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No Amnesty!

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fishbuck - 5-25-2007 at 03:03 PM

GrassFire.org - Real Impact Online.
Address:http://www.grassfire.org/42/petition.asp?PID=13476250&NID=1

Bajalero - 5-25-2007 at 07:55 PM

thanks fishbuck

lero

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 08:09 PM

hey Fish -------

I agree..... No Amnesty.

But, I'm at a loss to figure what is feasible. What do you think would work?
I mean, there are more than twenty times as many illegals in the U.S. as we have in our military, just to give it scale, so what are the options?

Please ....... Let's hear just one. I will support anything that makes sense.

Bajaboy - 5-25-2007 at 08:14 PM

How did this get into General Baja Discussion?

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 08:19 PM

Well, probably 'cause it's a problem for Yankee Doodle Americans who live in Baja as well as other places.
If it bums you out, start your own thread.

fishbuck - 5-25-2007 at 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
hey Fish -------

I agree..... No Amnesty.

But, I'm at a loss to figure what is feasible. What do you think would work?
I mean, there are more than twenty times as many illegals in the U.S. as we have in our military, just to give it scale, so what are the options?

Please ....... Let's hear just one. I will support anything that makes sense.

I don't have a clue Dennis. It will take someone far wiser than I.

Paula - 5-25-2007 at 08:23 PM

Note to Self

Do Not let this simplistic right wing drivel get to you... under no circumstances should you post on this thread.... this is an argument you cannot win, no matter how right you are...people who buy into this stuff will never allow themselves to change their minds.... do NOT post on this thread, no matter what....

fishbuck - 5-25-2007 at 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
How did this get into General Baja Discussion?

I would imagine that alot of them came from or through Baja. But I see it's been moved to "Political". Maybe that's better.

longlegsinlapaz - 5-25-2007 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Note to Self

Do Not let this simplistic right wing drivel get to you... under no circumstances should you post on this thread.... this is an argument you cannot win, no matter how right you are...people who buy into this stuff will never allow themselves to change their minds.... do NOT post on this thread, no matter what....

You are a very wise woman!! :bounce:

Paula - 5-25-2007 at 08:31 PM

Longlegs in La Paz

muchisimas gracias!

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 08:36 PM

Awww, come on Paula..........Let's hear it.

Paula - 5-25-2007 at 08:37 PM

No Way, Dennis

Amnesty for all!

Lee - 5-25-2007 at 08:38 PM

Until someone has a better solution, the Mexicans get the benefit of the doubt.

There's room for everyone. The US is a big place.

GrassFire? They REALLY don't like Mexicans.

:cool:

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
the Mexicans get the benefit of the doubt.

Oh good. More benefits.

Paula - 5-25-2007 at 08:43 PM

Thank you Lee! Very nicely stated...

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Note to Self

Do Not let this simplistic left wing drivel get to you... under no circumstances should you post on this thread.... this is an argument you cannot win, no matter how left you are...people who buy into this stuff will never allow themselves to change their minds.... do NOT post on this thread, no matter what....

Hey Paula ..... Just for fun, I only changed one word twice. That word will probably be so warm and fuzzy to you, and Lee and Legs, you probably won't even see it.

fishbuck - 5-25-2007 at 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
Until someone has a better solution, the Mexicans get the benefit of the doubt.

There's room for everyone. The US is a big place.

GrassFire? They REALLY don't like Mexicans.

:cool:

Well GrassFire states on their emails that it costs $3 in government services for every $1 collected from the illegals in taxes. Guess who pays it Lee.
As far as plenty of room? I guess you haven't been to SoCal for a while. Now if you want to invite them all to Boulder I'm all for that.

Paula - 5-25-2007 at 09:02 PM

Yep, Dennis, left is right, and I'm not even dyslexic :lol:

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 09:11 PM

C'mon Larry ..... You would need a million man institution, police, courts etc, to enforce the law as it is.
Screw cheap labor. If I need an illegal to mow my lawn, I'll put down concrete.

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Yep, Dennis, left is right, and I'm not even confused :lol:

Hey Paula----- I only changed one word and.......

You know I'm just kidding, I hope

Paula - 5-25-2007 at 09:24 PM

Well, Dennis-- there are things I know, and things I think I know, and things I think I think and things I know I think, and when it all comes down to it....

.... no.... I'm not sure...

DENNIS - 5-25-2007 at 09:30 PM

Well, as long as you know for sure that you're not sure, that's something.........for sure.

I have no answers

Lee - 5-25-2007 at 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck

Well GrassFire states on their emails that it costs $3 in government services for every $1 collected from the illegals in taxes. Guess who pays it Lee.
As far as plenty of room? I guess you haven't been to SoCal for a while. Now if you want to invite them all to Boulder I'm all for that.

The politics and economics of immigration is lost on me. How about a higher wall? How about building prisons on the US side of the border with viewing holes in the wall so Mexicans can see they're families on the other side? It's all ridiculous.

I don't think the Mexicans are clogging up the I-5 or 405 and I spend as much time in SoCal as I do in Boulder.

I don't mind funneling some of my taxes and money going to that freaking war in the Middle East to provide better solutions to the border problems we have.

I think alot of people are pi**ed off -- especially if they live in California -- and Mexicans are an easy target. The racism surfacing from the border issues doesn't surprise me.

It does surprise me that there are Nomads who like Baja but don't really like Mexicans. Just a feeling I get. GrassFire is an example of racism. Ask a legal Mexican what they think.

:cool:

Dave - 5-25-2007 at 09:54 PM

I favor amnesty for everything...in advance. :biggrin:

If the President really wanted to solve the illegal problem he could do it by proclamation.

bajadogs - 5-25-2007 at 10:18 PM

“Mexicans are an easy target” - Lee

You nailed it Lee. Mexicans are the first to be taken advantage of - AND the first to be blamed.
Many fear the “illegal” migrant strawberry-pickers.
It seems pure racism to me.

bd

edit - typo

[Edited on 5-26-2007 by bajadogs]

fishbuck - 5-25-2007 at 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Ya I'm with you on that I don't know the answer.
But the walls do work sort of. The poor desparate mexicans are funneled away from certain areas and then try to cross where it's more dangerous. And yes we will probably need more prisons as a deterent for breaking the law by entering illegally.
Of the 12 million illegal mexicans how many are in Socal. 2,3,or 5 million? I could live without them and I'm sure it would be noticeable.
Don't even get started on the war.
I've never noticed anything racist in GrassFire. It's about illegal immigration. I think it would be the same if the illegals were from Canada, or Eastern Europe. You know, white people. Illegal is illegal no matter what race you are.
I think alot of people who go to baja don't care about the local population. That's not what they are going there for.
I've met alot of Baja Californios who I've liked and a few I didn't.
But that happens everywhere you go even in the good ole US of A.
But that's life isn't it?

