BajaNomad - Greater Mexican Immigrations Is a must

Greater Mexican Immigrations Is a must

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Al G - 5-31-2007 at 05:43 PM

The best read I can find, for our need for legal Mexican Immigration and much more of it

Originally written for CEO's WORTH TEN MINUTES PER DAY TO READ:

Herb Meyer served during the Reagan administration as special assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence and Vice Chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council. In these positions, he managed
production of the U.S. National Intelligence Estimates and other top-secret projections for the President and his national security advisers.
Meyer is widely credited with being the first senior U.S. Government official to forecast the Soviet Union's collapse, for which he later was awarded the U.S. National Intelligence Distinguished Service Medal, the intelligence community's highest honor. Formerly an associate editor of FORTUNE, he is also the author of
several books.
HERBERT MEYER FOUR MAJOR TRANSFORMATIONS
Currently, there are four major transformations that are shaping political, ec onomic and world events. These
transformations have profound implications for American business owners, our culture and our way of life.
1. The War in Iraq
There are three major monotheistic religions in the world: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

In the 16th century, Judaism and Christianity reconciled with the modern world. The rabbis, priests and
scholars found a way to settle up and pave the way forward. Religion remained at the center of life, church and state became separate. Rule of law, idea of economic liberty, individual rights, human Rights-all these are defining points of modern Western civilization. These concepts started with the Greeks but didn't take
off until the 15th and 16th century when Judaism and Christianity found a way to reconcile with the modern world. When that happened, it unleashed the scientific revolution and the greatest outpouring of art, literature and music the world has ever known.
Islam, which developed in the 7th century, counts millions of Moslems around the world who are normal people. However, there is a radical streak within Islam. When the radicals are in charge, Islam&nbs p;attacks Western civilization. Islam first attacked Western civilization in the 7th century, and later in the 16th and 17th centuries. By 1683, the Moslems (Turks from the Ottoman Empire) were literally at the gates of Vienna. It was in Vienna that the climatic battle between Islam and Western civilization took place. The West won and went forward. Islam lost and went backward. Interestingly, the date of that battle was September 11. Since them, Islam has not found a way to reconcile with the modern world.
Today, terrorism is the third attack on Western civilization by radical Islam. To deal with terrorism, the U.S. is doing two things. First, units of our armed forces are in 30 countries around the world hunting down terrorist groups and dealing with them. This gets very little publicity. Second we are taking military action in Afghanistan and Iraq. These are covered relentless ly by the media. People can argue about whether the war
in Iraq is right or wrong. However, the underlying strategy behind the war is to use our military to remove the radicals from power and give the moderates a chance. Our hope is that, over time, the moderates will find a
way to bring Islam forward into the 21st century. That's what our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is all about.
The lesson of 9/11 is that we live in a world where a small number of people can kill a large number of people very quickly. They can use airplanes, bombs, anthrax, chemical weapons or dirty bombs. Even with a first-rate intelligence service (which the U.S. does not have), you can't stop every attack. That means our tolerance for political horseplay has dropped to zero. No longer will we play games with terrorists or weapons of mass destructions.
Most of the instability and horseplay is coming from the Middle East. That's why we have thought that if we
could knock out the radicals and give the moderates a chance to hold power, they might find a way to reconcile Islam with the modern world. So when looking at Afghanistan or Iraq, it's important to look for any
signs that they are modernizing. For example, women being brought into the workforce and colleges in Afghanistan is good. The Iraqis stumbling toward a constitution is good. People can argue about what the U.S. is doing and how we're doing it, but anything that suggests Islam is finding its way forward is good.
2. The Emergence of China
In the last 20 years, China has moved 250 million people from the farms and villages into the cities. Their plan is to move another 300 million in the next 20 years. When you put that many people into the cities, you have to find work for them. That's why China is addicted to manufac turing; they have to put all the relocated people to work. When we decide to manufacture something in the U.S., it's based on market needs and
the opportunity to make a profit. In China, they make the decision because they want the jobs, which is a very different calculation.
While China is addicted to manufacturing, Americans are addicted to low prices. As a result, a unique kind of economic codependency has developed between the two countries. If we ever stop buying from China, they will explode politically. If China stops selling to us, our economy will take a huge hit because prices will jump. We are subsidizing their economic development; they are subsidizing our economic growth.
Because of their huge growth in manufacturing, China is hungry for raw materials, which drives prices up worldwide. China is also thirsty for oil, which is one reason oil is now at $60 a barrel. By 2020, China will
produce more cars than the U.S. China is also buying its way into the oil infrastructure around the world. They are doing it in the open market and paying fair market prices, but millions of barrels of oil that would have gone to the U.S. are now going to China. China's quest to assure it has the oil it needs to fuel its economy is a major factor in world politics and economics. We have our Navy fleets protecting the sea
lines, specifically the ability to get the tankers through. It won't be long before the Chinese have an aircraft carrier sitting in the Persian Gulf as well. The question is, will their aircraft carrier be pointing in the same direction as ours or against us?
3. Shifting Demographics of Western Civilization
Most countries in the Western world have stopped breeding. For a civilization obsessed with sex, this is remarkable. Maintaining a steady population requires a birth rate of 2.1. In Western Europe, the birth rate
currently stands at 1.5, or 30 percent below replacement. In 30 years there will be 70 to 80 million fewer Europeans than there are today. The current birth rate in Germany is 1.3. Italy and Spain are even lower at 1.2. At that rate, the working age population declines by 30 percent in 20 years, which has a huge impact on the economy.
When you don't have young workers to replace the older ones, you have to import them. The European countries are currently importing Moslems. Today, the Moslems comprise 10 percent of France and Germany, and the percentage is rising rapidly because they have higher birthrates. However, the Moslem
populations are not being integrated into the cultures of their host countries, which is a political catastrophe. One reason Germany and France don't suppo rt the Iraq war is they fear their Moslem populations will explode on them. By 2020, more than half of all births in the Netherlands will be non-European.
The huge design flaw in the post-modern secular state is that you need a traditional religious society birth rate to sustain it. The Europeans simply don't wish to have children, so they are dying.
In Japan, the birthrate is 1.3. As a result, Japan will lose up to 60 million people over the next 30 years. Because Japan has a very different society than Europe, they refuse to import workers. Instead, they are
just shutting down. Japan has already closed 2000 schools, and is closing them down at the rate of 300 per year. Japan is also aging very rapidly. By 2020, one out of every five Japanese will be at least 70 years old. Nobody has any idea about how to run an economy with those demographics. Europe and Japan, which comprise two of the world's major economic engines, aren't merely in recession, they're shutting down.
This will have a huge impact on the world economy, and it is already beginning to happen. Why are the birthrates so low? There is a direct correlation between abandonment of traditional religious society and a drop in birth rate, and Christianity in Europe is becoming irrelevant. The second reason is economic. When the birth rate drops below replacement, the population ages. With fewer working people to support more retired people, it puts a crushing tax burden on the smaller group of working age people. As a result, young people delay marriage and having a family. Once this trend starts, the downward spiral only gets worse. These countries have abandoned all the traditions they formerly held in regards to having families and raising children.
The U.S. birth rate is 2.0, just below replacement. We have an increase in population because of migration. When broken down by ethnicity, the Anglo birth rate is 1.6 (same as France) while the Hispanic birth rate is
2.7. In the U.S., the baby boomers are starting to retire in massive numbers. This will push the elder dependency ratio from 19 to 38 over the next 10 to 15 years. This is not as bad as Europe, but still represents the same kind of trend.
Western civilization seems to have forgotten what every primitive society understands-you need kids to have a healthy society. Children are huge consumers. Then they grow up to become taxpayers. That's how a
society works, but the post-modern secular state seems to have forgotten that.If U.S. birth rates of the past 20 to 30 years had been the same as post-World War II, there would be no Social Security or Medicare
problems.
The world's most effective birth contr ol device is money. As society creates a middle class and women move into the workforce, birth rates drop. Having large families is incompatible with middle class living. The quickest way to drop the birth rate is through rapid economic development. After World War II, the U.S. instituted a $600 tax credit per child. The idea was to enable mom and dad to have four children without
being troubled by taxes. This led to a baby boom of 22 million kids, which was a huge consumer market that turned into a huge tax base. However, to match that incentive in today's dollars would cost $12,000 per child.
China and India do not have declining populations. However, in both countries, there is a preference for boys over girls, and we now have the technology to know which is which before they are born. In China and India, many families are aborting the girls. As a result, in each of these&n bsp;countries there are 70 million boys growing up who will never find wives. When left alone, nature produces 103 boys for every 100 girls. In some provinces, however, the ratio is 128 boys to every 100 girls. The birth rate in Russia is so low that by 2050 their population will be smaller than that of Yemen. Russia has one-sixth of the earth's land surface and much of its oil. You can't control that much area with such a small population. Immediately to the south, you have China with 70 million unmarried men are a real potential nightmare scenario for Russia.

