BajaNomad

Grand Cherokees for baja

bajabird - 5-25-2007 at 12:56 PM

anyone with Grand Cherokee upgrades, coments, problems, solutions..... especially to the death wobble problem

Geronimo - 5-25-2007 at 04:40 PM

Do you have it? Trying to avoid it? PM me and I will try to help. Need a lot more info.

Gadget - 5-25-2007 at 06:12 PM

Own a 2000 GC w/ V8 and Quadra drive. Wife would like suspension upgrade. Friends had same year with lift. No idea what brand. Had death wobble. Tried everything to fix, no bueno. Sold it to someone who didn't know better I guess. Worked good in dirt but over 70mph on paverment, watch out!!! I would be very interested to read input on this issue.

Geronimo - 5-25-2007 at 07:08 PM

I have worked on lots of CJ's, YJ's, ZJ's and XJ's, never had one win yet. There are so many issues that cause the DW (death wobble) that is hard to diagnose on the internet. This is not a Jeep thing it can happen to any suspension it is just more prevalent in solid axle vehicles.

1. I always start with the tires, rotate them and test. Broken cords, balance, bent wheels, uneven tread wear, they all can do it.

2. Get under the car, in the front and have someone saw back and forth on the steering wheel (engine running if PS equipped). Lay hands on the tie rods, ball joints, control arm mounts, steering box mount, and the pan hard/track bar. You can feel a bad part lift in you hand. Listen for popping noise, if you hear it, pin point it. Look for tears in the unit body around the steering box and track bar mount.

3. Look for leaks at the axle seals, shocks, and steering stabilizer. This could be a sign that the Dana 30 axle is bent and your alignments are off. It is easier than you think to bend that thing.

4. If car has been modified look at the pinion angle.

These steps will usually find the culprit, If you find a problem, fix it. It may or may not fix the DW, but then it needs doing anyway. It is a process to figure it out, I have seen people throw a lot of money at it and not fix the problem.

Some of the problems I have found personally

1. Tires 80% of the time
2. Track bar issues, bad joints or a bent bar
3. steering box tearing lose from mounts (lots of kits to fix this)
4. steering stabilizers

Gadget, use a good KIT, keep the tires rotated and the problems will be kept to a minimum.

Questions, ask away.

bajabird - 5-25-2007 at 07:09 PM

I had problems after putting the jks kit and terra lift kit on (which is all that is available for the gc). damm, going even 30mph and hitting a rut only on pavement the wobble hits hard and only thing you can do is come to a stop to regain control.... ive searched all the jeep websites and its not uncommon for jeeps and other vehicles that have obtained aftermarket lifts. some basic geometry changes in the steering system couple with the anti lock brake system that causes the chatter.... it is dangerous and can be very fatal on the baja highways as nothing can stop the wobble accept a complete stop.....

try to stop when passing anything.

high tire pressure has been my cure along with alignment. it still wants (the wobble) to happen but it hasnt yet. it has though with low tire pressure... i dont get it, but i also get it

anyways, thats just a fault. i love my jeep grand cherokee and the power it has. but i am cautious about driving it, or loaning it to anyone who will be on highway with it. never a problem off road.

i would love to know of other upgrades to do to it.

and, my doors are ready to vibrate off when running the washboard roads, any suggestions?
i thought about putting rubber dampners along the door sealing area to make it tighter.

Geronimo - 5-25-2007 at 07:34 PM

You have put a little band aid on it with the tire presure, lower your tires and find the problem.

I need to know more, Tire size? how much lift? are your control arms adjustable? Is your front drive shaft looking straight at your T-case? What shocks are you running?

BajaBruno - 5-26-2007 at 05:44 PM

I have a '97 GC (street use only, with 75k miles) that had a howling/grinding noise in the rear end. I just got it back from the rear end specialist who replaced the carrier bearings and the pinon bearing(s). This is now the second time (different repairman this time) for this repair. He mentioned the Dana rear end is "much less than rugged). I don't think this is news to GC people.

My dearly beloved who drives the car loves it---I'm much less impressed with it.

rts551 - 5-26-2007 at 08:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
I have worked on lots of CJ's, YJ's, ZJ's and XJ's, never had one win yet. There are so many issues that cause the DW (death wobble) that is hard to diagnose on the internet. This is not a Jeep thing it can happen to any suspension it is just more prevalent in solid axle vehicles.