Bajafun777 - 5-25-2007 at 10:30 PM

Racism and illegal immigration are not the same!! I get tired of hearing this B.S. Illegal is Illegal and if we are not going to follow the law then change it or enforce it, two choices. I still think we need a level playing field and if Mexico is pushing the U.S.A. to accept all illegals and make immigration easier then let them do the same!!! Don't hold another Country to lesser standard than your own Country that is creating the problem to begin with. It's not right wing or left wing to stand up for the law, it is the American thing. Right should still be Right and Wrong should still be Wrong. I do not hate any race or culture but I do respect what their laws are and play by their rules when in their Country. I do not try to force my own wants above what the Country I am entering into has. If I do not want to follow their laws or abide by them then I need to get out or better yet stay out. I love going to Mexico and have more Mexican friends than I do anglo friends. However, that doesn't mean I have to give a free pass to any other Country's Nationals that deliberately seek to violate my Country's laws and openly challenge my Country's laws by Marching with flags not of my Country and continually challenging my Country's laws. Try that in Mexico if you dare as a group and in fact try burning a Mexican Flag in your March in Mexico. Now quick be honest what's going to happen to you? Our immigration laws are not the best but until our Congress and President do something different then what is in place should be followed. Now, let the finger pointing begin but all I know is "No Hurry, No Worry, Just Fun," as life is just to short for all of this high intense thinking. Since in reality all of this means nothing, unfortunately. Dennis and Paula will you both pop another cold one for me too?? bajafun777

bajadogs - 5-25-2007 at 10:32 PM

So, when do we start building a wall from Vancouver to Nova Scotia?

amir - 5-26-2007 at 01:01 AM

The US benefits from illegal immigration. They can then wage a war on illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants provide cheap slave labor for capitalism. There was a time when slavers kidnapped Africans and ferried them across the ocean at great expense. Now the slaves are sneaking in themselves across the border at their own expense. This saves money that can be invested in other wars.

War on illegal immigrants. War on poverty. War on drugs. War on terrorism. Wars are profitable, very profitable. If there was no profit in illegal immigration, it wouldn't exist. Those that are benefitting don't want to change the status quo. What I hear from them is doublespeak.

--Amir

Cypress - 5-26-2007 at 06:10 AM

Have not even read the new immigration law, if it's anything like the US Income Tax Codes, wouldn't be able to understand it anyway.

If you have a law and it isn't enforced, what good is it? :?:

Get a high-tech national ID that's hard to counterfit. If an employer has folks on the job that don't have 'em, put the owner/manager/employer in jail, not the worker. :spingrin:

Amnesty?

It might be a step in the right direction. If they're criminals, deport 'em. This problem isn't gonna solve itself.

DENNIS - 5-26-2007 at 07:37 AM

Higher insurance rates can be just as much a deterrent as the unseen officer.

[Edited on 5-26-2007 by DENNIS]

Mexitron - 5-26-2007 at 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck

Quote:

That may be true but don't forget the money saved by being able to pay less for wages...I imagine we still come out ahead or we wouldn't be hiring them.

Bajalover - 5-26-2007 at 07:52 AM

Amnesty? It isn't that easy. There really isn't any other choice, if you rationally think about it. Yet, IF WASHINGTON changes only 1 rule it would make a big difference. The USA is the only country where a baby born to foreign parents is "auto" a US Citizen (this opens a BARN door really wide). Whether it's Brazil, Germany, Italy, Japan, or India - a baby born to non country citizens gets the parents citizenship until he or she is of voting age when the choice of nationality made. This is a hot topic and whether it's Bush or Kennedy - neither will tackle this because it costs votes. Okay, that's my ten cents. Baja is a better place. Keep me there and let me have some more fish tacos and Pacificos. Cheers!

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck

Quote:

That may be true but don't forget the money saved by being able to pay less for wages...I imagine we still come out ahead or we wouldn't be hiring them.

Ya, I keep hearing that. But I haven't saved or made any money from them being here. If fact it's a big pain in the a$$.
So if gas was cheaper with them here or housing more affordable then maybe I wouldn't mind.
So what exactly is cheaper from them being here? It costs us more not saves us money. Sure some business owners might benefit but the average Joe (like me) get stuck holding the bill. If those business owners who profit from illegal immigration/workers were passing along the savings maybe it would be ok. But they don't. They still charge whatever the market will bear for their goods and services and keep their illegal profits to themselves.
And all the Joe Q Publics that play by the rules end up paying higher taxes and higher insurance costs and higher everything costs.
It will be cheaper when they are gone!

bajalou - 5-26-2007 at 01:24 PM

If SS payments aren't made into the system, it's the employer that is breaking the law. If no income tax is withheld and paid to IRS and others, it's the employer who is breaking the law.

But we sure wouldn't want to bother any patriotic American employer with legal action for these crimes, would we - that wouldn't be the American way - so blame someone else for their crimes.

The labor costs always get passed on to the end user. If the company pays $10 per hour or $100 per hour, you, the consumer of his product will pay the cost - there is no other way to stay in business.

[Edited on 5-26-2007 by bajalou]

Cypress - 5-26-2007 at 01:30 PM

bajalou! :bounce:

You've pretty much simplified the issue. :bounce:

Thanks.

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
If SS payments aren't made into the system, it's the employer that is breaking the law. If no income tax is withheld and paid to IRS and others, it's the employer who is breaking the law.

But we sure wouldn't want to bother any patriotic American employer with legal action for these crimes, would we - that wouldn't be the American way - so blame someone else for their crimes.

The labor costs always get passed on to the end user. If the company pays $10 per hour or $100 per hour, you, the consumer of his product will pay the cost - there is no other way to stay in business.

[Edited on 5-26-2007 by bajalou]

Free market capitalism chargers whatever the market will bear.
So whether he pays $10 or $100 for his labor the market value of the product or service is the same.
That's why they hire they illigal immigrant/worker. They get to keep that $90 difference as profit. When in reality it may cost $100 for the worker to live within society.
We the public end up paying that difference.

amir - 5-26-2007 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou

The labor costs always get passed on to the end user. If the company pays $10 per hour or $100 per hour, you, the consumer of his product will pay the cost - there is no other way to stay in business.

