. Physics of Climate. American Institute of Physics, New York.

CO2 Science V9 N6

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2007 at 08:19 AM

One more from the news today
Quote:
April 11, 2007
MANKIND is naive to think it can influence climate change, according to a prize-winning Australian geologist.

Solar activity is a greater driver of climate change than man-made carbon dioxide, argues Ian Plimer, Professor of Mining Geology at the University of Adelaide and winner of several notable science prizes.

The next part of Prof Plimer's research was to examine the sources of carbon dioxide.

He said he found that about 0.1 per cent of the atmospheric carbon dioxide was due to human activity and much of the rest due to little-understood geological phenomena.

“It is extraordinarily difficult to argue that human-induced carbon dioxide has any effect at all,” he said.

Prof Plimer added that as the planet was already at the maximum absorbance of energy of carbon dioxide, any more would have no greater effect.

There had even been periods in history with hundreds of times more atmospheric carbon dioxide than now with no problem, he said.

“You'd be very hard pushed to find a geologist that would differ from my view,” he said. [Hey, maybe that’s why I think mankind can not change the weather :D ]

He said bad news was more fashionable now than good and that people had an innate tendency to want to be a little frightened.

But Prof Plimer conceded the politics of greenhouse gas emissions meant that attention was being given to energy efficiency, which he supported. [I agree with this too]

The professor, who is writing a book on the subject, said he only used validated scientific data, published in reputable peer-reviewed refereed journals, as the basis of his theories.
[See, there are real scientists, who publish in reputable journals, who do not see mankind's hand in global warming]


Link

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2007 at 08:34 AM

More from recent news.
Does hurricane forecaster William Gray have enough scientific credentials for you???


Quote:

Accelerated hurricane activity isn't greenhouse related

Surfersvillage Global Surf News, 10 April, 2007 : - - New Orleans --
Natural changes in ocean currents are to blame for increased Atlantic hurricane activity in recent years, not man-made global warming as many scientists believe, hurricane forecaster William Gray said on Friday.

"I think the whole human-induced greenhouse gas thing is a red herring," Gray said in a speech at the National Hurricane Conference. Gray, whose annual forecasts for the hurricane season are closely watched, said the Earth has warmed the past 30 years, but that it was due to flucuations in ocean currents. He predicted a cooling off period would begin in five to 10 years as the currents change again.

"I see climate change as due to the ocean circulation pattern. I see this as a major cause of climate change," Gray told the meteorologists and emergency management specialist who attend the annual conference. The Atlantic had destructive hurricane seasons in 2004, when four major hurricanes struck Florida, and 2005 when Katrina and Rita badly damaged the US Gulf Coast.


link



[Edited on 4-11-2007 by Taco de Baja]

Don Alley - 4-11-2007 at 09:10 AM

Good grief, so you can do a massive review of scientific records to justify the view that global warming is NOT man caused. But I would not be surprised if someone could do a review and come up with an equal number of reports and statements from reputable scientists claiming warming IS man caused.

Two Options:

Gather documents supporting each side, and weigh them with a balance scale. Heavier side wins!

Ask: What does (insert Hillary, W, Ahnold, AlGore, Bill, McCain, Rudy, Al Sharpton, Don Imus, Jay Leno, Rush, or Eric Cartman) think?

I'm with Cartman:


bajadogs - 4-11-2007 at 10:35 AM

Thanks Taco for the opinion of the weatherman.

I don't know about you but I hate being lied to.
The whole "solar activity" argument is not only outdated and selective, it's factually incorrect - intentionally misleading. That's pretty dang offensive to me.
There's something about a British accent that makes these lies believable.
Here is a professor who debunks the original propaganda piece in a logical way -


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573...

oh... be nice to me today. im 40:(

David K - 4-11-2007 at 10:42 AM

Happy Birthday bajadogs!

bajalou - 4-11-2007 at 10:44 AM

I believe Taco de Baja is pointing out that there is a great deal of respected scientific opinion that disagrees with the popularly pushed ideas that man is the major cause of climate change. And of course, if researchers don't get the correct answer sought by the funding source, no more research grants.

