BajaNomad - Puerto Los Cabos

Puerto Los Cabos

bajajudy - 5-7-2007 at 08:57 AM

When we went to the beach this morning, Greenpeace had set up a roadblock and was not letting the trucks pass. They passed us through when we told them that we were going to the beach for a walk and a swim. They are encamped right where the mouth of the marina will be, probably tryng to keep them from blasting through to the sea which we have heard was supposed to be this week.

Just an update for anyone interested.

[Edited on 5-9-2007 by bajajudy]

David K - 5-7-2007 at 09:23 AM

How will preventing a marina from being completed save the whales? Why did they wait until the very end? Preventing a project from getting started (like the San Ignacio salt mine) seems to make more sense. :lol:

bajajudy - 5-7-2007 at 09:44 AM

The concern here is actually the sea turtles, in particular the laud or leatherback which nest here and only a few other places in the world.
I dont know the anwers to your other questions.

wilderone - 5-7-2007 at 09:52 AM

David, you know as much about Greenpeace as you do about the Sierra Club.
Why are you criticizing? And it's more than sea turtles. You favor this?:
"El Estero San José (The San José Estuary), the most important northwestern oasis in Mexico, which was also declared as an ecological reserve, is at huge risk. A marina, part of the Puerto de Los Cabos Resort development project, is due to be opened to sea, which will contaminate the freshwater supply to the majority of the Los Cabos region.
Recent findings by hydrologist, Emigdio Flores, from La Paz University confirms that once the marina is opened the freshwater aquifer will be contaminated by salt water intrusion. This will happen as the Puerto de los Cabos development crew hit groundwater when digging out the marina. This groundwater is part of the aquifer shared by the estuary.
The estuary and aquifer is the main freshwater supply for the whole Los Cabos region, which includes the areas between The Sierra de la Laguna Mountains to the Coast .
El Estero San José (The San José Estuary), the most important northwestern oasis in Mexico, which was also declared as an ecological reserve, is at huge risk. A marina, part of the Puerto de Los Cabos Resort development project, is due to be opened to sea, which will contaminate the freshwater supply to the majority of the Los Cabos region.
Recent findings by hydrologist, Emigdio Flores, from La Paz University confirms that once the marina is opened the freshwater aquifer will be contaminated by salt water intrusion. This will happen as the Puerto de los Cabos development crew hit groundwater when digging out the marina. This groundwater is part of the aquifer shared by the estuary.
The estuary and aquifer is the main freshwater supply for the whole Los Cabos region, which includes the areas between The Sierra de la Laguna Mountains to the Coast "Experts say that once the marina is opened the saltwater will mix with the freshwater and this salty water solution will move throughout the aquifer -- contaminating all the freshwater for this area, killing agricultural lands, the plants and animals in the estuary, and potentially local residents as the Los Cabos region only has one desalinazation plant -- which does not have the capacity to supply freshwater to all the hotels, tourists, and local residents of over 200,000 people -- far from."

Wilderone-----

Barry A. - 5-7-2007 at 10:18 AM

What you say here only re-emphathises what David is saying-------why did they wait until the last min. to protest this way? Why is this information only being posted NOW? It should have been posted over and over again (if true) and brought to the responsible authorities attention so that the project could have been stopped long ago. This eco-terrorism is insane.

As a member of the Sierra Club for years and years, I finally quit for reasons just like David points out--------they do not follow proper procedure, and disrupt enterprise at the last min. to the enormous expense of others trying to accomplish things.

There points are sometime valid, but their way of doing things stinks, IMHO. And often, they are simply wrong, though well-meaning (and sometimes I question even this)

I am still waiting for someone to answer David's questions.

wilderone - 5-7-2007 at 12:04 PM

You mean: "How will preventing a marina from being completed save the whales?" Who said it had anything to do with whales? The question is nonsensical - may be the reason no answers. I would assume they're blocking the trucks NOW because the trucks are heading there NOW. We don't know at this point what Greenpeace has done prior to this activity at the "very end" - but one could hardly assume that they did nothing.
I remember that Mexicans living at the San Jose Estuary, at least 3 years ago, pleaded on the Baja.com message board for help to stop the destruction of the estuary. There must have been plenty of hue and cry for years regarding this project, but nevertheless, has proceeded in the same way as all the other senseless developments -- and resultant degradation and destruction of Baja CA. I'm quite sure it was "brought to the responsible authorities attention" - however, in Baja CA, "responsibe authorities" is an oxymarooon, with results to prove it. You can't be serious. I don't believe taking action for what you believe in is wrong. It's far, far worse to do nothing at all. And IMHO, the "enormous expense of others trying to accomplish things" includes the counterpose of those same people destroying far greater treasures than what they think they're creating. "eco-terrorism is insane" - and knowingly contaminating a precious water supply isn't? Read this again and tell me THIS isn't eco-terrorism:

"Experts say that once the marina is opened the saltwater will mix with the freshwater and this salty water solution will move throughout the aquifer -- contaminating all the freshwater for this area, killing agricultural lands, the plants and animals in the estuary, and potentially local residents as the Los Cabos region"

They really need a shopping center and a place to park yachts that bad?

rts551 - 5-7-2007 at 12:16 PM

Title of the post is "back at Puerto Los Cabos" so I assume this is not their first visit.

wilderone - 5-7-2007 at 12:37 PM

Greenpeace had chained themselves to machinery in December 2006.

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/oceandefenders/archive/2006/12/...

Barry A. - 5-7-2007 at 12:45 PM

Whales, Turtles???? what's the diff----they are both endangered and we KNOW what David meant!! You are nit-picking on THAT particular issue, I am thinking, which detracts from the "real" issue (as usual).

And I am an avid Whale and Turtle protectionist.

My point is that IF this project is SO destructive as Green Peace, et al, says it is, it makes no sense that it would be allowed to proceed. There MUST be mitigating issues, and questionable "science" here. In my experience there is almost ALWAYS questionable science being used to clobber projects------------"man deffinitely causing Global Warming" comes to mind. (90% of Climatologists/Weathermen say no way man is even influencing "Global Warming")(nobody knows for sure, either way) And even if "we" are, it amounts to about 1 or 2 % of the problem of Global Warming-------we should damage the world economy on such evidence???? easy for you to say, I guess, but not me.

On the other hand, projects like the string of Marinas along both Baja coasts (Escalera Nautica?) is pretty crazy, and it seems to be progressing anyway, (tho very slowly), so maybe you have a point.

Outfits like Green Peace just give me the jitters, that's all-----they often go off so half-c-cked, and use such inflamatory language, half truths, and bad tactics that I can't trust them at all, and don't.

And besides, what I think does not make a tinkers damn in this instance, so we will see what happens.

Viva Baja!!!

wilderone - 5-7-2007 at 12:54 PM

And check this out:
http://www.wildcoast.net/site/index.php?option=com_content&a...

Yeah, just sit back and do nothing and see what happens. It'll be too late.

wilderone - 5-7-2007 at 01:06 PM

So I guess you trust the developers and the federal government.
"My point is that IF this project is SO destructive as Green Peace, et al, says it is, it makes no sense that it would be allowed to proceed."
This just defies common sense. Clear cutting is allowed to proceed. Mining and its resultant poisonous ponds and rivers are allowed to proceed. Fishing a species to extinction is allowed to proceed. Bottom trawling is allowed to proceed. Blasting and thumping to seek for oil is allowed to proceed. Poisoning our air with pollutants is allowed to proceed. Cancun and Cabo were allowed to proceed.

Barry A. - 5-7-2007 at 01:06 PM

First off, that article is from the NEW YORK TIMES so it starts off life being suspect.

In principal, I don't like the estuary being messed with either, but I am not in the decision process as far as I know, and I certainly am not "in the know" as to what is "right" in this case------are you???

I personally think the estuary long term is probably worth more in it's natural state than as a marina, but again I am NOT in the know and have not been consulted.

But I do know that Green Peace will probably do more damage to the situation, than good. (chaining themselves to bull dozers---------jeeeeeeze---------well, it will get attention, I suppose) If the local Mexicanos don't like the project THEY should be the ones down there protesting, en masse!!!!

Timbercrete - 5-7-2007 at 01:09 PM

Wilderone,

All I hear is Bla, Bla, Bla,.....bla, bla, bla :moon:

Again, Environmental Terrorists doing more harm than good!

Barry A. - 5-7-2007 at 01:10 PM

Wilderone------our interpretation of "common sense" is different.

Lets just leave it at that.

AmoPescar - 5-7-2007 at 01:41 PM

MY QUESTION IS THIS....

What...or who...allowed or gave Greenpeace the authority to set up a roadblock???

Was the roadblock on land they own??

