BajaNomad - Don't Stop above Santo Tomas...

Don't Stop above Santo Tomas...

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 10:06 AM

I would like to know how many Nomads would work to stop corruption and criminals in Baja Norte?
Would you help?
Why would you not?
How would you start a campaign to get people not to stop and/or give up vacationing in TJ to Maneadero?
Who in mass media could we contact?
Why would you need to expose yourself and family to this corrupt, dangerous area?
Is it possible to find "Safe Green Zones" to stop? This would not cut the throats of the corrupt cops....
I may be over my head, but it is on my mind. "JUST STOP STOPPING"

Bruce R Leech - 6-10-2007 at 10:57 AM

Albert just what do they have going on up there that we dont have down here? why are you drawing the line at Maneadero?

jerry - 6-10-2007 at 11:14 AM

just think if a line was drawn and all the gringos would only stop south of that line the bad guys would know just where to go for prime pickings
at least up north there a big population so it spreads it out over the population
so i think all should continue as it has who need a flock??
and i will continue not stopping till i get way below ensenada :lol:

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
Albert just what do they have going on up there that we don't have down here? why are you drawing the line at Maneadero?

I understand your question and and I agree there are bad things happing below Maneadero too.
Just nowhere near as many.
I am looking to affect the economy and there by bring about Change in enforcement. If the Governor of Baja Norte sees the impact Maybe he will do something about The murders and truck stealing. The criminal activities are rampant and the only impact we can use is economical. "JUST DON"T STOP" :light:

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
just think if a line was drawn and all the gringos would only stop south of that line the bad guys would know just where to go for prime pickings
at least up north there a big population so it spreads it out over the population
so i think all should continue as it has who need a flock??
and i will continue not stopping till i get way below ensenada :lol:

Most of the criminals in Ensenada were not imported. They are a defacto of a major population and total corrupted and lack of policea enforcement...the gringo is a fat pig ready to poke a fork in.
The line is drawn at Maneadero because of topographic and population.
"JUST DON"T STOP"

Bruce R Leech - 6-10-2007 at 11:40 AM

Al I see your point and I understand what you are trying to do and it makes a lot of sense. but I just don't want people to think that they are any safer south of your Line and let there guard down. I am very familiar with the problems up there and having been a victim several times in your shall we call it RED ZONE. But I can Asher you and every one else that it is as bad or worse here in Little old Mulege and La Paz and Cobo and points in between

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 11:48 AM

You would know better then I....some people would disagree with you, but lets say you are right. I think, if we can affect the "red zone", it will in time show benefits in SUR too.

Lemmings

Dave - 6-10-2007 at 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
Al I see your point and I understand what you are trying to do and it makes a lot of sense. but I just don't want people to think that they are any safer south of your Line and let there guard down. I am very familiar with the problems up there and having been a victim several times in your shall we call it RED ZONE. But I can Asher you and every one else that it is as bad or worse here in Little old Mulege and La Paz and Cobo and points in between

DONT STOP!

There should be a road running up to a cliff edge in Cabo. All tourists should drive straight down, no stopping, and right off the edge.

Vehicles could refuel on the go via tanker truck.

Roll down the windows and we'll throw in some burritos.

DENNIS - 6-10-2007 at 12:01 PM

Albert ---

I honestly appreciate your motives here but, I think you may be looking for a response that we as Americans arn't famous for. Solidarity. As a group, we tend to turn our backs on situations that don't personally affect us. It's too bad but, that's just the way we are.

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Santo Tomas....100 miles 2.5 hrs
San Quintin........190 miles 4-5 hrs
No gas needed
No food needed
A bottle works well if you cannot stand the bush.
Anyone who think San Lucas is great...maybe would follow your other advice.

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 12:18 PM

Dennis...you are right about people and solidarity. If can get the contact info maybe I can keep some people from being ripped off.
There is nothing written stone that I will fail, as well as there is nothing that says I cannot try. Just a little help?

Bruce R Leech - 6-10-2007 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
You would know better then I....some people would disagree with you, but lets say you are right. I think, if we can affect the "red zone", it will in time show benefits in SUR too.

I think you are probably right.