Man I'm glad you did not say MB/GPW.... Have had jeeps for many years... Don't know why but most folks always overlook the steering dampner/stabilizer. Like most shocks, they wear out and are an easy fix.


the only wobble mine has is the heart wobble when the throttle is pushed too hard

100_1838 (Small) (Custom).jpg - 46kB

rts551 - 5-26-2007 at 08:42 PM

And you ask why a heart wobble on a 1943 GPW? but no steering wobble

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by rts551]

100_1839 (Custom).jpg - 34kB

Ken Cooke - 5-26-2007 at 10:53 PM

I too had a worn stock steering stabilizer that contributed greatly to my DW problems after lifting my Jeep.

bajabird - 5-27-2007 at 06:10 PM

I have 33" goodrich at's, american racing wheels (centered). JKS lift, bilsein 5500 shocks, Rancho stabilzer, and completely went through the front end. There hasnt been any wobble since the front end work and alignment, though on some ruts.... the front end kinda feels like it wants to wobble. One thing that was found was that the steering box was not impacted totally tight as well. Its been a year since the last wobble though, and that one was on the way to the alignment shop in constitution city. From there it went to the race shop for total front end makeover.

bajabird - 5-27-2007 at 06:11 PM

Nice rig RTS!

Geronimo - 5-27-2007 at 09:04 PM

Could be bump steer. Look at the angle of the steering in relation to the angle of the track bar. In the pic you will see that they are nearly parallel during articulation. This is good, if yours is not you will need to modify the steering and/or track bar to fix this. Did your kit include a modified track bar or a dropped pitman arm?

Kenneth

Photo credit: www.tntcustoms.com

Truss_d30Sample4.jpg - 34kB

Geronimo - 5-27-2007 at 09:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBruno
I have a '97 GC (street use only, with 75k miles) that had a howling/grinding noise in the rear end. I just got it back from the rear end specialist who replaced the carrier bearings and the pinon bearing(s). This is now the second time (different repairman this time) for this repair. He mentioned the Dana rear end is "much less than rugged). I don't think this is news to GC people.

My dearly beloved who drives the car loves it---I'm much less impressed with it.


The ruggedness of the rear axle has nothing to do with the fact that the bearings went out. They went out from being installed wrong or lack of lubrication. The Dana 35 and 44(with an aluminum center section) are both found in ZJ's. With less than 33's and a limited slip or open dif you can go 300,000 miles no problem. The lube needs to be replaced every 30g or so, I use synthetic in mine (limited slips need extra friction lube, with syn or Dino oil). In a street/non towing application there is zero wear on the bearings. Change the fluid and you will never have to think about it again (if you specialist shimmed everything right)

Geronimo - 5-27-2007 at 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
And you ask why a heart wobble on a 1943 GPW? but no steering wobble

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by rts551]


Nice flatty, I have a 41 Ford GPW that needs some work, It has also been upgraded with with modern 4 banger out of a 47'.

rts551 - 5-27-2007 at 09:40 PM

Geronimo

These people are talking about wobble at speed. While a bump can cause the wobble to start... and continue due to poor suspension or tires.. this is not true bump steer is it? I have found that what really happens is an oscillation . Most of the time it happens at lower speeds (30 mph) and can only be stopped by a good steering stabilizer and/or repairing parts that allow looseness in the front end allowing the oscillation to start to begin with. This can happen regardless of the lift. Most of my experience has been with older CJ's and Ford 4x4's.
Comment?

rts551 - 5-27-2007 at 09:50 PM

The Dana's are not problem.. Dana 44 posi (3.73) in the rear of the 47' pushed by 327ci 350 hp, th350 trans. never a problem with the rear.


Geronimo

Always had flat fendered jeeps.. the 47 is a hotrod I need to sell . I also have a 52 cj3a with a 225 v6 that is much more practical (and has sentimental value since I have owned it for 35 years).

Baja_Girl - 5-27-2007 at 09:52 PM

bird, you there?

bajabird - 5-27-2007 at 09:55 PM

Geronimo,
Yes, the JIK did come with a bent and adjustable track bar.

I am not currently experiencing any wobbles; just the once bitten.... damn it's something nasty. (the wobble). On the wobble issue: I did every bit of research I could. Agree, it is not just for jeeps. It has to be caused by the geometric change that happens from varied lift kits and the uncorrected changes to the factory engineered system.

I would love to get some lift and suspension for my US based 2003 land cruiser. Theres nothing available for it and it is a piece of #@#( on the offroad, and worse when it comes to power. Oh well, thats another topic.

I love my grand cherokee, it has power to pull the big boat, off road excellence (accept for the currently rattling doors) 4wd. Great vehicle. I wonder what else I can to to make it better? JKS good stuff, and the terra lift were the main add ons. KN filter, throttle body spacer, race radio, boat radio, cooler usually full of coronas, jeeps are just baja nice.

Geronimo - 5-27-2007 at 11:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Geronimo

These people are talking about wobble at speed. While a bump can cause the wobble to start... and continue due to poor suspension or tires.. this is not true bump steer is it? I have found that what really happens is an oscillation . Most of the time it happens at lower speeds (30 mph) and can only be stopped by a good steering stabilizer and/or repairing parts that allow looseness in the front end allowing the oscillation to start to begin with. This can happen regardless of the lift. Most of my experience has been with older CJ's and Ford 4x4's.
Comment?


