BajaNomad - Baja Indians: Sharing & Caring

Baja Indians: Sharing & Caring

bajalera - 5-31-2007 at 05:27 PM

The Indians who lived in what is now Baja California during earlier centuries were described by explorers, pearl fishermen, priests and pirates--all of whom noted that these natives had not progressed very far up civilization's ladder.

One of the best-known accounts is that of Jesuit John Jakob Baegert, who spent some seventeen years as a peninsula missionary. This book, which has been translated from his native German into both English and Spanish, is available at many libraries and sometimes at bookstores.

Baegert says that among the peninsula's Indians it was Every-Man-for-Himself--and likewise for the women and children: "As far as food for their support is concerned, the husband does not provide for his wife, nor the wife for her husband, nor either for their children beyond infancy. Both parents eat whatever they have or find, each one for himself, without being concerned about the other or about their offspring."

And later, " Each native did as he pleased, asking nobody, caring for nobody."

George Shelvocke, an English sea captain who dropped anchor off Cabo San Lucas in 1721, didn't view the natives as being all that selfish. He said, "when any of us gave any thing that was eatable to any one of them in particular, he always divided it into as many shares as theere were persons about him, and commonly reserv'd the least for himself . . ."

Another English seaman, Capt. Woodes Rogers, also described sharing: " . . . they seem to have all things in common, for when they exchang'd Fish with us for old Knives--of which we had plenty--they gave the Knives to any [Indian] that stood next, and after they had enough we could get no Fish from them. . . .We gave one of the Natives a Shirt, but he soon tore it in pieces and gave it to the rest of his Company to put the Seeds in, which they use for Bread."

Evidence that the peninsula's natives did care for one another's welfare has been reported, but is sometimes so subtle that it is overlooked. Baegert himself says that some natives were in their eighties, and he once met a seventy-year-old blind man. Elderly blind people were also seen by Francisco de Ulloa on the Pacific Coast in 1539.

Relatives and/or friends had not only provided disabled people with food and other needs, but had also taken them from placd to place on a rancheria's frequent moves to new campsites. Guiding or carrying blind people over steep rock-strewn trails, through thickets of thorny plants, would have required significant effort.

Jesuit Wenceslaus Linck's report that he met a man of seventy who had been blind since birth is particularly significant. Infanticide is mentioned by several Jesuit missionaries, and in recent times this has sometimes been taken to mean that the peninsula's Indians casually killed their young children.

Miguel del Barco, who spent nearly thirty years as a peninsular missionary, says that after the Jesuits learned that infants were killed when no food was available, they began issuing double rations to recently delivered mothers.

When an expected source of food failed, mothers were unable to produce milk because they were starving. A camp might have several infants wailing nonstop, and the chances of their mothers being able to "bond" with them would be zilch.

Ending the misery of the little ones, instead of letting them starve slowly and inevitably, could be considered a humanitarian act--at least by other members of the rancheria, who for lack of food were probably pretty grouchy themselves.

Sick people, Baegert reports, were mostly ignored.

Or maybe not. The padre occasionally displays his suble mastery of the Mixed Message. On page 65 he says, " . . . the healthy ones care little for the sick and hardly trouble themselves about them (even if these should happen to be husbands, wives, or other close relations) . . ."

Earlier, however, Baegert revealed--in a negative sort of way--that sick people were sometimes given special care: "If the Indians make a shelter for a sick person as a protection against heat or cold, the entrance to this shelter is, as a rule, so low that it is necessary to crawl into it on hands and knees."

Here the padre describes a typical Baja Indian shelter made of brush--the kind he sometimes had to enter to administer Sacraments to the sick. Squeezing himself into a dinky little hut was apparently unplesant for this missionary, who was described in an official Spanish document as "corpulent."

Baegert also puts a reverse spin on another act that could be viewed as a good deed: "To transport a sick person from one place to another, they bind him to a ladder made of crooked pieces of wood, and two carriers bear this stretcher on their heads. This is truly a bed of torture for any person who lacks Indian bones."

Indian bones were probably uncomfortable as well. But those primitive gurneys brought sick people to a rancheria's next campsite, where they could be cared for. They were not left behind to die a lonely death, or buried while still living.

Capt. Shelvocke, like other Europeans who came to Baja California in early days, noticed that native technology was still in the stone age. But he also thought that a visitor's first impression of the natives was not necessaryily a valid one:

"From what I have been relating of their personal appearance, my Reader may reasonably conclude that nothing can be more savage. But there is a wide difference between what one would, upon first sight, expect to find from them, and what they really are.

"For by all that I could discern in their behaviour towards one another, and their deportment towards us, they are endued with all the humanity imaginable.

**************

David K - 5-31-2007 at 05:35 PM

This is wonderful reading Lera!!! Muchas gracias...

amir - 6-1-2007 at 02:12 AM

Early Baja Nomads were probably just like us today - a mixture of good and bad. Truth is in the eye of the beholder, or the reporter. Some early reports were probably biased. Some historians are even biased today. Most humans are human; a few are inhumane. I don't believe that modern society is more humane than ancient ones, and primitive societies had to share and care, or they would not have survived.

A problem with the early reports about the native Indians of Baja is that they generalized and stereotyped. That causes the same misconceptions today. When I went to France I saw a one-legged man at the airport. Then I saw a one-legged man in the subway. Then I saw a one-leggen man under the Eiffel Tower. My conclusion? French men make lousy soccer players.

--Amir

Osprey - 6-1-2007 at 05:39 AM

One early priest painted the Pericue as filthy savages. Later he moderated his view of them:

"they eat without greed, live without shame, die without fear" -- that little dicho was burned in the pit post of my ramada til hurricane Juan took it away with him.

One priest who stepped off the boat in Cabo San Lucas described the indians greeting the boat as having the features of the Flemish. I don't think so.

Warm and Caring

MrBillM - 6-1-2007 at 10:09 AM

Reading this enlightening and uplifting essay has given me a new appreciation for the Soul-Enriching essence of Simple communal living. The Land I survey now seems richer, the Sea more brilliant and alive and the Sky filled with dazzling wonder.

Thanks to this wondrous psalm to the aboriginal ways, I have reached an epiphany of self-realization and now realize the error of my endlessly obsessive enslavement to the Western Capitalist Regime.

As I sit here today engulfed in the constant accounting (and rendering onto Caesar) necessary to maintain this frivolous and burdensome lifestyle while dividing my time among three computers simultaneously badgered by a variety of tasks at the same time I am fielding telephone problems while watching incessant News coverage on Satellite TV, I realize how much happier I could be squatting under a makeshift shade, wearing rag-tag clothing (or none at all) and munching on a piece of fish ( or filleted Padre ?) skewered on a stick and cooked over an open fire. The added attraction that I could look forward to the very same thing day after day for the extent of my existence makes the thought even more endearing.

And, Then Again ......................................

[Edited on 6-1-2007 by MrBillM]

toneart - 6-1-2007 at 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Reading this enlightening and uplifting essay has given me a new appreciation for the Soul-Enriching essence of Simple communal living. The Land I survey now seems richer, the Sea more brilliant and alive and the Sky filled with dazzling wonder.

Thanks to this wondrous psalm to the aboriginal ways, I have reached an epiphany of self-realization and now realize the error of my endlessly obsessive enslavement to the Western Capitalist Regime.

As I sit here today engulfed in the constant accounting (and rendering onto Caesar) necessary to maintain this frivolous and burdensome lifestyle while dividing my time among three computers simultaneously badgered by a variety of tasks at the same time I am fielding telephone problems while watching incessent News coverage on Satellite TV, I realize how much happier I could be squatting under a makeshift shade, wearing rag-tag clothing (or none at all) and munching on a piece of fish ( or filleted Padre ?) skewered on a stick and cooked over an open fire. The added attraction that I could look forward to the very same thing day after day for the extent of my existence makes the thought even more endearing.

And, Then Again ......................................

....and after being so inspired by the new warm and caring Mr.Bill's epiphany, I have decided to reveal to you all that I have gone native. My avatar is actually a real photo of me Naked! (You just can't see me. :wow:

Wingnut - 6-1-2007 at 01:59 PM

Toneart,

Many thanks for the warning!

Native Cultures

CaboRon - 6-3-2007 at 07:06 AM

What a wonderful story. It really shows that the vanquished have little say in the way they are presented in history. This is another exemple of the incredable hubris of the (submit Name) of organized religion. Remember these are the persons who administered the Inquisition. Let us never forget...........................Ron

Iflyfish - 6-4-2007 at 02:10 AM

To those who have not read it I would recommend the book Aztec. It is a fictionalized account of Pre Columbian Mexico. Also the tales of Cabeza de Vacca, who was shipwrecked in the new world pre Cortez. Bernal's Conquest of Mexico also makes a good read, as he was a Sargent in Cortez's army.

