BajaNomad - baja sur building codes - are they online?

baja sur building codes - are they online?

islandmusicteach - 6-21-2007 at 09:45 AM

Man oh man have I had some good laughs and smiles reading this forum. Definitely the only place for real Baja info!!

Well, I finally have another question one of you may be able to help with. Anyone know if Baja Sur building codes are available online? If not, know where to buy em? Or got a code book lying around I can copy and send back to you?

Thanks,
Marko.

Don Alley - 6-21-2007 at 09:57 AM

Uh-oh...

There are building codes here?

toneart - 6-21-2007 at 10:51 AM

Not sure if there is a national building code or even a state UBC.
The building codes that applied in my house in Mulege were local. I wasn't the builder but did oversee the project. It seems that the codes were (ahem) applied selectively. However, I didn't see a thing. :rolleyes:

roundtuit - 6-21-2007 at 10:54 AM

:?:

cabobaja - 6-21-2007 at 11:10 AM

Building codes in BCS :?:

Never seen them. A qualified engineer must sign your structural plans inorder to receive building permit. As you pay him a fee for his approval/signature, he is supposed to do periodic checks on the construction. But, have never seen any engineer come back to site and check.

tripledigitken - 6-21-2007 at 11:12 AM

longlegsinlapaz where are you.......................?

I would bet she knows!

Ken

bajajudy - 6-21-2007 at 11:12 AM

I think that you have the plans drawn up by an architect, he turns them in and gets them approved. The only rule that I know of here in Los Cabos is that you cannot go over 3 stories. What codes they use is a mystery, if they have such a thing. They were very interested in the ceiling/floor of our two story building. We used foam and it required a lot of varilla, so they must have some sort of code. Get an architect and let him figure it out. They do require real plans for building permits....not something drawn on a c-cktail napkin.

Don Alley - 6-21-2007 at 11:52 AM

We drew our own plans on a piece of paper. No architect. Then our builder had someone translate those drawings into something official-looking to take into the city for approval and a permit. I took the plans in to the city office and handed them to...the man that drew them. He, of course, approved them. :biggrin:

And in Loreto, you cannot build higher than the mission.

[Edited on 6-21-2007 by Don Alley]

vandenberg - 6-21-2007 at 12:08 PM

Here in Loreto had my plans drawn up by a local architect. The guy never came by when the house was under construction. Did come by to see it 2 years after completion.

Had to hire a crane to get my comercial stove and large TV to the second floor. Replaced my side by side refrigerator last week and it took 3 days to get it to the upper floor. Had to remove doors ,hinges etc. to get it up the stairs. Sooo much for building codes. :?:

bajajudy - 6-21-2007 at 12:22 PM

This is another of those....different where you are things.
So where are you?

toneart - 6-21-2007 at 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Here in Loreto had my plans drawn up by a local architect. The guy never came by when the house was under construction. Did come by to see it 2 years after completion.

Vandy,
Did you remember to get a building permit to move all those things? :lol:

amir - 6-21-2007 at 04:21 PM

Of course there are building codes!
But are they published? I doubt it.
The building inspector is the guy to talk to in our town, he's a walking encyclopedia, and he has photographic memory, and that's his job.
You have to get the architect and the drawings, and you have to get the engineer; sometimes you need a surveyor, sometimes an environmental impact statement, they all get a cut. It is best to hire the services of a builder in your area who knows all the rules of that jurisdiction. In the long run, the fee you pay the builder will save you tons of money in the future. There is a lot more paperwork to get besides drawings and a permit in order to make the building legal and occupyable. Later on, if you ever want to sell that building, you will wish you had gotten all the little duckies in a row while you were building...
But the building inspector has the final word and gets the final bribe.
There have been some pretty crazy buildings going up in this area.
How could these people get permits to build those monstrosities?
They paid the building inspector what he asked, under the table, of course...

islandmusicteach - 6-21-2007 at 04:30 PM

To Bajajudy: I'm in Santiago, Los Cabos municipality! To everyone else, thanks for the sage advice about making sure the right officials are happy .... BUT I'll put a case of beer down right now and bet that somewhere in a dusty room under a coffee cup and a rusty theolodite a building code does indeed exist... now finding it is another matter...