Miguelamo :?:

Slowmad - 5-7-2007 at 02:56 PM

Future generations might thank us more for leaving some wilderness intact than they will for another plastic boat reservoir.
But the project will proceed, destroying the estuary and the very fabric of San Jose life.

The human race--a virus with shoes.

amir - 5-7-2007 at 04:00 PM

This marina is not just a "reservoir for plastic boats" or just for a "few richmen's yachts" - it will have 7 berths for cruiseships, that is, seven floating cities that bring 5 thousand people each at a time - that's an influx of 35,000 vacationers to consume what developers are salivating about.

The project goes on because of the bezillion$$ in bribes that must have greased the wheels of development. Two whole fishing villages have already been destroyed by excavators. That was just the beginning. Everybody knew the effects of such massive engineering in an ecologically fragile area, but how do you fight against FONATUR and corporate gringo investors?

At least somebody (Greenpeace) is bringing attention to the issue. May be too late or too little, but we're discussing it because of their actions.

"Build it and they will come!" Many people are making fortunes with this development. They don't give a flock about turles, or whales, or birds or any life on the estuary, or displaced locals... All these capitalists care about is the bottom line, and this is one heck of a profitable project. Land as far as the eye can see has been cleared for condos, time shares, malls and hotels. The whole area is pretty devastated. A roadblock by some activists will not stop the development, but it brings conscious attention and awareness to it. I'd like to think that if one voice is raised, that it will have an effect, albeit minimal...

--Amir.

Wilderone

Baja Bernie - 5-7-2007 at 04:56 PM

You had me leaning toward you even though I have little direct knowledge of the project...............BUT............then you blew it with this..........."The question is nonsensical - may be the reason no answers." No questions fall into this category and reverting to this type response is normally done when the person doing same is being 'nonsensical' in their attitude.

Sorry!

Crusoe - 5-7-2007 at 05:31 PM

Wilderone......You are spot on with your information and diologue. 8 years ago there was alot of resistance to this project. No one thought that Semarnap or the Mex. govt. agencies would ever permit this with all the scientific info. and hydrogeology reports etc., etc. that were written, and info. gathered.But they did it all under the table with going through the right channels and greasing the right Mexican Political hands with the right amounts of cash. Its the Mexican way. Greenpeace knows all this well and they are just trying to get more people involved and educated. Even if it is to late at least they are trying. 5 years ago I saw flyers in San Jose claiming how detremental this projrsct could be. No one will listen until its too late. Too bad. Nature will bat last. You just cant flood big main fresh water aquafirs with saltwater in the desert and get away with it. Time will tell quicker than we think!!! C

gringorio - 5-7-2007 at 06:47 PM

Why are you so anti-environment? :?:

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
How will preventing a marina from being completed save the whales? Why did they wait until the very end? Preventing a project from getting started (like the San Ignacio salt mine) seems to make more sense. :lol:

David K - 5-7-2007 at 06:48 PM

Wilderone, I never said a negative thing about Greenpiece... oh sorry, Greenpeace! :rolleyes:

Honestly, re-read my reply (to Judy) asking WHY WAIT until the END of the project, when stopping that marina from being STARTED would have been the intelligent thing to do (like San Ignacio Lagoon vs. Mitsubishi Salt).

I am all for saving turtles!!! I want their numbers to come back up so strong that we can legally and morally consume them once again! :bounce:

Personally, I would love Baja to look like 1965 all over again, as that was the year I first went there... Gonzaga Bay or 1966 to Cabo San Lucas!!!

Realistically, that is not going to happen! No matter how hard you try and stop the Mexican people from developing the peninsula so they can prosper from it, it is still THEIR peninsula.

So, ranting about a marina that is 90% completed or getting a bunch of has-been hippies to have a sit-in is NOT the answer!

Offering an ECO-TOURISM alternative that allows Mexicans to prosper, and tourists to enjoy Baja, with limits on develpoment of land or shoreline projects, IS THE ANSWER (I believe)!

Where was Greenpeace or whoever cared when this project was PROPOSED???

Wilderone, we are on the same page... just I have a different way of getting a positive result. San Ignacio Lagoon was a big victory for us consrvatives (or conservationists)... Learn from that example...

[Edited on 5-8-2007 by David K]

Frank - 5-7-2007 at 07:22 PM

So how much are they charging for slip fees? :lol:

Barry A. - 5-7-2007 at 07:44 PM

Think back to when Lake Powell was first proposed--------Edward Abbey and the Sierra Club, (etc.) quoted all kinds of "science" to prove what disasters would happen if Lake Powell was ever filled.

