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Illegal nets

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Osprey - 5-7-2007 at 01:57 PM

Innocence Abroad

It’s done. I went down to the beach, destroyed the nets, just drove on home, opened a beer and watched a basketball game on television. Maybe it hasn’t sunk in yet – just what I’ve done, why I did it, what might happen next. So far; no regrets.

I drove down just before nine in the morning; a slow, summer weekday – not many people. The shore fishermen leave before eight and all the fishing boats are long gone just after first light. Oscar had left his nets on the beach for two or three days, just piled up with a rusty anchor on top.

I parked my Trooper way back up on the hard-pack so there would be no tracks. I wore a bathing suit, wrapped the big bottle of acetone in a big beach towel, walked up the beach, then in the water back to the nets, emptied the corrosive stuff on both nets, left the bottle right on the pile. I retraced my steps back to the hard-pack, drove on home.

This all sounds kind of “spur of the moment” but I’ve been planning this for years. Oscar Ortiz has been using nets at or near our beach for as long as anyone can remember. It has always been a mystery to me why somebody didn’t, couldn’t stop him. He’s the only guy in East Cape who uses nets. He has an accomplice with Mexican fish and game, PESCA, in La Paz and although he’s been reported for illegally using nets by everybody and his brother (me included) scores of times, PESCA or SAGARPA show up, the next day he’s right back out there.

Lately it has been getting worse with him. One night he pulled in with five to ten green sea turtles, offloaded them to a waiting pickup that came down the beach without lights, crept out of there headed for the buyer in La Paz. A month ago, on one good night, he netted, killed and sold over a hundred baby hammerhead shark. Last week he came in with over 100 kilos of roosterfish (mostly babies). I saw him offload what surely had to be 40 kilos or more of a mixed bag made up mostly of chivato, Mexican goatfish and rayadillo, wavy-line grunt.

No other fishermen in this area use these purse nets. Even when they were legal (many moons ago) legal mesh was about four inches – Oscar’s mesh has always been 1.25 inches so he catches mostly juveniles of every stripe. Only Oscar profits – his illegal over-fishing hurts the fishing resorts, the charter boats, the bait vendors, shore fishermen, the fly-fishing tourists, the guy just trying to feed his family. When we see dead lobo, sea lions or porpoise rotting on the beach nobody thinks it’s the camarroneras, the shrimpers that scour the fruitful sandy bottoms.

He’ll surely be back out there. He’s not going to call the police; nobody’s going to report this to anybody. Oscar will just buy some new nets in La Paz and go right on as though nothing happened. Only now he knows he has to be looking over his shoulder. I hope somebody will see the mass of goo that used to be his nets, the empty bottle of acetone – it will only take one pair of eyes and it will be all over town. I will hope against hope that if and when he gets new nets, starts his old routine, somebody else will find a way to stop him. If I can’t make an end, perhaps I’ve made a beginning. I wonder if it will be worth it.

If the whole town is wrong about his lawbreaking, if he has powerful friends or money to pay them, he could report it, have me jailed or deported. Well, they’ve got to catch me first. I’m not usually the willful, reckless type – if they lock me up the whole town will turn out to tell them they’ve got the wrong man. “Jorge, he’s just an old fool. He doesn’t have it in him.”

I like to think I might have a broader world view. Perhaps they don’t appreciate the fact that one man, just one, can make a difference. Maybe they don’t see how much difference Oscar has made.

fishbuck - 5-7-2007 at 02:04 PM

Osprey, your my hero! Especially after the baby roosterfish part.

TWO EARS AND THE TAIL MY FRIEND

vgabndo - 5-7-2007 at 02:13 PM

While I fully support your "monkeywrenching" the mother, I worry about you. You didn't have to tell us, or you could have done it anonimously. The anti-environmentalist folks on this board are likely to give you crap, but I'd give you a medal.

Barry A. - 5-7-2007 at 02:17 PM

Being a "rule of law" guy, why didn't the rest of the folks along the beach howl so much that "Oscar" was arrested by the folks payed to do just that???

I will never understand this----------all the folks that did nothing are part of the problem, it seems to me. No wonder you did what you did---------you "knew" that you were right, and you were obviously frustrated.

You won't find me complaining about what you did-----in this case anyway. Each circumstance is different.

Barry

cbuzzetti - 5-7-2007 at 02:19 PM

Let me know if you need more Acetone.
Not sure how to even get it there.
Don't buy it locally.

Cypress - 5-7-2007 at 02:23 PM

Jeez Osprey! You're one brave son of a gun.

Oscar can kiss my butt and pack as much of that illegal net up his bootie as possible. You've got lots of support from north and south of the border. :bounce:

Bajagypsy - 5-7-2007 at 02:38 PM

Way to go Osprey, If I was there I would have helped you. The thought of all that netting makes my blood boil. :mad:

To bad not more people have the guts to do what you did. I say job well done.

Don Alley - 5-7-2007 at 02:41 PM

Is this a fictional story, or a true report? Or does it matter?

I do envy the East Cape and the success it's had, even if limited, against gill nets.

Things are different in the Loreto Marine Park. The regulations governing nets are somewhat cryptic, depending on the "zone" one is in. For example, around Isla del Carmen gill netting is not allowed over rocky bottoms, and is not allowed during the months of April through August. So when a gill net is reported over a rocky reef along Carmen's shoreline in April, Park officials explain that the Management Plan allows those nets, and the netters have a permit, but that Americans are selling their yellowtail in the US. So the only response is a surge in patrols targeting gringos.