David K - 4-11-2007 at 10:58 AM

and if Algore doesn't sell enough movies he won't have the money to buy all the 'carbon offsets' needed to heat his huge homes or fly all over in private jets!:lol::light: Most import is the attention Algore needs from his false 'science' scaring people!:O:moon:

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2007 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
Good grief, so you can do a massive review of scientific records to justify the view that global warming is NOT man caused. But I would not be surprised if someone could do a review and come up with an equal number of reports and statements from reputable scientists claiming warming IS man caused.

Two Options:

Gather documents supporting each side, and weigh them with a balance scale. Heavier side wins!


Science by consensus is not science.

Science is about coming up with a theory and testing it using scientific methods. Not seeing which side killed more trees by weighing all the papers they wrote.

Al Gore saying "The debate on Man-caused-global-warming, is over" makes about as much sense as Bush saying, "The war is over."

Scientific theory used to believe that mountains and valleys on earth were formed by a cooling planet, much like a potato skin becoming wrinkled on a cooling baked potato.

Scientific theory used to believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, you caught polio in swimming pools, and ulcers were caused by spicy foods......

All these theories, and many more, were believed by a majority of scientists at some time. Luckily some fool did not stand up and say "The debate is over."

Don Alley - 4-11-2007 at 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja

Science by consensus is not science.

Science is about coming up with a theory and testing it using scientific methods. Not seeing which side killed more trees by weighing all the papers they wrote.

Al Gore saying "The debate on Man-caused-global-warming, is over" makes about as much sense as Bush saying, "The war is over."

Scientific theory used to believe that mountains and valleys on earth were formed by a cooling planet, much like a potato skin becoming wrinkled on a cooling baked potato.

Scientific theory used to believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, you caught polio in swimming pools, and ulcers were caused by spicy foods......

All these theories, and many more, were believed by a majority of scientists at some time. Luckily some fool did not stand up and say "The debate is over."


Agreed.

Packoderm - 4-11-2007 at 01:20 PM

Quote:
Science by consensus is not science.

Science is about coming up with a theory and testing it using scientific methods. Not seeing which side killed more trees by weighing all the papers they wrote.

Al Gore saying "The debate on Man-caused-global-warming, is over" makes about as much sense as Bush saying, "The war is over."

Scientific theory used to believe that mountains and valleys on earth were formed by a cooling planet, much like a potato skin becoming wrinkled on a cooling baked potato.

Scientific theory used to believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, you caught polio in swimming pools, and ulcers were caused by spicy foods......

All these theories, and many more, were believed by a majority of scientists at some time. Luckily some fool did not stand up and say "The debate is over."



Agreed here too.

Osprey - 4-11-2007 at 02:29 PM

Count me in as a bona fide "round earther". Sign me up for membership in the Taco de Baja Institute of level-headed thinking. Taco, thanks for the hard work, the research, the posts. I was about to go into my stranded beach coral rant but you laid it out so well it was redundant. I'd like you by my side the very next time I have another argument with anyone who says things travel faster then light.

Packoderm - 4-11-2007 at 03:31 PM

I was agreeing with his last post about the parameters of science. I don't think he actually changed anybody's mind about global warming in general. As for his research, I'll have to do some research and follow the money to see if those scientists are indeed legit.

Cypress - 4-11-2007 at 03:34 PM

Taco de Baja!:bounce:In full agreement with your post.:bounce:

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2007 at 03:56 PM

Yes, Taco I agree with your post. Why didn't I think of those points?

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2007 at 04:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadogs
Thanks Taco for the opinion of the weatherman.

I don't know about you but I hate being lied to.
The whole "solar activity" argument is not only outdated and selective, it's factually incorrect - intentionally misleading. That's pretty dang offensive to me.

Here is a professor who debunks the original propaganda piece in a logical way -

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573...

oh... be nice to me today. im 40:(


I dislike being lied to as well.

So, I am interested in your link, but your link is broken so I can not see how your prof explains how variations in solar activity have no effect on the temperatures on Earth. As far as being outdated, there are article about solar activity and correlation to temps less than a year old....Also, logic seems to say solar variations will have an effect......But logic also can say that the sun goes around the earth, the earth is flat, and planes shouldn't be able to fly..... :D

Can you provide another link or a text of his speech?