Well guess what, Lake Powell has been filled and drawn down many times and as far as I know NONE of the "disasters" predicted by "scientific" studies has happened.

But, the economy of the Navaho Nation, and nearby enterprises in Southern Utah and northern Arizona have benefitted greatly by Lake Powell and the related recreation.

Yes, we lost a beautiful canyon (Glenn Canyon)------everything is a tradeoff.

Ask most of the residents in the subject area what they think----------etc., etc.

David K - 5-7-2007 at 08:02 PM

I only wish all enviromentalists would place mankind in the loop of consideration... As it is, they seem to think that man is alien to this planet and only the good of the lower animals should be protected!

Well, man is a natural part of this planet, too!
We need water, recreation, income, food... Conservation means not to destroy or eliminate, but it doesn't mean to prohibit...

Don't overfish the same areas until they are void of sea life... practice conservation like they do in Asuncion, but don't prohibit what is natural for man to do... forever!

The harbor was built, so be it... Greenpeace wasn't paying attention when it should have... I don't think the clock can be turned back on this anymore than can Hwy. 1 be turned back into an unimproved dirt road south of El Rosario (as I would like)!

What do they say, 'put up or shut up'?

bajadogs - 5-7-2007 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

David K - Greenpeace wasn't paying attention when it should have

WE weren't paying attention when we should have. I think that's the intention of this last effort by Greenpeace - drawing attention to what is now the inevitable destruction of a fragile habitat, already under stress. How much development can the environment handle?
I don't think we should kick back and wait for environmental groups to save our sorry, selfish burros.
Geez, I hate butting heads with you DavidK... again.
Peace

David K - 5-7-2007 at 08:44 PM

Bajadogs, please understand (and I have said it above), I hate development too... BUT, it is going to happen... So, why not develop eco-friendly stuff rather than having a sit-in and wishing it never happened?

Staging a road block is just so childish and counterproductive to your cause.

If they didn't want it built then the time to act was THEN.

Acting now, is what I am having a hard time understanding... after the marina was already built!!

Peace to you friend!

amir - 5-7-2007 at 09:05 PM

Maybe they (Greenpeace) did it now for publicity, a self-promoting stunt: all those conservationists and guilt-ridden bystanders that did nothing all along now will reach deep into their pockets and support Greenpeace so they can stage another roadblock somewhere else another time...

bajadogs - 5-7-2007 at 10:17 PM

Quote:

So, why not develop eco-friendly stuff rather than having a sit-in and wishing it never happened?

I agree! We should all be more pro-active.

Iflyfish - 5-7-2007 at 10:56 PM

$=Influence + Power

In the USofA the Utility industry was able to obtain deregulation by following the very clear plan of buying local, state and federal legislators and regulators via campaign contributions. It was a very successful strategy that ended up in the dabacle of Enron. The Tea Pot Dome scandal, which finally led to anti trust laws, in those days the Corporations were called Trusts, was similar in that the business interests successfully went to bed with the politicos and that time they sold off the national oil reserve, named Tea Pot Dome. Two weeks ago in the LA paper we read of "surplus" buildings in the national forests for sale to private individuals. Amazing!!

It is small wonder that the latest Mexican election was won by a razor thin majority, those folks in the wings are becoming very hungry and very unhappy with the sort of status quo that allows this sort of project to be completed, given the studies sited here.

In the USofA 28 Republican Senators voted last week against allowing the government to negotiate prices with drug companies. The voted against free markets and therefore the people of the USofA pay the highest prices in the world for their medications. This is part of the reason for the medical tourism that we see in the Baja. At some point the excesses of people like this become apparent to enough people and change happens. Unfortunately it often takes a crisis of major proportion for epical change to occur.

Iflyfishwhennotcontemplatingongreed

Iflyfish

fishbuck - 5-7-2007 at 11:41 PM

"It ain't over till it's over"
It might be too late. But they haven't cut the channel yet have they.
I applaud the Greenpeace people for their actions. Maybe I'll drive down there and park my a$$ on the road too! Maybe that's the point.
Saving things like whales and turtles and vaquitas is an on going battle. Just cause we saved them yesterday and today doesn't mean they are saved for tomorrow.
And David K I hate to disagree with you but the way modern man lives is not natural. Think native americans who were stewards of the earth and lived in harmony. What's natural about a cruise ship full of greedy tourists?
The real problem is that for every 1 person who cares about that wetland there are 1000 who want a boat slip there and a condo. But that doesn't mean throw in the towel.
Fight for what you believe in.