I know our tourism was off this year and more due to crime frome the year before than gas prices or bad tacos :light:

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 12:27 PM

Maybe by the time my NASCAR race is over(got to go) I will get some contact info or more good suggestions.
Go Tony Stewert #20

fdt - 6-10-2007 at 12:31 PM

Al G, I understand what you are saying, but there are many of us that live here, that ARE doing something about it. You can decide not to stop and that is your choice, you say some would dissagree with Bruce, but I have to agree with him, and if you were "willing" to be more informed, IMHMO, there is more crime per capita going on in the south than in the north, as an example take todays Sudcaliforniano newspaper;
Rape, Drugs, Murder, Bomb threats, Drug cartel arrests and drug seisures, stolen vehicles, deadly accidents, kidnapings, to name a few, ant that is a lot considering that the entire state of Baja California Sur has about 500,000 people, and up here in your Red Zone you can count those people in about 3 or 4 colonias.

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/justicia.aspx
I think that there is more access to information for the north than for the south, so that is why more is not reported, again just MHMO. :saint:

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
Al G, I understand what you are saying, but there are many of us that live here, that ARE doing something about it. You can decide not to stop and that is your choice, you say some would dissagree with Bruce, but I have to agree with him, and if you were "willing" to be more informed, IMHMO, there is more crime per capita going on in the south than in the north, as an example take todays Sudcaliforniano newspaper;
Rape, Drugs, Murder, Bomb threats, Drug cartel arrests and drug seisures, stolen vehicles, deadly accidents, kidnapings, to name a few, ant that is a lot considering that the entire state of Baja California Sur has about 500,000 people, and up here in your Red Zone you can count those people in about 3 or 4 colonias.

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/justicia.aspx
I think that there is more access to information for the north than for the south, so that is why more is not reported, again just MHMO. :saint:

I will follow your suggestion, and read to gain insight into what is affecting us all. I am really wrapped up in this now and want to be fair.
With that said we need to start somewhere. I am hoping that what you are referring to is centered in Ciudad Constitucion and San Lucas.
Maybe later an effort to affect Sur too??

fdt - 6-10-2007 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
read to gain insight into what is affecting us all. I am really wrapped up in this now and want to be fair.
With that said we need to start somewhere.

You are correct, "we need to start somewere", how about better education ( and I mean values, morals, integrity, etc.), on both sides of the border or all over the planet, crime is everywere, drugs are everywere, it's worse than global warming

Diver - 6-10-2007 at 02:22 PM

Yikes !!!!

Thank you FDT for infusing some reason, facts and sanity to this post.
Yes, there is a problem, mostly with drug trafficers, in many places in the world. Many of the problems are caused by a simple lack of common sense.

Suggestions ??
If you are worried; STAY HOME !
Bad attitude leads to bad things happening !!
Be scared !!

More fishing for ME !! :lol:

Gnome-ad - 6-10-2007 at 03:53 PM

People stay away in droves when there is bad press on national (US) television. On my return in February I saw a piece on some show (senior brain does not allow retrieval of what show) about TJ and the drop in tourism, the exodus of residents, etc. because of drug and gang related shootings of non-involved bystanders and the perceived compliance of some police. Average people (not too average because it costs lots of $) were having their cars equipped with armor and bullet-proof glass to protect their families. That is not a great incentive to anyone to visit or stop. We had come back over at Tecate at my insistence and after viewing that show I did not feel so crazy for saying I just never wanted to go through TJ again if possible.

oldhippie - 6-10-2007 at 04:11 PM

I agree that folks heading to and coming from the south should go through Tecate and not stop until you get past Ensenada. I live in authentic and sustainable Tijuana and like to go to various places between here and Ensenada. Good luck in your endevours, it will mean less traffic for me to deal with.

Gnome-ad - 6-10-2007 at 04:20 PM

oldhippie ~ Since I am an old hippie, too, hope I did not offend with my comment about TJ. Authentic and sustainable are excellent qualities and I'm sure there are wonderful areas there. I just have not gotten to experience them in my limited travels through. I understand wanting less traffic and am happy to oblige.

Todos Santos was more authentic two years ago, but still is not San Lucas, thank goodness. Sustainable? I worry about the future of water all over Baja. TS has year round water now, but is being developed at an alarming rate as are many of the beautiful spots.

Peace.

oldhippie - 6-10-2007 at 05:25 PM

I was a little ticked by Al painting with such a broad brush and bemused by the concept that Americans driving through can affect the economy if they don't stop.

I feel perfectly safe here. What's going on between the cops and the drug cartel is completely analogous to Chicago during prohibition. The only difference being the drug of choice then was alcohol. And please, I don't mean to imply that drugs should be legalized. I'm only saying the violence and the participants are analogous.

DENNIS - 6-10-2007 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
And please, I don't mean to imply that drugs should be legalized. .