FlyfishingPam has reported on this site that the new port authorities in Puerto Escondido kicked the gillnetters out, and fishing improved dramatically. But Jose Torres told me that the netter complained to a "higher authority:" the Marine Park. The park intervened, the netting is allowed in the Management Plan, and the gill nets went back in.

So you might get a different reaction from the law if you tried destroying their nets in Loreto.

Friends sent me this pick a week ago, a gillnet off the Loreto Malecon:

gillnet.jpg - 40kB

Capt. George - 5-7-2007 at 03:01 PM

so it's Mexico...how about Abreojos is part of a world wide agreed upon biosphere and they still gill net the estero, a virtual nursery.

fuggedaboudit!

they just don't seem to realize they're stealing their children's and grandchildren's home....pennies a pound for netted fish opposed to a decent income from chartering...

At one time (when the estero had fish) it had a great number of fly in fishermen...they could get that back in spades if they just protected the estero alone...

fugedaboudit!

amir - 5-7-2007 at 03:06 PM

Well done! It is good someone had the courage to give a message. To observe a wrong and not react is to approve. To take action, any action, takes courage and fortitude. If Oscar gets enough messages perhaps, we hope, it will begin to influence his thinking; if the messages cut into his profits, it might make him think harder. Prayers also work - I will start visualizing Oscar finding other, non-destructive ways to make a living...

--Amir.

Stellar story Osprey

Sharksbaja - 5-7-2007 at 03:11 PM

You once again challenged my cortex. Kudos! My feelings exactly.

George is a purveyor of ~~wine~~ fine literature but he's certainly no idiot. Would you put your head in a guillotine? Neither would he. :bounce:

Message received and understood. Thank you Jorge!

[Edited on 5-7-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Natalie Ann - 5-7-2007 at 03:15 PM

Jorge.... well done.

Nena

Marie-Rose - 5-7-2007 at 03:38 PM

:yes:

DENNIS - 5-7-2007 at 04:01 PM

I commend you for your actions. They are brave and noble. How many times do you think you can repeat the act before Oscar puts a low paid guard on the nets?

mtgoat666 - 5-7-2007 at 04:09 PM

What little I know about nets leads me to think acetone would not damage them, and acetone would evaporate fast in east cape heat.
Did acetone work on them???

DENNIS - 5-7-2007 at 04:21 PM

That is good advice. This is really a small world when you don't want it to be.

Bedman - 5-7-2007 at 04:35 PM

My fellow Nomads, Please know that Osprey is a stellar author. His writings have tickled my funny bones, peeed me off, Turned my mind to mush and Pierced my heart for years.

Sharks.... in the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Bedman

DENNIS - 5-7-2007 at 04:38 PM

You've got to be kidding? This was a writing excercise?

fishbuck - 5-7-2007 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
You've got to be kidding? This was a writing excercise?

Hows this for an idea?
I have a story about a superhero named Marlinman. He's half man/half marlin. He defends the Cortez from villianous poachers and polluters (and developers).
I'm not sure yet how I... um I mean he becomes half marlin but it's some kind of awful accident caused by... yep you guessed it... a gillnet.
He's assisted by his trusty side kick... okay I need some help with the side kick. Dolpinboy? Turtleteen? Octokid? Squidsquirt?

DENNIS - 5-7-2007 at 05:27 PM

No No No, fishbuck. You have to stick with fiction. Your story is all too believeable.

coconaco - 5-7-2007 at 06:30 PM

would marlinman wear a thong?

I don't like seeing nets used closed to shore or to cut off a bay or a mangrove channel. I hear in Mag bay that they use the four inch nets when the inspector is in town, and down to three inches the rest of the month.

BUT
Those manta ray nets off shore have been very good to me for big bull dorados - a nice oval troll -

gringorio - 5-7-2007 at 06:45 PM

good going! it was the right move - you are now a member of Abbey's wooden shoe gang! :bounce:

woody with a view - 5-7-2007 at 06:45 PM

Quote:

Lately it has been getting worse with him. One night he pulled in with five to ten green sea turtles, offloaded them to a waiting pickup that came down the beach without lights, crept out of there headed for the buyer in La Paz. A month ago, on one good night, he netted, killed and sold over a hundred baby hammerhead shark. Last week he came in with over 100 kilos of roosterfish (mostly babies). I saw him offload what surely had to be 40 kilos or more of a mixed bag made up mostly of chivato, Mexican goatfish and rayadillo, wavy-line grunt.

100 sharks? <100 kilos of roosterfish? in a panga? ........ i sure hope (Jorge?) Osprey is spinning tales! :lol:

if not, i've gotta Glock w/ no numbers.....maybe stick it up Oscars culo after removing his thong and see how he reacts?

Santiago - 5-7-2007 at 06:46 PM

I read and enjoy everything Osprey writes. I think Coco has a thong on his ceiling that would actually fit marlinman..................

Don Alley - 5-7-2007 at 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck

Hows this for an idea?
I have a story about a superhero named Marlinman. ...He's assisted by his trusty side kick... okay I need some help with the side kick. Dolpinboy? Turtleteen? Octokid? Squidsquirt?

Remora.

Iflyfish - 5-7-2007 at 11:45 PM

Great story Osprey. Like the one about how Brad Pitt saved the Baja with Flyfishing! You write so well. I can imagine someone actually doing something like this. Your imagination is really great, or else you used a real happening to base this story on. Good one.

I know an Oregon Flyfisherman who ran into a Yakima Indian net strung from bank to bank on a local river allowing no escapement. The net was cut into small pieces at dusk and placed in a neat pile on the shore. Must have been very satisfying :spingrin:

for the person who did this.