[Edited on 5-8-2007 by fishbuck]

Skipjack Joe - 5-7-2007 at 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Well guess what, Lake Powell has been filled and drawn down many times and as far as I know NONE of the "disasters" predicted by "scientific" studies has happened.

Lake Powell IS the disaster.

Iflyfish - 5-7-2007 at 11:48 PM

fishbuck, I'll hold your coat.

salud!

Iflyfish

bajadogs - 5-8-2007 at 12:29 AM

Skipjack - I'll hold your hat.
Arizona residents and many others would claim Lake Powell a success. The upper gulf used to be one of the greatest bird sanctuaries in the world, but has been cut off dramatically from fresh water for human consumption. ¡Salud! y tu flyfish!
bd

David K - 5-8-2007 at 12:31 AM

Bummer that humans need to have water to live!

Of course some say this place is for the birds!!! :lol:

Iflyfish - 5-8-2007 at 12:46 AM

Clarification:

I misspoke on the latest tdrug bill balked at by 28 Repubican Senators. The bill they voted against would have allowed qualified foreign medications to be imported into the US, like the ones people purchase in Canada. Many of the drugs we use are manufactured offshore anyway in ostensibly US Corporations. I confused this vote with their earlier votes to disallow the US Government to negotiate lower drug prices by negotiating and purchasing in blocks. We all lost a lot on that one. Drug Corps won big time on both of these bills.

I was using this as an example of how the people lose out when government colludes with corporations and industries to promote the interests of these huge campaign contributors when the peoples interests are left wanting. I suspect that the Cabo Marina project is a similar collaborative effort.

Iflyfish

bajajudy - 5-8-2007 at 06:35 AM

I would like to correct one misconception. The developers are not gringos, they are Mexicans.

vandenberg - 5-8-2007 at 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
I would like to correct one misconception. The developers are not gringos, they are Mexicans.

Well, that put a whole new light on the subject. No greedy Kanucks or other Gringos

So guys, better start over :lol:

Slowmad - 5-8-2007 at 09:56 AM

Quote:

San Ignacio Lagoon was a big victory for us consrvatives (or conservationists)... Learn from that example...

[Edited on 5-8-2007 by David K]

Sure was.
Thanks for helping on that, David.

If we purport to care about Baja, it's time to step up and contribute.

In the time it takes to cast aspersions on conservation efforts—be they early, current, or late—we can at least spare a thought for where this is heading.

Perhaps a Baja preservation category in the forums would fill in some blanks, and attract some of the folks making positive moves on the peninsula.

It's in every thinking Baja aficionado's interest to educate themselves.
There are some staggeringly positive moves being made on the conservation easement front (Nature Conservancy, NRDC, Packard Foundation, WildCoast, Pronatura).
Should we criticize these groups for not starting earlier?

Be you knee-jerk lefty or single-celled Dittohead, Baja's worth protecting.

bajajudy - 5-8-2007 at 10:38 AM

Another misconception....the Greenpeace people here are young Mexicans not old hippies.

Iflyfish - 5-8-2007 at 10:41 AM

Well said Slowmad.

"Think native americans who were stewards of the earth and lived in harmony."

Like soulpatch I believe that there were amoung the Native peoples some who were very wise and far sighted. Chief Seattle, Red Jacket, Black Elk etc. I have read some of their writings and admire their prescience.

I however have also learned that many native people were brutish, ignorant and overused the resources that the land provided. The difference then was that there were lots of places to move when the local area was devistated.

Many do now know that the Haida slaved all the way from the Queen Charlottes to San Francisco Bay. People ran and hit in terror when they heard that the Haida were coming.

Many do not realize that there is evidence of canabolism in the ruins of the Anastasi. 40,000 people were sacrificed at the dedication of the temple of the sun in Tenochetlan, the temple and streets ran with blood. I doubt that there is really little difference between then and now.

Some amoung us seem to posess far sightedness and wisdom. Most ?????? I have lived in a nation that in my life time has supported two marches to folley that have accounted for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, not to mention the destruction of the enviorment that occurs as a consequence of war.

I think that human nature has changed little over the millenia. Humans appear to be genocidal and will rape and pillage till the last stone is turned. As Burke said, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil over good is that good men do nothing" I like that.

bajajudy
"I would like to correct one misconception. The developers are not gringos, they are Mexicans."