There are a lot of people who think that's the only way out of this mess.

comitan - 6-10-2007 at 05:50 PM

Approx. 180,000 people pass through the border each day into just TJ, most all of those people never get below Ensenada. :?:

oldhippie - 6-10-2007 at 05:53 PM

Perhaps the proper approach to stopping the current violence is just to de-emphasize the problem. The war on drugs paid for with our tax dollars has created just that, a war. You can't condone the behavior, nor can you stop it. You just need to "keep a lid" on the problem. And the war on drugs blew the lid off by taking out the Arellano cartel and leaving the lucrative western border smuggling route open to new contenders who are duking it out and bribing cops to support one or the other.

In TJ there is a tolerance zone for prostitution, which is illegal. The city officials thereby contain and control the behavior. In some European countries there are drug tolerance zones, Amsterdam for example. Some kind of middle ground like that needs to be established.

Feed the bears

Dave - 6-10-2007 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
I was a little ticked by Al painting with such a broad brush and bemused by the concept that Americans driving through can affect the economy if they don't stop.

I feel perfectly safe here. What's going on between the cops and the drug cartel is completely analogous to Chicago during prohibition. The only difference being the drug of choice then was alcohol. And please, I don't mean to imply that drugs should be legalized. I'm only saying the violence and the participants are analogous.

I don't think Al was referring to the cartel violence. Corrupt police/robbery are the primary concern of folks on this board. When I go to TJ I don't worry about a mob shootout...I worry about a police shakedown.

I don't think a boycott would do much good. Like Comitan says, most tourists never intend to travel south of Ensenada. Besides, if the police/robbers saw fewer tourists they would shift their attention to the gringos who live here. Wouldn't want that. Sorry guys...someone has to make the sacrifice. Better you than me. :biggrin:

Norm - 6-11-2007 at 06:17 AM

:moon:We have not stoped going south for a long time, have had no problems yet & hope we never do...,
Only one time coming back in to Ensenada the trailer hitch broke off, we had some help to get everything back in shape !!! Then later we found out that our jack was gone ~ & we gave this guy a tip for the help ????????????
~~~ Norm ~~~

[Edited on 6-11-2007 by Norm]

oldhippie - 6-11-2007 at 10:47 AM

You have 2 choices when stopped by a cop. Either pay the bribe or ask to be taken to the police station so you can pay the fine. The latter approach usually results in the cop letting you go if you did nothing wrong and if you actually did something wrong and got caught you have the option of giving the cop the money (amount negotiable) or going to the station and paying the fine.

I live in TJ now and have been driving in the area between TJ and Ensenada for over 30 years (old surfer). I've never been stopped. I was stopped once in La Paz for failing to yield to a pedestrian where there wasn't a cross walk. I took the convenient route and gave the cop 100 pesos.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Thank you Dave...Drugs and cartels are not the problem here...Enforsement is the whole deal or the lack of it. Both outright theft and allowing other to get away with it. One thing that really bugs me is the total lack of caring. If we want to educate them, then prove to them their entire monetary existence depend on us.
I feel bad for the position FDT and other merchants are in. I hope fdt is willing to explain the positive steps he eluded to and what we can expect in the near future...The drug wars are a feeble excuses for doing nothing about the policia...traffic tickets are not real issues either so leave them out too.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
I was a little ticked by Al painting with such a broad brush and bemused by the concept that Americans driving through can affect the economy if they don't stop.

I feel perfectly safe here. What's going on between the cops and the drug cartel is completely analogous to Chicago during prohibition. The only difference being the drug of choice then was alcohol. And please, I don't mean to imply that drugs should be legalized. I'm only saying the violence and the participants are analogous.

If this is true why are you concern with me spending my time on all boards I can reach RV, Fishing,etc.. in an effort to inform of safety issues issues that exist.
If you are so bemused it having "No effect" the "Just don't stop" should not be of concern.
I am very happy you feel "perfectly safe"...Most of us are not so ingrained and informed to keep our belongings safe. I have this feeling, you do not take the same risks that you would if you lived in a safer place. I have absolutely no fear of leaving my home and car unlocked at night or day. Do you? Do you have a large barrier around your property? Would you feel safe leaving you processions in the care of policia?
I do not want to be confrontational, but your lack of concern for fellow travelers leaves little else.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 02:06 PM

Sorry for my hastie typing...and spelling.

losfrailes - 6-11-2007 at 05:09 PM

Al G

What in the world makes you think that 'their entire monetary existence' depends on us?

Just a little egotistical don't you think.

If you feel unsafe here, why come? Is it to expand the monetary existence of the population here?

Note that the responses about problems here in Baja, be it in 'Mulege, Los Cabos, La Paz' or other locations seem to be coming from only a very small segment of the people that enjoy their existence here in Baja. Definitely not all share your opinion of our importance to the very existence of the Mexicanos who live here.

I do get the impression that you do not live down here, nor do you pay much attention to what goes on down here, other than the bad news that happens. Which by the way, happens at an even faster pace in the US than down here.

I myself lived in Concord CA for several years, it was the only place where someone entered my garage and stole a complete set of mechanics tools. No such occurence down here. Now in those days there was not website to get on and complain, and I still stop in Concord when I pass thru. Of course I do not represent as great a source of monetary existence to Concord CA as you feel you do to Baja Mexico.

Good luck when you need help down here. You are sure to find it. As long as you have enough money to sway the feelings of the people who would try to help. Those people that need your financial assistance for their very monetary existence that is.

bajalou - 6-11-2007 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I have absolutely no fear of leaving my home and car unlocked at night or day. Do you? Do you have a large barrier around your property? Would you feel safe leaving you processions in the care of policia?
I do not want to be confrontational, but your lack of concern for fellow travelers leaves little else.

I live full time in Mexico in a area which - to my dislike - is becoming a gated community. In the 12+ years I have lived here there were no security on the roads itll about 2 years ago. I have no fences around my place. I have a garage full of tools and motors and VW parts which I leave open UNLESS I go to the old country. I only close the door to my home if it's cold or I'm going to the old country. There are keys in most of my vehicles (those that use keys). I have lived this way the entire time I have been here. My wife and I feel much safer personally and for my belongings here than in the old country (USA).

Last year, my mother-in-law's house in Lucerne valley was burgled of TV and lots of other stuff. In Fremont where I lived before coming here I had my car stolen from in front of my house, tools stolen from my garage.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 06:07 PM

Yeah...that was a very strong statement...not untrue not wholly true. Tell me what do you think would happen if all tourism were to stop. What is the GNP of Baja Norte...Aggaculture...services...tourisum...illegals
You should not ignore the rest of what I said.
The best you can advise the un-suspecting is:
"JUST DON"T STOP"