Thanks for the ongoing fiction, keep them coming! Hope no one really thinks you did this, wouldn't want some copy cat to actually do something like this after reading your work of fiction. Or if you based the story on an actual event, I hope all goes well for the guy who so creatively did this.

Iflyfish :spingrin:

Osprey - 5-8-2007 at 07:43 AM

The story is fact except for two things:
1. That’s not the guy’s name.
2. I didn’t touch his nets.

In the story I told you all I know about the situation, all I’ve learned in the last 12 years in this little village – it’s not nearly enough. I’m torn in half by the thing. Day after day I ply the nooks and crannies of the extensive shoreline in my small boat using all the right lures at various speeds for different presentations hoping for a chance to get back to the house with a couple of nice sierra (the limit is 5) while on the same morning the guy has been seen with a tonelada, 2200 lbs of sierra in his boat.

I wouldn’t put my family at risk, in harms way, to sabotage a man’s fishing equipment. Certainly not as a visitor in a country whose laws are a complete mystery to me. Vigilantism is the kind of lawlessness that turns victims into villains. When I can’t stand it any longer I guess I’ll round up some of my Mexican fishing pals, try to convince them to help me research the alleged permits, institute a proper petition of legal estoppels, bring the whole matter out in the light, let the world see the injustice, put a proper end to the netting.

I wasn’t trying to trick anyone. I’m a teller of tales, a fiction writer and a compulsive liar. Thanks to all of you for your kind words, your encouragement – I knew (for lots of you out there) the story might evoke the honest passion and frustration made clear in your posts. You honor me with your validation and humble me with your praise.

P.S. Fishbuck

Maybe we can collaborate on the Marlin man theme:

Evil divers armed with airharpoons are protecting the contractors working under water on a new kind of fish-killing stun station.

Squidsquirt: “Holy regeneration Marlinman those divers look like trouble to me.”
Marlinman: “Just some new kids havin’ fun with their little guns – no preoccupada joven.”
Squidsquirt: “Just to be on the safe side I’ll put their lights out, you give em the bill.”

DianaT - 5-8-2007 at 07:56 AM

Always love reading your stories. I would wish it was true, expect I would not want to see you in danger.

Keep on writing and sharing.
Diane

Osprey - 5-8-2007 at 10:10 AM

Bounce for Fishbuck (and others I owe)

Iflyfish - 5-8-2007 at 10:48 AM

I took literary license too in regard to the Oregon Flyfisherman and the net he cut into small, very satisfying pieces. I too would never publically advocate for such random acts of retribution.

I am please to hear your clarification. I recall a nation stunned into terror when War of the Worlds was broadcast. Words are powerful indeed!

Keep em coming.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 5-8-2007 at 01:11 PM

Osprey ---

I was impressed with your story, so much that I commented on it here. I didn't react to your writing style. I reacted to the hot-topic content of it. Dead turtles, gill nets, baby roosterfish and others. It is a display of concept sensitive fiction and the shame of it is, for you, that it isn't a display of concept sensitive fact. [ who above mentioned the Monkey-wrench Gang ]
As I said, I appreciate your writing abilities. I only think your method of "setting the hook" was out of place, being here. What I would liken it to is, going on a site for cancer sufferers and professing to have found a cure, returning later to say it was a writing drill.
This is not poetic license. It is having fun with a sad fact.

Again, I like your writing style, in spite of it's misdirection.

Are you published? Is there more? I would like to read more.

Sharksbaja - 5-8-2007 at 01:23 PM

ah, another hooked Nomad..... :yes:

Very stirring yet frightening in more real terms.

fishbuck - 5-8-2007 at 01:39 PM

Vigilantes and ficticious superheros aside. Is there any legitimate oganzation of concerned anglers for the protection and concervation of the Baja fisheries?
I remember reading a while back about the effort to prevent commercial long line ships from fishing in the Cortez. What ever happened with that?

DENNIS - 5-8-2007 at 01:43 PM

Are they still there?

DENNIS - 5-8-2007 at 01:51 PM

I remember years ago when there were two kelp cutters working the waters around Ensenada. They were cutting too deeply and, in spite of complaints, continued.
One beautiful night, a ball of fire sat offshore, taking the egregious mower to the waterline.
It was beautiful.

Osprey - 5-8-2007 at 01:53 PM

Dennis, Fishbuck

Dennis, I've written about 200 short stories and essays some of which have been published; two books (one about the future of the Sea of Cortez, the other about the famous cave paintings of Baja) which will probably never be published -- I'm just not set up for self publication or agent chasing. You can all have em free if you'll trust me with your E addresses. They download quick. A few Nomads have read them and they're still talking to me.
Fishbuck, there are many conservation groups who have been working a long time to stop the raping of this little sea and all the others. It's an up-hill battle in Mexico because all the things in the sea are for-sale resources which Mexico often treats like mangos, chilis or cotton.

DENNIS - 5-8-2007 at 01:59 PM

Osprey ----

I trust you with my life. Thanks.

I have to take off but, I'll send a PM when I get back in a while.

wilderone - 5-8-2007 at 02:52 PM

These people have what it takes - not just words:
And, ya know what? You could get involved too.