It would appear that race and national origin are no impediments to the sort of thinking that would destroy one of the last great estuaries of Baja. Look out Ensenada, they are after the Estero there too.

Iflyfishwhennottiltingatwindmills

cbuzzetti - 5-8-2007 at 10:49 AM

If they are going to develope the coast it is best if done where developement has already taken place.
The areas that are really worth protecting are the ones that are closest to their natural state.
I would much rather see a new marina at Cabo than at Mag Bay or Laguna la Bocana.
Progress is unstoppable so it may as well be clustered.
I do not want rampant developement in Baja but I know it is going to continue.
So lets save the areas that are really pristine. IMO

Great topic by the way.

Bruce R Leech - 5-8-2007 at 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
What you say here only re-emphathises what David is saying-------why did they wait until the last min. to protest this way? Why is this information only being posted NOW? It should have been posted over and over again (if true) and brought to the responsible authorities attention so that the project could have been stopped long ago. This eco-terrorism is insane.

As a member of the Sierra Club for years and years, I finally quit for reasons just like David points out--------they do not follow proper procedure, and disrupt enterprise at the last min. to the enormous expense of others trying to accomplish things.

There points are sometime valid, but their way of doing things stinks, IMHO. And often, they are simply wrong, though well-meaning (and sometimes I question even this)

I am still waiting for someone to answer David's questions.

Berry A you are right on with this post

Tribunal Article

bajajudy - 5-8-2007 at 02:28 PM

http://www.tribunadeloscabos.com.mx/newpage/index.cfm?op=por...

I am the first to admit that I dont understand all of this article and would appreciate one of you to help me but one thing that I did understand is that the local government has denied issuing any permits for the marina which they say all came from the federal government.

As for sacrificing one of the most important stopovers in the migration of hundreds of species of birds from north to south and back every year, I think that is a shame. Some of you dont realize that this is not part of the San Lucas sprawl. It was a pristine area with no tourists, only birds and other wildlife which, one day, everyone will realize is a pretty important part of the formula for survival.

PS: The only club I claim membership to is the human race so dont label me, please

[Edited on 5-8-2007 by bajajudy]

Marie-Rose - 5-8-2007 at 02:54 PM

As for sacrificing one of the most important stopovers in the migration of hundreds of species of birds from north to south and back every year, I think that is a shame. Some of you dont realize that this is not part of the San Lucas sprawl. It was a pristine area with no tourists, only birds and other wildlife which, one day, everyone will realize is a pretty important part of the formula for survival.

That really is the bottom line. Haven't been back in 3 yrs, when they started bulldozing everything. Broke our heart to see it happening. It is a huge loss for the area. :no:

bajajudy - 5-8-2007 at 03:16 PM

This was taken yesterday in the estero between El Presidente Hotel and the new marina.
Muy tranquilo

estero.jpg - 44kB

Iflyfish - 5-8-2007 at 03:30 PM

Great pic bajajudy, makes it real.

I am pleased to hear that Mexican Greenpeace members onboard for this.

Thanks,

Iflyfish

Crusoe - 5-8-2007 at 06:24 PM

Thank You Judy for the nice words and picture of the "Snowy Egret"?? We have camped in and explored that area two times in years past. The last time was 5 years ago and we had heard of the proposed development at that time. Its really ashame how fast places are bieng dispoiled for the sake of deveolpment.........This is a great thread and I think people that care about this subject, should all have the right to voice an opinion. We really form our opinions from our education and expieriences. What some people cant see is...... it is not a Mexico/USA environmental issue exclusively.The border line which was determined by some treaties and agreements 100 years ago, has nothing to do the the physical state of the geological land mass. The birds and the wildlife and the weather do not recognize this boundry. It is all part of the North American/Mexican SouthWest. This is the year of 2007 and we are an educated and advanced civilization living and traveling in this landscape. We have a moral obligation to respect it and protect it and each small plant and animal that also uses and lives in this landscape.We do not have the right to alter it and destroy it. We need to look back and see our past mistakes. And to you Barry....... Damming Glen Canyon and creating Lake Powel was a huge disaster. That was an evviromental trade to the Army Corp of Engineers and the Dept of Interior so 3 less dams would be built as part of the Tennisee Valley Authority Dams. I had floted Glen Canyon not long before it was dammed and it was a magnicent canyon,...... surpassing the Grand Canyon by far.The lake burried hundreds of important Annazazi Indian Ruins that dated back to 5000 years and more,and totaly destroyed a pristine area of thousands of square miles, oblitterating wildlife habitat. Last year we walked over 400 miles with a back pack, in 7 weeks in the Escalante area and if you want to have a close look at what Lake Powell is doing that is one place you could get a first hand look. It had been 20 years since last trip to that canyon. What a difference!!.....I believe the Mexican kids that are supporting GreenPeace want a better life for themselves and are tired of watching their parents sell out.Ask yourself?? Where do they have to go???