But if the company was paying $100 per hour before, and then they hire illegals and only pay $10 per hour after, they will not pass on the savings to the end user! The problem is GREED. And to show increased profits to their investors, businesses will even break the law. There are laws to curtail illegal activities, but often these laws are not enforced, or they are legislated without teeth for the sole purpose of benefitting business.

--Amir

The blame game

Lee - 5-26-2007 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
Ya, I keep hearing that. But I haven't saved or made any money from them being here. If fact it's a big pain in the a$$.
So if gas was cheaper with them here or housing more affordable then maybe I wouldn't mind.
So what exactly is cheaper from them being here? It costs us more not saves us money. Sure some business owners might benefit but the average Joe (like me) get stuck holding the bill. If those business owners who profit from illegal immigration/workers were passing along the savings maybe it would be ok. But they don't. They still charge whatever the market will bear for their goods and services and keep their illegal profits to themselves.
And all the Joe Q Publics that play by the rules end up paying higher taxes and higher insurance costs and higher everything costs.
It will be cheaper when they are gone!

This reads like you aren't making ''money'' from undocumented Mexicans being in the US -- and that's a pain to you. If housing or gas was cheaper, then it would be OK for these people to be here. Am I reading this right?

When the undocumented Mexican workers go back to Mexico, taxes and insurance in the US will drop. Is that what you mean?

What a pathetic point of view.

What bothers me is that you denigrate 12 million Mexicans (or other Latino races involved in this number) blaming them for your financial statement and the US government's ineptitude at allowing this to happen.

Your reference to Mexican people as ''them'' says something about your attitude, generally. Us vs. them.

My impression is you don't like Mexicans, whether they are ''legal'' or not.

Blame your government -- Republicans and Democrats alikely -- for the years it took these millions to come across the border.

I don't promote anyone being here undocumented but I don't see Mexicans as terrorists and opportunists, though some might be here for opportunities. Coming across the border illegally is a desparate act -- and I sense, these people have nothing to lose.

Blame the Mexican government while you're at it.

:cool:

elizabeth - 5-26-2007 at 02:37 PM

The current proposed legislation doesn't offer amnesty. It offers a long, expensive, process for ultimate residency.

Contrary to popular belief, it is not a crime to be here illegally, you cannot go to jail, you can be deported. (There are exeptions if you have previously been convicted of a crime and deported.)

No one agrees about the cost of undocumented immigrants. What isn't factored in, are the number of people who use phony ss numbers, and pay taxes that they don't get back.

Another thing to think about is just how much your food would cost if it wasn't grown and processed by largely undocumented people.

How many of you employ undocumented housecleaners and gardeners? How many of you have had social interaction with people who are undocumented and know just how much they are exploited by people who hire them and don't pay?

And just who would do the jobs? How many paradas have you seen that were white and black citizens waiting for a day job?

I believe in open borders...Is it time to start throwing those undocumented migrant picked tomatoes at me?

DianaT - 5-26-2007 at 02:37 PM

Quote:

I try to not even read these threads and when I do, I make sure I am not logged in---can't post that way.

I have only wandered into Off-Topic a couple of times---found my wayout real fast.

Love your comments---opps, now I have broken my own rule and have posted in one of these. But in the words of Monica Goodling, "I didn't mean to."
Diane

[Edited on 5-26-2007 by jdtrotter]

Hook - 5-26-2007 at 02:59 PM

Agree completely.

There should be no amnesty to employers who hire illegals and no amnesty for politicians who stick the states with the costs of of their being here.

I think the current plan is a decent compromise. I dont care that it calls for building fewer miles of fencing; I think we can do a decent job with electronic surveylance means in many of these areas.

I REALLY have a problem with the children of illegal aliens being automatically declared citizens.

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Well, you are doing a good job of trying to make me out as the villian and "them" as some sort of victim.
My point was that people have said US citizens(us) benefit financially from illegal mexican(or other than mexican) immigrant labor(them).
I don't agree and neither does GrassFire. My belief is it costs me personally for them to be here . Financially and otherwise.
They(them) have entered the country illegally and are stealing from me(and you!). That is what I don't like. I don't care what there race or nationality is.
Their very first act was to break to the law by entering the US illegally. That is what I don't like.
They continue to break US law and do so because they are "desparate". Last time I checked being desparate is not an acceptable reason to break the law.
Please let me know when being "desparate" is an acceptable reason to break the law because I will rob the first bank I see.
I like mexicans just as well as I like members of any race or ethnic group.
If you obey the law and contribute to the betterment of society I like you. If your a liar or a cheater and steal from society I don't like you.
Blame? Who cares! I'm willing to take my share of responsibilty to straighten this mess out.
Here in Costa Mesa we voted to check immigration status on anyone arrested for any reason. We're getting rid of about 50 of these people per month. It's a slow process but already things are improving.
So if your here illegally get the hell out! We're coming for you.
And if you're in Mexico illegally get legal. Follow the law of the land.
And if the cost of tomatos(or strawberries) goes up a penny to have someone in the country legally pick so be it. That's what being a responsible American is all about. Doing the right (legal, ethical) thing no matter what the cost is.
Liars, cheaters, law breakers NOT welcome! I don't care how desparate they are.

[Edited on 5-26-2007 by fishbuck]

Don Alley - 5-26-2007 at 04:02 PM

Send 'em all back to Mexico to eat roosterfish. :lol:

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
Send 'em all back to Mexico to eat roosterfish. :lol:

Well, I guess that would prove how desparate they are.

Cypress - 5-26-2007 at 04:31 PM

Roosterfish! Good fighters, but to eat? Yuck! :lol:

A Jack Crevalle with frills!

Don Alley - 5-26-2007 at 05:25 PM

This Thread Has Been Hijacked!

Actually, I know local Mexicans who eat roosterfish and jack crevalle, and say it's good.

Blinded by the Light

MrBillM - 5-26-2007 at 05:37 PM

It is becoming increasingly doubtful that the proposed legislation is going to survive the Congressional and Public Scrutiny.

The original hope for the GOP and Dem Rascals was that they could do a quick slide through before people started looking to hard. The reason they wanted this bill is simple. The most important thing to ANY Politician is to get himself (herself) reelected and continue sucking on the public teat. Because they are both afraid of how the immigration issue will shake out in individual races, they hoped to take it off the table as a partisan issue. Thankfully, it didn't work out.