4. Restructuring of American Business
The fourth major transformation involves a fundamental restructuring of American business. Today's business environment is very complex and competitive. To succeed, you have to be the best, which means having the highest quality and lowest cost. Whatever your price point, you must have the best quality and lowest price. To be the best, you have to concentrate on one thing. You can't be all things to all people and be the best.

A generation ago, IBM used to make every part of their computer. Now Intel makes the chips, Microsoft makes the software, and someone else makes the modems, hard drives, monitors, etc. IBM even out sources their call center. Because IBM has all these companies supplying goods and services cheaper
and better than they could do it themselves, they can make a better computer at a lower cost. This is called a fracturing of business. When one company can make a better product by relying on others to perform
functions the business used to do itself, it creates a complex pyramid of companies that serve and support each other.
This fracturing of American business is now in its second generation. The companies who supply IBM are now doing the same thing-outsourcing many of their core services and production process. As a result, they can make cheaper, better products. Over time, th is pyramid continues to get bigger and bigger. Just when you think it can't fracture again, it does. Even very small businesses can have a large pyramid of corporate entities that perform many of its important functions. One aspect of this trend is that companies end up with fewer employees and more independent contractors.
This trend has also created two new words in > business: integrator and complementor. At the top of the pyramid, IBM is the integrator. As you go down the pyramid, Microsoft, Intel and the other companies that
support IBM are the complementors. However, each of the complementors is itself an integrator for the complementors underneath it. This has several implications, the first of which is that we are now getting false readings on the economy. People who used to be employees are now independent contractors launching their own businesses. There are many peo ple working whose work is not listed as a job. As a result, the economy is perking along better than the numbers are telling us.
Outsourcing also confused the numbers. Suppose a company like General Motors decides to outsource all its employee cafeteria functions to Marriott (which it did). It lays off hundreds of cafeteria workers, who then get hired right back by Marriott. The only thing that has changed is that these people work for Marriott rather than GM. Yet, the headlines will scream that America has lost more manufacturing jobs. All that really happened is that these workers are now reclassified as service workers. So the old way of counting jobs contributes to false economic readings. As yet, we haven't figured out how to make the numbers catch up with the changing realities of the business world.
Another implication of this massive restructuring is that because companies are getting rid of units and people that used to work for them, the entity is smaller. As the companies get smaller and more efficient, revenues are going down but profits are going up. As a result, the old notion that revenues are up and we're doing great isn't always the case anymore. Companies are getting smaller but are becoming more efficient and profitable in the process.
IMPLICATIONS OF THE FOUR TRANSFORMATIONS
1. The War in Iraq
In some ways, the war is going well. Afghanistan and Iraq have the beginnings of a modern government, which is a huge step forward. The Saudis are starting to talk about some good things, while Egypt and Lebanon are beginning to move in a good direction.
A series of revolutions have taken place in countries like Ukraine and Georgia. There will be more of these revolutions for an interesting reason. In every revolution, there comes a point where the dictator turns to
the general and says, "Fire into the crowd." If the general fires into the crowd, it stops the revolution. If the general says "No", the revolution continues. Increasingly, the generals are saying "No" because their kids are in the crowd.
Thanks to TV and the Internet, the average 18-year old outside the U.S. is very savvy about what is going on in the world, especially in terms of popular culture. There is a huge global consciousness, and young people
around the world want to be a part of it. It is increasingly apparent to them that the miserable government where they live is the only thing standing in their way. More and more, it is the well-educated kids, the
children of the generals and the elite, who are leading the revolutions.
At the same time, not all is well with the war. The level of violence in Iraq is much worse and doesn't appear to be impro ving. It's possible that we're asking too much of Islam all at one time. We're trying to jolt them
from the 7th century to the 21st century all at once, which may be further than they can go. They might make it and they might not. Nobody knows for sure. The point is, we don't know how the war will turn out. Anyone who says they know is just guessing.
The real place to watch is Iran. If they actually obtain nuclear weapons it will be a terrible situation. There are two ways to deal with it. The first is a military strike, which will be very difficult. The Iranians have dispersed their nuclear development facilities and put them underground. The U.S. has nuclear weapons that can go under the earth and take out those facilities, but we don't want to do that. The other way is to separate the radical mullahs from the government, which is the most likely course of action.
Seventy percent of the Iranian population is under 30. They are Moslem but not Arab. They are mostly pro-Western. Many experts think the U.S. should have dealt with Iran before going to war with Iraq. The problem isn't so much the weapons, it's the people who control them. If Iran has a moderate government, the weapons become less of a concern.>
We don't know if we will win the war in Iraq. What we're looking for is any indicator that Islam is moving into the 21st century and stabilizing.
2. China
It may be that pushing 500 million people from farms and villages into cities is too much too soon. Although it gets almost no publicity, China is experiencing hundreds of demonstrations around the country, which is
unprecedented. These are not students in Tiananmen Square. These are average citizens who are angry with the government for building chemical plants and polluting the water th ey drink and the air they breathe.
The Chinese are a smart and industrious people. They may be able to pull it off and become a very successful economic and military superpower. If so, we will have to learn to live with it. If they want to share the responsibility of keeping the world's oil lanes open, that's a good thing.
They currently have eight new nuclear electric power generators under way and 45 on the books to build. Soon, they will leave the U.S. way behind in their ability to generate nuclear power.
What can go wrong with China? For one, you can't move 500 million people into the cities without major problems. Two, China really wants Taiwan, not so much for economic reasons, they just want it. The Chinese know that their system of communism can't survive much longer in the 21st century. The last thing they want to do before they morph into some sort of more capi talistic government is to take over Taiwan.
We may wake up one morning and find they have launched an attack on Taiwan. If so, it will be a mess, both economically and militarily. The U.S. has committed to the military defense of Taiwan. If China attacks Taiwan, will we really go to war against them? If the Chinese generals believe the answer is no, they may attack. If we don't defend Taiwan, every treaty the U.S. has will be worthless. Hopefully, China won't do
anything stupid.
3. Demographics
Europe and Japan are dying because their populations are aging and shrinking. These trends can be reversed if the young people start breeding. However, the birth rates in these areas are so low it will take two
generations to turn things around. No economic model exists that permits 50 years to turn things around. Some countries are beginning to offer incentives for people to have bigger families. For example, Italy is
offering tax breaks for having children. However, it's a lifestyle issue versus a tiny amount of money. Europeans aren't willing to give up their comfortable lifestyles in order to have more children.
In general, everyone in Europe just wants it to last a while longer. Europeans have a real talent for living. They don't want to work very hard. The average European worker gets 400 more hours of vacation time per
year than Americans. They don't want to work and they don't want to make any of the changes needed to revive their economies.
The summer after 9/11, France lost 15,000 people in a heat wave. In August, the country basically shuts down when everyone goes on vacation. That year, a severe heat wave struck and 15,000 elderly people
living in nursing homes and hospitals died. Their children didn't even leave the beaches to come bac k and take care of the bodies. Institutions had to scramble to find enough refrigeration units to hold the bodies until
people came to claim them.
This loss of life was five times bigger than 9/11 in America, yet it didn't trigger any change in French society. When birth rates are so low, it creates a tremendous tax burden on the young. Under those circumstances,
keeping mom and dad alive is not an attractive option. That's why euthanasia is becoming so popular in most European countries. The only country that doesn't permit (and even encourage) euthanasia is Germany, because of all the baggage from World War II.
The European economy is beginning to fracture. Countries like Italy are starting to talk about pulling out of the European Union because it is killing them. When things get bad economically in Europe, they tend to
get very nasty politically. The canary in the mine is anti-Semitism. When it goes up, it means trouble is coming. Current levels of anti-Semitism are higher than ever. Germany won't launch another war, but Europe will likely get shabbier, more dangerous and less pleasant to live in.
Japan has a birth rate of 1.3 and has no intention of bringing in immigrants. By 2020, one out of every five Japanese will be 70 years old. Property values in Japan have dropped every year for the past 14 years. The
country is simply shutting down.
In the U.S. we also have an aging population. Boomers are starting to retire at a massive rate. These retirements will have several major impacts:

Possible massive sell-off of large four-bedroom houses and a movement to condos.

An enormous drain on the treasury. Boomers vote, and they want their benefits, even if it means putting a crushing tax burden on their kids to get them. Social Security will be a huge problem. As this generation ages, it will start to drain the system. We are the only country in the world where there are no age limits on medical procedures. An enormous drain on the health care system. This will also increase the tax burden on the young, which will cause them to delay marriage and having families, which will drive down the birth rate even further.
Although scary, these demographics also present enormous opportunities for products and services tailored to aging populations. There will be tremendous demand for caring for older people, especially those who
don't need nursing homes but need some level of care. Some people will have a business where they take care of three or four people in t heir homes. The demand for that type of service and for products to physically care for aging people will be huge.
Make sure the demographics of your business are attuned to where the action is. For example, you don't want to be a baby food company in Europe or Japan. Demographics are much underrated as an indicator of where the opportunities are. Businesses need customers. Go where the customers are.
4. Restructuring of American Business
The restructuring of American business means we are coming to the end of the age of the mostly employer and employee. With all this fracturing of businesses into different and smaller units, employers can't guarantee jobs anymore because they don't know what their companies will look like next year. Many are on their way to becoming independent contractors. The new workforce contract will be, a "Show up at the my
office five days a week and do wha t I want you to do, but you handle your own insurance, benefits, health care and everything else."
Husbands and wives are becoming economic units. They take different jobs and work different shifts depending on where they are in their careers and families. They make tradeoffs to put together a compensation package to take care of the family. This used to happen only with highly educated
professionals with high incomes. Now it is happening at the level of the factory floor worker. Couples at all levels are designing their compensation packages based on their individual needs. The only way this can work is if everything is portable and flexible, which requires a huge shift in the American economy.
The U.S. is in the process of building the world's first 21st century model economy. The only other countries doing this are U.K. and Australia. The model is fast, flexible, highly productive and& nbsp;unstable in that it is always fracturing and re-fracturing. This will increase the economic gap between the U.S. and everybody else, especially Europe and Japan.
At the same time, the military gap is increasing. Other than China, we are the only country that is continuing to put money into their military. Plus, we are the only military getting on-the-ground military experience
through our war in Iraq. We know which high-tech weapons are working and which ones aren't. There is almost no one who can take us on economically or militarily. There has never been a superpower in this
position before.
On the one hand, this makes the U.S. a magnet for bright and ambitious people. It also makes us a target. We are becoming one of the last holdouts of the traditional Judeo-Christian culture. There is no better place in the world to be in business and raise children. The U.S. is by far the best place to have an idea, form a business and put it into the marketplace. We take it for granted, but it isn't as available in other countries of the world.
Ultimately, it's an issue of culture. The only people who can hurt us are ourselves, by losing our culture. If we give up our Judeo-Christian culture, we become just like the Europeans. The culture war is the whole ball game. If we lose it, there isn't another America to pull us out.

Mexitron - 5-31-2007 at 06:02 PM

Interesting points!

Heh...and I used to refer to my workers as my kids...

DENNIS - 5-31-2007 at 06:33 PM

Al G ------

Jeezo...... I'll bet your fingers are worn to a frazzle after typing all that stuff.

Just kidden'.

Thanks for the informative post. I know this is one of your serious concerns.

Al G - 5-31-2007 at 07:12 PM

The population of this country is 300
million.

160 million are retired.

That leaves 140 million to do the work.

There are 85 million in school.

Which leaves 55 million to do the work.

Of this there are 23 million employed by the
federal government.

Leaving 27 million to do the work.

2.8 million are in the armed forces preoccupied
with killing Osama Bin-Laden.

Which leaves 24.2 million to do the work.

Take from that total the 13.4 million people who
work for state and city governments. And that leaves 22.8 million to do the
work.

At any given time there are 188,000 people in
hospitals.

Leaving 13,212,000 to do the work.

Now, there are 1,211,996 people in prisons.

That leaves 12,000,002 to do the work

You and I are sitting on our ass so that leaves

12,000,000 Mexicanos to do the work

And there you are,

The reason we need legal immigrations

[Edited on 6-1-2007 by Al G]

CaboRon - 6-5-2007 at 09:40 AM

Al G, Enjoyed your tounge in cheek posting. Or was it? CaboRon :tumble:

toneart - 6-5-2007 at 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Al G, Enjoyed your tounge in cheek posting. Or was it? CaboRon :tumble:

No, I doubt whether Al's posting was "tongue in cheek".

There is a lot to ponder in the article:
The credentials of the author, Herb Meyer, certainly distinguishes his political philosophy. We know where he stands in the political arena. I will suspend judgement here for the sake of objectivity. Mr. Meyer gives a strong perspective in his analyzation of the "four major transformations", and the history leading up to the present state of the world.

Al's area of concentration, gleaned from Mr. Meyer's essay, is the need for immigrant workers in The United States. Al's numbers are compelling. I agree with his premise that we need the workers. This is the only idea that George Bush has ever espoused that I agree with.

Where I disagree is in the underlying need for the workers. Mr. Meyer's, Mr. Bush's and (I presume) Mr. Al G's reasons are to provide corporations with cheap labor. My observation is that we need immigrant laborers to fill the hard, menial, unskilled jobs that go unwanted by citizens of the United States, i.e. in agriculture and construction.

Have you ever tried to find people, even high school kids, willing to do weed whacking, ditch digging or heavy lifting? Ever tried to find workers, independent of agencies who gather a work pool and mark up the costs? In cities you can go to street corners known as locations where illegal aliens hang out looking for work. But they have broken the law and so will you if you hire them.

There are no easy solutions but I think a Guest Worker Program is an idea that is on the right track. However, it is ( as is the whole immigration bill) fraught with potential problems. How would it be administrated and how would it be controlled?

There is another problem which is already occurring: Greed! It is evident in the construction industry and it is creeping into the corporate world. Contractors now hire cheap, and often illegal alien labor, to fill skilled positions because it cuts their costs. This results in a shoddy and often, unsafe product. Are the cost savings passed on to the consumer? No! In fact we, the consumer, are getting screwed with higher costs and a product of poorer quality.