Pescador - 5-8-2007 at 08:15 PM

Why is it that whenever there is a discussion of Greenpeace or the Sierra club it always falls down to environmental issues. That is not the crux of the problem with these type of orginizations. The directors and founders may have some conservational bend but for the most part they are a business and run solely on the contributions of others. So they pick up an issue that has the most likelihood of bringing in new members and money. So the message they send out is join us or you are just one of those rotten developers. Well guess what, I am adamantly opposed to the development and I cringe when I read things like the estuary and the stupidity that is going on at Loreto Bay, but let us not confuse the issue with Greenpeace or any other feel good orginization that has as its primary purpose to recruit new money and members (which translates into more money). This is really no different than the advertising that is done for the casinos which promote if you want to be rich, come and gamble at our casions ( like that is really gonna happen) but we buy this line and come and spend our dollars so that some rare person wins a big jackpot and we go away wishing it would have been us. Greenpeace and the Sierra club, for the most part do exactly the same thing, you get to feel really good about yourself doing something to save the environment if you will just join with us with your person and your money.

Barry A. - 5-8-2007 at 09:18 PM

Crusoe said, "And to you Barry....... Damming Glen Canyon and creating Lake Powel was a huge disaster. That was an evviromental trade to the Army Corp of Engineers and the Dept of Interior so 3 less dams would be built as part of the Tennisee Valley Authority Dams. I had floted Glen Canyon not long before it was dammed and it was a magnicent canyon,...... surpassing the Grand Canyon by far.The lake burried hundreds of important Annazazi Indian Ruins that dated back to 5000 years and more,and totaly destroyed a pristine area of thousands of square miles, oblitterating wildlife habitat. Last year we walked over 400 miles with a back pack, in 7 weeks in the Escalante area and if you want to have a close look at what Lake Powell is doing that is one place you could get a first hand look. It had been 20 years since last trip to that canyon. What a difference!!.....

Crusoe-------

Could you expand on just "why" you think Glen Canyon is a "disaster"? Your Tennesee Valley Authority theme was certainly part of it, but there were many, many other issues that went into the decision to build the dam------perhaps you have read Marc Reisner's "Cadillac Desert" which details all this history. As I said, everything is a "trade-off", and on balance the Glen Canyon dam and Lake Powell is hugely valuable to the extreme southwest from a human perspective. I lived in Utah with the Nationa Park Service while all this was going on, and have tramped all over that area, including having my family running through Glen Canyon prior to the dam (I was an NPS River Ranger)-------tho fantastic, it in no way compares with the Grand Canyon. Your "conclusion" (and that IS what it is) that the lake has "totally destroyed" the surrounding area is silly and false, and I think you probably know that. I have recently spent time in the Escalante, too (tho not nearly as much as you) and I think that it is wonderful, and yes I have seen it prior to the filling of Lake Powell.

Everything is in the eye of the beholder, and each of us has their own "reality". We probably agree on most things of this nature, but overstating the consequences, and making concrete statements based on speculative and scanty "science" is what discredits the Environmental EXTREMISTS cases almost every time. That is a shame because much of what they say is valid, and yes we DO need to conserverve as much as is feasible without totally compromising the viability of the human endeavor. There must be balance. We need to have folks on both sides of these issues remain calm and honest if we are to make any progress, it seems to me. (and we DON'T need eco-terrorism, or any other kind of terrorism!!!!!)

Ed Abbey was one man, and a bit evil, in my opinion and certainly an "eco-terrorist" and outside the "rule of law", and consequently a rather uncivilized eco-freak. (but he did write well)

Barry

Wow------what happened to this post????

Barry A. - 5-8-2007 at 09:45 PM

-----it disappeared from human observation. Were my comments THAT bad????

Barry

Paula - 5-8-2007 at 10:04 PM

There is a great difference between terrorism and civil disobedience.