Marie-Rose - 6-21-2007 at 04:33 PM

In TS (as Amir pointed out) we certainly had the engineer come to our site several times during construction...and our architect was there several times a week!
I was astounded by the paperwork we recieved upon completion along with a booklet that had pictures from start to finish.
We also have a friend who's very small addition was halted as the permit was not posted where it could be seen.
Amir...I believe I know which monstrosities you speak of... certainly not in our barrio of San Ignacio!!

Check your u2u!

[Edited on 2007-6-21 by Marie-Rose]

comitan - 6-21-2007 at 04:55 PM

The zoo keeper has the codes posted on the one of the cages you can guess which one. :lol:

bajajudy - 6-21-2007 at 05:19 PM

Aha. I believe that you will have to come to San Jose to catastro for your permits. We did get an architect to handle all that and it went smoothly.
When you come to town for these formalities, take the road in front of the bomberos out to La Playa and stop in and say HI. After you cross the arroyo, look to your left. You will see a tall sand colored building with LIBROS BOOKS on the side...thats me.

Welcome to the neighborhood. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you.

flatiron.jpg - 45kB

bajatorres - 6-21-2007 at 08:52 PM

Not online as far as I know..........
but we were told by the building permit dept in San Jose del Cabo ( for Los Cabos municipal) that the maximum height is 7 meters (22.75 feet) and that if you build lot line to lot line, you have to have a 1 meter ( 3.25 feet) clearance for 1 story and 2 meter (6.5 feet ) clearance for 2 story. If you don't comply with the clearance, you may not have any windows or openings to your neighbor's sides. If you do have openings, be prepared to have them closed off.

Diver - 6-21-2007 at 09:12 PM

How about a Nomad engineer ??
I hope to get my license for civil engineering and architecture in Mexico soon. :biggrin:

longlegsinlapaz - 6-21-2007 at 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
longlegsinlapaz where are you.......................?

I would bet she knows!

Ken

Ken:

Hey, I swear I only abandoned my post for about 11 hours to go into town!! :spingrin:

Yes there are codes; a couple of the ones I know have been posted here, about setback from property line & no windows if on property line, for the most part, the ones I know are ones that have pertained to me specifically. I've got an inquiry out to see if they come in any type of publically consumable form. I think there is an online site...just gotta find it! Of course, they'd be in Espanol!! Give me until Friday evening & I'll post my findings.

I do know what's basically been posted here...with some corrections to inaccurate information...Environmental Impact Study (EIS) is REQUIRED in all but odd cases (i.e., the land was cleared by someone else prior to your purchasing it & then, a letter stating it was cleared by a prior owner is required by at least the last owner). So many people have ignored this teensy weensy little technicality, that the law is currently being changed to require the seller to have it done as a part of the sales process. Not sure when this will become legal.

I take exception to anyone (Amir :rolleyes:

) recommending to others to be prepared to pay a bribe to get inspectors to look the other way. You still don't have the legal paperwork you need & the person you bribe will get fired & jail time if they're caught, but you still have the legal obligation to pay for the missing studies, surveys, permits, etc., as well as late payment fees, fines for not having done them in the first place & monetary penalties for bribing a Federal employee!! It's not worth it & it's not fair to offer low-paid people extra money to break the law!! IMNSHO (In my not so humble opinion) Hey! What can I say...I'm an ethical kinda person and I don't apologize for that!! islandmusicteach is trying to do the right thing here, please don't encourage him to break the law!

Because La Paz is where the applications end up for all of BCS, I sincerely doubt that there are several different codes, it's more likely, the farther from La Paz, the less adherence & enforcement of the codes & laws. The codes that I know of lean towards structural integrity, as opposed to aesthetics.