To parrot the Reagan/Bush philosophy, this is all well and good. The corporations make bigger profits, pay few, if any, taxes and the benefits will trickle down to to you/me/the little guy. So....how is it working out for you so far? :?:

CaboRon - 6-5-2007 at 12:18 PM

:mad:

NOTHING HAS EVER TRICKLED DOWN TO ME :mad:

Gnome-ad - 6-5-2007 at 12:34 PM

I didn't plan on spending so much time on-line this morning - got lots to do, but that was a very interesting article. Thanks for sharing. I agree with toneart's comments 100%. Thanks for writing that so I didn't have to.

All I have to say is I've been trickled on before and it never felt good. :no:

JESSE - 6-14-2007 at 06:00 PM

Glad to see at least a few smart post's like this one about illegal immigration, too bad there so few of them.

Mexitron - 6-14-2007 at 06:52 PM

I was cogitating on the idea in the article that fundamental religions are responsible for high birth rates; while that may be partly true in Mexico with the Pope's decrees, I think it may have as much to do with having more kids to work on the family farm. The Mexicans that I know who moved to the states have just one or two kids.

An anomaly would be China--no fundamental religion there, and the world's highest population(or is it India which has some fundamental sects but I don't know that the majority would generally be considered hard-core either). Both countries have lots of small family farms.

So I'm not sure that the articles premise about population/fundamental religions was the best conclusion.

JESSE - 6-14-2007 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
I was cogitating on the idea in the article that fundamental religions are responsible for high birth rates; while that may be partly true in Mexico with the Pope's decrees, I think it may have as much to do with having more kids to work on the family farm. The Mexicans that I know who moved to the states have just one or two kids.

An anomaly would be China--no fundamental religion there, and the world's highest population(or is it India which has some fundamental sects but I don't know that the majority would generally be considered hard-core either). Both countries have lots of small family farms.

So I'm not sure that the articles premise about population/fundamental religions was the best conclusion.

The population's annual growth rate of Mexico has been reduced from a 3.5% peak, in 1965 to 0.99% in 2005.

We sit here listening to some wine about immigration, but the numbers are very clear, in 50yrs, North America is going to have a very serious problem with its workforce.

Bajafun777 - 6-14-2007 at 09:10 PM

No we will not have an issue of lack of people in our force in 50 years, as we will continue to allow big companies to outsource their work products and then bring them back in at the high price to sell to us in the USA. A Guest Worker of some sorts is something that will be created no matter what but in what form is anyones guess. It's not an issue of legal immigration that has our Country in an uproar but uncontrolled illegal immigration. We need to put some teeth and sense into our immigration bill being dead and brought back to life over and over again. Every Country, repeat Every Country has a right to control its borders and set limits on immigration numbers allowed into its borders. Hopefully, our Washington elected officials will get it right in the some day near future and once it's done then we all as Americans must support it nd make it work. Later=========bajafun777

Crabbing about Immigration

MrBillM - 6-14-2007 at 10:07 PM

Two days back, there was a news segment intended to demonstrate the need for immigrant workers. Perhaps unintentionally it also demonstrated what some of us have been saying all along. It IS possible to have a guest worker program that satisfies the need for immigrant labor and ALSO allows the U.S. to maintain control of said labor force.

The story was about a Crab processor in New England who found it impossible to satisfy his labor requirements with U.S. workers. Instead, the vast majority of his labor force are Legal Seasonal Immigrants on H2B Visas making a decent wage. The employer maintains detailed records as required by the Government, including proof that he has attempted to hire U.S. workers without success. As a result, he is able to stay in business and the Immigrant workforce is tracked and pays all of the required taxes.

A win-win situation.

It CAN work.

Minnow - 6-15-2007 at 05:07 AM

Cheep labor, how about free labor. Here is what the bad contractors do here in Vegas.

Hire 15 guys out of the home depot parking lot to do the heavy lifting for landscaping in Gated communities. At the end of the day take them to the nearest Robertos tacos. Have them order whatever they want, then remember you forgot your wallet in the truck. Adios Amigos. :lol:

Lets see them get back into the golf course.

Think it doesn't happen?

Mexitron - 6-15-2007 at 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Two days back, there was a news segment intended to demonstrate the need for immigrant workers. Perhaps unintentionally it also demonstrated what some of us have been saying all along. It IS possible to have a guest worker program that satisfies the need for immigrant labor and ALSO allows the U.S. to maintain control of said labor force.

The story was about a Crab processor in New England who found it impossible to satisfy his labor requirements with U.S. workers. Instead, the vast majority of his labor force are Legal Seasonal Immigrants on H2B Visas making a decent wage. The employer maintains detailed records as required by the Government, including proof that he has attempted to hire U.S. workers without success. As a result, he is able to stay in business and the Immigrant workforce is tracked and pays all of the required taxes.

A win-win situation.

It CAN work.

I think that's the right idea...but it will require money, more migra, and high border walls for enforcement. Wonder what the Social Security tax situation would be under more controlled circumstances--we are benefitting from at least some of the illegals by their paying into SS and not getting anything back out of it.

Bajaboy - 6-15-2007 at 07:26 AM

Why can't we call it subsidized labor instead of cheap labor? That's basically what this is about. We say we want a free market system yet we don't let the forces play out. Without cheap labor, employers would have to pay prevailing market rates. What a concept...

Zac

Mexitron - 6-15-2007 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Why can't we call it subsidized labor instead of cheap labor? That's basically what this is about. We say we want a free market system yet we don't let the forces play out. Without cheap labor, employers would have to pay prevailing market rates. What a concept...

Zac

Well, hiring cheap labor is what free markets are doing right now. If you enforced the rules you would change the free market to within U.S. borders; and be prepared for a shock to the economy as it sorts itself out...labor prices will go up and there will be labor shortages further escalating costs. It would be interesting to see happen. The dirty little secret is that the government and corporations don't want the rules enforced...and maybe their partly right. I'm not sure our economy can go backwards to some good old days. I think most folks would be happy if there were a guest worker program(limiting the perceived or real burden of illegals) and that immigrants made more of an effort to learn English.

Speaking of free markets, if our ever-wondrous(slight sarcasm) economy ever slows down significantly causing mass unemployment, the immigration problem will probably solve itself.

Bajaboy - 6-15-2007 at 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

I agree with you completely. I just wish people would not tip toe around the real issues. If we went after the employer and enforced labor law, then we would not have such a draw for immigrants. And, without illegal immigration, wages would not be depressed.

I am not advocating one way or another just trying to clear up the water. Both sides of the equation need to be realistic about the solutions and consequences to their proposed actions.

Zac

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 12:03 PM

Hey ......

What happened to the freakin fence?
Is there going to be a fence or not?
All of our legislators need to be gassed along with everybody who keeps voting for them. What good are they?
They say, "You'll have a fence." We don't have any kind of a fence except around the ports of entry, put there to protect the Guardia of the great American joke, homeland security.
Where is our fence?
We need our fence.
We need to have laws passed which will enforce the laws already passed.
The most threatening terrorist agency we as Americans have to worry about is our own government. Where is our fence?

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 04:52 PM

Any answers?

Does anybody care?

Jesse...........Where is the fence? C'mon. You like this stuff.
Al G.............Where's the fence?
Mexitron..............Where's the efing fence?

If you heroe's of the status quo want to debate the propriety of illegal entry, why can't you give an instant to tell me where the fence is?
I've lost our fence.
Where is it?

Bajaboy - 6-15-2007 at 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Any answers?

Does anybody care?

Jesse...........Where is the fence? C'mon. You like this stuff.
Al G.............Where's the fence?
Mexitron..............Where's the efing fence?

If you heroe's of the status quo want to debate the propriety of illegal entry, why can't you give an instant to tell me where the fence is?
I've lost our fence.
Where is it?

Last I heard, Bush signed the law to extend the fence but failed to provide any money....

So, is the fence supposed to protect our border or deter illegal immigration? Either way, if you're for a fence, and I take it you are, are you suggesting that we put one on the northern border as well?

Again, just trying to hash out the details...