Thanks

David K - 4-11-2007 at 06:56 PM

Thanks again Taco de Baja... I will follow you in any march aginst the lies that Algore tells!

Viva Logic, truth, and mankind! :yes::tumble::lol::light:

bajadogs - 4-12-2007 at 12:13 AM

Respectfully DavidK, Taco,
"Lies that Algore tells!" -DK quote
Please disprove Al Gore. I have not seen where he has lied. I think you are just repeating "hate radio jargon"
Taco,
The link works for me. While it's old school and a bit boring it is clear that the original film was hell-bent on misrepresenting the facts.
Viva logic, truth and ...Dog Dam I hate being lied to!!!! The video which spawned this thread is embarrassing propaganda. Lots of people fell for it.

Nobody else see's that?
hello?

Taco, I'm truly trying to be civil here. I hope you can catch the video. BTW, he is not my prof. I finished college a long time ago.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573...

Conventional wisdom and/or theory

Sharksbaja - 4-12-2007 at 12:21 AM

You choose.

"I'd like you by my side the very next time I have another argument with anyone who says things travel faster then light."


Now there's a subject! Without using an open mind and using conventional theory you are absolutely right.
Would you be willing to debate that with my 25 yr old son? I think he could offer up some newfound material that could OPEN some eyes. I am not qualified to debate such a profound theory, he is. With that said would it be useless to try to convince a person so tied to a theory that maybe there is an alternative to conventional wisdom? Perhaps proof. Is your mind really made up?
How can positively endorse any theory? Now you've got my attention. Simple wisdom tells me that theory is just that, theory, not fact. The same holds true with this subject from the standpoint that we really don't know all the facts about how the sun plus all the other ingredients make up and affect planetary climate(s). To state that we do would be sticking yer neck out. Ya gotta prove it. Not an easy task eh?
Hmmmmm, I wouldn't be so darn sure that these things cannot be proven or dispelled. Maybe you are one up on Einstein. After all, he's been proven wrong before.;D

Taco, you've got a good grasp of the right side of the equation. Now, try the left side. It supposedly performs useful tasks and contributes greatly to figuring out complex scenarios. Perhaps the left and the right could somehow organize to work together intelligently and harmoniously........naw..... just a thought. Just another theory.:lol:

I'll say one thing. Folks passionate enough to delve so deeply must consider all things left and right. The issue of our existance may or may not be a part of the global climate trend. For our own friggin' good we better sort it out in an adult fashion. I ain't talkin' bout Nomads sorting it out here.:rolleyes:

But...
Why does this topic have to be so partisan? Because of Gore? Hell I haven't even seen the flick but I have personal concerns. Especially for those who live in big cities. If Gores' mission is to help slow the amount of pollution not just C02 that enters our atmosphere then I'm for it. To say it's ok to burn petrocarbons till their exhausted is dangerous and narrow-minded.

[Edited on 4-12-2007 by Sharksbaja]

bajadogs - 4-12-2007 at 12:33 AM

sorry dudes if the link is dead -
throw these words into google -
warming swindle debunk
You will find the presentation I was talking about.
Stop being lied to!

Osprey - 4-12-2007 at 06:51 AM

Sharks, your son and I would not get very far in the debate thing. I would admit I know very little (almost nothing), have no formal training -- then we would agree on Planck's Constant and other things that get in the way of measuring stuff, then we'd shake hands and be friends, each guarding his prior beliefs but respecting the rights of the other to see things another way. I am just so overwhelmed, awestruck, humbled by the weight and history of all the scientists and sciences --- the pyrimid of scientific knowledge put in place one agonizing piece after another that I am won over by it's gravity.

Mexitron - 4-12-2007 at 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
You choose.

"I'd like you by my side the very next time I have another argument with anyone who says things travel faster then light."