Sea Shepherd Flagship R/V Farley Mowat Longline Confiscations
• In March 2002, Sea Shepherd crew confiscated an illegally set Costa Rican 30 km (18.6 mile) line in the Pacific territorial waters of Guatemala with the permission of the Guatemalan government.
• In April of 2002, Sea Shepherd crew confiscated numerous lines from the Marine Sanctuary of Cocos Island in cooperation with Costa Rican Park rangers.
• In August 2002, Sea Shepherd crew confiscated 12 km (7.5 mile) of longline set in the waters of the Marine Sanctuary of the Galapagos National Park and turned it over to the Galapagos Park Rangers.
• In September 2002, Sea Shepherd crew confiscated a 60 km (37.3 mile) line of unknown origin set in the pelagic waters between Tahiti and New Zealand.
• During 2002, Sea Shepherd confiscated and destroyed over 100 kilometers (over 60 miles) of illegally set longline.
• In the process, four sea turtles, sixty-seven sharks, and over a hundred large fish were found alive and released back to the sea.
• Dead fish, birds, and turtles are put back into the sea. The fish is not utilized as food on the Farley Mowat because the Sea Shepherd ship has a policy of not serving fish as food onboard the vessel.
• In March 2003, the Farley Mowat confiscated longlines near the Cook Islands and south of Hawaii.
• During the months of May through August 2004, the crew of the Farley Mowat intervened and confiscated lines near the Galapagos, around Colombia ’s Malpelo Island and in the Galapagos Corridor between the Galapagos and Panama.
• In April of 2005, the Farley Mowat deployed 16 net ripper devices on the Tail of the Grand Banks of Newfoundland to discourage illegal bottom dragging.
• January 2006 - The Farley Mowat confiscated a Uraguayan tootfish longline inside the Australian Antarctic Terriotorial waters. A total of some four kilometers of line was confiscated.

Iflyfish - 5-8-2007 at 03:44 PM

Wilderone,

Thank you.

Iflyfish

DanO - 5-8-2007 at 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley

Quote:

Remora.

The Urchin.

DENNIS - 5-8-2007 at 04:03 PM

Wilderone ----

You are a freakin saint in my book. Im old enough to be ruled by cynicism but, your efforts ring true and unselfish. You care. You care about life that can't defend itself. Life that needs our help. Life that doesn't need to be killed for fun.

Getting involved is what? Going to the Wildcoast site?

Hang in there, buddy.... this is a diverse site. Some will agree and some won't.

I agree with you, wholehartedly.

Bruce R Leech - 5-8-2007 at 04:20 PM

Osprey, your my hero. keep writing the good stuff. I think your words are more powerful and do more good than Green pieces radical actions. some how I see an increase in acetone sales coming. :light:

DENNIS - 5-8-2007 at 04:29 PM

Oh yeah..... The sales of acetone are always increasing here in Mexico. It's one of the necessities for the production of methamphetamin, speed.
And, we are living in the country which is number one in that catagory.

Hey Bruce-----Where have you been?

Oso - 5-8-2007 at 06:02 PM

Amazing how many bite Osprey's hook. I always know from his excellent style where he is going with it. In this case, I don't think I'd really mind if life imitated art.

Von - 5-8-2007 at 08:24 PM

Im so happy to here that some one has the balls

to do that,my friend

Thanks for saving some of my friends in the ocean! that could have been me next time in the sea!

Keep on kickn some A..!

[Edited on 5-9-2007 by Von]

BajaWarrior - 5-8-2007 at 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I remember years ago when there were two kelp cutters working the waters around Ensenada. They were cutting too deeply and, in spite of complaints, continued.
One beautiful night, a ball of fire sat offshore, taking the egregious mower to the waterline.
It was beautiful.

Yep, when I had my home at La Bocan de Santo Tomas, the kelp cutter came in so close on more than one occasion I thought it would hit the rocks in front of my house. I have to say, it was pretty awesome watching it work, but sad at the same time. I must say though, it's not like they were taking even close to half of it. But it would cause quite an impact after many collections.

Wilderone and George, Pam, Judy and others

Sharksbaja - 5-8-2007 at 11:17 PM

This is the type stuff that makes me really enjoy hanging out here. Your personal attachment and love for Baja exemplifies the people who should be in Baja.

It DOES help to inform or otherwise draw attention to an important plight. How effective Greenpeace and/or others will beis yet to be seen. But when I see how effective George was here I take pause.
Aside from staging protests on site (btw, is not an easy task) some groups attack the problem from other angles. .It helps fortify the protest at a different level(s).
Sometimes it may behoove various entities, both poitical and investment to make concessions for political and consequently, money gains. Public opinion is only viable if it can be represented at a level that can actually institute, defer or make changes at the forefront of the project. In this case the estuary and illegal fishing.
This type of protest, which has no appearance of a protest, can yield fast and hopefully positive results.

My point is that although it may seen trivial and too late in some eyes. It is more likely than not that Greenpeace has other cards up their sleeves. They may respond multi-prong with press releases mass emails and a host of other tools. They don't cave-in easily.
It sends a global and more importantly, a local message and a cry for help and support.

You may harbor suspicision and mistrust towards some big orgs and I share same misgivings about a few. Because this stuff is close to home for so many of us I feel a distinct connection with the waters of Baja on a personal level.
Please do a little on your part for with the love for Baja you have. It was so impressive how the Nomads reacted and heled after the flood.. We are a voice, we need to sound off.
So stay tuned, your help may be needed.
We need to help preserve important places like George and Wilderone, Gringorio and Pam speak about.
To you folks, a big tip of the hat. Thanks, Corky

Capt. George - 5-9-2007 at 03:31 AM

quit using all the acetone, how am I gonna get my nail polish off?