Zac

Al G - 6-15-2007 at 05:35 PM

Dennis...only a concept...we don't need a fence.
Take the couple billion or so we pay the enforcement agency's and give it to the Mexican Government....they can collect each year there is no illegal crossings. Institute a real guest worker program...with real... "free" (no penalty's) citizenship after 2-3 years. Control where they settle(not ganged up in slum areas). I will bet in ten years, there would be two country's free of these issues . A free integrated society with voting rights will get us past this embarrassment.

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 05:39 PM

Zac ---------

No. I'm not for a fence. I always thought it was an insane aproach to an answer.
What I am for is our government doing what it says it will do.
They said they would build a fence and, I want to see them do what they said they would do. Build a fence. Or, at least, make an effort.

As for "The Fence", I have my own ideas. It could be built as a three stand wire fence, and could be affective if it was built inside the line, maybe an eighth mile in. It would be ours and we could monitor both sides. We wouldn't have to worry about splitting the line. It would change from a scenario of, our side-your side. Both sides would be ours. If our fence was touched, a law was broken.
But, isn't that the way it is today with the virtual fence?
No. It,s virtual. It can't be seen.
Why do we have to go through this for respect?

Al G - 6-15-2007 at 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

No border needed there either...Mexicans need a border fence to keep our northern brother out of Baja... :lol:

[Edited on 6-16-2007 by Al G]

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 05:53 PM

Thanks Al ----

I forgot that I was down here enjoying life without being involved with their non-existant social services and free medical care.
Jeezo....... I have to keep in mind that, if I'm parked at the Ensenada WalMart, about to deliver a child, that I can't dial 911 and from that moment, you, as in you, get to pay for everything that happens.

I don't know Albert. I'm just getting fed up with all of it.

Im having a bad day. Sorry.

Mexitron - 6-15-2007 at 07:27 PM

Dennis--many people are in favor of putting up the fence, so the government is giving them lip service by passing bills and such. But they won't build the fence because it isn't within their economic ideals to do so. Are they acting in the best interest of the American people? I don't know.

DENNIS - 6-16-2007 at 06:08 AM

I can't think that BSing the American public is in their best interest.

bajalou - 6-16-2007 at 07:17 AM

Without them, who will do the work?

"The number of unemployed persons (6.8 million) and the unemployment rate
(4.5 percent) were unchanged in May. The jobless rate has ranged from 4.4 to
4.6 percent since September 2006."

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Now, lets see if I got this right - 15 million illegal workers, 6.8 million unemployed - looks to me like if we get rid of the illegals, put ALL the unemployed to work we still have 8.2 million jobs with no one to fill them. So now what??????? :?:

DENNIS - 6-16-2007 at 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
Without them, who will do the work?

Legal immigrants will do the work. If we still have a shortage of manpower, we bring in more legal immigrants. The supply will meet our demands, not the demands of a ragged south of the border economy.
Is that such a naive proposal that nobody wants to consider it?

JESSE - 6-16-2007 at 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
Without them, who will do the work?

It is naive, its naive to actually believe that people that already have harsh sentiments towards Mexicans (and theres plenty of millions of those), will just accept it if the goverment decides to import several million immigrants from Mexico every few years. You see, theres some very smart folks up in Washington, they know that this is a visceral issue, and people don't use their brains to decide if its right or wrong, they just go with what feels right. So IF what you say would to happen, it wouldnt change anything, because the discussion would just turn from "why are we letting in illegals?" to "So many Mexicans will ruin our way of life?"

I better get back to work in this ragged south of the border economy :lol:

DENNIS - 6-16-2007 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

It is naive, its naive to actually believe that people that already have harsh sentiments towards Mexicans (and theres plenty of millions of those), will just accept it if the goverment decides to import several million immigrants from Mexico every few years. You see, theres some very smart folks up in Washington, they know that this is a visceral issue, and people don't use their brains to decide if its right or wrong, they just go with what feels right. So IF what you say would to happen, it wouldnt change anything, because the discussion would just turn from "why are we letting in illegals?" to "So many Mexicans will ruin our way of life?"

Just about everything you said up there is ridiculous.
A work force which will fulfill a need is at the heart of the issue so, why would a viable solution upset anybody other than a card carrying, xenophobic bigot? Is that what you think of the people of the United States? Hateful, brainless, reactionaries? Living our lives on a visceral level? "It wouldn't change anything", you say. Well, Jesse, I think it would change a lot of things. For one, by having a controlled border, we would have self-respect and, that's important. We sure as hell arn't going to get much of that stuff from Mexico, are we.

"So many Mexicans will ruin our way of life". Jesse, if you had any idea of the depth of our apathy, you wouldn't have said that. The American people, as a group, won't even say that about real terrorists.

Jesse, the United States is a country. It's our home. There's a lot more to it than the Home Depot parking lot. We would like to think that we are in charge of our home and if we can help others in the process, that's good but, it has to be because we want to do it. Not because Mexico says we have to do it.

So Jesse, when you're done washing those dishes, take a short break and make a list of those "very smart folks up in Washington". It won't take long.

woody with a view - 6-16-2007 at 12:48 PM

i didn't wanna get into this but i'm bored so...seal the borders first!

then we can talk about letting people who break our laws have a chance at citizenship while folks here LEGALLY on any number of different VISAS will be forced to go home. how is that right?

why is our president so intent on ramming this bill down america's throat? something stinks!!!!

and before i'm labeled a xenophobe or a racist, my wife came from peru-LEGALLY. i'm all for resonable limits, but outright "paths" to citizenship and bringing your entire extended family? WOW! what is the rush to get this done???????

toneart - 6-16-2007 at 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I can't think that BSing the American public is in their best interest.

No, but it certainly works for the Government. :spingrin:

DENNIS

JESSE - 6-16-2007 at 04:27 PM

Quote:

All humans are visceral, thats why we vote into office people who are seriously flawed politicians, because all of us as a society wether we are from China or from Iceland, tend to go collectively with what we feel is right instead of what think is right. This is not about americans, but about human nature.

Quote:

"It wouldn't change anything", you say. Well, Jesse, I think it would change a lot of things. For one, by having a controlled border, we would have self-respect and, that's important. We sure as hell arn't going to get much of that stuff from Mexico, are we.

You don't have to convince me about that, if you listen to what i am saying, i am actually in agreement with your views. But i also know the United States has the means to close the border if it wants, why don't they? my only reasonable explanation is that they do it like this because they need it and know, that if the general population had a say in it, they would choose not to let enough immigrants in. The other choice, and the one i guess you feel is true, is that the goverment is screwing you for what ever reasons related to big business and other economic interests. Maybe i am naive, but i cannot accept this last choice.

Quote:

Jesse, the United States is a country. It's our home. There's a lot more to it than the Home Depot parking lot. We would like to think that we are in charge of our home and if we can help others in the process, that's good but, it has to be because we want to do it. Not because Mexico says we have to do it.

I agree with that 100% and think your nation has the right to do what ever it wants with its future. What i can't figure out is why so much anger?

Quote:

So Jesse, when you're done washing those dishes, take a short break and make a list of those "very smart folks up in Washington". It won't take long.

If the list truly is as short as you think, then illegal immigration is the least of our problems, and i refuse to believe your nation and mine have seen their best days and are in a sure path to hell.

oldhippie - 6-17-2007 at 06:33 AM

The argument that we need immigration to help pay for the boomer demographic spike moving through old age is a powerful one. It's relevant to the naturization process that must occur to solve the legal problems of millions of immigrants already living in the US. Let's get those folks paying taxes! I don't think there is a shortage of jobs.