A survey is ALWAYS required, as is EIS (if one has not previously been done), alignmiento for setback of fence on road side...and I DO NOT recommend that you just ask your builder to make you legal. Many (I DIDN'T SAY ALL!) builders won't protect you, the client, they'll just start construction because the sooner they start, the sooner they get $$$ rolling in! Builders and/or architects are NOT liable for any omissions, YOU, the owner is totally liable, whether the omission was done through ignorance or stealth! These process can take a long time...I applied for EIS in December & hope to get the final approval to clear my land manana!!! And yes, I waited...because it's the law & I figure the Feds get enough in fees without adding a $100,000 peso fine to the mix!

islandmusicteach as I said above, I hope to have some definitive information regarding printed or on-line codes for BCS within 24 hours. :bounce:

Vandenberg, who designed your casa?? Please post his name, so everyone will know who NOT TO USE! :lol:

He obviously failed "Attention To Detail #101"!

amir - 6-22-2007 at 12:14 AM

Longlegs, I'm not advocating bribery here. I was just reporting how one, in Todos Santos, gets the proper legal paperwork to proceed, finish, and manifest a construction.

Let me clarify: You tell the building inspector what you want to build. He tells you what you need to get - a permit, architects, engineers, reports, whatever you will need for your project. Then he tells you the fee. There is a schedule of fees for permits for whole new buildings, remodels, additions, replacement of roofs, replacement of windows, block or stone fences, everything!

Some of these requirements you will have to pay separately for their services, like architects and engineers and reports and so on. But us far as the BUILDING CODE of the County of La Paz is concerned, the building inspector himself gets you the construction permits and the registration with CATASTRO. It is a service he provides. His "fees" are higher than if I went and file myself, but hey, he knows the codes, he files the papers, he gets me the permits, he manifests the construction, I save one or two days of work, and I have no hassles. And it is all legal. Just a little mordida, a little bite, a gift. But NOT "to look the other way," as you say, but to facilitate the process and grease the wheels, so to speak...

And of course, when I said "to hire the services of a builder in your area who knows all the rules of that jurisdiction," I thought it was clear that your employee follows your orders and gets all you will need legally to keep you out of trouble. This builder has to be somebody you trust and with impeccable reputation in following the law. He must understand that if he screws up, YOU will be liable.

I thought it was understood that you hire reliable people and you pay for whatever licenses and fees you are assessed for your construction. And for convenience, in this rural district of Todos Santos in the Ayuntamiento de La Paz, the Building Inspector gets a cut of the action directly from you, in exchange for services that save you a heck of a lot of time and headaches.

--Amir

amir - 6-22-2007 at 07:40 AM

Lencho,

My 2 sets of Hungarian grandparents migrated to Argentina in the 1920-1930's.
My parents met in Buenos Aires, Argentina, got married there and had a family.
I was raised in Buenos Aires until I was 13 years old. Then we migrated to New York City. I was naturalized as an American citizen after I joined the US Air Force at 17; served for 4 years in Germany. Then for thirty some years I lived in Eugene, Oregon.
In July of 2006 I migrated to Baja California Sur to resume my Spanish (Castillian) speaking.

It's the gypsy blood running through my veins... Why do you ask?

--Amir

amir - 6-22-2007 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by amir
Just a little mordida, a little bite, a gift. But NOT "to look the other way," as you say, but to facilitate the process and grease the wheels, so to speak...

An important differentiation that probably merits a thread of its own...