I appreciate this post and would love to read more on this subject.

Thanks,

Iflyfish

Iflyfish

Baja Bernie - 6-4-2007 at 07:52 AM

AZTEC by Gary Jennings

Quote from the forward of the book........" You tell me then I must perish like the flowers that I cherish. Nothing remaing of my name, nothing remembered of my fame? But the gardens I planted still are young--the songs I sang will still be sung!"

HUEXOTZIN
Prince of Texcoco

CA. 1484

Heck of a book.

Oh! I might add that the lady who started this post is a well recognized authority on the Baja Indians.
I agree that all historians are biased, perhaps that is why I like to write about history, anyway......Now I believe I know why she has basically stopped posting her stuff here.

I guess that some folks are just authorities on 'everything.'

longlegsinlapaz - 6-4-2007 at 08:35 AM

Lee, very interesting! Thanks for posting this!

Bernie - which Aztec?

John M - 6-6-2007 at 08:20 AM

Bernie - I did a search on one of the titles you suggested.

I found three titles by Jennings listed: Aztec, Aztec Autumn, and Aztec Blood - Are these all the same with different sub-titles or...???

John M

amir - 6-6-2007 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

......Now I believe I know why she has basically stopped posting her stuff here.

Too bad she's not posting more. I for one would like to know more. Could you please forward me some links to some of her other articles. Thanks.

[edited to include quote]

[Edited on 6-6-2007 by amir]

bajalera - 6-7-2007 at 12:07 PM

Bernie, the reason I don't enter long posts very often is not that criticism offends me, it's that I'm too busy. [If I had a thin skin, the teen-age bully-boys would have driven me away from Off-Topics long ago.]

The sarcastic political spin that BM imposed on the accounts of Europeans who actually saw peninsula Indians indicates that he either never enrolled in Anthropology 101, or took this course and flunked out.

For the vast majority of time that humans have existed on earth, they have been hunters-and-gatherers who had to share with, and care for, each other to survive. Surpluses that allowed for sedentary communities and the amassing of wealth were not possible until the advent of agriculture.

If the people referred to collectively as Early Man had followed the policies promoted by BM and his ultracon ilk--"Ive-got-mine, and screw you"--homo sapiens would not be around to put posts on the Nomad Board today.

Cypress - 6-7-2007 at 01:02 PM

They were all related; brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins. :yes:

One big family. :tumble:

How is it that with more and more people in this world, the family gets smaller?

Make up One of your Minds

MrBillM - 6-7-2007 at 01:05 PM

OK, either I just don't understand the Wholesome, Loving, Caring and uncluttered life of the Aborigines because of my woeful lack of "State" education OR I'm an uncaring, sarcastic, uncouth (probably unclean) Ultra-Conservative who just DOESN'T CARE and is, therefore, unworthy of equal status among the Marxist Elitist Thinkers.

Make up your mind.

I'll give you a hint.

Although I found Anthropology interesting, I didn't come away with a fond, reverential feeling for those early savages. On the contrary, studying the early history of mankind, I came away with a deep appreciation of the intellectual and Technical successes of some races and groups as opposed to others. The early Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Chinese among others, created great civilizations during the same time period that others (notably on the American continent) remained suspended in a primitive slow-changing animistic state of life. You are Absolutely correct if you think that I have a cynical un-appreciation of the accomplishments of those savages.

I've never FLUNKED a course in my life. However, it might not come as a surprise to you that, back in the days (even through High School) when they would assign those E - S - U values for "Citizenship" and "Work Habits", there was more than one instance when I received an A-U-U. I always argued that my "Work Habits" couldn't be bad if I Aced the class, but it never did me any good. At least in College and Military/Corporate Technical Courses, they didn't bother with that nonsensical BS. I could be my normal cynical, iconoclastic, sarcastic self as long as my test scores held up.

We agree on one point, however. The Liberal Elitists such as yourself always tend to dismiss those on the opposite side as lacking in knowledge or education. I feel the same way about Liberals. I just don't understand how anyone could be that dumb.

Enjoy your reverence for those simple savages. I'll reserve mine for those who were achievers.

Eli - 6-7-2007 at 01:11 PM

Leara, Thank You, thank you, thank you.....I have been waiting to read this since we met and you mentioned that you were working on it. Now, of course, I want more, more, more...........

bajalera - 6-7-2007 at 05:59 PM

BM, imposing your Neanderthal social and economic convictions on a non-political subject--the behavior of peninsula indians during the 1700s--would be appropriate on Off-Topics, but doesn't fly on this forum.

Slither back! Slither back!
Slither back to where your whines belong.

CaboRon - 6-7-2007 at 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalera
BM, imposing your Neanderthal social and economic convictions on a non-political subject--the behavior of peninsula indians during the 1700s--would be appropriate on Off-Topics, but doesn't fly on this forum.

Slither back! Slither back!
Slither back to where your whines belong.

Thankyou for steping up here. I think we know who the savages are .......

DENNIS - 6-7-2007 at 06:38 PM

Hey there, CaboRon

Why don't you engage MrBill in a one-on-one discussion? You seem to know what's happening in our confused world.
Give'm a try.

I'm all in on Bill.

bajalera - 6-7-2007 at 06:42 PM

Yes, Cabo, please do. I need a time out.

CaboRon - 6-7-2007 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Hey there, CaboRon

Why don't you engage MrBill in a one-on-one discussion? You seem to know what's happening in our confused world.
Give'm a try.

I'm all in on Bill.

Since that was an emotional response on my part I had better back off. I feel I should probably observe quite a bit more before I do any more postings in this regard. CaboRon

Defending Aborigines

MrBillM - 6-7-2007 at 07:00 PM

Sorry that you don't care for my commentary, Lera, but I was simply offering an intellectual counterpoint to your slavish adoration of the "Simple Folks" and the "Simple Life" (No, not Paris Hilton). I hadn't realized that only effusive praise in support was acceptable.

I will be happy to engage your designated conductor, Cabo, in ANY Intellectual tete-a-tete he wishes, but I'm not surprised that Free-Thinking Liberals, such as you two, hasten to dispense of anyone who differs from their orthodoxy.

As far as the Anthropology goes, do you have a reference work on Neanderthals that you're thinking of ? Nothing that I've read indicates that they Slithered or Whined. I could be wrong. I wasn't there at the time. Lera might have been so I deign to her authority.

DENNIS - 6-7-2007 at 07:11 PM

Jeezo ----

I just got done laughing.
Seeing the wheat go one way............and the chaff , the other.

This is sort of why I gave up the off topic swamp

Baja Bernie - 6-7-2007 at 08:00 PM

All I will say is this is most interesting we have gone from:

"Sharing and Caring" to "Spearing and Sneering"

And what is accomplished of a positive nature. I know, as do most old time Nomads that both of these folks are very good--bad when it comes to attacking each other and occasionally a bystander such as me. Not interested in protecting either..........Remember Joe Friday and his line about 'just the facts?

amir.....sorry I researched her real name while I was doing some research for a book and found that she has and does run in circles far above my lowly head........I only kept the information in my head. And as a result it is lost forever or until it surfaces, unbidden, at some later date and time that makes it useless.

John M

Baja Bernie - 6-7-2007 at 09:14 PM

Just plain old Aztec......In looking myself I find that there are the titles that you mention and others in Europe.....but I believe that they are just new covers on the first book. He also wrote "The Journeyer' but I have not seen it and really don't even know what it is about. He writes a bit like Mitchner but with more excitement...I mean when he talks about the priests skinning a captive and then 'wearing' the 'entire' skin to services it is not exactly like following a solitary leaf down the river as Mitchner was wont to do.

Have you read "Forgotten Waters by Randolph Leigh about the Sea of Cortez in 1940............I just might end up posting excerpts in my 'Baja Looking Back' site here.

Gnome-ad - 6-8-2007 at 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

Although I found Anthropology interesting, I didn't come away with a fond, reverential feeling for those early savages. On the contrary, studying the early history of mankind, I came away with a deep appreciation of the intellectual and Technical successes of some races and groups as opposed to others. The early Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Chinese among others, created great civilizations during the same time period that others (notably on the American continent) remained suspended in a primitive slow-changing animistic state of life. You are Absolutely correct if you think that I have a cynical un-appreciation of the accomplishments of those savages.