As far as a trip to hell, we're 3/4 of the way through a detour taking us there and back. ETA back, January 2009.

oldhippie - 6-17-2007 at 06:36 AM

naturalization - naturally

Smoke and Mirrors

MrBillM - 6-17-2007 at 08:53 AM

The bottom line remains that the current immigration proposal in the Senate is a con job to take the issue out of the 2008 election debate. Even so, if I were betting serious money, I'd still bet against the legislation ever reaching the Bush desk. Despite whatever closed doors deals Harry Rex and company make, their plans will likely suffer from bad timing.

Passing Their version just prior to the Summer Break means that there will be extensive analysis and debate prior to the measure ever reaching the House where it already faces substantial opposition. Even those supporting the bill, think it is doubtful it would pass the House without substantial modification which will result in a drawn out debate while the bill is subject to the House-Senate Conference committee.

Unless Congress actually backs up their promises on enforcement triggers and committed funding, I don't see the opposition backing off.
--------------------------------------------

Not having seen the statistical evidence regarding the Millions of illegal immigrants in the U.S. who flooded across the Canadian Border, I'm not sure why anyone would think we need to secure that border. Apparently some have received said info, probably while they were not wearing their Aluminum hats.

However, closing that border would have the beneficial effect of keeping Canadians out of the U.S. A good thing in any case.

woody with a view - 6-17-2007 at 08:58 AM

Quote:

Apparently some have received said info, probably while they were not wearing their Aluminum hats.

Cypress - 6-17-2007 at 10:41 AM

I'm getting mental pictures of the "Oklahoma Land Rush".

No restrictions if you're heading north. :?:

Southbound? :?:

Check out the FM3 qualifications. :tumble:

EARLY MORNING PICTURE FROM A LOS ANGELES HOME DEPOT

bancoduo - 6-18-2007 at 04:18 PM

Mexitron - 6-18-2007 at 07:27 PM

:lol:

Crusoe - 6-18-2007 at 07:46 PM

Bancoduo..... Great shot.....Could be a shot of the new Loreto "skyline"..... all of those little bodies will maybe aspire to life as a golfer/kayaker types. "Just fly in and your worries are over mate"And, the new condo-owners will all have children.......and lots of em!! Just like the masses in this photo!! Very scary.!!!!!! Walk around some slums in CALCUTA and see for yourserlf.The launching ramp is really small potatoes. Its nice to see what you have before its gone.++C++

rpleger - 6-19-2007 at 07:23 AM

:lol:

toneart - 6-19-2007 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

Quote:

Apparently some have received said info, probably while they were not wearing their Aluminum hats.

I just thought I would make an aluminum foil hat with 1' antenna. Now I am really freaked out. I am suddenly reading all the posts on the BajaNomad with a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e clarity. This has never happened before, and probably would not have been possible without my new sombrero metal. :spingrin:

woody with a view - 6-19-2007 at 12:15 PM

A Somali arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States. He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says..... Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this country, giving me housing, food stamps, FREE medical care and free education!" The passer-by says.... "You are mistaken, I am Mexican".

The man goes on and encounters another passer-by. "Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America!"
The person says.... "I no American, I Vietnamese".

The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says..... "Thank you for the
wonderful America!" That person puts up his hand and says "I am from Middle East, I am not an American!"

He finally sees a nice lady and asks, "Are you an American?" She says, "No, I am from Russia!" Puzzled, he asks her...... "Where are all the Americans?"

The Russian lady checks her watch and says.... "Probably at
work!"

:lol:

DENNIS - 6-19-2007 at 12:30 PM

AHHHH Woody ----

That was a gem. Thanks.

jerry - 6-19-2007 at 09:06 PM

to true to be good woody but i had to crack up anyway

check this out. WHY DO WE NEED A FENCE?

woody with a view - 6-20-2007 at 12:34 PM

Illegals light border fires to sidetrack U.S. agents

By Jerry Seper
June 19, 2007

THE WASHINGTON TIMES
U.S. Border Patrol agents seeking to secure the nation's border in some of the country's most pristine national forests are being targeted by illegal aliens, who are using intentionally set fires to burn agents out of observation posts and patrol routes.

The wildfires have destroyed valuable natural and cultural resources in the National Forest System and pose an ongoing threat to visitors, residents and responding firefighters, according to federal law-enforcement authorities and others.

In the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, with 60 miles of land along the U.S.-Mexico border, U.S. Forest Service firefighters sent in to battle fires or clear wild-land fire areas are required to be escorted by armed law-enforcement officers.

Armed smugglers of aliens and drugs have walked through the middle of active firefighting operations, the authorities said.

The Border Patrol"s Tucson, Ariz., sector, which encompasses most of the Coronado National Forest, has the highest incidence of cross-border violators in the nation. Nearly 500,000 illegal aliens were apprehended last year — more than 30,000 a month. In addition, nearly 100,000 pounds of marijuana, with a street value of $200 million, was seized as it was hauled through the Coronado National Forest.

Last month, the Border Patrol — in a single operation targeting illegal aliens causing what Forest Service officials called "significant damage" to the Coronado National Forest — apprehended more than 300 illegals along just a three-mile section of U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona and confiscated 600 pounds of marijuana in a 10-day period.

At least five fires were set below a Border Patrol observation post during the operation in an effort to burn the agents out, according to a Forest Service report. The fires were extinguished, and no one was arrested.

Wildfires are being set by alien and drug smugglers, authorities said, to create a diversion in an attempt to gain undetected access across the border. The fires correspond to a dramatic rise in assaults against Border Patrol agents — up more than 100 percent over last year.

DENNIS - 6-20-2007 at 12:43 PM

It's past the fence stage. What would be more practical is a moat. A wide one, using water that runs into the various gulfs for fire fighting and irrigation and water sports and other stuff. It could be stocked with fish and other water loveing critters.

bajalou - 6-20-2007 at 12:47 PM

Sure DENNIS, run a pipeline up from Loreto Bay to supply the water.

MONTEBELLO HS

bancoduo - 6-21-2007 at 10:59 AM

Cypress - 6-21-2007 at 11:12 AM

Guess it all boils down to the fact that most of our fellow Gringos are too lazy to get off their butts, put in a days work and sweat a little.

DENNIS - 6-21-2007 at 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Guess it all boils down to the fact that most of our fellow Gringos are too lazy to get off their butts, put in a days work and sweat a little.

That's crap. What are ten million Americans doing while the immigrant works? Most everybody is employed, not counting the social garbage which the US government pays for not working. Our welfare system is as much, or more, to blame than employers or borders or anything else. Stop unwarrented welfare and immigration would find it's own level.

bancoduo - 6-21-2007 at 02:26 PM

I'm confused

Dave - 6-21-2007 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bancoduo

I thought MEChA admired N-zis.

SMELL THE ROSE'S

bancoduo - 6-21-2007 at 03:35 PM

http://www.americanpatrol.com/MECHA/MEChAindex.html :cool:

Cypress - 6-21-2007 at 03:55 PM

Dennis, Have lived in the land of "we'll pay you whether you work or not". The grocery stores charged everybody the same, only some folks didn't need cash, they paid with govt. issued food stamps. We all ate well, but the "stamp crew" could afford stuff I couldn't.

Something about those stamps and budgets don't mesh. :lol:

bancoduo - 6-21-2007 at 04:05 PM

You should have joined the "stamp crew" fool. Then you could have had more stuff. :lol:

Cypress - 6-21-2007 at 04:14 PM

bancoduo. Got way too much stuff as it is.

Don't need any handouts, but thanks for the advice. :bounce:

woody with a view - 6-21-2007 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Guess it all boils down to the fact that most of our fellow Gringos are too lazy to get off their butts, put in a days work and sweat a little.

to this i say, "kiss me where i POOP!" maybe you and yours are so well off that the "little mexicans" don't affect you, except when your house isn't clean or the lawn wasn't trimmed properly.....

try getting a job in San Diego in the construction industry while 35 "mexicans, for lack of a proper political description" swarm a jobsite to fight over ONE JOBand then head back to TJ at 3:30, thereby spending ZERO dollars in this economy.

does it seem like i'm spoiled? well don't ask me, your insurance company, the developer, or your HOA to pay when you realize, 2 years after you break ground to come to your rescue when you find your "investment" was built by those who only wanted to take EVERY dollar back south of the border. there is NO pride left in the construction industry.

bullseye..........