Osprey - 5-9-2007 at 06:23 AM

Rays eat clams and scallops. Rays have one main predator, sharks. Down here almost all fishermen with any kind of equipment are taking sharks of any kind, any size (goodbye mullusks) -- turns out the Shark Norma 029 (for the litorals - shoreline environment) means/meant little for the shark fishery, augured very poorly for the bycatch --- we are feeling it now as the dorado catch is way off for the last few years.
I think the clams I get at Soriana's come from Bakersfield

DENNIS - 5-9-2007 at 07:42 AM

Seeing the foto of the shells takes me back to the 50's when, in a gully next to Hoag Hospital in Newport Beach, abalone shells were discarded and piled in huge mounds. No Mother Of Pearl value at that time.
A million years from now, archeologists will come across this landfill and write books about the abalone stuffed indians that once lived on that spot when actually, it was the whiskey stuffed ab divers who would split their time between the Cortez Banks and Woodys Wharf. That probably wont be in the book.

Osprey - 5-9-2007 at 12:45 PM

I too am heartened by Nomad’s grasp of the fishing disaster down here. If we are not quite galvanized we are at least together in the spirit of “something must be done.” I propose an action plan:

I will volunteer to act as control on the plan. It is devilishly simple. All Nomads (except me – control) and all their willing friends will begin a total catch and release program for all fish species.

I will continue to harvest as before and when I see positive increases in the fish count I will report/post on the board. Then we can vote to continue the plan or modify it in some way. We’ll have to give the plan some time to work. Let’s say 5 years to start. Don’t bother to clutter up the board with your “yea’s and right on’s” I know you’re all behind me.

DENNIS - 5-9-2007 at 01:16 PM

Osprey ----

Yeah ..... Right on. Maybe you should expand your responsibilities to Quality Control in the seafood restaurants. Of course, meals should comped in the interest of responsible consistancy. Bon Apetit

Capt. George - 5-9-2007 at 01:53 PM

Jorge I stay away from those (the best there is) Bloody Mary's!

Does this mean I'll have to release Deborah also??

vandenberg - 5-9-2007 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George[

Does this mean I'll have to release Deborah also??

Don't fool yourself George, you're the one that got hooked

Capt. George - 5-9-2007 at 02:27 PM

ain't that right... :bounce:

still like to crank ourselved believing otherwise, DUH

Overheard today in San Lucas

bajajudy - 5-9-2007 at 02:33 PM

After my chiropractor visits, I always walk the San Lucas Marina, because of the flat surface, the boats bobbing in their slips, and the tourist add some degree of entertainment. Today as I was passing a boat, the crew was calling out to passersby...Want to go fishing? Most said a polite, No Thank You. But the guy in front of me said....why go, all the fish are gone. Broke my heart to hear someone say this.

Don Alley - 5-9-2007 at 04:21 PM

http://www.seawatch.org/what_can_you_do/alt_join_seawatch_nl...

A possible alternative to destroying nets.

fishbuck - 5-9-2007 at 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
http://www.seawatch.org/what_can_you_do/alt_join_seawatch_nl...

A possible alternative to destroying nets.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

fishbuck - 5-9-2007 at 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
http://www.seawatch.org/what_can_you_do/alt_join_seawatch_nl...

A possible alternative to destroying nets.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by fishbuck]

Iflyfish - 5-9-2007 at 10:06 PM

Thanks Don

Iflyfish

elizabeth - 5-10-2007 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
http://www.seawatch.org/what_can_you_do/alt_join_seawatch_nl...

A possible alternative to destroying nets.

A good choice, but always dive with scissors just in case...

Osprey - 5-10-2007 at 10:10 AM

Since John Riffe, the contact person, lives in La Paz I'll hook up with him, begin to get a solid chain of evidence on the netter(s) here, confer with him about the corruption reported in the La Paz office that continues to allow the same violations over and over.

DENNIS - 5-10-2007 at 10:56 AM

Be careful.

Baja Bernie - 5-10-2007 at 11:46 AM

I have been allowed to read a few of Osprey's short stories that have not been posted here and I can say that he might as well use a net because he 'always' hauls the unwary on board without there ever realizing that they have been infected with a point or two with which he laces his stories. They may take a bit of time before they sink in but down the road you will be hooked................

Thank you Sir!

FARASHA - 5-10-2007 at 11:54 AM

:yes:

got me hooked too, some time ago!!
I enjoy his stories a lot! cheers from here Osprey >f<

Skeet/Loreto - 5-10-2007 at 12:14 PM

This is not a Story!

Wonder what would happen if a couple of Do-Gooder Mexicanos would go to a Southern Calif. Surf Location and damaged all the SurfBoards saying that the Bodht Oils of the Surfers were killing the fish?
What would happen if they went further North to South Central/East L.A and Beat up all the Dopers and Drug Dealers for Killing PEOPLE!!Posters; Why not spend your effort on saving Peoples lives, teach their Kids to Respect other People and getting the future generations to work together ?

Why are so many, Picking on the Poor uneducated Folks?
Are they Wimps and weakminded, unable to try to change their Fellow Americans??

"What goes around, comes Around".
Skeet/Loreto

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
This is not a Story!

Wonder what would happen if a couple of Do-Gooder Mexicanos would go to a Southern Calif. Surf Location and damaged all the SurfBoards saying that the Bodht Oils of the Surfers were killing the fish?
What would happen if they went further North to South Central/East L.A and Beat up all the Dopers and Drug Dealers for Killing PEOPLE!!Posters; Why not spend your effort on saving Peoples lives, teach their Kids to Respect other People and getting the future generations to work together ?

Why are so many, Picking on the Poor uneducated Folks?
Are they Wimps and weakminded, unable to try to change their Fellow Americans??