Now there's a subject! Without using an open mind and using conventional theory you are absolutely right.
Would you be willing to debate that with my 25 yr old son? I think he could offer up some newfound material that could OPEN some eyes. I am not qualified to debate such a profound theory, he is. With that said would it be useless to try to convince a person so tied to a theory that maybe there is an alternative to conventional wisdom? Perhaps proof. Is your mind really made up?
How can positively endorse any theory? Now you've got my attention. Simple wisdom tells me that theory is just that, theory, not fact. The same holds true with this subject from the standpoint that we really don't know all the facts about how the sun plus all the other ingredients make up and affect planetary climate(s). To state that we do would be sticking yer neck out. Ya gotta prove it. Not an easy task eh?
Hmmmmm, I wouldn't be so darn sure that these things cannot be proven or dispelled. Maybe you are one up on Einstein. After all, he's been proven wrong before.;D

Taco, you've got a good grasp of the right side of the equation. Now, try the left side. It supposedly performs useful tasks and contributes greatly to figuring out complex scenarios. Perhaps the left and the right could somehow organize to work together intelligently and harmoniously........naw..... just a thought. Just another theory.:lol:

I'll say one thing. Folks passionate enough to delve so deeply must consider all things left and right. The issue of our existance may or may not be a part of the global climate trend. For our own friggin' good we better sort it out in an adult fashion. I ain't talkin' bout Nomads sorting it out here.:rolleyes:

But...
Why does this topic have to be so partisan? Because of Gore? Hell I haven't even seen the flick but I have personal concerns. Especially for those who live in big cities. If Gores' mission is to help slow the amount of pollution not just C02 that enters our atmosphere then I'm for it. To say it's ok to burn petrocarbons till their exhausted is dangerous and narrow-minded.

[Edited on 4-12-2007 by Sharksbaja]


I suggest we take actions away from sending more CO2 into the air IF they are relatively economical--as I see it, the sooner we are out of the oil fields and all the political morass and pollution that it entails the better. If there isn't global warming then so what...we've not lost anything and are much more energy independent.

David K - 4-12-2007 at 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadogs
Respectfully DavidK, Taco,
"Lies that Algore tells!" -DK quote
Please disprove Al Gore. I have not seen where he has lied. I think you are just repeating "hate radio jargon"
Taco,
The link works for me. While it's old school and a bit boring it is clear that the original film was hell-bent on misrepresenting the facts.
Viva logic, truth and ...Dog Dam I hate being lied to!!!! The video which spawned this thread is embarrassing propaganda. Lots of people fell for it.

Nobody else see's that?
hello?

Taco, I'm truly trying to be civil here. I hope you can catch the video. BTW, he is not my prof. I finished college a long time ago.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573...


To me, it is common sense that Algore needs the idea that man is causing global warming for him to stay in the public's eye. It was really embarassing the way he handled losing in 2000... no it was pathetic... hanging chads and all...

Why do you believe what any politician tells you about climate change, anyway? Besides his 'inventing the Internet', did Algore also become the world's smartest man? He sure has a big group of Chicken Littles following him!

If Algore believed that living the way we do in America is so bad, then let him give up his mansions (with enormous heating and cooling bills), flying around in private jets when a commercial airliner goes to the same place, and owning the very company that he wants people to send money to, to buy 'carbon offsets'. What a joke!

Real science uses all the facts to support any theory or come to a conclusion.

As far as being lied to, the glacier in South America was just one example I mentioned in a previous reply in this thread. Algore and most other politicians are lying to you. True scientists who have honor would not have any reason to and they just report findings.

I would believe a 'weatherman' over Algore, anyday. Weathermen (meteorologists) are specialists in climate. Losing presidential candidates seeking attention are specialists in 'bull...'

This thread asked if Global Warming affects Baja...

If there even is global warming, then no... not yet. If there is global warming, it would take a few more generations to notice. The world could be cooling as predicted 30 years ago... Great planet-wide changes do not happen in your short adult lifetime!

Do what you wish as far as exhaust gasses or eating meat goes, but please don't dictate to other good people how to live or that America is bad for not doing more.

PEACE!

Taco de Baja - 4-12-2007 at 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadogs
Respectfully DavidK, Taco,
"Lies that Algore tells!" -DK quote

Please disprove Al Gore. I have not seen where he has lied. I think you are just repeating "hate radio jargon"


Taco, I'm truly trying to be civil here. I hope you can catch the video. BTW, he is not my prof. I finished college a long time ago.