DENNIS - 6-21-2007 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Dennis, Have lived in the land of "we'll pay you whether you work or not". The grocery stores charged everybody the same, only some folks didn't need cash, they paid with govt. issued food stamps. We all ate well, but the "stamp crew" could afford stuff I couldn't.

Something about those stamps and budgets don't mesh. :lol:

Yeah ............ Isn't it great? We work our asses raw to pay for a system that gives free food privileges to some who need and deserve it and, lots of them who don't.
With food stamps, you can buy caviar but you can't buy paper to wipe your butt. I guess you have to eat caviar in moderation so as not to cause distress to the freeby system.

DENNIS - 6-21-2007 at 04:30 PM

Woody ----

Everything you said up there breaks my heart 'cause I know it's true.

oldhippie - 6-22-2007 at 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
try getting a job in San Diego in the construction industry while 35 "mexicans, for lack of a proper political description" swarm a jobsite to fight over ONE JOBand then head back to TJ at 3:30, thereby spending ZERO dollars in this economy.

Hey woody, is the construction company hiring illegal immigrants? If so your anger is misplaced. It should be directed at the American law breakers. If they are legal, isn't the company withholding payroll taxes? If not you anger is misplaced. It should be directed at the American law breakers.

Have you ever noticed the number of Mexicans shopping at the Chula Vista Walmarts? It doesn't appear that all the money is going south, if that really matters anyway.

In my line of work (computer programming) there are 100s of people from all over the world competing for a single job. So what? Sure it makes landing a job more difficult, but such is life.

Don't begrudge a man or woman because they want to work.

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 07:24 AM

your right. the chula vista costco is full of mexicans. just like the one in rose canyon is full of whites. demographics. ...

i know everyone wants to eat! i just took offense to being lumped in with people cypress knows.

but, i speak from experience on the 35-1 issue. drive downtown san diego at 6.30 am and you'll know what i mean. i realize it's the business owner is mostly at fault for hiring unqualified labor... maybe a cheap shot on my part?

where's the fence????

[Edited on 6-22-2007 by woody in ob]

bajalou - 6-22-2007 at 07:51 AM

I wouldn't think illegals would take a chance on commuting to and from Mexico on a daily basis.

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 08:03 AM

lou

try not to read between the lines.....re-read what i said. never did i say "illegal"......

oldhippie - 6-22-2007 at 09:03 AM

I don't like the fence idea, but the dislike is more philosophical than practical. No doubt they accomplish to some degree what they're supposed to. Hopefully someday fences won't be needed.

I just walked along the beach to the fence. Have to admit I pushed a Tecate beer can through the fence to the US side. The litter in TJ gets to me sometimes. :biggrin:

There's a lookout area at the very northwest corner of Mexico, here in Playas. Modern restrooms, a beach shower, and in the afternoon vendors selling food from pushcarts. It's quite a tourist attraction for Mexicans visiting TJ for whatever reason. The ugly rusty wall is right there, and since the lookout area is elevated, you can see as far as the atmosphere permits into the US. Nothing much to see though.

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 09:47 AM

Quote:

The litter in TJ gets to me sometimes

litter anywhere peees me off.

Here's accomplishment for ya!

Dave - 6-22-2007 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
I don't like the fence idea, but the dislike is more philosophical than practical. No doubt they accomplish to some degree what they're supposed to. Hopefully someday fences won't be needed.

I just walked along the beach to the fence. Have to admit I pushed a Tecate beer can through the fence to the US side. The litter in TJ gets to me sometimes. :biggrin:

Yesterday, some enterprising narcos built a ramp and drove a pickup full of dope up and over the fence. And we're not talking some itty bitty backyard fence. This was THE FENCE.

A frigging ramp! :lol:

Cypress - 6-22-2007 at 10:04 AM

woody in ob. It wasn't my intention to "lump" or insult you or anyone else in this forum. :bounce:

toneart - 6-22-2007 at 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
lou

try not to read between the lines.....re-read what i said. never did i say "illegal"......

Woody,

Isn't "illegal" immigration the issue? Anyone who is legal has a right to work here. Contractors have a right to hire whoever they want. Better get used to Mexican culture taking over. Nothing is going to reverse that trend.

I agree with you about diminished quality of work in the construction industry. There needs to be a return to building code standards. Where is the code enforcement?

How do you balance giving a quality product at a fair price with cutting labor costs to make a buck?

Why doesn't the construction industry set standards for skilled work? Aren't there still ROP programs and Community College programs that train? Why aren't there apprentice programs that demand certain minimum standards? Maybe lazy gringos would compete for those jobs if a fair wage scale accompanied the effort they put into training. If not, the industrious Latino population will train and compete for those jobs, if required.

Who wants it? What are you willing to do to get it?

Those who don't can have the hard labor jobs (not skilled) at minimum wage, and we all know who are willing to take those jobs.

This is not directed at Woody exclusively. He makes some good points. Everyone, please jump in.

[Edited on 6-22-2007 by toneart]

DENNIS - 6-22-2007 at 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

A frigging ramp! :lol:

It probably went right over a frigging tunnel.

DENNIS - 6-22-2007 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Maybe lazy gringos would compete for those jobs if a fair wage scale accompanied the effort they put into training.

BINGO.
Low wage workers have made unions obsolete or ineffctive at best. Unions were the only protection and fought for living wages but employers only see profit when they should be seeing a strong picket line. I see no reason why a crappy little tract house in the hinterlands of San Diego will cost 400 thousand to have built, especially with low cost labor.
I've never been a strong union supporter until now when I can see the justification for them. And, before I get screamed at, I was union most of my working life because it came with the job.

Mexitron - 6-22-2007 at 11:37 AM

The only thing I would say in defense of why a crappy little tract house costs so much in San Diego is that the price of the land is high. Also the price of grading and draining that land to the city's, county's, state's, and federal requirements can be substantial, as well as putting in streets, signals, etc....and they can get that price! ...but yah, quality has gone down, prices are too high for my taste--you can still get a new tract house in Texas for around 100K.

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 11:38 AM

i guess my beef is with the fact that i should be getting into management instead of piece working=making REAL money. only managing a jobsite full of latinos isn't my idea of fun, doesn't pay either. i actually love what i do (trim carpenter) but it just burns my butt that most guys on a job don't, or won't speak english. talk about divisive? about the only tades left that aren't 95% latino are electricians and plummers, at least on the finish end.

can't agree more with the statement about a POS tract home in Jamul cost $400k. labor costs are down 50-60%, etc....

Mexitron - 6-22-2007 at 03:15 PM

Woody-I'm a contractor too--since moving to Texas I've been working solo--means digging ditches and coming home covered in mud but I'm making almost what I was with five employees in CA. Don't know how long the old back and joints will go before giving out but I'm not missing the joys of managing workers and payroll at all.

Mexitron

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 04:59 PM

sweat built this country from the dirt up. i have no problem with sweating, hell, this time last year i was working swinging doors at Yuma Proving Grounds starting at 5am until 5pm so i could start driving home at 10-11am on Thurday............we gotta do what we gotta do.....

oldhippie - 6-22-2007 at 06:37 PM

woody, trim carpenter? cool. Carpentry is my hobby and I'm pretty good. My father was an amateur, put good enough to build a small summer house and my grandfather was a pro. I have hand tools from both of them.

I've built 2 small boats. 15' Mission Bay sloop and a deep vee 17' runabout. Used to drive it from Mission Bay to the Coronados.