On the morning after the bill was announced, the San Diego Union-Tribune's lead editorial was a glowing endorsement of the agreement. However, in Thursday's edition, they wrote something of a Mea Culpa saying that the bill was seriously flawed and would need much work. They still defended their original editorial endorsement as a "Good First Step", but noted that many of the things Claimed by the backers have turned out to be false, especially the so-called "Triggers" which turn out to be mostly illusionary in the actual wording.

The upcoming debate will be a lot more difficult than the Swim Champ thought.

bajalou - 5-26-2007 at 05:47 PM

If you don't believe that prices will rise if employers go from paying $10 per hour to $100 per hour you're in some dream world. To stay in business, you have to make a profit. You can be greedy and make a big profit, or noble and make only a small profit, but a profit must be made or there will no longer be a company to hire anyone or sell anything.

And you obviously don't want to comment on the employers who don't pay the SS and taxes to the government for their workers.

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
If you don't believe that prices will rise if employers go from paying $10 per hour to $100 per hour you're in some dream world. To stay in business, you have to make a profit. You can be greedy and make a big profit, or noble and make only a small profit, but a profit must be made or there will no longer be a company to hire anyone or sell anything.

And you obviously don't want to comment on the employers who don't pay the SS and taxes to the government for their workers.

Well, they can raise their prices all they want. The market will still only pay whatever it will bear. Prices are generally as high as the market will bear already. I already pay about $.75 for an apple and I won't pay more. Didn't an illegal immigrant/worker pick that apple? Why is it so expensive?
A lot of the employer/employee relationships are contractor/subcontrctor type with the employee assuming responsibilty for all taxes etc.
It's a cash economy so good luck policing that.
You seem determined to place the blame on the employers. Well if these illegal immigrant/workers were not availible and willing to work for far less than what it cost to be part of society then the employer would hire US citizens who would need to be paid the real cost of being part of society.
Sure prices might go up but people would only pay so much. If the price goes above that no one buys. It's the law of supply and demand. If prices go up then they go up. That's how much it really costs. And it's a start at eliminating all the hidden costs of illegal immgration.
You seem to imply that since employers are willing to break the law that it's okay for these illegal immigrant/workers to break the law. No it isn't
Those employers should be prosecuted and many have been. There's been lots of raids and hopfully there will be more.
The employers will end up fined or in jail and the illegals will be put on a bus and shipped across the border. And if their dumb enough to come back we'll put them in jail for a while before we ship them back.

bajajudy - 5-26-2007 at 06:39 PM

Just what we need...........more prisoners

Hook - 5-26-2007 at 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Just what we need...........more prisoners

Not to worry, Judy. The country club type prisions for business leaders have plenty of room since Bush took over. :yes:

A hundred dollars an hour, Lou? Well, then there would be no problem finding AMERICANS to do that work. I'd quit my job and pick strawberries for 100/hour.

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Just what we need...........more prisoners

The cost of maintaining a society. The alternative is anarchy and lawlessness.

Packoderm - 5-26-2007 at 06:55 PM

It's not as if the U.S. really depends on illegal labor for life as we know it. If every single illegal immigrant were to return to their home country tomorrow, we could round up a surplus of guest workers who will work for cheap from countries such as India in the snap of our fingers. Also, labor represents only approx. 10% of the total cost of producing agricultural products, so if wages were to be increased tenfold, we would be paying $3.00 per pound of apples. Big woop.

But I have long contended that the U.S.'s effort at controlling our Southern border is token at best. If a new generation of Mexican immigrant were to appear, a generation of workers that takes organization of labor very seriously and works successfully toward expanding union membership and ending exploitation of all workers - immigrant and otherwise, the U.S. government would somehow miraculously formulate a method that effectively and immediately halts the infiltration of undocumented immigrants into our country, and we would then get those guest workers from India. You know, it gets really easy to forget that this is our country after all.

So, if we want cheap Mexican labor, that's fine, but let's keep it above the table with guest worker programs. Japan has an effective guest worker program that brings in much needed, cheap blue collar labor from South Korea. If they can do it, why can't we?

Packoderm - 5-26-2007 at 07:31 PM

And on top of all this, we are not doing Mexico any big favors by providing the pressure relief valve that prevents much needed change within Mexico.

Paula - 5-26-2007 at 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

I believe in open borders...Is it time to start throwing those undocumented migrant picked tomatoes at me?

I agree 100%, Elizabeth.

And in this heat, a tomato shower could be very refreshing :biggrin:

The blame game

Lee - 5-26-2007 at 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
But I have long contended that the U.S.'s effort at controlling our Southern border is token at best. If a new generation of Mexican immigrant were to appear, a generation of workers that takes organization of labor very seriously and works successfully toward expanding union membership and ending exploitation of all workers - immigrant and otherwise, the U.S. government would somehow miraculously formulate a method that effectively and immediately halts the infiltration of undocumented immigrants into our country, and we would then get those guest workers from India. You know, it gets really easy to forget that this is our country after all.

So, if we want cheap Mexican labor, that's fine, but let's keep it above the table with guest worker programs. Japan has an effective guest worker program that brings in much needed, cheap blue collar labor from South Korea. If they can do it, why can't we?

BINGO!

How long did it take 12 million Latinos to cross the border?

So, now immigration is getting serious?

Something fishy going on here. Could it be elections coming up?

Economics aside, I get a feeling that some people here REALLY don't like Mexicans. What are they doing on this forum anyway? Wait. Wait. Don't tell me.

:cool:

fishbuck - 5-26-2007 at 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Again with the race card? Is that all you've got.
I didn't know illegal immigrant was a race. Apparently in your mind it is. So since we don't approve of illegal immigration that automatically means we "Really don't like mexicans"
by your logic.
So by that same logic if you support illegal immigration you don't like Americans.

Looks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. Must be a...

Lee - 5-26-2007 at 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
Again with the race card? Is that all you've got.
I didn't know illegal immigrant was a race. Apparently in your mind it is. So since we don't approve of illegal immigration that automatically means we "Really don't like mexicans"
by your logic.
So by that same logic if you support illegal immigration you don't like Americans.

I'd break the law if I was desperate. If I was starving and homeless, I might rob a bank too. Guess you've never been desperate.

A little charity goes a long way. Talk to a legal Mexican if you know one.

:cool:

Packoderm - 5-26-2007 at 09:12 PM

Illegal immigration became an especially important issue to me at just about the time I had to abandon my construction trade because I cannot compete with workers who can work more cheaply because their families are partially supported by our public support system. I cannot claim 7 or more dependents and then forget about it come tax time. I am not truly bilingual. I feel that I was squeezed out of my livelihood, but nobody is waving any flags for me in any march or protest. It would be wrong (racist) to do so.