"What goes around, comes Around".
Skeet/Loreto

What if Skeets/Loreto dreamed up a bunch of other unlikely senerios? Hey Skeets if you want to go take on the surfers over board wax(I'm sure it doesn't hurt the ocean) or the Bangers in east LA (GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!) go ahead.
In fact where ever people are breaking the law you should go there and take action. Here's an idea, why not start in Baja. Just because people are poor or uneducated does not justify breaking the law or spoiling the enviornment.

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by fishbuck]

DENNIS - 5-10-2007 at 12:34 PM

Skeet ---

What are you talking about?

jerry - 5-10-2007 at 07:55 PM

fishbuck and dennis if you dont understand skeet perhaps you a bigger part of the problem then i thought (you have no soul)

jerry - 5-10-2007 at 08:07 PM

i suggest that the posters here that propose using violence to make there point should go look at their own back yard and see what it breeds
but then what i have seen here i expect the callers are the offenders skeet know what it takes to change a nation of people
it takes people talking to the young( really beliving in what they say) not beatting their chests and going throu the motions of mindless idiots suported by more mindless idots
great story ospray brings out a lot of emotions a different story and you too could be the object of simular actions yup jerry again

jerry - 5-10-2007 at 08:20 PM

tell a mexican who only knows to fish (net fish) is going to hurt someone but not anyone he knows he will listen and go back to fishing its all he knows with out it he and his die if you put your self between him and his expect him to do what is natural to survive

jerry - 5-10-2007 at 08:22 PM

osprey WHAT????

Barry A. - 5-10-2007 at 09:39 PM

Jerry-------If I understand your proposition (and I may not), it sounds to me like you are advocating anarchy. In a civilized society one man's actions that are detrimental to the many must be curtailed or modified lest we all descend into chaos-----that is what "rule of law" is all about.

Without "rule of law" you have chaos, and eventually survival of the "strong" taken to it's extreme.

Paula - 5-10-2007 at 09:57 PM

Jerry!!!

you are sounding a bit like a liberal in fact almost like paula la "socialista" welcome aboard

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
fishbuck and dennis if you dont understand skeet perhaps you a bigger part of the problem then i thought (you have no soul)

Well, Jerry I can't speak for Dennis but your not the first to accuse me of being souless.
But if someone uses the excuse of poverty or lack of education to ruin something (fishstocks) in the long run for his own short term needs, then who exactly is the souless person?
It's happened many times in the US and that's why fishing here is so highly regulated here. And it's working too.

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
tell a mexican who only knows to fish (net fish) is going to hurt someone but not anyone he knows he will listen and go back to fishing its all he knows with out it he and his die if you put your self between him and his expect him to do what is natural to survive

Jerry, I don't know if you bothered to look at this link but if you did you would see that they have a program that offers alternate means of making a living besides over fishing the Sea of Cortez.
Again, it's happened many times in the US. And the people who were dsplaced from the fishing industry found other ways to make a living.
And in many cases the fish stocks are recovering or have completely recovered.
But if over fishing is allowed to continue there is a point where it will colapse and never recover. Is that what you want?

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
http://www.seawatch.org/what_can_you_do/alt_join_seawatch_nl...

A possible alternative to destroying nets.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-11-2007 at 06:17 AM

Fishbuck: I have a suggestion:
Go on a year long trip down the Sea of Cortez-I would prefer in a Panga-
Observe the Large amount of Fishlife, and also the Number of Mexican Fisherman making a living for their Familes!
Then come back and report your findings.
That type of information would be worthwhile , not some Whinie, weak-minded, Berkerely Graduate with a Degree who joins the Sierra Club , beleives all their Lies and decides to go to Baja and Chance the People to beleive as he Does.!!
I speak from 40 years on the Sea of Cortez, listening to all the Do- Gooders telling everyone that the Fishing is Ruined in The Sea of Cortez{ I refer you to Pompano's recent stories and observations about the Amount of Fishing..} to show the Factual evidence of the Amount of Fishing

Some of those Posters sound like Jerry Farwell and Pat Robertson telling everybody "How they think everyone should Live"" just send me a Check so I can help you live the way I want you to Live!

"Youth Thinks it is having Fun--Age Knows when it is"

Skeet/Loreto
.

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 07:34 AM

That's a good one Skeet ----

Fill up three inches of screen space telling Fishbuck what he should do and end it with scatheing denunciation of people who tell others what to do.

Don Alley - 5-11-2007 at 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Fishbuck: I have a suggestion:
Go on a year long trip down the Sea of Cortez-I would prefer in a Panga-
Observe the Large amount of Fishlife, and also the Number of Mexican Fisherman making a living for their Familes!
Then come back and report your findings

Skeet/Loreto
.

True! Today, if you want to catch lots of fish in the SOC, you have to take a year and fish the whole sea. :biggrin:

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 10:31 AM

fishbuck if overfishing is killing the fishery then i suggest you be the first one to stop fishing followed by all the other gringo fisherman and all the fisheaters

not stopping the native fishermen

i live in oregon please tell me about the sucess of the stop comercial fishing on the oregon coast and how well the fisherman and familys are doing??

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 10:48 AM

Barry A you do not understand me first im one saying my opinion there is no way im advocating anarcy

apply rule of law
to ospreys story thats proposing anarchy insiting the massess to violence stiring the pot and his following of chest beaters that are going to change the world lol

mexico is for mexicans if the gringoes dont like it live with it or leave

Osprey - 5-11-2007 at 11:00 AM

Jory, Waht?