Back to the immigration topic, but let's flip it around. This may sound like a wild idea but there really is a need for good carpenters here in TJ. Cabinets, doors, crown moulding, stair cases, etc. There are some very talented carpenters here but not enough. You could start a company I suppose and hire local talent to meet legal issues. With all the gringos moving here and all along the coast to Ensenada, good carpenters are needed to dress up these concrete block houses. And the trick is nothing is built to standard sizes. I need new kitchen cabinets to replace the cheap chit the house came with and neither Dixieline nor Home Depot have the size base cabinets I need (it's a long story). I'm going to build my own. I had to make my own screen door for the main entrance too. It's several inches shorter and wider than normal. Sort of like me. :spingrin:

The point is there's work, money, and American customers here for good carpenters, living is cheap and playas is a very mellow area. It is the Ocean Beach (I lived there for 30 years) of Tijuana. It's the city's beach. I just spent a day in San Diego and I'm real glad to be back.

Come on down and teach these young carpenters how it's done, especially for American customers. They'll work cheap and hard for you too.

DENNIS - 6-22-2007 at 07:06 PM

Hey old one...........

Do you really think it's that simple? Have you ever tried to teach a Mexican new ways in his old environment? They resist change. Turn your back on the student and he goes back to his old ways.
I had a friend who had a machine shop in Maneadero and he said this was his greatest obstacle. It's not that they wouldn't learn. They just wouldn't change.
And, if you think this is just my idea, look into it.

[Edited on 6-23-2007 by DENNIS]

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 07:15 PM

crazy world we live in. 30 years.....chances are we have crossed paths.

i'd like to hear more about your ideas. :light:

but, off the record, of course

.

[Edited on 6-23-2007 by woody in ob]

danaeb - 6-22-2007 at 07:25 PM

Woody, you're probably too young, but old hippie (how old?) do you remember 'Space Man' on the beach in OB? I'm an 'old' native also.

woody with a view - 6-22-2007 at 07:42 PM

you bet i remember Spaceman. he lived in the cottages at the foot of the pier. Clint Cary? was his name i think. somewhere i have an old business card that was supposed to provide "passage" for when his "people" landed to take us to the stars......good dope, i guess! :cool:

any chance you have any of his paintings you don't want anymore???? :light:

bancoduo - 6-22-2007 at 07:42 PM

I was a OB lifeguard in the early 60's when SPACE arrived. OK at first, but the skinny bastard turned into a real pain in the butt. Had to arrest him a number of times, which didn't make me very popular.

danaeb - 6-22-2007 at 08:00 PM

OK - apologies for momentarily hijacking this thread, but this is what I love about nomads. Bancoduo, you were probably at your lifeguard station in '63-64 when my teenage girlfriends and I were slathering on our iodine and baby oil and spending our summer days on the beach.

Dana

bancoduo - 6-22-2007 at 08:12 PM

Where did you hang on the beach?

danaeb - 6-22-2007 at 08:16 PM

Usually at the foot of Newport on the main part of the beach, but sometimes we hung with the bad boys, under the cliff, south of the pier.

oldhippie - 6-22-2007 at 09:14 PM

I used to trip out in those cottages at the pier when spaceman lived there, '75 or so. I had a hand painted original ticket to get onboard for the longest time but it's gone. I talked to Billy a while back, the son and now owner of those cottages. As he tells it he's had all sorts of offers for that prime real estate but feels the cottages embody the character of OB and is not going to change them. He looks just like his dad did.

I learned to surf at the pier. High tide, the pier, low tide north garbage, before leashes.

We should probably start an OB thread.

oldhippie - 6-22-2007 at 09:26 PM

[Edited on 6-23-2007 by oldhippie]

oldhippie - 6-23-2007 at 07:01 AM

I apologize dennis, it's not my place to single out any nomad. That was a mistake. I'll remove the post.

DENNIS - 6-23-2007 at 07:09 AM

Thanks for that, Oldhappyone...........

Mine last one comes down as well. You can see how cranky I get early in the morning.
Have a good day.

Cypress - 6-23-2007 at 11:00 AM

Packoderm. There definitely seems to be more people each year. Immigrants aren't living in those McMansions that are popping-up all over the countryside.

woody with a view - 6-23-2007 at 11:11 AM

immigration is necessary. but come through the gate, not over the fence.

where's the fence?

Packoderm - 6-23-2007 at 11:35 AM

Yes woody, I can see how immigration is necessary in order for a society to not become too centric in any fashion. Diversity is a good thing for fresh ideas and to breed tolerance. The border? The fence? Those things have been allowed to become just a joke. It must be worth it for somebody or that wouldn't be the case.

Mexitron - 6-23-2007 at 11:46 AM

Pack--Economically reverting to 1969 could be done but it will take some amount of recession and retrofitting I would guess; thing is that corporate America wants to keep growing to keep the bottom line happy, and the immigrants from Mexico help that out.

DENNIS - 6-23-2007 at 12:23 PM

Yeah .......... Where's the fence?

woody with a view - 6-24-2007 at 07:44 AM

:lol:

luckovich2007062036723 (Small).gif - 36kB

We Won.........

MrBillM - 6-24-2007 at 08:20 AM

They Lost. Get over it.

I'm willing to bet that we'd have the same result today if we adopted the same (economic and military) approach.

BTW, adopting the Aborigine viewpoint, would result in ALL of the Mexicans being thrown out too. They merely INVADED at an earlier date for a SHORTER period.

It's ironic that today's Mexican Rights groups justify their possession based on their own invasion. Especially given the fact that majorities of both the Aborigines and the Mexican residents of Ca-Az-NM welcomed the U.S. war against Mexico with the hope that they'd be treated better than they had been under Mexican rule.

oldhippie - 6-25-2007 at 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
... reverting to 1969 could be done ...

cool, I can go to Woodstock again!

oldhippie - 6-25-2007 at 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
It's ironic that today's Mexican Rights groups justify their possession based on their own invasion.

MrBill, I don't understand. Care to elaborate?

Al G - 6-25-2007 at 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
OK, where to start? The original post seems to contend that if our country doesn't experience population growth the U.S. will sputter and die? If immigration were to be halted, how long would it then take for our population to get to where it was in 1969? I believe that was just about the point where our population centers were rapidly spilling over into the countryside tearing up farms to make room for yet more housing and strip malls and such. I wouldn't be totally against letting our population lower to the level of 1969 for a better quality of life instead of how crowded things seem today.

As for economics, our Social Security taxes that actually goes toward supporting the older folks is not that big of a chunk of our incomes especially if you omit the more nutty of Social Security's outlays. Also, it is dwarfed by what we are to pay for national security.

We could contribute a larger portion of our incomes to pay for a larger percentage of a retired population without too much real economic duress if we decided that's what we want to do. Anyway, the old timers will die off eventually, and the fewer members of future generation's population sans the growth due to immigrants will result in a moderation of the young/old ratio in the future.

So, the question is, what kind of America would you want your grandchildren to inherit? I do enjoy American culture; and while it will evolve due to influences from around the globe - and that's a good thing, I would rather not see a single entity - Mexico - hijack it so thoroughly.

Downsizing seems to work for corporations, so why should it seem so automatically bad for the U.S. in general?

My proposal: Cease immigration into the U.S. until we reach a targeted, lowered level, and then, and only then, offer a limited level of immigration, and it should be rationed fairly to all the immigration candidates around the whole world without domination from a single entity so that our targeted population level is maintained. And this should occur only if necessary.

And one last thing, I hate to hear all this bullcorn about how we can't change something just because it has started. We can change it - and we must.

Packoderm...Please remove your post...this thread is not meant to allow you, your liberal agenda. Your graph is totally inaccurate and you are trying to cover up for the Democrats voting themselves enormous retirement packages and blame it on our Militery....few of which retire and suck the Government dry.
His pie chart is from:War Resisters League program
This has nothing to do with legal/illegal immigrations or our country need for them

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