Lee - 5-26-2007 at 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
Illegal immigration became an especially important issue to me at just about the time I had to abandon my construction trade because I cannot compete with workers who can work more cheaply because their families are partially supported by our public support system. I cannot claim 7 or more dependents and then forget about it come tax time. I am not truly bilingual. I feel that I was squeezed out of my livelihood, but nobody is waving any flags for me in any march or protest. It would be wrong (racist) to do so.

It's not right or just what you've had to go through and sorry you've suffered because of his group. Unfortunately, discrimination against other classes is the fallout. If I could wave a flag or protest in your favor, I'd do that. White people feel discrimination too. I''ll buy you a beer sometime.

Packoderm - 5-26-2007 at 10:28 PM

Thank you Lee. I think it all worked out for the best. I am on the tail end of what has been a long college career toward becoming a school teacher.

Bajafun777 - 5-26-2007 at 10:44 PM

Ok let's stop the nonesense. Race and discrimination have nothing to do with this illegal immigration issue, repeat illegal immigration in violation of our U.S.C. Section of the Federal Law, so illegal immigration is violating our Country's law. Nobody is saying all of one nationally should all be removed from the United States just those of any Country, repeat any Country, that breaks our Federal laws and enters our Country illegally and only those that are here illegally should be deported. No one is saying to treat anyone inhumanely or they do not like Mexicans, so again stop the B.S. This is what is causing the problem here in the U.S. is that people think yelling someone is discriminating it will make them stop standing up for what is right. Again I follow Mexico's laws and if their Nationals come to the U.S. they need to follow our Country's law. With statements that someone who is desperate has a right to violate a law is just wrong. So are we going to say if someone is desperate for sex they can rape, or if they are desperate for money they can rob and harm your family, and let's not forget that if an illegal brings in a load of drugs well they were desperate and needed the money. All of that is nonesense and has no place on this issue. We have, as Mexico has, a right to protect their borders and I am not going to say they hate whites, black or chinese. Enough said so pop a beer or go for a walk and let's stop stressing everybody on nonesense.

Go back and read this thread carefully....

Lee - 5-26-2007 at 11:20 PM

Fish started this by throwing his support for Grassfire -- to me an extremist organization, pure and simple.

From Grassfire: "Leaders in Washington are getting ready to pass an amnesty bill. Senate Leader Harry Reid is pushing to bring the amnesty bill to the floor of the Senate immediately. Meanwhile, the Kennedy-McCain-Bush negotiations are finalizing details of their amnesty bill. All agree on passing an amnesty bill as soon as possible.

Grassfire is leading the charge to stop these amnesty bills. If you want our borders secured and oppose amnesty, please sign this petition then alert your friends."

Now, since I've stated I have no answers but am in favor of ammesty -- along with Kennedy-McCain-Bush -- I'd say these men have answers I don't. BUSH IS IN FAVOR OF AMMESTY. I don't understand his thinking, but at least we agree on this subject.

No one is condoning the acts of desperate people or a US immigration program that hasn't been enforced for many years. Whatever the solutions to the laws in place, I think the laws are being reinterpreted by, at least, these 3 men.

You don't have to agree with them and obviously alot of people here don't.

If everyone here believes there are no racists on this forum, that's their priviledge too.

Grassfire reads like an angry and racist diatribe. The kind of group that supports armed US para-military civilians ''helping out.''

Like it or not, ammesty is going to happen in one form or another.

:cool:

JESSE - 5-27-2007 at 01:07 AM

There is a reason why the most powerful nation on earth, with a 10 trillion economy cannot seem to find a way to close its southern border. And its very simple to me, they need the labor. I don't think theres any reasonable person that truly thinks the US cannot close the border completely if it wanted to. The problem with this situation, is that america as a society does not want immigrants, but, america as a nation needs them. Now, i know many will say, "yes we support immigration, but we support legal immigration", but the problem is that legal immigration cannot deal with the demand of your domestic market.

Heres some facts:

50 million americans report some sort of disability

The US population age 65 and over is expected to double in size within the next 25 years.

By 2030, almost 1 out of 5 Americans, some 72 million people, will be 65 years or older.

The age group 85 and older is now the fastest growing segment of the U.S. population.

In just 10 years, spending on the elderly will total nearly $1.8 trillion, almost half the federal budget.

The older population (persons 65 years or older) numbered 36.8 million in 2005 and represented 12.4% of the U.S. population, about one in every eight Americans.

The U.S. birth rate has dropped to the lowest level since national data have been available.

The awnser is very clear to me, you have an older population, a declining birth rate, explosive growth in nations who are already challenging american domination and power over the globe, and thus, a need for lots and lots of immigrants in order to keep up. Now, where are those millions going to come from? would you like 20 million Chinese? Indians? how about some Pakistanis? or Nigerians? you wont find many europeans willing to come here in the large numbers you need so forget that.

Stoping immigration is simply not an alternative, not unless you find a way to dramatically increase the birth rates of white americans, and thats not going to happen.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-27-2007 at 06:09 AM

Jesse: That is the best and most Accruate Report of this Thread!

Pacoderm: If you are having trouble getting a Job, or know anyone who needs a Job. Send them to the Texas Panhandle, we have need of all kinds of Workers for all kinds of Jobs.

Just for Fun do a "Last name Survey of the Fresno County, Calif. City, County and State Employees . Most of these People came into this Area, worked in the Fields, their Children going on to College and melting into the Culture. Many under the Amstrey Program of the Past.

There is not near enough workers to fill the Jobs of the Legals or Illegals!!

Who will Fill the Jobs??

Skeet/Loreto

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 06:18 AM

Everybody here keeps saying the same things, over and over but, nobody listens to anybody but themselves. This forum isn't a place for discussion. It's a place to hear ourselves talk. Amusing, really. The United States actually does have a work force. Too bad they're spread out around the world in uniform.