This evening I spoke with my husband, Amir, and he told me I should really check out this thread; it was something that would interest me. He read to me briefly from it and I was hooked. I thank bajalera for contributing this thread to the tapestry of Baja Nomad forums. It is wonderful.

MrBillM states his beliefs about the people who populated the Americas before the arrival of Europeans with the typical stereotype we were taught as truth. I, too, believed the little I had been taught about pre-Columbus American indigenous populations. I held the view that their societies were not as “developed” as the European, Middle Eastern and Asian. I did not, however, hold them in disdain for this. I also held the belief that they somehow had some other secret that made them great. That may have been based on some sentimental attachment to the knowledge that arrowheads had been found on our property when I was a youngster and I saw myself as perhaps some sort of trespasser on a history I could never truly know about. Later I learned more reading “Tales of the Algonquin” for a book report. I visited the Serpent Mound, in my home state of Ohio. I wondered deeply about the people who had trod the same ground I was on at that very moment. Another mystery I thought could never be fathomed.

Then recently I read the book “Aztec” mentioned earlier. It was, indeed, educational as well as vastly entertaining and well written. Though there were parts that were exceedingly difficult to read and fathom culturally, it was presented in such a way that I could understand how these things were simply the way it was. It should be noted that when the Spanish arrived they were amazed by the concept of indoor plumbing which was common in the capital, not only in private homes, but public markets as well. The native people were very concerned with personal cleanliness unlike the arriving white people. I would add that those other titles on the Aztec books you may have seen are not just new covers for the same book. “Aztec” is the first in a series of books about post-Cortez Mexico.

For those who are interested in some more material about pre-Columbus Americas I can highly recommend the book “1491” by Charles C. Mann. Unlike “Aztec”, “1491” is not a novel, but it is written for the layperson and very readable and educational. Mr. Mann puts together the current conventional wisdom of archaeology and anthropology that blows apart the myths that young Americans have been taught as “truths” about native populations. MrBillM is sure that there were no cultures or societies on this continent when the Egyptians were at their peak, as I would have thought, too, only a couple of months ago. But, in fact there was quite complex culture in Peru.

I will quote one passage from the book regarding findings in Peru (yes, I know it’s not Baja):

Examination of Huaricanga and the surrounding communities is far from complete – Haas, Creamer, and Ruiz published their first findings in December 2004. They found evidence of people living inland from the coast as early as 9210 B.C. But the oldest date securely associated with a city is about 3500 B.C., at Huaricanga. (There are hints of earlier dates.) Other urban sites followed apace: Cabalette in 3100 B.C., Porvenir and Upaca in 2700 B.C. Taken individually, none of the twenty-five Chico Norte cities rivaled Sumer. Egypt’s pyramids were larger, but they were built centuries later. I asked Hass and Creamer where a race of alien visitors in, say, 3000 B.C. would have landed if they were searching for earth’s most sophisticated society. “I hate questions like that,” Hass said, “because they ask scientists to engage in the dubious enterprise of ranking cultures against each other on a scale.”

“Wouldn’t it depend on what the aliens thought was sophisticated?” Creamer asked. “I mean, who knows what they would think.”

I asked them to indulge me.

“I know what you’re getting at,” Hass said, reluctantly. “In 3000 B.C. your aliens would have a very limited number of options on the menu. And one of those options would have been the Norte Chico.”

One page later:

In the Norte Chico, Haas told me, government seems not to have arisen from the need for mutual defense, as philosophers have often speculated. The twenty-five cities were not sited strategically and did not have defensive walls; no evidence of warfare, such as burned buildings or mutilated corpses, has been found. Instead, he said, the basis of the rulers’ power was the collective economic and spiritual good.

And did you know that there is no “wild corn” as there is a wild strain or natural strain of every other agriculturally farmed grain? Indigenous people developed it. It is still an ongoing argument and mystery about how they accomplished this great feat thousands of years ago. And by the time white people arrived it was grown all over the Americas. It was quite complex here.

Many early indigenous cultures built astonishing and sophisticated irrigation systems. They farmed fish in vast man made mazes. There is even one theory in the book regarding the Amazon basin that is worth the reading alone.

Some people have argued if they were so advanced in Peru why didn’t they develop the wheel. They actually did have wheels, but they were used on toys. Domestic animals large enough to make the wheel practical on the exceedingly steep terrain of Peru’s cities were lacking. It was more practical to carry a burden up the many terraces and stairways.

Even the philosophy behind our very American style of government and the American attitude is closely associated with the native tribes that the pilgrims and settlers came in contact with in New England. Early arrivals were at first shocked and annoyed by the native’s fierce insistence that no individual was basically any better than any other individual. This was not popular with the upper crust, who were very used to lording it over those of lower class. The lower class, of course, were fascinated with this new idea that money, land and title did not make a person better or more important than another. The native people were fiercely independent, proud and did not believe they should bow down to, or be intimidated by someone, just because they were white, had guns and did not bathe. Many a white person joined tribes or adopted native ways.

Not only were these people fiercely independent, they had also figured out a way to live in peace with their neighbors, joining five nations into a confederacy that operated under the Haudenosaunee constitution: the Great Law of Peace. All decisions had to be unanimous among the five nations. The heads of each clan were women who managed the internal business of the clans and chose the representatives who were men. The men were admonished to “heed the warnings of your women relatives.” If there was an extremely important matter or emergency they were required to “submit the matter to the decision of their people” in a kind of referendum. There were a number of checks and balances in place to and codicils limiting the power of the council. Interestingly, and unlike our government, it could negotiate peace, but could not declare war.

I could go on and on about our mis-conceptions regarding the inhabitants of the Americas before and after the arrival of Europeans (and I guess I have). An extremely important factor is that the diseases the Europeans brought fanned out before them, decimating populations that had never even seen a white man. There were complex trade routes that exposed many people very quickly. By the time exploration took place it seemed there were very few indigenous people and they mostly lived primitive, nomadic lives. The author said it would be like finding the refuges from the Holocaust wandering the street after being release from concentration camps and assuming that they were a society of people who had no possessions, and simply wandered around in a state of starvation.

Some people say “seeing is believing,” but what the eyes see is not always the truth. We interpret what our eyes see and, unfortunately too often, make assumptions in arrogance and/or ignorance. Personally I think ignorance is more forgivable than arrogance, because sometimes ignorance can’t be helped – it’s just lack of information.

I’m getting ready to sort through, donate, sell, pack up or gift the remainder of our possessions in Oregon, so I’m most likely going to be real busy for the next few weeks and will only have time to post short thoughts. Just felt fired up about this subject because of “1491” and its thought provoking words.

It truly did make me wonder about those early Baja cave painters and the populations that were found here in what had to be a harsh environment not conducive to much of anything but eating that aphrodisiac pithahya cactus in baby making season, fishing, hunting and the occasional scrap with neighbors. Maybe some things never change …

[Edited on 6-8-2007 by Gnome-ad]

[Edited on 6-8-2007 by Gnome-ad]

Gnome-ad - 6-8-2007 at 04:26 AM

Yikes bahalera! It's 4:32am here in Eugene. I'm definitely NOT getting enough sleep tonight. But it was worth it to read your words about the early people of Baja and to share my recent revelations and thoughts.

Cypress - 6-8-2007 at 05:42 AM

Gnome-ad AKA Mrs. Amir, Enjoyed reading your post.

Thanks.

Good luck with the packing and the journey.

My LAST Word !

MrBillM - 6-8-2007 at 09:57 AM

I know it's a relief to read that.

After this last assessment, I'll leave the Thread to those who gather in praise of the early Aboriginal inhabitants. I readily admit that I DO have a degree of contempt for the lack of technical prowess demonstrated by those native peoples. We need only compare those societies to that of Europe, Asia and even Saharan Africa at any given time in recorded history to know that they were woefully backwards.

It has always been true that history is written by the victors. Earlier there was a post that treated that as some sort of revelation. Even so, my contrarian view is not a result of misconceptions or lack of research as the opposition loves to claim in order to validate their positions. Simply look at the record of progress in the competing societies. For whatever reasons that we can only guess at, the natives of the American continent didn't progress at the same pace when we look at the hallmarks of civilization as we know it. As I said, we can only make educated Guesses for the reasons since they were also backwards in developing written communication skills. For hundreds of years PRIOR to the Birth of Christ, written languages were common in Europe, Asia and North Africa. The differences are undeniable.

That's ALL, Folks.