Would you warn the unsuspecting or do you think...let them suffer for your own well being???
When you have a better answer let me know.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:

I live full time in Mexico in a area which - to my dislike - is becoming a gated community. In the 12+ years I have lived here there were no security on the roads itll about 2 years ago. I have no fences around my place. I heave a garage full of tools and motors and VW parts which I leave open UNLESS I go to the old country. I only close the door to my home if it's cold or I'm going to the old country. There are keys in most of my vehicles (those that use keys). I have lived this way the entire time I have been here. My wife and I feel much safer personally and for my belongings here than in the old country (USA).

Last year, my mother-in-law's house in Lucerne valley was burgled of TV and lots of other stuff. In Fremont where I lived before coming here I had my car stolen from in front of my house, tools stolen from my garage.

You do not live in TJ or Ensenada and I was not referring solely to Concord.
Why is there such a defensive posture to my condemnations of corrupt cops? Are you supporting the corruption in Baja Norte?

bajalou - 6-11-2007 at 06:24 PM

Quote:

Why is there such a defensive posture to my condemnations of corrupt cops? Are you supporting the corruption in Baja Norte?

I haven't met a corrupt cop in Mexico yet. Maybe I will some day but not so far. And yes, I've been stopped several times for violations - speeding, running stop signs, no tail lights and every time I was told to get the light fixed as soon as I could, or we went to the police station and I paid the fine. None even hinted about doing it any other way. And yes - my story is my story - yours will be different.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 06:46 PM

Yes mine is different...I do not speed..I do not run stops...I do not do anything that would get me pulled over. I was pulled over in CD for a non-working light on my Quad trailer...
My fine was one mil Paso for a fix-it ticket...he kept lowering the price and I kelp telling him to take me to jail or get me to a mechanic.
I don't care about this type of corruption...I care when they steal 50 K from someone. You know they are corrupt...I know they are corrupt sooo why the BS.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hose A
Just watching the local Ensenada TV new is which there was the announcement that 7 Federal police officers [PFP] were arrested today on drug trafficking charges. Mexicali division.

The were shown on TV in uniform with the stacks of money and drugs that was in their possession at time of arrest.
They were arrested by the Mexican army .

HoseA...I know there is a movement of honest special forces and military that are tackling corruption and I feel great about it.
It gives all hope...when it trickles down to the local cops and their cronies, and I am sure it will, I will change my tune. For now, travelers need to know what they are up against. That should be the Mexican government's job I think, but I will do what I can.
I am sure I have bit off more then I can chew.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 07:16 PM

HoseA...I meant to say thank you for the heads up, because we know the government has not quit.

bajalou - 6-11-2007 at 07:31 PM

Quote:

Why is there such a defensive posture to my condemnations of corrupt cops? Are you supporting the corruption in Baja Norte?

dr650 - 6-11-2007 at 08:53 PM

I agree with Los Frailes. Too many southbound gringos today believe that their monies are primarily responsible for making the country go 'round. There's a self-involved attitude inherent in that belief that fosters an unhealthy feeling of superiority and entitlement.

If we are not citizens of Mexico, we are visitors in Mexico. And if we are visitors, we do not call the shots nor do we make the rules. And if we love the country and the people, we will thank our hosts for allowing us into their homes where we have the opportunity to experience a different way of life, good and bad.

The hustle is ten times worse north of the border, and it goes right to the top. When it comes to crime ... there's no contest. Ditto on corruption. Our government up north shakes us down on a daily basis and we don't even squawk. And when it comes to quality of life ... forget about it. People are happier down south. That's as plain as the scowl on someone's commuter face.

Murphy

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 09:43 PM

Dr650..you spouted off about everything on a global basis except Corrupt cops in Baja Norte. The only thing that is being discuss. I sensed in your words , that being a guest, we should expect to be abused. I don't give a rats crap for your opinion, as that is just plain wrong.
By saying something about the tourist dollar, I have given you a wailing wall...well wail away.
I hope you don't get caught off gaurd...they may think you are a tourist.
"And if we love the country and the people, we will thank our hosts for allowing us into their homes where we have the opportunity to experience a different way of life, good and bad."
Well said....have no clue what it has to do with crime and cops.
I guess you had to say something....

fdt - 6-11-2007 at 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I hope fdt is willing to explain the positive steps he eluded to and what we can expect in the near future...

I have explained it before here on Baja Nomad about the group of people I belong to, but you seem to be not willing to listen, maybe this should now go to he political forum were i do not post.

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
If we want to educate them, then prove to them their entire monetary existence depend on us.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but you are very mistaken.

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Do you have a large barrier around your property? Would you feel safe leaving you processions in the care of policia?

I/we live in Tijuana and no, we do not even have a garage door, no large barrier at all. As for leaving my posessions in the care of the policia, I would not do that, they are not my personal security guards nor are they a posession care center.