Bajafun777 - 5-27-2007 at 07:46 AM

Dennis, you have a very valid point about our military men and women. I just had our agency hire one that just got back, we have a number of military men and women returning to the workforce and we do owe them a job!! Lee, do I believe Amnesty is going to happen, you bet in some form or another. Will I support this you bet if our Congress and our President put the law into effect. When this happens everyone should support it as it will be our law. I have helped several Mexican Nationals get their American citizenship but we did it by the right way. Now I am conservative but I am not a Republican, not that their is anything wrong with Republicans we just agree to disagree on a number of issues. I grew up working on the farm so I picked cotton, hand hoed lettuce and cotton, picked cantalopes, worked preparing the fields for harvest, and worked in melons sheds to get myself through college. The work was hard but it was the work that was available and I did it. We just give too many people choices of not working in the United States like it is their right to stay home and not work. We have the workforce but unfortunately a large number are at home sitting on their rear ends letting us take the burden with our taxes paying their way. I think a work program that allows people from another Country to come in work and be able to go back and forth to their Country without fear of doing something illegal is going in the right direction (as long as they do not take jobs needed by our own citizens). However, I still feel if they wave the hand over those here illegally and give them citizenship it is wrong, however if they do then all of the ones with their paperwork in now should also automatically become citizens. I suspect fairness should be in our system somewhere still, right?

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 08:06 AM

Fairness should be in our system, for sure and, it would be wrong to say that our tacit approval of everything that has transpired to this point, hasn't been fair. Maybe "fair" isn't the word I'm looking for. Maybe "irresponsible" describes it better.
What has turned me off to the issue of amnesty in any form is my reaction to the DEMANDS for amnesty. Like, they're entitled to it. Our fairness, our irresponsibility to our own integrety, has given us what we have today.

A scenario which would quiet the demands for citizenship would be to bring back the draft, for ALL citizens. Then perhaps, the responsibilities which come with citizenship would be fully understood and the demands would turn to a whimper.

On the other hand, I can wish for a cessation of hostilities and minimize the military. Bring home all of our troops and turn them loose on the streets to find employment. But, they better be able to speak Spanish and work for peanuts or they won't be hired.

What a freakin mess.

Packoderm - 5-27-2007 at 08:20 AM

Pompano, you are certainly correct. That's probably the biggest reason why so many Americans have gone belly up on so many issues that affect them. The Americans most affected by illegal immigration seem to be the ones least mentioned in the debate. I guess you're right - screw it. It's getting hard to care any more.

Skeet, thank you; but I got lucky and got a summer job that is there for me every year. However, it is no longer really viable for a man to come up through the ranks and support a family in the construction industry except for the few who are able to become superintendents or business owners. Anybody who is ok with this really has no right to complain that the American man is no longer manly and has no right to complain about the increasingly confused American family dynamic. In short, we're all becoming a bunch of white collar wimps. That's ok, but we're going to need to accept ourselves for what we become.

And Jesse, just think how the new American population will think about all these non-productive old White people sitting about. These old people have better have gotten their games straight because support will not be there if needed. It will be like, "Why should my taxes go to take care of all these old White people?" Perhaps it would be better to not so much complain about providing services to the less prosperous today but instead make sure that it is documented and widely understood that we are doing so. Some of us just might end up needing the return of the favor if say our medical insurers screw us over, and we lose everything in medical bills.

Wait a minute; I think I'm responding to Jesse's comment. Doesn't that make this part of a discussion rather than one of a series of monologues? In reality, it has become fashionable for many to eschew politics in order to better handle how powerless they feel.

Affirmation

MrBillM - 5-27-2007 at 09:23 AM

Surprisingly, this a.m. Senator Arlen Spector (R-PA) speaking on Fox News Sunday confirmed the Real purpose of the current legislation when he said (as I had noted previously), "It is important that we get this legislation out of the way prior to the 2008 election cycle".

It is noteworthy that OUR (?) representatives are so eager to rush through poorly-constructed legislation that will cause a crushing economic and social affect on our country in the future simply to improve their chances of remaining in office.

It is also worth noting, as a commentator said on a later news show, that "we only Think we know what is in this bill. It is turning out to be an amazingly complicated bill. Every day we are finding out more that we didn't know was in there". That's the reason the Swim King wanted to speed it through.

Fortunately, there are those on the Left who are just as dissatisfied with this legislation as there are those on the Right. Hopefully, those numbers will remain strong enough to clean this mess up. Nothing is sure, however, because the leadership and the President have a lot of Pork in the Barrel to distribute in exchange for votes.

Al G - 5-27-2007 at 09:49 AM

PORK???
Yes...60 billion taken from a group that can not afford it...no better then the criminals that charged them $5000 to get them across the border...the reason I am against Amnesty.
Do not paint me in Lee's box, because this is not about racism...such a sad reason to be on any side of an issue.

Jesse, can not validate your numbers, but your are right.

MrBillM...you are right...cannot wait to see all the crap in this bill.

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Al G]

JESSE - 5-27-2007 at 11:52 AM

The Question here is, would American voters accept the fact that the US needs millions and millions of immigrants? and would they vote for candidates who support this reality or candidates who will for sure, use it as a political weapon to reach their personal goals?

My guess is that Washington understands they need the labor, but they also know the american voter places more attention to emotion than to facts (like everywhere), so they know that this would never work in a legal, organized way. So what do you? you simply open the gates and look the other way, thats exactly whats happening.

By the way, i think its wrong for immigration activists to be demanding anything, i wouldnt want a few million Guatemalans demanding anything here, so i understand how many feel.

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by JESSE]

Mexitron - 5-27-2007 at 12:05 PM

Jesse--you've got it right there.

One more idea in the background though, which could explain why Bush et al is basically supporting immigration is the possible formation of a North American trade alliance(Mex, US, Canada), similar to the ETO, in order to compete better with the ETO and others. This is hush hush stuff, and as far as I know can only be qualified as rumor as yet. But if true, explains why the lenient policy towards Mexico; that is, our interdependency and population osmosis will only grow in the future. One project in the planning stages--the central US truck corrider going from Mex to Canada--would seem to support that idea.

oldhippie - 5-27-2007 at 12:16 PM

I have liberal feeling about this topic, but screw what my feelings are. Here's a fact.

If the US is to achieve more legal immigration it must simplify and make logical the process. I helped my wife get her permanent US residency and it was a long complicated process that I could not have done without the help of a rather expensive lawyer who completed the myriad of forms flawlessly and provided expert advise. In fact at the final interview the American offical was going to deny her residency because he thought she had been previously entered the US illegally. Good thing my lawyer was present because he informed the immigration turkey that he was wrong and in fact her entries on her K-3 visa were entirely legal. At the end of the interview the offical admitted his mistake and congratulated me for having a very informed lawyer.

I think a big reason there are so many illegal immigrants is because the legal process is too complicated and expensive for the average blue collar Mexican worker. The process needs to be fixed, it obviously doesn't work.