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 11:07 AM

Jerry ----

So, revolutions should never happen. The masses should never oppose power and authority. Might is right. George Washington and Benito Juarez were "chest beaters." Rosa Parks was an anarcharist.

What you are, Jerry, is a role model for slavery.

And as for your patented BS line, "if you don't like it, live with it or leave", take it to the streets of L.A. next time the illegals march around telling people that law doesn't matter when it doesn't agree with them.

Yeah Jerry.......You really have it together.

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 11:12 AM

sorry paula im about as liberal as G.W. Bush
but we cant agree on some things

Jerry Rigged

MrBillM - 5-11-2007 at 11:17 AM

It's refreshing to know that Jerry joins myself and others in working towards a stronger Border and Increased Immigration enforcement in the USA to protect that country's society and economy for the AMERICAN CITIZENS. Anyone who doesn't like that should leave, Right ?

I conclude this from his statement that "Mexico is for Mexicans and, if the Gringos don't like it, they should leave".

Speaking at least for myself, I am a LEGAL foreign resident of Mexico and I am always aware and respectful of said condition.

As far as the fishing goes, I can't imagine anyone who could argue that the Fishing Resources in the SOC are anywhere near that of the 50s and 60s, but I know from the same experience in the US that there won't be effective restraint until it is possibly too late, but that's life.

Cypress - 5-11-2007 at 11:38 AM

Even tho Osprey's story is fiction, gill nets, legal or illegal can destroy a fishery. As the fish get smaller, the mesh gets smaller, first adults, then juvies. Before long there's nothing.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-11-2007 at 11:51 AM

Dennis: Please learn to read --Suggestion-!!!!!!

Question? If Netting is takeing all the Fish, Why are the Fisherman still catching Fish????????
Why do not some of you Do Gooders go and Clean up The Bay at Victoria Canada????

Skeet/Loreto

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 12:01 PM

Skeet -----

Neither Jesus Christ or Elmer Gantry ever gave an order in their lives. Only suggestions.
But, you're right, as usual.
See? It's the new me.

Oh yeah, in answer to your net question....... Read Cypress above.

Have a nice day

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 12:06 PM

mr bill i think stronger borders and immigration inforcment are good for societys and econamys on both side of the borders
i too am a legal resident of mexico but it doesnt give me the right to press my beliefes on the mexican people or become political

changing mexico into another california by do-gooders surly will not improve it
education of the mexican people showing them how they can live in socity in harmany and keep there pride will work by example this is not going to happen over night and its not going to happen by burning thier fish nets

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 12:24 PM

Skeet -----

Sorry to bother you but, I had another question which has been lingering in my illiterate mind but forgot to ask. What did you do all of your life that built up your sustained tolerance and blind eye for wanton destruction?
You seem to have some sensitivity to the matter, given your mention of problems in Victoria but here, you seem to turn away from it, like it's not your problem. Is Victoria your problem? If it is, I would have to guess that you ran away from that problem as well.
You have to admit, The "do gooders" are trying to do just that. Why do you become their adversery? Why don't you just let them do what they feel they have to do? It won't hurt you or cost you anything. Maybe someday, you will see the benefits of their acts.

Speaking from the docks of Oregon

Sharksbaja - 5-11-2007 at 12:32 PM

Cuz that's where we work and that's where we get our fish, and that's our livelihood. I thought I'd add my split-shot.
Jerry makes a point about the fisheries here. It's certainly true that a damaged seafloor due to dragging has permanent or at least long term effects. That does not address pelagic fisheries that are affected by other man-made causes.
With that said, it is not hard to miss the dwindling fishing fleet. Salmon is in short supply, crab is off this year, rockfish is over-regulated. Don't worry about halibut, the season is only a few weeks long.
Point is, while we know the over-all picture is bleak, we can't place a finger on exactly who, what or where did our sealife go? Six or seven years ago when salmon(now $14 lb) and crab(now $19 lb) were in big supply and this was after years of declining stocks, everyone was patting the backs of others claiming " The problem is over we saved the salmon!" Our science and concern has brought back the fish they said. Here we are again...
Had me fooled. This port used to be a bustling port for landings of all types of seafood. The blame is now on the commercial fishermen. What a crock! This dinky fleet couldn't do that much damage with all thye regs and gear and conditions put upon them. The science is unclear and not understood, though through years of trying we have managed to save a few(maybe millions of) animals.
What we do know though is that indiscriminate taking of near-shore sealife has detrimental consequences. That holds true along our whole Eastern Pacific Coast. Restrictions placed upon the continental shelf area have had positive results in CA. Same with the white seabass and anchovy.
The whole issue is very complex. Every(ocean) environment has it's weaknesses which in Baja seems quite clear to some folks. Netting CAN be a major concern if not addressed and marshalled. Same with dragging and long-lining and hooka diving.

What is the solution then? ASk a local peon pescador what they think about the problem and ask what they think should be done. What do you think they will say? I hope their explanation has more worth than 10 zillion politicians, researchers and know-it-alls.

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 12:44 PM

Jerry -----

Hi there. Your ideas toward improving Mexico and Mexicans by teaching by example are really good. Everybody knows how responsive they are to our teaching, not to mention our examples. They don't readily forget either. Remember how we taught them how to lose a war and give away half their land? Yeah man, that really showed them how to respect the teacher.
But, history aside, lets deal with today and keep the topic on teachers. There is a good book available from Amazon which you may enjoy and benefit from. It's called "The Joys Of Spelling" by Bruce Leech. You ought to look into that. Order online and shipping is free.