oldhippie - 6-12-2007 at 08:06 AM

Al,

I wrote about police corruption as it pertains to the drug cartels and to bogus traffic stops. I think you said neither was the issue. So what are you talking about?

I don't know for a fact but I bet the TJ to Ensenada police force is very small in relation to the number of people and what Americans are used to. There probably is just not the resources required to deter crime and find the criminals after a crime is commited.

And, the situation is well known, albeit exaggerated. If you find it so distressing you should probably drive thru as you suggest.

Tourism in the TJ area supports the red light district and the trinket shops/restaurants/bars within walking distance from the border. Nothing more. Much the same in Ensenada.

rpleger - 6-12-2007 at 08:07 AM

Lots of crime here, Don't come here,
Stay away..

dr650 - 6-12-2007 at 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
"Dr650..you spouted off about everything on a global basis ..."

Well, actually Al, like you, I do live here on the globe, although sometimes I wonder why.

"I sensed in your words , that being a guest, we should expect to be abused ..."

Umm, that's a bit of a stretch, Al. In terms of accuracy, it might be better to just read the words rather than sense any hidden commie meaning behind them. But thanks for the chuckle.

"I don't give a rats crap for your opinion ..."

Does this mean we're through?

"I have given you a wailing wall...well wail away ...."

Try saying that backwards three times, AND faster.

"I hope you don't get caught off gaurd...they may think you are a tourist."

Somehow, and I'm not sure exactly how they do it, but those pesky Mexicans usually can tell right away that I'm a tourist, Al. It must have something to do with the full set body armor. Or maybe, the body odor. Dunno.

" ... have no clue what it has to do with crime and cops ..."

I think we've taken a very big first step here today, Al. Until next week, keep it real ... and try taking life a little more seriously.

Murphy

Iflyfish - 6-12-2007 at 08:43 AM

As I age I find myself feeling more vulnurable, slower in my responses and less physically able to defend myself. I try to take this into account as I assess the risk of the enviorment that I am in. This increased sense of vulnerability influences and informs both my perceptions and choices.

I mention this not to discount nor diminish the concerns over corruption and crime, but to add to this discussion another level of consideration, an internal one.

Iflyfish

Corrupt Cops ?

MrBillM - 6-12-2007 at 08:50 AM

Lou Says:
"I haven't met a corrupt cop in Mexico yet."

Having paid Mordida numerous times, I must have met Lou's share of Corrupt Cops.

Since I've NEVER encountered a Corrupt Cop in the USA, using Lou's logic, I have to express my doubt that any exist.

Don't take this to mean that I have any complaints about the Mordida system in Mexico. I support it. It's sort of like sending in Rebate coupons. You've got the choice.

bajalou - 6-12-2007 at 08:59 AM

MrBillM - glad you're getting my share. I certainly know they exist, but haven't had personal experience with them. No Aduana, that's a different story.

On an aside, looks like their still might be a few left in the US to be concerned about.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4881430.htm...

Diver - 6-12-2007 at 09:15 AM

Ifly makes a very good point.

I value FDT and Los Frailles' opinions based on my knowledge of their past posts and excellent local reputations. I happen to agree with their opinions here as well. However, like me, they are still of working age.

I have viewed this thread and considered it to be similar to the recent post reminding people to always watch their kids in the water. This should be common sense to any coherent parent and seemed to be "stating the obvious".
In this case there is a definite difference in perceptions, both valid in my view.
1. The seasoned Baja traveler, resident and citizen, young or older, who also takes foreign residence and traveling precautions as the norm. Not that we haven't had a "problem" or two but such is life, just like in the US.
2. The much older Baja traveler or the first timers who may either be less capable than the old days or may not be aware of the norm of travelling cautions. Also travelers with kids or elderly who have obvious additional reasons for caution. Reasons for nervousness can only be judged by the individual person and situation.

I am a "1" now and hope to remain one in the future.
Although I am not a supporter of the "Just don't Stop" additude for myself, I would tell my 70 something year old parents, who may come down for their first time this year, to make San Quinton or El Rosario on their first night, if we were not with them.
.

[Edited on 6-12-2007 by Diver]

ding, ding, ding - we have a winner!!!

woody with a view - 6-12-2007 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Having paid Mordida numerous times, I must have met Lou's share of Corrupt Cops.

this is my experience, also. i also have wore down a few cops until they just gave up and sent me on my way.... but the ratio is about 10-1 for the mordida. all of the "payday's" were when i was a kid (makes sense). now they see the sindicatura sticker and smile.....

toneart - 6-12-2007 at 10:31 AM

Fear is a huge motivator! Politicians and political parties run (and win) their campaigns by selling it. Some people let it rule their lives while others stay aware and take sensible precautions.

Of course, there are corrupt cops in TJ and Ensenada. That's the way it is. That's the way the system works. There is also a lot of crime; crimes of opportunity and also violent crimes. It is often in the news and it sometimes involves tourists, though not often. Everyone internalizes this information and handles it their own way. There are many who are either unaware or unconcerned. They will spend time and money here and not experience anything negative. In fact, most travelers will have a great time with no negative impact.

Al G. has suggested a boycott of that part of Baja. I think it is a valid way to handle the fear. Breeze through it, hopefully unscathed. Don't spend your tourist $ there. By posting his idea here, his hope is to enlist others to join his boycott. Enlisting others in a crusade is the way for a boycott to succeed.