BTW, it wasn't too many years ago that a mummified aborigine whose death from Tuberculosis predated the European arrival was found in the northeast casting doubt that all of those diseases were imported by the Conquerors.

Mexitron - 6-8-2007 at 10:20 AM

Gnice post Gnome-ad...thanks...

Iflyfish - 6-8-2007 at 10:29 AM

Gnome-ad

I appreciate your thoughtful and informative post. I love to learn and your post has taught me some things.

I am always pleased to read information as opposed to rhetoric.

Bernie

The Journeyer may be about a eunoch who wanders Europe in the Middle ages and experiences the virtues of the highly developed and spritiually evolved European continent the Bill so eloquently describes.

His Book Marco Polo was renamed and I may have it confused with the book noted above.

Iflyfish

amir - 6-8-2007 at 11:30 AM

It won't be long when a future civilization will be studying us, and they will come to the inevitable conclusion that in the XXI century, contemporary technical prowess in the North American continent was indeed primitive and woefully backwards in relation to the newer cultures of the future.

Future researchers will probably also discover that the hallmark of progress in the most powerful civilization as we know it today was [woefully backwards] WAR. Future scientists will also come to the conclusion that infectious agents have been around since Creation, but it is the contact with diseased carriers that spreads the disease.

bahiamia - 6-8-2007 at 11:42 AM

I think one has to understand or at least try to understand the view from the "natives"...I am proud to be part American Indian from my Mom's side. She spent some time on the reservation and they are not very happy places. Lots of people think reservations are areas where the various tribes originally came from and just got to stay on...not true. But that's a different topic.

One has to realize the thinking and view of the world is different for a "Native" than those from Europe, or Africa, Asia, etc. And that is as it should be. For an Indian, God is not someplace far away in heaven, but all around us in Nature. He not only created it, but is part of it. That's why there is so much reverence towards nature in the Indian culture. To plow it under and build a massive structure on it or even to clear a field for planting went against that reverence. So it's more about having a different approach to life.

Their history and culture was passed down verbally for the most part, not written. But also their designs and art tell a story. That was their way and their "lanquage". Much of this got lost...and for those who survived, they were punished if they spoke in their native tongue or followed the ways of their culture. It's sad so much of it got lost, and for those brave enough back then to keep it alive, I have the utmost respect.

Just a different point of view...

Gnome-ad - 6-8-2007 at 01:07 PM

I am glad to see that MrBillM is still right 99.9999% of the time. What a relief!

I, too, love technology, but personally do not equate it with superiority on a human level. Europe, Asia and Africa undoubtedly contributed a vast amount to our current state of evolution and certainly hold more sway over our technological progress. They are also in close proximity to one another relatively speaking, with a rich cauldron of differing discoveries taking place and being shared more easily amongst those cultures with one building on top of the other in many cases.

It is widely thought that the indigenous of the Americas left no written language. As it turns out, they did, but it was accomplished once again in a different and foreign way; a way that until recently was overlooked as some sort of record keeping. Early records were kept with complicated knots in different colors of cotton thread that served as a record of transactions and events. They used tremendous memory capacity as did the Hawaiians to remember what all these knots meant. Unfortunately most of the “books” that were recognizable as such were destroyed almost immediately by the Spanish conquerors. Eight remain. The ability to destroy has many times been associated with superiority.

It seems the thought of Mesoamericans was that timekeeping was more important than records of transactions (which was the impetus for writing in the Middle East). So these simple savages “developed three calendars, a 365-day secular calendar; a 260-day sacred calendar that was like no other calendar on earth; and the equally unique Long Count, a one-by-one tally of the days since a fixed starting point thousands of years ago. Establishing these three calendars required advances in astronomy; synchronizing them required ventures into mathematics.” By synchronizing the secular and the sacred calendar they were able to identify every date in a 52 year period uniquely. The Long Count added one more standard to identify all the 52 year periods.

In order for the complicated calendars to work properly those early people came up with the concept of zero for a positional location system. I did not know before reading this book that “the concept of zero baffled Europeans as late as the Renaissance. How can you calculate with nothing? they asked. Fearing that Hindu-Arabic numerals – the 0 through 9 used today – would promote confusion and fraud, some European authorities banned them until the fourteenth century.”[i/]

Mr. Mann also states that tentatively “archaeologists assign the invention of zero to (the Olmec) sometime before 32 B.C., centuries ahead of its invention in India.”[i/]

Too bad these cultures did not flourish and continue in some chronological way to prove that they were indeed genius. Instead they fell to wars, disease, drought, earthquakes and the eventual conquest. Their genius came in waves, but did not as MrBillM states, continue its progress as is the hallmark of the other continents that passed the ball back and forth always keeping it rolling. The Mesoamericans simply had no one to pass it to, so all we can do now is study its scattered remains.

I do not dispute that tuberculosis may have been in the Americas along with syphilis, but the parts of “1491” that deal with epidemiology clearly explain how simple diseases that may only kill a few of populations that have been exposed to it over centuries can kill much larger numbers of populations with no exposure. The disease traffic was most certainly a one way street from Europeans to native populations with a small sidewalk in the opposite direction. The origins of syphilis are still in debate, as it may have existed across the Atlantic before 1492, but perhaps it should be noted that the spread of that disease from the Americas to Europe was probably from the act of rape by the Europeans rather than from the act of just being close to the wrong diseased person at the wrong time.

I do not think indigenous Americans were “better” or “more advanced”, but I do feel they have been given the very short end of a very big stick for far too long. They still have much to teach about how to live on the planet, something we all have in common as human beings. Their highly evolved understanding of our place in nature is something we could all benefit from taking a closer look at. Somewhere way back in my ancestry there is some native blood – more in my children’s lineage. After reading “1491” I had a greater appreciation of what that really means.

Somehow after three hours of sleep last night and much to do today I was still inspired by this thread to write some more. Thanks to all of you who made kind comments about my last posting here. Sorry this ranges off topic.

Iflyfish - 6-8-2007 at 02:44 PM

I don't believe that this ranges off topic in the least. We are dealing with cross cultural issues that come up all the time. All human beings are ethnocentric, that is believe that their group, tribe, country, nation is the center of the universe. This perspective creates ongoing misunderstanding between peoples of different cultures. These ethnocentric perspectives can even cause war.

At one point I generated a thread named "Cultural Differences Ain't They Interesting" on this board and there was a wide ranging, and mostly civil discussion about common differences between USofA and Baja culture. You might be interested in visiting this dialogue. I found it fascinating and learned a great deal. One of the most directly beneficial results was the recommendation that I read the book "There Is A Word For It In Mexico" which clarified for me much of the confusion I have experienced in my forty some years of travel in Mexico.

In regard to the sophistication of the pre Columbian civilizations of Mesoamerica, I have found that the buildings of Chaco Canyon were plotted out on lines leading over the horizon. It requires highly imaginative and advanced thinking to achieve such a thing.

It is very difficult to see the bones in our own noses due to our own ethnocentricity. One cultures barbarism is another’s sacred duty or holy war.

It is interesting to me how NeoCons cut and run when evidence is presented that opposes their world view. I have had this experience on a number of occasions. I doubt that for many a reasonable argument can be either clearly heard nor integrated. It is clear to me that our individual psychology so informs our vision and thinking that without addressing ones underlying biases we literally cannot see or hear the perspectives of others.

A very interesting series of studies were carried out at Adelphi University in New York on the Authoritarian Personality after WWII. There was great interest in this area of study after two of these characters came into power at the same time in both Germany and Italy. The studies concluded that this type of character is actually found on both ends of the political spectrum and has it’s roots in early childhood development.

I am going to attach a rather long quote from the Seneca Chief, Red Jacket. I am doing so because I believe it so poignantly and directly addresses the issues raised by BillM as well as the problem of ethnocentricity.

It is rather interesting to read what this “savage” had to say to his missionary brethren in 1805.