He was talking about feeling it come on while in articulation at unknown speed, and it not actually happening. That is where the Bump theory came from. Once at 75mph on the 202 near the 101 I hit an expansion joint and started the DW. A friend was behind and said he thought my rear tires were going to come off the ground. I was so used to it that I simplely headed into the dirt median and back onto the freeway, he about soiled himself.

I have chased it several times with my XJ, once it took 7.5 hours to do the 4.5 hour trip from San Felipe to Salome. I agree DW is very common on stock vehicles. I have seen it on several makes of solid axle trucks (Ford, Toy, Chevy, Jeep) and on TTB and I beam Fords. I have seen one A arm chevy truck do it but the ball joint broke in mid DW, an easy diagnoses.

Gadget - 5-28-2007 at 06:23 PM

I have hand built the suspension front and rear on my Pre-runner Bronco GSB. It has 16" of travel front and rear, and no track or sway bars. The front TTB 4WD I beams have been engineered to pivot at the stock points and lift is achieved by cutting and welding / plating the knuckles back on to provide for stock spec on alignment. I also welded 6 degrees of positive caster into the knuckles. It handles like its on rails at any speed in the dirt or pavement. Windy mountain roads of Baja that used to be a wallowing ordeal are now a point and shoot pleasure. Disc brakes on all 4 corners help greatly also.
I think the single biggest problem with most mass produced suspension systems is they don't address proper alignment specs and may even put the vehicle into a negative caster situation. I've heard that many high performance vehicles have up to 12 degrees of pos caster. You give the vehicle turning input via the steering wheel and when you stop it snaps back to going straight.

bajalou - 5-28-2007 at 08:21 PM

An article explaining toe, caster and camber

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

BajaBruno - 5-28-2007 at 10:20 PM

Well Geronimo, I hope you are correct about the rear end. I'm leaving with it next week to tow my (light) boat to La Paz from Central Cal, so we'll see how the little darling does. I'll change the fluid, as always, when the odometer says to do it.

jimgrms - 5-29-2007 at 07:02 AM

I have put over 300,000 miles on 2 xj's only mods were shocks and tires no lift's, never had a death wobble, i maintain the car,s right and don't do any extream stuff, do get a little bit of head shake (bump steer) when on a curve at 70 mpg or so ( solid axel i think) They will last forever if you take care of them

[Edited on 5-29-2007 by jimgrms]

mtgoat666 - 5-29-2007 at 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabird
anyone with Grand Cherokee upgrades, coments, problems, solutions..... especially to the death wobble problem


had a cherokee once. now got a toyota 4runner. world of difference, for mechanical/electrical reliability, toyota beats jeep any day.

Ken Cooke - 5-29-2007 at 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by bajabird
anyone with Grand Cherokee upgrades, coments, problems, solutions..... especially to the death wobble problem


toyota beats jeep any day.


What? Blasphemy! :mad:

David K - 5-30-2007 at 07:32 AM

No Ken, just 'truth'!:yes::biggrin: Just ask Neal Johns....:light::smug:

Edguero - 6-9-2007 at 08:06 AM

Found this while surfing, anybody have there products?

Q: been doing a lot of reading about lifts for thw wj and one of the biggest complaints was about death wobble. What does your company do differently to avoid death wobble? Do the polyurethane spacers give your kit the lift or the springs or both? is there any guarentee against death wobble? thanks Jun-06-07
A: Actually... the lift or components of the lift do not cause Death Wobble. Wobble is caused by one of two things... either a tire out of balance (or round), or improper alignment. Alot of guys try and save a few bucks by installing their lift and not having a computerized front-end alignment. If you don't correct the castor on the Jeep, you can get the wobble. So by saving themselves $80 for an alignment, not only are they wearing out their tires faster and reducing their fuel economy, they are getting a wobble. Not the fault of any lift though, it is the alignment or tires that do this. Our kit provides Old Man Emu springs which are well know to be the finest riding spring on the planet for any vehicle. Lots of companies can include some cheap crummy riding springs at a full lift height of 3.5 inches. We are sticking with the proven best springs. their downside is that they are only 1.5 inches tall. So we couple them with some coil spacers for the full 3.5 inches of lift. If you have further questions, please feel free to email us direct from our website at... http://www.rocky-road.com/grand.html

TMW - 6-9-2007 at 11:02 AM

Speaking of wheel alignment and camber. On my 91 chevy 4x4 the outside front tires always would wear requiring me to either flip them or rotate them. This was reguardless of who or where I got an alignment from. I dicided to experiment with the camber. I tried both a little negitive and positive camber. There is a very windy road up to the mountains and after an adjustment I would run up the road. I found that negitive camber would cause the wheels to squeel like hell, the more the louder it was, like in the old movies. I finally settled for a very small amount of positive camber. Never had a problem with outside tire wear again.

BajaBruno - 6-10-2007 at 11:02 AM

Geronimo, the Jeep survived the trip to La Paz. No incidents. The suspension does squeek and sqeal like a donkey, but I have never figured out what´s making those noises. Towed the boat like it wasn´t back there. I´ll let you know in a month if it gets me back to California!