I do think that the negative reports of drug cartel violence and police involvement have caused lots of people to not cross the border this year. I personally doubt whether people who may join Al's effort will make any negative impact on the area, nor will the business community or the government care.

If you feel the way Al does, it will certainly make you feel better by not patronizing that northern part of Baja. That's important.

DanO - 6-12-2007 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

I personally doubt whether people who may join Al's effort will make any negative impact on the area, nor will the business community or the government care.

If you feel the way Al does, it will certainly make you feel better by not patronizing that northern part of Baja.

Correct. No one will care and it won't have an impact, but if it makes you feel better to live in fear, well, okay. I won't go through life like that, even if I should.

DENNIS - 6-12-2007 at 12:00 PM

Well, it won't happen anyway. As I said earlier, Americans are into apathy, not solidarity.

Al's efforts arn't self-serving. He's thinking of the greater good for all of us. Too bad he had to get pounded for that.

[Edited on 6-12-2007 by DENNIS]

fdt - 6-12-2007 at 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I personally doubt whether people who may join Al's effort will make any negative impact on the area, nor will the business community or the government care.

If you feel the way Al does, it will certainly make you feel better by not patronizing that northern part of Baja. That's important.

I think I have a great idea :light:

Al:
what if you keep the position of not stopping till santo Tomas, but instead of just telling the forums, (David K once said:this is baja nomad, not USA today) you express your opinion to the cities involved, the convention and visitors bureaus of those cities, hotel associations, etc. and the secretary of tourism for the state. It should be easy, just one e-mail addressed to all of the above, and see what they rerspond, who knows, they might even book you a night in Tijuana with dinner included and maybe a tour, so you can see first hand and you could probably talk to the officials and see from them what they are doing about it.

DENNIS - 6-12-2007 at 03:27 PM

fdt ----------

Great thoughts for implementaion of Al's ideas but, it's not what Al wanted directly.
He wanted cooperation from other Nomads. He wanted to instigate a grassroots response. He wanted to feel that we all support him.
I do support him and his altruistic thoughts and ideas. Our Baja world needs more heart and soul from us, just like Al's.
We can't go on thinking that our secret spot in Baja is "ours and not theirs". We can't go on turning our backs to the victimization which we endure.
Shame on us for our lack of togetherness, solidarity. We are so self-centered and selfish that we don't care about each other.
That's the problem with Al's proposal. Not that it is misdirected but, that it falls on deaf ears. Ears that only hear Mariachi when their neighbor is calling for help.
Shame on all of us.

DanO - 6-12-2007 at 03:52 PM

Dennis, solidarity has nothing to do with it. Solidarity is only relevant when a group agrees on the underlying philosophy. That's where we part company. I cannot support the position that everything north of Santo Tomas is such a hellhole that we should refuse to patronize any businesses there. Sure, there are specific places that should, in the exercise of common sense, be avoided. But a blanket generalization is unwarranted and sends entirely the wrong message to people who use this board as a research tool and resource. Example -- I had a fantastic weekend in the Guadalupe Valley recently. I should boycott the great wineries, restaurants and other establishments there because the cops in TJ are corrupt? Another example -- we have a friend in Ensenada who builds cabinets and furniture. We've sent him and his shop tons of business, and have lately referred him to other customers, contributing to his livelhood and those of the people who work for him. We should stop sending people to this guy, who's a craftsman, a good person, with a delightful family, because there are more gangbangers in Rosarito than we'd like? I just disagree.

DENNIS - 6-12-2007 at 04:27 PM

No DanO -----------

Al's suggestions were not what I was refering to. Not at all.
My reference was to lack of solidarity as the American way. We don't support one another unless we have personal motives. That is my point.

I recall in the past when the Mexican government stated, and made a stand, that the government of Israel was a Zionist entity.

That enflamed the USA population of Jews, enlightened through their system of tempels, to the point that they boycotted Mexico as a tourist destination.
It wasn't too long before a representitive of the Mexican government was in Tel Aviv, on his/her knees kissing the toes of a revered statue, saying, "So sorry. We didn't mean what we said."
Solidarity really hurt their tourism.

That's what I'm saying.

Albert has the right idea although his methods are flawed. If we all had Alberts heart and sense of right and wrong, we might have solidarity.
That would be a wonderful day in my life, to see us as a group express our desires.

[Edited on 6-12-2007 by DENNIS]

Stirring the pot again, eh Dennis?

Lee - 6-12-2007 at 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
fdt ----------

We can't go on turning our backs to the victimization which we endure.
Shame on us for our lack of togetherness, solidarity. We are so self-centered and selfish that we don't care about each other. That's the problem with Al's proposal. Not that it is misdirected but, that it falls on deaf ears. Ears that only hear Mariachi when their neighbor is calling for help. Shame on all of us.

This thread is full of alot of things and it demonstrates different people's experiences in Baja. I've never had problems in Ensenada and don't expect to ever have problems there. I am aware of the problems that can come up, and crimes of opportunity is high on that list.