[Edited on 5-11-2007 by DENNIS]

Sharksbaja - 5-11-2007 at 12:57 PM

well there goes the boat.....glug....glug....glug

I don't get it Dennis. WTF does Bruces' (or Jerrys') spelling have to do with netting fish? :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 01:06 PM

Well, I don't know Sharky. This whole thread started with fiction so how long do you want to beat sad facts into the ground?

Don Alley - 5-11-2007 at 04:09 PM

This has really gone south.

Here's some links. Two are links I donate to on a regular basis. Another I just made my first donation to. One I probably won't support, and one I despise.

But don't ask me which is which. Do your own homework and make your own choices. None are perfect, sometimes you have to compromise to work with a group. Or find others. Or start your own organization. Do something or contribute to somebody who does do something.

Or just crap on those who do give a damn, and good luck with your golf game and real estate investments. :fire:

http://www.billfish.org/new/

http://www.wildcoast.net/site/

http://www.propeninsula.org/

http://www.greenpeace.org/mexico/

http://www.geantares.org.mx/about.html

http://www.seawatch.org/index.php

Slowmad - 5-11-2007 at 04:51 PM

On the central Baja coast near Punta X, a small commercial fishing ejido sprang up in the 1960s. They started hookah diving for ab.
By the 70s they wiped out the abalone so they switched to lobster.
By the 80s they wiped out the lobster so they switched to urchin.
By the 90s they wiped out the urchin so they switched to pepino (sea cucumber).
By the 00s they wiped out the pepino.
Now they mine beach rock, filling fabric bags for the construction industry.

Those who claim people are more important than fish have an extremely shallow understanding of how intermingled our destinies are.

Barry A. - 5-11-2007 at 04:55 PM

How strange-------I did not see anybody "crap on those that do give a damn", as Don says. I just saw folks that wondered why Green Peace did not protest this long ago, and it looks like maybe they did.

And also wondered why a local did not obey the law.

I have a hunch that EVERYBODY on this board would like to see things done in a much more environmentally friendly way.

End of story, it seems to me.

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 05:51 PM

Not end of story, Barry.............
There is no end of story. The crap carrys on. And on.
If it has to be stopped, it has to be stopped by those who want it to be stopped. Politicians couldn't care less.

I know you hate this, Barry but a grassroot effort is all that will stop the ruination of our resources. Probably a violent effort.
I'm starting to understand what motivates ELF.

fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slowmad
On the central Baja coast near Punta X, a small commercial fishing ejido sprang up in the 1960s. They started hookah diving for ab.
By the 70s they wiped out the abalone so they switched to lobster.
By the 80s they wiped out the lobster so they switched to urchin.
By the 90s they wiped out the urchin so they switched to pepino (sea cucumber).
By the 00s they wiped out the pepino.
Now they mine beach rock, filling fabric bags for the construction industry.

Those who claim people are more important than fish have an extremely shallow understanding of how intermingled our destinies are.

I think I know this place. Or maybe there are many Punta X locations.
Near San Quintin bay on the pacific side I came across a little fishing village. But something wasn't quite right. All the pangas I could see were old and in disrepair. I recognised the Fish Co-op building but it looked unused.
I ventured down to the nearby beach and saw "burlap" type bags stacked up about every 50 yards. Bags of rocks? What the heck?
A big flatbed truck comes in every couple of weeks and picks up the rocks. They are the small round beach rocks and are use as ornamental covering.
I have often wondered why they don't fish there. I guess I have my answer now. Bummer!

[Edited on 5-12-2007 by fishbuck]

Skeet/Loreto - 5-11-2007 at 07:17 PM

Dennis:
Dennis: It is not the Problems that exsist in all parts of the World but the Manner of Addressing those Problems and the very apparent lack of "Good Ole Horse Sense shown by the so-called "Eco-Nuts"in solving those Problems.

Since you Ask where I came from:
Raised on a small Farm in West Texas which had on the back 20 Acres the Largest Producing RattleSnake Den in the States-The taking of Rattlers for the past 40 years has not reduced the numbers at All-Proven by a Bunch of "Eco-Nuts" who did a Study and agreed that in Truth their was no effect on the taking of the Rattlers .

Hi School in Amarillo Texas where the Eco- Nuts are claiming that the Ogalla Water supply will be deleted in 50 years.,trying to convince people that RAIN is not what related !!
Hooked a Freight out of Amarillo in 1948- Spent the next 2 and 1/2 years as a Hobo, Cowboy, Logger, Service Station Worker returning to Amarillo to enlist in the U>S. Navy where I became a Flight Engineer on PBY6A- Went to Korea and Helped Fight the War.
Left the Navy and received $120 A Month G.I>Bill where I got a Degree in Criminology-working many hours as a House Detective at Yosemite; A Ski Patrolman a Jailer and a Police Officer Campus Police.
Hired by the State as a Special Investigator and worked Hollywood, South Central L.A.
Left Police Work after 3 Years to enter Adjusting Investigations- ending up as Aviation Accident Investigator, Claims Mfg. out of that Lowly place of San Francisco.
Operated a Claims Office in Bishop Calif where when not Working Towed and Flew Gliders into the Sierra- Fishing in the Streams all around.
In 1972 Bought a Snap-On Toll Route for $16,000. 1983 had a Million Dollars so moved to Loreto full time and built Rancho Sonrisa.
Fished the Sea of Cortez for 40 years, mostly in a Panga. Started flying into Loreto in my Cessna 170 B in 1968.

The things I learned from all those experiences in Life was to study and evalute the People behind or involved in any given Situtation

Americans going to other places trying to change People to Beleive as they do, is very suspect to me.

Why not start in the States?

Skeet/Loreto

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