Bajadogs, I appreciate you civility, and the civility of most who have posted on this subject. I hope I have been civil too, as I tried to simply post "facts" as I see them ;D. And, I knew he was not your school prof…I simply meant “your guy”

I have tried to keep politics out of this discussion, or at least be fair in my bashing (I dislike both gore and bush, for different reasons, but that is really for the Off-topic Forum). But I feel I must invoke some politics in this post. (sorry)

Both gore and bush are politicians, not scientists, and politicians seem to think science can be voted on and if a majority of scientists say something happens because "X" then that's how it is. As I stated before, that's not science.

Baja dogs, in an earlier post you mentioned that you wanted to “follow the money” on some of the scientists and the reports they had prepared on the conclusion that man has not caused global warming. Do you think this should be applied to gore and the $100,000+ he gets every time he lectures on global warming??? That’s a big incentive to push for man-caused global warming, don’t you think? What else could he talk about and get money for it? "My life with the Clintons" ? "Why I hate Florida" ? I don't think so.

As for you request to see where gore lied, please check out A skeptic’s guide to an inconvenient truth . It details slide by slide, statement by statement where gore presents one-sided arguments, fudges facts or out right lies. It provides back up to support these claims.

Here is the summary of misstatements from the movie, if you just want a list.

Yes, these “facts” may be one-sided too, but they provide some much needed balance to the statements presented in gore’s movie.

Peace

danaeb - 4-12-2007 at 10:55 AM

Follow the money indeed:

"Conoco changes its color"

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2007/04/12/conoco-chan...

bajadogs - 4-12-2007 at 01:45 PM

David,

Quote:
To me, it is common sense that Algore needs the idea that man is causing global warming for him to stay in the public’s eye. It was really embarassing the way he handled losing in 2000... no it was pathetic... hanging chads and all...


I think it was pathetic and embarrassing how Bush handled “winning” the presidential election in 2000. 5 of the 9 supreme court justices should have been impeached for what they did.

Quote:
Besides his ‘inventing the Internet’, did Algore also become the world’s smartest man? He sure has a big group of Chicken Littles following him!


The “inventing the internet” misquote is a media lie, repeated so often that lots of people believe it.

Back to the topic -

Quote:
Real science uses all the facts to support any theory or come to a conclusion.


Can’t argue with that. “all the facts” - That’s important.

Quote:
As far as being lied to, the glacier in South America was just one example I mentioned in a previous reply in this thread.


There is a reason why you sight just one example - The glacier in Patagonia is one of the less than 1 percent of glaciers worldwide that is not shrinking at an accelerated rate. This selective type of presenting the facts is intentionally misleading. Remember the importance of “all the facts”? Of six glaciers in the Venezuelan Andes in 1972, only 2 remain, and scientists predict that these will be gone within the next 10 years. There are many other facts about shrinking glaciers and ice sheets that should be included into a scientific argument. Sighting one expanding glacier does not debunk Al Gore. If Gore used video footage of that specific glacier it’s technically incorrect but not intentionally misleading. If he cut that footage from the film and replaced it with footage from one of the glaciers in Venezuela would that give the film more merit?

Quote:
This thread asked if Global Warming affects Baja...

If there even is global warming, then no... not yet. If there is global warming, it would take a few more generations to notice. The world could be cooling as predicted 30 years ago... Great planet-wide changes do not happen in your short adult lifetime!


In my 40 years I’m pretty sure there have been great planetary changes. Maybe you wouldn’t notice any change if you are camping in a remote area on the Sea of Cortez, but we all know the Cortez isn’t what is was a couple of generations ago and you would be an idiot if you thought these changes were natural. I’m not blaming this on global warming, just illustrating how in our short lifetimes it becomes easy to lose track of the impact we have on our environment.

Quote:
Do what you wish as far as exhaust gasses or eating meat goes, but please don’t dictate to other good people how to live or that America is bad for not doing more.

PEACE!


Peace to you too David,
I haven’t dictated to anyone and never try to convince people that America is bad. I know we could be better though and am convinced that the sooner we kill our thirst for fossil fuels the better off we’ll be. My commute uses about 6 ounces of fuel. I eat meat, not too often.

Taco,
Thanks. This is my last post on this topic. It’s making me feel ill and I need to get some work done. I promise to take a look at your links.
Have a good weekend.
Mark

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