Seneca was a member of the Iroquois Confederacy, the structure of which was described in a prior post on this thread.
Red Jacket Defends Native American Religion, 1805
by Red Jacket
The Senecas, members of the Iroquois Confederacy, fought on the side of the British in the American Revolution. Red Jacket, also known as Sagoyewatha, was a chief and orator born in eastern New York; he derived his English name from his habit of wearing many red coats provided to him by his British allies. After the hostilities, as the British ceded their territories to the Americans, the Senecas and many other Indian peoples faced enormous pressure on their homelands. Red Jacket was a critical mediator in relations between the new U.S. government and the Senecas; he led a delegation that met with George Washington in 1792, when he received a peace medal that appeared in subsequent portraits of the Indian leader. In 1805 a Boston missionary society requested Red Jacket’s permission to proselytize among the Iroquois settlements in northern New York State. Red Jacket’s forceful defense of native religion, below, caused the representative to refuse the Indian’s handshake and announce that no fellowship could exist between the religion of God and the works of the Devil.
________________________________________
Friend and brother; it was the will of the Great Spirit that we should meet together this day. He orders all things, and he has given us a fine day for our council. He has taken his garment from before the sun, and caused it to shine with brightness upon us; our eyes are opened, that we see clearly; our ears are unstopped, that we have been able to hear distinctly the words that you have spoken; for all these favors we thank the Great Spirit, and him only.
Brother, this council fire was kindled by you; it was at your request that we came together at this time; we have listened with attention to what you have said. You requested us to speak our minds freely; this gives us great joy, for we now consider that we stand upright before you, and can speak what we think; all have heard your voice, and all speak to you as one man; our minds are agreed.
Brother, you say you want an answer to your talk before you leave this place. It is right you should have one, as you are a great distance from home, and we do not wish to detain you; but we will first look back a little, and tell you what our fathers have told us, and what we have heard from the white people.
Brother, listen to what we say. There was a time when our forefathers owned this great island. Their seats extended from the rising to the setting sun. The Great Spirit had made it for the use of Indians. He had created the buffalo, the deer, and other animals for food. He made the bear and the beaver, and their skins served us for clothing. He had scattered them over the country, and taught us how to take them. He had caused the earth to produce corn for bread. All this he had done for his red children because he loved them. If we had any disputes about hunting grounds, they were generally settled without the shedding of much blood. But an evil day came upon us; your forefathers crossed the great waters, and landed on this island. Their numbers were small; they found friends, and not enemies; they told us they had fled from their own country for fear of wicked men, and come here to enjoy their religion. They asked for a small seat; we took pity on them, granted their request, and they sat down amongst us; we gave them corn and meat; they gave us poison in return. The white people had now found our country; tidings were carried back, and more came amongst us; yet we did not fear them, we took them to be friends; they called us brothers; we believed them, and gave them a larger seat. At length, their numbers had greatly increased; they wanted more land; they wanted our country. Our eyes were opened, and our minds became uneasy. Wars took place; Indians were hired to fight against Indians, and many of our people were destroyed. They also brought strong liquor among us; it was strong and powerful, and has slain thousands.
Brother, our seats were once large, and yours were very small; you have now become a great people, and we have scarcely a place left to spread our blankets; you have got our country, but are not satisfied; you want to force your religion upon us.
Brother, continue to listen. You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind, and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost; how do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?
Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?
Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.
Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference between his white and red children; he has given us a different complexion, and different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a different religion according to our understanding. The Great Spirit does right; he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.
Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own.
Brother, you say you have not come to get our land or our money, but to enlighten our minds. I will now tell you that I have been at your meetings, and saw you collecting money from the meeting. I cannot tell what this money was intended for, but suppose it was for your minister; and if we should conform to your way of thinking, perhaps you may want some from us.
Brother, we are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this place. These people are our neighbors; we are acquainted with them; we will wait, a little while and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.
Brother, you have now heard our answer to your talk, and this is all we have to say at present. As we are going to part, we will come and take you by the hand, and hope the Great Spirit will protect you on your journey, and return you safe to your friends.
Source: Daniel Drake, Lives of Celebrated American Indians, Boston, Bradbury, Soden & Co. 1843), 283–87.

Iflyfish

bajalera iflyfish gnome-ad

sylens - 6-8-2007 at 03:53 PM

and other contributors to this rich and enlightening thread, mil gracias. i just finished (re-)watching the film hawaii and the thoughts and feelings it evoked have been beautifully articulated and elaborated by reading this wonderful topic, delightfully titled "sharing and caring." :bounce:

One more thought...

bahiamia - 6-8-2007 at 08:53 PM

Quote:

Simply look at the record of progress in the competing societies. For whatever reasons that we can only guess at, the natives of the American continent didn't progress at the same pace when we look at the hallmarks of civilization as we know it. As I said, we can only make educated Guesses for the reasons since they were also backwards in developing written communication skills. For hundreds of years PRIOR to the Birth of Christ, written languages were common in Europe, Asia and North Africa. The differences are undeniable.

Ok, so if all this progress going on over Europe and elsewhere, why did their inhabitants risk life and limb to cross an ocean, to unknown lands and leave all that progress, civilization & technology behind? What were they seeking? Why were all those grandiose achievements in science, written text, and other doings not enough to keep them satisfied if that's really what it's all about in life?

[Edited on 6-9-2007 by bahiamia]

Why ?

MrBillM - 6-8-2007 at 09:32 PM

Although I had not intended to comment further on this thread, this question/comment by bahiamia has too simple an answer to pass up. It is so obvious that it's difficult to believe that this is a real question:

Q.
"Ok, so if all this progress going on over Europe and elsewhere, why did their inhabitants risk life and limb to cross an ocean, to unknown lands to leave all that progress, civilization & technology behind? What were they seeking? Why were all those grandiose achievements in science, written text, and other doings not enough to keep them satisfied and give them satisfaction if that's really what it's all about in life?"

A. MORE ! Wealth, that is. Love them or Hate them, they came for whatever they could find of value. In addition to Gold and Silver, they came for ANYTHING (including Humans) that would further enrich their respective countries. This has ALWAYS been the reason for seeking out unknown territories.

But then, you knew that, didn't you ?

Iflyfish - 6-8-2007 at 11:44 PM

MrBillM wrote:

"MORE ! Wealth, that is. Love them or Hate them, they came for whatever they could find of value. In addition to Gold and Silver, they came for ANYTHING (including Humans) that would further enrich their respective countries. This has ALWAYS been the reason for seeking out unknown territories."

I am certain that most of the Conquistadores were motivated by a desire to enhance their economic and social well being. None expected Cortez to pull the plug and sink the boat. Most wished to return home with wealth.

I also believe that behavior is multiply determined and to posit that the ONLY motivation for "seeking out unknown territories" was economic gain does not take into account other motivations that might also have been moving these people to cross an ocean to a distant continent. Some may have been AVOIDING issues at home. Some also may have been motivated by a WONDERLUST that was focused on this sort of adventure. People don't just join the Marines to "Serve their Country." They often have scores to settle, points to prove, self discipline to gain etc. I have seen many young men join the military to AVOID prison.

I have traveled to unknown territories to enrich my EXPERIENCE of life and my KNOWLEDGE of other people and other CULTURES. CURIOSITY, WONDER and a THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE have been a big part of my WONDERLUST for sure. I have never made a dime in all my travels, in fact I have put out a lot of them. I am sure that other humans before me have had similar motivations.

Do you think that courageous among us who join The Peace Corps are motivated by the vision of PROFIT? You seem to believe that economics motivates all behavior. You are in good company there with Chairman Mao who postulated that people in the West developed their identity around Capitalism and the acquisition of personal wealth.

When asked who we are in the USofA most would say what job we hold. In most other cultures that question would be answered with references to kinship bonds i.e. "I am the son of .......the daughter of.......the nephew to....... Many see this aspect of USofA Culture and identity as aberrant and Narcissistic. Some see us as a bunch of "Tribes of One" with no identification with the "Commons", or the larger group to which we belong.

Notice bahiamia's comments, delivered with a great sense of humility, and respect. Notice the sense of belonging and respect for self and environment in what he is saying? He is expressing a different way of experiencing and valuing the very short time that we have on this earth and of our relation to it. You no doubt do not acknowledge the reality of global warming. You no doubt deny the reality of the damage to the land that strip mining has had. You no doubt deny the relation between man made pollution and the numbers of children in the world dying of asthma. You no doubt deny that our rivers are being polluted to the edge of extinction. You no doubt deny that the levels of mercury have increased so much in lakes in the USofA that the fish are uneatable. You no doubt deny that the USofA is seen as the last of the Colonial Empires that engages in war to exploit other nations. You no doubt deny that our “progress and technology”, the military type, where we are putting most of our wealth, is creating havoc in the world and taking and ruining the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. You no doubt believe that the values expressed by the USofA are superior to “native peoples who want to live in peace and harmony with the earth” and that we have nothing to learn from them.

It is clear from this and other posts that you value technological progress above all other human values and motivations. Some would feel sad and empty with such a narrow view of what has value in life.

You have read very thoughtful and well though out posts that challenge your pejorative perspective related to Native Peoples. I am sorry that you have so much to defend and so little to defend it with.

bahiamia plays Red Jacket to your jingoistic Missionary posts and you do not even see it.