Cypress - 5-27-2007 at 12:21 PM

My warped mind is in a state of confusion.

There are hordes of fully capable, natural born US citizens, that turn their collective nostrils up at anything that resembles "Work". They manage to eat well, put gas in their cars, and have a roof over their heads. :lol:

Is there something wrong with this picture? Wish we could swap all these lazy parasites on a 1 to 1 basis for anybody from anywhere that is willing to earn their bread and butter. :spingrin:

bajalou - 5-27-2007 at 12:25 PM

2 for 1 would be a better trade.

oldhippie - 5-27-2007 at 12:26 PM

A second thought about the immigration process. Not only is it too complicated for the average Mexican blue collar worker, in addition, as the immigration official demonstrated, it is too complicated for the average US immigration offical to comprehend.

I imagine most of you don't have any first hand experience with the US immigration process. I do. Believe me, it is next to impossible to do right. The best way to get people to follow the rules is to make the rules easy to follow.

Paula - 5-27-2007 at 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
The Question here is, would American voters accept the fact that the US needs millions and millions of immigrants? and would they vote for candidates who support this reality or candidates who will for sure, use it as a political weapon to reach their personal goals?

My guess is that Washington understands they need the labor, but they also know the american voter places more attention to emotion than to facts (like everywhere), so they know that this would never work in a legal, organized way. So what do you? you simply open the gates and look the other way, thats exactly whats happening.

By the way, i think its wrong for immigration activists to be demanding anything, i wouldnt want a few million Guatemalans demanding anything here, so i understand how many feel.

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by JESSE]

I think you see this sad situation very clearly Jesse.
Simply opening the gates and looking the other way might be a good solution, except that fearful emotion gets in the way. Our government makes a token attempt to appear to be halting the flow. People from the south who are trying to provide for their families are forced into dangerous situations trying to cross, and good people lose their lives. Vigilante groups spring up on the border, adding to the danger and the polarizing rhetoric.Those who have made it across and work and live here feel entitled to make demands. After all, they have integrated into society, and are a part of this country, and they have risked much to get where they are. At the same time, many American workers are feeling squeezed out, and have every right and reason to be concerned.

It's a sensitive, personal issue, and the solutions-- if they can be found will only come about through respectful dialogue. We have to have trust, good will, and a sincere concern for a good outcome for all sides. I see open borders as a good start. It's a smaller world than it once was, and we have to learn to share it. And our leaders in congress and the white house need to be more concerned about a good outcome than their own political careers.

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula]

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 12:36 PM

Oh yeah .... Good idea. When they're done, they can tear down the fences around Disneyland, in the effort toward a better world.
If our worlds were the same, or at least similiar, no borders would work. Today, they serve a purpose.

Paula - 5-27-2007 at 12:38 PM

post erased, hope it doesn't cause any confusion

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula]

Al G - 5-27-2007 at 01:03 PM

The Question here is, would American voters accept the fact that the US needs millions and millions of immigrants?

Jesse....If you can see past the ones screaming racism and the ones screaming illegal immigrants, the vast majority of the voting public, I believe see it that way.
Bush will go down as the worst and least popular president.
I am very upset with him for dangling a pork banana ($5000 fine by 12 million is 60 billion) in front of the Democrats, knowing they will never pass a opportunity to tax and spend on pork to get re-elected in their district. Our two countries need each other.

Al G - 5-27-2007 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Pompano, you sure called it right. There is no discussion here, just people making their own noise, myself included. Would have liked to quote your very wise post, but you pulled ito :lol:

Shoulda kept my mouth shut: :rolleyes:

:

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula]

I know you mean well, but there will never be a open border...we live in a terrorist world and if you think the US sucks at controlling their borders, Mexico has no control...It would become the one place all terrorist would want to hang-out. I am sure you would not want that.

I just realized I repeated myself in my last post :lol:

Paula - 5-27-2007 at 01:41 PM

Al G,

It is true, there are terrorists in the world. I'm afraid that if someone wants to perform another act of terrorism against or within the US, they will not be dependent on crossing the US- mexico or the US- Canada border to do it. And there is so much to be lost in this defensive posture. So we need a better way to deal with border issues, and a better way to deal with terrorism issues. I have beliefs on these issues, and I know they aren't popular here-- AND THAT'S OK (insert visual of Stuart Smiley here). So I think I'll just keep 'em to myself :yes:

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 01:51 PM

Stuart Smalley----- Al Franken?

Whoa....... What are they doin' here in this bastion of fascism?

Cypress - 5-27-2007 at 02:10 PM

What are we paying all these border patrol, immigration folks, and assorted nitwits for anyway? :?:

Might as well send 'em home. :bounce:

Think they'd pick strawberries? :?:

toneart - 5-27-2007 at 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula

It's a sensitive, personal issue, and the solutions-- if they can be found will only come about through respectful dialogue. We have to have trust, good will, and a sincere concern for a good outcome for all sides. I see open borders as a good start. It's a smaller world than it once was, and we have to learn to share it. And our leaders in congress and the white house need to be more concerned about a good outcome than their own political careers.

[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula]

Hang in there Paula. I share your thoughtful views. When I debuted on this forum I expressed similar views on open borders and was not well received. True, I am a liberal but my position should have been embraced by conservatives: "....allow market conditions dictate how many alien workers stay in the United States and work." I am talking about menial labor jobs that go begging to be filled. When a glut of these workers satisfy the open jobs, then the overflow will go back. They couldn't afford to stay. This would remove the "illegal" stigma. These alien workers should not fall prey to employer exploitation. They should not be allowed to displace U.S. workers in industries such as construction, because there are U.S. workers who still want many of those jobs.

I don't see why we have to extend free medical care or benefits to them other than responding to emergencies. If anyone becomes a drain on us economically, cut them off. Send them back to the countries in which they are citizens.

I would like to see them registered and monitored as in some form of guest worker program. Unfortunately, the politicians are the ones who make the rules and not much gets done when they are posturing in their bids for reelection.

Packoderm - 5-27-2007 at 03:07 PM

Open border? Would it be open with only Mexico? Or would Guatemalans, Chinese, North Koreans, Iraqis, and everybody else be welcome as well? And would that be an unlimited amount of immigrants from each country as well?

Wiles - 5-27-2007 at 03:34 PM

Just wondering…..

What was the view on this issue say 35 years ago in 1972? How many of you lived near our southern border and witnessed the flow of migrant workers illegally crossing the border? What were the effects on society back then? What was the common opinion? What attempts were made to stop the flow of illegal immigration and why weren’t they successful? Is there something to be learned from the past?