Perhaps by the logic of some here, Martin Luther King was a terrorist.

wilderone - 5-9-2007 at 09:04 AM

"That is not the crux of the problem with these type of orginizations. The directors and founders may have some conservational bend but for the most part they are a business and run solely on the contributions of others. So they pick up an issue that has the most likelihood of bringing in new members and money."
In truth and in FACT
Their members are actual human beings who actually go out and swing a hoe, a shovel, put on gloves and boots, and get the job done. I speak from personal experience. Yes, worldwide organizations, like any successful organization, needs money to pay the bills. Educate yourself and find out what their accomplishments are. They are real, and without those many, many organizations doing what they do, your world would be in sorrier shape than it already is. The local chapters of the Sierra Club work locally - city by city - getting the job done - saving canyons, keeping open space open, halting numerous violations of law, cleaning beaches, getting the word out on projects, etc. - all done by actual people - one by one - taking personal responsibility - standing up for what they believe in.

motoged - 5-9-2007 at 10:10 AM

Folks,
This thread is NOT about Greenpeace and the like....it is about destruction of an organism: the planet.

Heron

bajajudy - 5-9-2007 at 02:39 PM

Same day. same spot. I just realized I had captured this guy.

landing.jpg - 36kB

March Today

bajajudy - 5-10-2007 at 06:27 AM

Greenpeace es una organización ecologista internacional, económica y políticamente independiente, que utiliza la no violencia y la confrontación creativa para
denunciar los problemas ambientales globales y para proponer soluciones necesarias para un futuro verde y en paz.
Por medio de la presente, invitamos a su respetable
medio de comunicación a la marcha:

En la que participarán ciudadanos de San José del Cabo, con el fin de defender la
reserva ecológica de Baja California Sur, y de solicitarle a Luis Armando Díaz,
presidente municipal de Los Cabos, BCS., que trabaje en favor de la protección
del medio ambiente y de la comunidad.
Agradecemos la asistencia y la cobertura de su medio a esta actividad.
Favor de enviar fotógrafa(o) y camarógrafo, pues habrá imagen.

La cita es este JUEVES 10 DE MAYO A LAS 10:00 a.m.
en la planta de tratamiento de aguas residuales de Fonatur
(frente a la estación de bomberos), en el CENTRO de SAN JOSÉ
DE LOS CABOS, en Baja California Sur.

Para mayor información, comunicarse con Cecilia Navarro (en el DF) al 5530 2165 ext.
220 o al 04455 5172 9869 o con Raúl Estrada (en Los Cabos) al 045 55 2746 3236 o visitar
la página www.greenpeace.org.mx. Imágenes disponibles.

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by bajajudy]

oxxo - 5-11-2007 at 01:48 PM

Puerto Los Cabos marina and residential is being developed by the Sanchez/Navarro family, originally from Mexico City. They are also developing the El Campestre residential with Jack Nicklas golf course in San Jose. This family is the developer and owner of the Cabo Real mega sub-division on the San Lucas/San Jose corridor. They do not have a good reputation. I know 20 or 30 people that have had bad experiences with them. Historically they have not performed on the promises (or were they lies from the beginning?) when developing a property. They have a reputation of doing everything as cheaply as possible, putting several coats of paint over the deficiencies, selling the project, and moving on. I have looked at the marina and it is my opinion that it is poorly engineered and will not survive even a glancing blow from a hurricane. I will not keep my boat there, especially at the USD$30/foot/month they are going to charge. These are Newport Beach prices.

Once upon a time, I wrote Environmental Impact Reports. I think I was pretty objective because in just about every case both the environmentalists and the developer who was paying me were unhappy with my conclusions and recommendations about one point or another. Each wanted me to be in their "camp." You see, I think that responsible development and environmental protectionism compliment each other and go hand in hand and are good, one for the other. It is my opinion that the Puerto Los Cabos development is all ready causing some severe negative environmental impacts on the estuary that could or may be irreversible. But perhaps we don't need that old estuary anyway. It depends on your priorities. Had Sanchez/Navarro been smart, they would have brought Greenpeace in from the beginning and made them a partner in the decision making process with regards to environmental issues. I think this kind of mutual cooperation could have resulted in a magnificent project - profitable for the Sanchez/Navarro family while preserving and enhancing the estuary.

I hope that Greenpeace is successful in blocking at least part of this destructive project. Alas, I fear it is not to be. The Sanchez/Navarro family is very powerful with lots of money and they have friends in very high places.

[Edited on 5-11-2007 by oxxo]