Ilfyfish

Jingoism ??

MrBillM - 6-9-2007 at 11:49 AM

I'm glad to see that the Warm, Caring and Cuddly Liberals who take offense at personal attacks refrain from doing the same themselves.

Yeh, Right. Terms like "Uneducated, Ignorant, Jingoistic , Xenophobic and (the real zinger) Homophobic are ALL insulting, albeit not profane.

I'm not complaining, mind you, just reminding others of the inherent Hypocrisy bred into the Liberal Neural Processes.

The point that "individuals" may have had a variety of motives in deciding to accompany others in the Search to the New Worlds is simplistic and irrelevent. The only Motives relevent are those of the people IN CHARGE. In the Case of Columbus, that was Queen Isabella. In that case and other Nation-sponsored exploration, the motive of the Sovereign was as I stated. The intense competition between the European powers (England, France, Spain, Portugal for the most part) at any given time resulted in voyages to enhance the wealth and power of those nations. In the case of Columbus, he promised Isabella a route to the Indies other than that controlled by Portugal.

I suppose you could add to that the desire to spread Chrisianity (Catholic Version) to the savage infidels of the new worlds, but that was a secondary parallel motive. It is commonly theorized that the "Conversion" motive was, in addition to controlling the native populace, something of an excuse to give the Sovereigns a HIGHER Reason than Greed for their efforts.

Make no mistake, though, GREED was the Number One Reason.

BTW, Jingoistic MAY not have been the Best adjective for your insult. Egocentric (among others) would probably fit better.

But, believe whatever you want, regardless of facts. Some people think that they're Napolean or Christ. It doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Scientific and Technological Progress IS the Hallmark of Civilization.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure it will come as no surprise that I have long considered Ayn Rand one of History's greatest Philosophers.

[Edited on 6-9-2007 by MrBillM]

Mr. Bill

Baja Bernie - 6-9-2007 at 12:20 PM

Just an observer here........will there be a fourth and fifth 'last' comment coming soon to this..........................................Hope not!

I am also an admirer of Ayn Rand.............I guess I just read her differently.

[Edited on 6-9-2007 by Baja Bernie]

Seeking Fellowship with the Dings

MrBillM - 6-9-2007 at 12:46 PM

Since a recurrent theme uttered by the Left frequently (in defense of their Comrades) is "Changing your mind in view of events indicates a mature thought process" or words to that effect, I am merely conforming to that rational process.

amir - 6-9-2007 at 01:08 PM

Conforming to a rational process, MrBM? Am I reading this right?
No, no, no, my mistake. You speaketh with a forked tongue.
But who knows - we all change when we grow up...

Iflyfish - 6-9-2007 at 01:16 PM

MrBillM wrote:
"I readily admit that I DO have a degree of contempt for the lack of technical prowess demonstrated by those native peoples. We need only compare those societies to that of Europe, Asia and even Saharan Africa at any given time in recorded history to know that they were woefully backwards."

"Since a recurrent theme uttered by the Left frequently (in defense of their Comrades) is "Changing your mind in view of events indicates a mature thought process" or words to that effect, I am merely conforming to that rational process."

You still deny the technical prowess of indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica even in the face of powerful information to the contrary.

You still denigrate the inhabitants who predated those from Europe as being backward even in the face of clear information related to their linguistic, architectural and social development and achievements.

MrBillM wrote:
"BTW, Jingoistic MAY not have been the Best adjective for your insult. Egocentric (among others) would probably fit better."

Ego and Ethnocentric I think. I give you points for the introspection sufficient for the insight related to your Egocentricity. While you are engaging in the self analysis, I would also suggest that you consider the possibility of hubris.

Iflyfish

And ON and ON and ON

MrBillM - 6-9-2007 at 02:34 PM

It's amazing (but common) to see how words can be cherry-picked to come to a conclusion different from what is actually said, but I'm used to it from the Comrades.

1. I haven't addressed the accomplishments and achievements of the American Aborigines at all other than placing a RELATIVE value assessment in comparison with the Contemporary and Earlier European, Asian and North African cultures. When judged in RELATIVE terms, it is impossible to deny those cultures were more advanced than the Aborigines. You can defend that difference, as written earlier, by saying that those cultures relative proximity to each other resulted in a sharing of knowledge giving them an advantage. That's fine. I would give that argument some weight. In making that argument, you are affirming that such an undeniable gap existed.

2. I suppose we could engage in a cultural tit-for-tat where you could post an archaeological or sociological artifact from a specific Pre-Columbian American period and I could counter with one from Europe, Asia or North Africa. I'm confident that I could find superior examples.

3. Egocentric works fine. The Greatness of man results from the Ego. As far as Hubris goes, I don't think it's a matter of Arrogance, simply a matter of confidence in factual analysis. Ethnocentric doesn't apply either, except as another insult. It ignores the fact that I'm not claiming that only my Ethnicity had achieved such superior progress. Note that I included Asia and Saharan Africa.

Call it whatever you want. I'll assign that opinion whatever little I want. Everybody goes away happy.

Gnome-ad - 6-9-2007 at 03:31 PM

Wow! I’m gone for a day or so and the thread increases its knots of words and becomes ever more interesting. I am thrilled to read all the wisdom and information here that I was hoping to find on this board. I would say, too, that MrBillM’s attitudes and EGO have added to this thread for me, for without him would we all have been called to add all the profoundly interesting and informative items that we have? Perhaps, but I still will say thank you, MrBillM.

I have frequently found myself expressing my opinions and beliefs more clearly after being challenged. As MrBillM is comfortable in his world, viewed through his glasses, I am comfortable in mine. On this forum I get to understand better the views with which I do not agree and to hear eloquently expressed the views which resonate more with my core. There have been times when certain individuals have been threatening or bullying on other threads, but I do not find MrBillM to be either. While he may not be totally respectful, since he disagrees so deeply, he has not resorted to long harangues, thankfully.

I have kept on my wall for years a National Geographic poster of The Known Universe just to keep some perspective. I long ago came out of my religious torpor and belief in American superiority in all things to view the planet and all the people on it to be as intricately connected as the cells of my body. Some of my cells create my eyes and my brain and my heart, while others are involved with processing excrement. If they could speak, I’m sure each would assert that its function was the most important correct one, if they somehow lost sight of their interconnectedness. I defend the right of my middle finger to rise in salute while my heart breaks at all the fear and anger in the world. If the universe is also so connected, then perhaps the earth only represents a tear falling from the eye of the creator.

As I and others have written on this thread, the indigenous people of the Americas are so much more than the stereotypes that are so easy for some to believe in and espouse. They still, after all the thievery of, and misery caused by the conquerors, have much wisdom to impart and the kindness and heart to still try to do so. They are aware that The Great Spirit is not a capitalist, a communist, a lefty, or right-wing. The Great Spirit is not Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Sufi. The Great Spirit imbues all of humanity and the earth, including the animals and all creatures, even the mountains, the rivers and the oceans, with spirit. Some may view this as animistic or ignorant or simplistic. Simplistic? I don’t think so. The web of life on this planet is so far from being simple and is so intricately woven. It always astounds me that some ultra-religious people who believe in God in the traditional sense are the ones who deny the negative impact humans can have on the wonders of life by our employment of free will in the destructive process. So, I am heartened that some of us attempt to listen to and understand the people who are more connected to the earth. If we don’t live here, where will we take up residence? I believe that there is much wisdom in the world, hidden away in many places including (but not limited to) small villages and pueblos on every continent, not just the Americas. Thanks to the internet, perhaps in the future, that wisdom will become the prevalent mind-set rather than the drive of the few in charge for MORE.

So Baja Nomads – write on!

Iflyfish - 6-9-2007 at 06:18 PM

Gnome-ad wrote:

"I long ago came out of my religious torpor and belief in American superiority in all things to view the planet and all the people on it to be as intricately connected as the cells of my body. Some of my cells create my eyes and my brain and my heart, while others are involved with processing excrement. If they could speak, I’m sure each would assert that its function was the most important correct one, if they somehow lost sight of their interconnectedness. I defend the right of my middle finger to rise in salute while my heart breaks at all the fear and anger in the world. If the universe is also so connected, then perhaps the earth only represents a tear falling from the eye of the creator.

Man that is well said! Saludos

MrBillM has stimulated some really great dialogue for sure.
The Baja ain't just about sand and cactus!