This thread will, possibly, invoke more fear and paranoia, and yet other people won't be effected by what they read. There is a warning being passed on of bad experiences some people have had in BCN and it's important that these experiences be read and the lessons learned be passed on.

As for thinking we're one big family and need some moral lectures from Dennis about sticking together, and supporting each other (in a boycott, or whatever), and feeling bad and ashamed, don't go off the deep end with this stuff. It's possible that other than the bad PR TJ is getting with cartel's, there is nothing new happening between TJ and Ensenada that hasn't been happening for a long time. Maybe it's just making the news more and bad news sells.

:cool:

DENNIS - 6-12-2007 at 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

I've never had problems in Ensenada and don't expect to ever have problems there.

Im sure thats because you're so in charge of yourself and everything around you.

Could I get a picture of that?

Dave - 6-12-2007 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
It wasn't too long before a representitive of the Mexican government was in Tel Aviv, on his/her knees kissing the toes of a revered statue, saying, "So sorry. We didn't mean what we said."

I don't remember anything like that happening.

Besides, Jews don't vacation in Mexico. :rolleyes:

Gee Dennis, I'm lost in translation. Help me out?

Lee - 6-12-2007 at 05:41 PM

What I really meant was: how's crime in Punta Banda? Are the bandidos at your door?

More graffiti and crime, possibly, in Todos Santos than in La Paz, if you consider per capita. Stay away and STAY OUT OF ENSENADA!!!!

Now, why don't you and Bill hold hands and join some of the other's here:

Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone's laughing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's laughing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's laughing, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone's crying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone's praying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone's singing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

:cool:

fdt - 6-12-2007 at 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
fdt ----------

Great thoughts for implementaion of Al's ideas but, it's not what Al wanted directly.
He wanted cooperation from other Nomads. He wanted to instigate a grassroots response. He wanted to feel that we all support him.

Thanks Dennis (by the way, I hear a rumor that Dennis is not your real name) for answering on behalf of Al, but if you must answer for him, I suggest you re-read the original post

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I would like to know how many Nomads would work to stop corruption and criminals in Baja Norte?
Would you help?
Why would you not?
How would you start a campaign to get people not to stop and/or give up vacationing in TJ to Maneadero?
Who in mass media could we contact?
Why would you need to expose yourself and family to this corrupt, dangerous area?
Is it possible to find "Safe Green Zones" to stop? This would not cut the throats of the corrupt cops....
I may be over my head, but it is on my mind. "JUST STOP STOPPING"

My answers to his questions:
#1 I do, as a Ciudadano Vigilante of CCSP
#2 Yes
#3 I would
#4 I would start with those e-mails
#5 There are several of them that would be interested but they would all ask if you've done #4
#6 We don't think we are exposing our selves, we think we are pretty safe and that our kids are safe
#7 Don't realy understand this one.

And Al, I don't think your over your head, I think you have a good idea. I insist that you would have to start going thru the proper chanels. Then again we have to see if it's ok with Dennis, you know, the one that lives in Ensenada and endures a life of victimization

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
We can't go on turning our backs to the victimization which we endure.

Al G - 6-12-2007 at 08:38 PM

Sorry Nomads...long hard day...made worse by the memories of long easy days in Baja.
One hell of a lot of good posts...I was beginning to think apathy was all that exist out there.
Right now, my brain is scrambled (Tax audit), but sometime tomorrow AM I will reply with some clarity and thank some and win others...Solidarity... a real test of the soul.

[Edited on 6-13-2007 by Al G]

DENNIS - 6-13-2007 at 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
What I really meant was: how's crime in Punta Banda? Are the bandidos at your door?

No, not at my door although, two of them drove up next to me at 40 MPH and blew the back window out of my car with a high powered pistol, missing my head by a foot.

bajamigo - 6-13-2007 at 07:40 AM

Dennis, what coud you have possibly done to tick them off so badly?

DENNIS - 6-13-2007 at 09:09 AM

It was a random incident. A drive-by with a moving target. It happened right by Campo Arnaíz.

DENNIS - 6-13-2007 at 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

I don't remember anything like that happening.

Wow. I'm so sorry to hear that because we all know, the memory isn't the first thing to go. Don't we.

woody with a view - 6-13-2007 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Wow. I'm so sorry to hear that because we all know, the memory isn't the first thing to go. Don't we.

how the hell would i know, i don't REMEMBER!!!!!!

dr650 - 6-13-2007 at 08:40 PM

Hey Al,

In all sincerity, good luck with the tax audit crap. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Murphy

Al G - 6-13-2007 at 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dr650
Hey Al,

In all sincerity, good luck with the tax audit crap. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Murphy

me nether...second day pouring over this and I have found that in 2003 $9500 in small tools was put on a 39 year depreciation...that would make me 102 when they end their useful life...I'll still be chasing women, but damn it I just don't want to wait that long :lol:

I know it is over my home office and I don't live on the edge, but it has not stopped me from wasting this time...I am sure all will be well Monday.
Back to the subject....uahhh...what was it :biggrin:

DENNIS - 6-14-2007 at 07:20 AM

Albert ---

We were talking about Pacifico. Lots of Pacifico.
We decided to quit talking about it and do a long term taste test.