Paula - 5-27-2007 at 03:54 PM

Can of worms, isn't it, Packoderm? Maybe our own hemisphere would be a good place to start-- Canada, Mexico-- well, then there is Central America, which leads to South America.... boy, I just don't really know. I do know that it is much harder to enter without a visa if you have to come in through an airport or by boat, so entry without permission is much more difficult from other continents. Maybe open borders means something more, and less, than unrestricted movement from one country to another. Perhaps more governmental cooperation between the US and Mexico in actually solving the economic difficulties of all people would be a starting point. And perhaps if the good citizens of both countries could lose their streotypes of what the other is like, and get over their I'm just in it for me attitudes, we could all look toward solutions instead of arbitrary barriers. We lose when the only way to keep the good things we have is with guns and threats against other peoples. If we have to live in fear of losing our stuff, maybe we have more than our fair share.

I know I'm gonna catch hell for this one...

elizabeth - 5-27-2007 at 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Maybe open borders means something more, and less, than unrestricted movement from one country to another....
...we could all look toward solutions instead of arbitrary barriers. We lose when the only way to keep the good things we have is with guns and threats against other peoples. If we have to live in fear of losing our stuff, maybe we have more than our fair share.

I know I'm gonna catch hell for this one...

Probably...but definitely not from me...this is a subject that deserves a much more thoughtful and compassionate dialogue than it gets.

amir - 5-27-2007 at 04:03 PM

People have been crossing borders illegally forever. The grass is always greener on the other side. The Great Wall of China was an early attempt to stem the flow. The current problem now is being politicized, of course, and like Grover said above, and I said a few pages back in this thread, the bottom line is "who benefits?" If nothing was done 35 years ago it is because it was profitable to let it happen then. The consequences were then, and are now, inevitable, and it's always the little guy, the taxpayer, who foots the bill. Pretecting the little guy has seldom been a priority for big government. The rich look after themselves and everybody else pays the price.

--Amir

Packoderm - 5-27-2007 at 04:18 PM

Yet more questions:

How are we to help Mexico, a fairly rich country overall, change when our own ruling class wants the U.S. to become more like Mexico?

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/mexicoisrich.html
The above link is from what looks to be a racist organization, but the articles are interesting nevertheless.

[Edited on 07/17/2004 by Packoderm]

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 04:29 PM

"Who benefits?" Where does it say that's the bottom line?
If everybody benefited, there would be no issue. It wouldn't even be discussed.
These issues and discussions began with the question, "Who loses."

The costs of ILLEGAL immigration thirty five years ago hadn't taken the immense proportions which they have today. They hadn't as yet undercut union wages and all but eliminated the protections that collective bargaining fought to put in place.
They hadn't, at that time, overloaded public services and escalated our taxes because doctors don't work for nothing in spite of the fact that many don't pay for medical attention.
So, who benefits under todays scenario? Everybody but the taxpayer.
It's bad enough when we have to be aware of our own welfare deadbeats, those who suck all of the altruism out of the system.
It becomes worse when we have to care for so many others who have been ignored by their own government and sent off to fend for themselves in the land of remittances.

Immigration, as well as our border, has to be respected and controlled.

JESSE - 5-27-2007 at 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
"Who benefits?" Where does it say that's the bottom line?
If everybody benefited, there would be no issue. It wouldn't even be discussed.
These issues and discussions began with the question, "Who loses."

The costs of ILLEGAL immigration thirty five years ago hadn't taken the immense proportions which they have today. They hadn't as yet undercut union wages and all but eliminated the protections that collective bargaining fought to put in place.
They hadn't, at that time, overloaded public services and escalated our taxes because doctors don't work for nothing in spite of the fact that many don't pay for medical attention.
So, who benefits under todays scenario? Everybody but the taxpayer.
It's bad enough when we have to be aware of our own welfare deadbeats, those who suck all of the altruism out of the system.
It becomes worse when we have to care for so many others who have been ignored by their own government and sent off to fend for themselves in the land of remittances.

Immigration, as well as our border, has to be respected and controlled.

I don't agree with that, if immigration was as bad for your economy as you think, your goverment would have closed the borders a long long time ago. If it can fly several hundred thousands soldiers complete with all their equipment across the globe and keep them there for years at a cost of hundreds of billions, i am absolutely sure it can close the border when ever it wishes.

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 04:52 PM

Jesse ----

I agree. Our government could maintain the border, but wont. The government doesn't care about the cost of services. It doesn't cost the government anything. They just raise taxes. Taxpayers pay for it.

So, what are you saying? That the overpopulation of immigrants isn't a burden on the taxpayer?

Paula - 5-27-2007 at 04:55 PM

Social services is a pretty small percentage of the US budget. It sounds like a huge expense providing education and medical care to the poor, but percentage wise it's not what is burning the hole in your pocket. The cost of war and defense is the biggie.

Jessie, I'm curious what you think of the article that Packoderm posted. I know that many Mexicans suffer economic distress, and I know that the government is corrupt (as is ours), and I know how wealthy Carlos Slim is, but I didn't know that the economy is so large?

DENNIS - 5-27-2007 at 05:09 PM

Packoderm ----

That's a good link. A little outdated but, good. I like the part about Rumsfeld identifying failed states. Those states are still here but, where's Rummy?

rts551 - 5-27-2007 at 06:50 PM

OK lets just apply the rules both ways..... (and as many have said "the law is the law"). No more crossing south until you have some paperwork.. And if you are not here in Mexico legally... OH well.. and before you jump on me look at the past posts on "declare or no declare", or "do I have to get paperwork for my house in Punta ______", or "How do I get around the immigration checkpoint.... " Ahhhh enough said... sometimes we are the most ________ people (fill in the blank). Hey maybe I can trade with someone... I would like to immigrate

JESSE - 5-27-2007 at 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Jesse ----

I agree. Our government could maintain the border, but wont. The government doesn't care about the cost of services. It doesn't cost the government anything. They just raise taxes. Taxpayers pay for it.

So, what are you saying? That the overpopulation of immigrants isn't a burden on the taxpayer?

I think they know exactly the cost's and benefits of immigration, the fact they don't do anything about it, means to me that it provides more than it takes. If immigration was truly a burden, the problem would have been fixed easily many years ago.

Theres no other logical explanation, unless, the US goverment has politicians as stupid as the ones we have here in Mexico, and we all know thats not true.

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