Iflyfish

dr650 - 6-9-2007 at 08:55 PM

I have read this thread with great interest. I want to particularly recognize the timeless and patient eloquence that has unfolded from the women of this forum in response to Mr. Bill's myopic and racist insanity.

They have factually presented pertinent information ... much like they would to a small child ... that has knocked Mr. Bill sideways from his trike.

Mr. Bill is a knowledgeable man. He has gifted use of the English language that he wishes all to see. And yet he continues to peddle madly around in circles spewing dust, throwing fits, and getting nowhere. Even now, he clutches to his shallow beliefs in some futile attempt to feel masterful, to feed the need for feeling right, to win the war. Let him sleep. He has a hard day every day, and so many miles to wander.

Murphy

Gnome-ad - 6-10-2007 at 03:45 AM

Iflyfish – thank you. I have enjoyed your posts as well. Keep up! :tumble:

dr650 - I was excited to get my avatar on the forum tonight since I had enough posts. When I read your post I had to laugh that I had picked this piece of my art to represent me. Hmmmm, are you psychic? Is this co-incidence once more on the forum, or a plot of some kind? :lol:

David K - 6-10-2007 at 08:30 AM

Pre-mission or pre-European Native Americans (Indians) did leave us beautiful and interesting rock art in Baja that we enjoy finding and viewing today! :light:

Can't we all just get along?

smlslikfish - 6-10-2007 at 08:42 AM

I personally have found this topic enlightening. The differing wiewpoints say more about the authors than anything else. People will always have differences of opinion, but I for one appreciate a well thought out point of view and have seem some on both sides of this discussion. Why the need to attack? Does it really matter?

Extending Gratitude to the New Guy

MrBillM - 6-10-2007 at 08:55 AM

dr650.

It is always refreshing to find a voice in the opposition who confirms my convictions. in this case, dr650 manages to add an irrational invective to the discussion. Once again uttering a counterpoint for those on the Left who decry personal invective by those who share my viewpoint. Those "Gracious and Caring" who support said Rational and Civil discourse are, once again, confronted by one of their own giving the lie to that position.

From dr650:
............"in response to Mr. Bill's myopic and racist insanity."

...........yet he continues to peddle madly around in circles spewing dust, throwing fits, and getting nowhere. Even now, he clutches to his shallow beliefs in some futile attempt to feel masterful"........

Let it be noted that nowhere does he/she address a single point addressed to the discussion, but rather devotes his/her contribution to personal insult.

That small contribution stands in stark contrast to "Gnome-ad" who has presented the most articulate and gracious disagreement with my opinions.

Thanks again dr.

[Edited on 6-10-2007 by MrBillM]

One man's art...

Dave - 6-10-2007 at 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Pre-mission or pre-European Native Americans (Indians) did leave us beautiful and interesting rock art in Baja that we enjoy finding and viewing today! :light:

Looks like pre-gang graffiti to me. All you need is a sandblaster and...good as new. :smug:

Mexitron - 6-10-2007 at 10:25 AM

Bahiamia--I have to take some exception to your statement about the Indians not even wanting to "clear a field for planting" due to it being irreverrant. At least the plains Indians were well known to light massive prairie fires to create better grazing for deer and buffalo. The Indians around Jamestown cultivated crops, as did the Hopi.

That said, they did have an intense connection with the earth and generally only took what they needed to survive. Their mythologies were some of the deepest and most meaningful I've ever read...masterpieces I think, on par with the best of the Greek and Hindu stories. Just because they weren't written down doesn't diminish the magnitude of the wisdom.

toneart - 6-10-2007 at 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Pre-mission or pre-European Native Americans (Indians) did leave us beautiful and interesting rock art in Baja that we enjoy finding and viewing today! :light:

Looks like pre-gang graffiti to me. All you need is a sandblaster and...good as new. :smug:

Not academy trained, huh? Just think, when the archaeologists and aliens uncover our era, you and I will be represented by gang graffiti. God! How primitive we must have been!

In support of some of the posters here, who's to say that there weren't cave dwelling gangs despoiling rocks and consequently giving civilization a false impression (according to our judgment)?

Now, if I could just get my tongue out of my cheek (it stiffens with excitement whenever I read bilious right wing positions), I think I will go back to bed. :yawn:

Reverence ...

bahiamia - 6-10-2007 at 01:04 PM

Mexitron,

Perhaps I did not use the correct word to describe it, but this is what I was trying to get across:

"You ask me to plow the ground. Shall I take a knife and tear my mother’s bosom? Then when I die she will not take me to her bosom to rest. You ask me to dig for stones! Shall I dig under her skin for her bones? Then when I die I cannot enter her body to be born again. You ask me to cut grass and make hay and sell it, and be rich like white men, how dare I cut my mother’s hair? I want my people to stay with me here. Their spirits will come to their bodies again. We must wait here in the homes of our fathers and be ready to meet them in the bosom of our mother."
- Wovoka, Paiute

In December 1982, on the high plains of Alberta, forty wise, respected and dedicated elders, spiritual leaders and community members from different tribal societies across North
America came together for four days and nights of in-depth purposeful consultation. Our common purpose was to develop a model of human and community development, inspired and guided by organizing principles, values, strategies and processes of sustainable change, healing and development rooted deep in the natural laws that are at the inmost heart and core of tribal cultures throughout Mother Earth. Here is an excerpt"

"... Just look at what we do to our Mother Earth. We cut her hair where it should not be cut and rip up her skin where it should not be ripped up, then we drill holes inside her and suck all of her blood out and put things inside of her and blow her bones up." He then looked deeply into the eyes of my grandfather and shook his finger. "And what would happen if you did that to your mother?"

"I was born in Nature’s wide domain! The trees were all that sheltered my infant limbs, the blue heavens all that covered me. I am one of Nature’s children. I have always admired her. She shall be my glory: her features, her robes, and the wreath about her brow, the seasons, her stately oaks, and the evergreen — her hair, ringlets over the earth — all contribute to my enduring love of her."
George Copway (Kahgegagahbowh), Ojibwe

And Finally:

"POVERTY AND SIMPLICITY

We original Americans have generally been despised by our white conquerors of our poverty and simplicity. They forget, perhaps, that our religion forbade the accumulation of wealth and the enjoyment of luxury. To us, as to other spiritually-minded people in every age and race, the love of possessions is a snare, and the burdens of a complex society a source of needless peril and temptation… It is simple truth that we Indians did not, so long as our native philosophy held sway over our minds, either envy or desire to imitate the splendid achievements of the white race. In our own thought we rose superior to them! We scorned them, even as a lofty spirit absorbed in its own task rejects the soft beds, the luxurious food, the pleasure-worshipping dalliance of a rich neighbor. It was clear to us that virtue and happiness are independent of these things, if not incompatible with them… Furthermore, it was the rule of our life to share the fruits of our skill and success with our less fortunate brothers and sisters. Thus we kept our spirits free from the clog of pride, avarice, or envy, and carried out, as we believed, the divine decree — a matter of profound importance to us."

Found on this website

[Edited on 6-10-2007 by bahiamia]

Gnome-ad - 6-10-2007 at 03:59 PM

bahiamia ~ beautiful quotes and self expression. Thank you so much.

mexitron ~ yes, many of the tribal people were very much into managing and working with nature.

I read with interest in “1491” and/or “Aztec” about the masterful management of Nature by many indigenous peoples, particularly in the southern climes, but also in the eastern present day U.S.: terracing, irrigation and aqueducts, hanging gardens, fish holding areas, soil enhancement, the fantastic creation of islands in large inland lakes to suit their needs for self-defense and agriculture. They planted crops together that did not deplete the soil – corn, squash and beans when grown in concert can be grown over and over without damage to the earth and provide a nutritious, balanced and healthful diet. In Mexico City they engineered indoor baths and steam rooms, indoor toilets with running water to flush waste, complete with sewer systems, while Europe slogged through the previous night’s slops on the streets and went unwashed for months.

But while Europeans had chite on their shoes, they did have books, though few could actually read them. Only the elite could read the codices of the natives of present day Mexico as well. I’m off track a bit here because I’m comparing apples and oranges. The act of comparison begs the question – which was the “superior” way of being. So, which do you prefer – apples or oranges? I think they are both wonderful fruits and I refuse to vote for one or the other as better. I embrace and appreciate both for what juicy, positive things they have to offer. I simply marvel at the great diversity of it all and am thankful that we can see some examples here in Baja of the people who were here before us.

Were they gangs marking their territory with an early form of tagging? Were they family units recording a good day of fishing or hunting? Were they shamans making entreaty for blessings from their various gods? I don’t know, maybe they were some, none or all of my suggestions. I do know that we greatly enjoyed our day trip outside Mulege to see cave paintings that seemed to have required some engineering to reach the heights they did and more subtle rock carvings such as the great photo DavidK was good enough to share. Maybe the feat of engineering of early Baja nomads was to pile up a bunch of rubble so they could paint way, way up there and then remove the rubble. Whatever it was it took imagination and tenacity. Some legends say they were a race of giants – that’s why they could do it. Perhaps they did it because they had too much time on their hands and just wanted to leave a message for the next folks to come along … perhaps we continue their humble beginnings with our postings. I know I enjoy carving my words electronically – so much easier on the hands! :yes:

A slightly different view

Baja Bernie - 6-10-2007 at 05:01 PM

I have been reading the post on this thread for quite a while and in fact have described myself as an observer and that I have remained until now. I had held my tongue because I was hoping Lee, bajalera, would chime in with the knowledge that she possesses in abundance about not only the Indians of Baja and how they were treated by those enlightened purveyors of death who came to all of Latin America and Mexico.

Of course I am speaking of those compassionate priests who represented the most intellectually advance nation in Europe. These learned men accompanied the military arm who conquered in the name of the Kings and Queens where have been thoroughly certified as the most deranged folks in all of Europe. These nutcases came to Spain other parts of Europe and had so much regard for their subjects in Spain that they left only eight million alive out of the twenty million they acquired by marriage.

Mr. Bill has it exactly right when he says that these representatives of the Kings of Spain sought only to accrue gold and power. Their treatment of the natives of the Americas is well documented, They had no need to doff their helmets to Attila the Hun nor to Genghis Kahn. They killed with equally savage abandoned and no one in Europe found anything wrong in their behavior.

The priest, now that is an entirely different story. They came not for riches, although many were swayed, no they came to convert the savages. What they found absolutely amazed them. They found cities much larger than any in Europe with pharmacy’s that were much more extensive and well stock so much so that one wrote home to explain that there was no need to send medical supplies with the fleets because what they found here was superior to that available anywhere in civilized Spain.

They found books and a calendars which they could not read. They also found religious teachings and knowledge of the stars that threatened them to the degree that much of this knowledge was either destroyed or sent back to Spain to be hidden in caves.

Never, in recorded history has a so advanced civilization been so thoroughly obliterated. It is only recently that these non-monetary treasures been opened to scholars.

Basically, the same thing occurred when our ancestors destroyed much of the Indian cultures of North America. Nothing new there except that we didn’t send gold or writings back to our mother countries.

Now to the Indians of Baja –but wait one minute while I back up—These backward Indians of all the America’s did contribute these minor foodstuffs to the rest of the world. Potatoes, Tomatoes (remember those advanced folks in Europe thought it was a poison until someone explained that it had a very lethal reaction with placed in pewter or lead based ware), Chili Peppers, Peanuts, Chocolate. Tobacco, Vanilla, Corn, Avocados, and many more.

The year was 1533 or there about when Cortez stumbled into the Sea of Cortez and found the natives harvesting pearls. It took the Spaniards a mere 150 years before they returned and attempted to set up a trading post in La Paz to take advantage of the pearl divers who had been diving in the area for years to acquire pearls—for what this is not a activity that subsistence people engage. Most folks believe that that these natives had to be shocked at the sight of the lumbering Galleons when they pulled into La Paz—not in the least they had been trading and interacting with Dutch and English pirates for over 50 years. Other sources, including the pirates described the Guaycura Indians as being taller, more robust and fairer in skin than the northern tribes. Other explorers described them as the most physically attractive Indians in the New World. The Jesuit priests were far less kind and it is their words and it is those that most have relied on to seek an understanding of these long dead people.

These folks lived in an area that required no clothing and the sea provided them with a bounty there for the taking. They did n=have a skimpy form of clothing. They had reed boats, fished with hook and line as well as with nets. They used harpoons and tridents and harvested nutria (sea otter) from the sea. They also used nutria skins to store various food stuffs for long periods of time. These savages also used traps and a form of poison to take fish fro the quiet lagoons. The people of San Ignacio still employ these tactics.

They also had boomerangs, bows, axes, stone arrowheads and stone pipes and they harvested tobacco to be used in the pipes. According to a Jesuit priest (Consag,1751) they also had wooden tablets—‘inscribed’ that were placed in front of crude idols for some form of service (religious?). Very few of these tablets have been found because the priests took it as their duty to search them out and destroy them.

Indian healers have been at work in Mexico since long before Cortez The list of herbs that these men and women still use today is almost endless but I will point out just one—Daminana which is the basis for a potent drink and still served in the Cabo area. One of its original functions was to increase the potential for procreation.

Now let’s compare these savages with our modern day ex-pats and I believe that you will see some of the same attitudes and behaviors……..

Look at the condition of the ex-pats torn and worn (almost out) shirts and shirts and their bare feet, consider the fact they take much of their sustenance from the sea, that many of them fornicate almost at the drop of a hat (if they are wearing one) and that they are rather shiftless and that many of them have a fondness for strong spirits. (am I in trouble now?)

So! I believe that it is the environment that determines mans willingness to expend his limited energies and that if he is relatively comfortable he will not waste his energy on ‘work’. Why else are the gringos drawn in ever increasing numbers to this paradise where there is (still) little need for work

My three cents which amounts to ‘my’ finding that everyone is somewhat correct in their positions here. I find the Native American approach has much to recommend it to others who are seeking a less stressful life and one that is much more attuned to nature.

Come on Lee—you can say it far better then me.

DENNIS - 6-10-2007 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie
Come on Lee—you can say it far better then me.

I don't know about that, Bernie. You said it well.
Thanks.

Gnome-ad - 6-10-2007 at 06:31 PM

BIG THANKS!!

Baja Bernie ~

Thank you so much for your addition to this thread. I have loved it, as you can probably tell, and now I love it even more! :yes:

Your knowledge of history and intelligent insights are educational and of course beautifully expressed. You piqued my inexperienced nomad interest and now I'd love to hear more from bajalera and something from Lee as well. If they can add more to this growing wealth of caring and sharing information I'm sure many nomads would love it.
:bounce:

Baja Bernie - 6-10-2007 at 07:11 PM

Sorry, I lead you astray they are one and the same and she is one smart and tough lady. She served in our armed forces in WWII and I like that because I like to see one or two folks older than me hanging around--if you know what I mean.

She wrote a chapter in my last book, "Think you know Baja"....and it was a real crack up.......I had six or seven guest authors from this board.........I picked them because each in their own way provided a window into the soul of Baja that was unique.

By the way, welcome!

dr650 - 6-10-2007 at 07:31 PM

Gnome-ad ... not psychic. But bless their pointed little heads, anyway.

Bernie and Bahiamia ... thank you for the wonderful stories and quotes with much needed wisdom. So much to learn.

Mr. Bill ... How much invectiveness or offense does the word "savages" contain? Just a little, or just enough?

... I'll be your huckleberry, mo chara.

Murphy

I just re-read this entire post and----

Baja Bernie - 6-10-2007 at 08:43 PM

I have to confess that I was shocked when I re-read my post and found my incomplete thoughts which seemed to jump off the page at me. Seldom have I allowed so many errors to see the light of day---I thank all who read it for not throwing them in my face.

One other thing I noticed that had escaped my attention before and that was Gnome-ad comment about her new avatar as being 'my art' was that possessiveness of someone elses art or was it a definitive declaration of ones own work.

Just curious.

Iflyfish,

I think you would really enjoy this 'novel' by James Alexander Thom, "The Long Knife" the story of George Rogers Clark whom the Indians called Long Knife...........Thom also wrote 'The Red Heart" Really well researched and well written. The Long Knife was one of those 500 page books that zoomed by in one setting. And then had to be read again and more slowly.

A DECLARATION OF ONE'S OWN WORK

amir - 6-10-2007 at 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

One other thing I noticed that had escaped my attention before and that was Gnome-ad comment about her new avatar as being 'my art' was that possessiveness of someone elses art or was it a definitive declaration of ones own work. Just curious.

Gnome-ad's avatar is one of her original acrylic paintings scanned and formatted to fit this screen. She also designed and executed my skeleton avatar / logo. It's one of her many artisitc and literary talents.

I'm enjoying everybody's posts in this thread. --Amir

[Edited on 6-11-2007 by amir]

Iflyfish - 6-11-2007 at 12:11 AM

Baja Bernie

Thanks for the recommendations for books. I am always looking for a good read.

Iflyfish