--Larry

...so what is your suggestion for the new thread? What's the premise? What question? I too think it is an interesting topic.

shari - 6-22-2007 at 08:01 AM

Here far from the madding crowds there is NO engineer to go to...hmmmm..and heaven forbid we wouldn't want to feed the mordida machine but I gotta tell ya all....a case of beer goes a LOOONGGG way and certainly speeds things up in a friendly manner...with a few cold ones you can get alot done...like grading your lot...fresh fish brought to you...good advice...garbage pick up (my garbage guy doesn't drink but soda and cookies make sure they come around alot.) Let's just say that on the long lists of things the officials have to do...with some booty your job gets put near the top of the list which works for everyone...after all, it's all about priorities. I hate the mordida idea but it is how things have been done here for a very long time and if you don't "cooperate" you are seen as muy codo (cheapskate) and ignorant or kinda rude and obviously arent in a hurry for your project. So a little palm greasing is really just the price of doing business...kinda like a tax in a way...maybe we should call it the expediant tax...definately warrants it's own forum and a worthy discussion for everyone. Yesterday, I needed a lot measured and our land guy was very busy but for a hundred pesos, he drops everything and comes and does it...you do the math. Oh yeah, never heard of building codes here but probably has something to do with gringos???

islandmusicteach - 6-22-2007 at 10:36 AM

Thanks to everyone who contributed!
To LongLegs: Who prepared your EIS and how much did it cost?
To BajaJudy: Thanks for the invite and I'll definitely come by to see the bookstore.
To All: Keen to know your recommendations for engineers/architects living in the SanJose or Los Barriles area, or who work around here. Got a good one you know about??

toneart - 6-22-2007 at 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by amir
In July of 2006 I migrated to Baja California Sur to resume my Spanish (Castillian) speaking.

It's the gypsy blood running through my veins... Why do you ask?

Language acquisition interests me.

So were you using Spanish in Oregon? 30 years away is a loong time, even for a native speaker who's been submerged till adulthood.

--Larry

I am drawn into the inquiries by Lencho, and before by Dennis, as to the real identity of Amir. He is probably who he say he is. But as I search my faulty memory database, the name
b. traven keeps invading my otherwise secure and difficult-to-influence sense of what's what and who's who. Could he be the son of.... :?:

Hint: "Badches? BADCHES? I don't got to show you no stinkin' badches!"

longlegsinlapaz - 6-22-2007 at 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by islandmusicteach
Thanks to everyone who contributed!
To LongLegs: Who prepared your EIS and how much did it cost?
To BajaJudy: Thanks for the invite and I'll definitely come by to see the bookstore.
To All: Keen to know your recommendations for engineers/architects living in the SanJose or Los Barriles area, or who work around here. Got a good one you know about??

"k....what I found out is that there are basis "everywhere" codes, and then different areas can add tighter or more area-specific codes, i.e., Cabo & La Paz would have tighter hurricane-proof structural requirements than say, oh...Hermosillo. They are NOT posted online. I'm supposed to be getting a copy of them scanned & sent to me Monday/Tuesday...once I see what I receive, I'll figure out the best way to get them to you. However, the Ayuntamiento for your area should be able to give you a copy...probably for a fee! Not sure where you're physically located at the moment...North or South of the border.

islandmusicteach, it ain't cheap! Total cost (including the $2,500 peso charge they tossed at me today...for "reforesting cardons somewhere" :rolleyes:

) is roughly $50,000 pesos...I can see why a lot of people choose to take their chances & ignore the EIS requirement!) My builder & I shopped around & found some people who are certified to submit EIS & the Manifestation (two separate people, two separate qualifications) to SEMERNAT. My cost was roughly 50% of what SEMERNAT quoted to do the same work. And I'll tell ya up front, it IS a long process!!

amir - 6-22-2007 at 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Language acquisition interests me.

So were you using Spanish in Oregon? 30 years away is a loong time, even for a native speaker who's been submerged till adulthood.

Lencho,

For 42 years I didn't speak much Spanish. At 13 I started speaking English, and during the 4-year USAF stint in Germany I picked up quite a bit of German, but this last one I've mostly forgotten for lack of practice, but it did affect my pronunciation. When I moved to Todos Santos last year started speaking Spanish again, but because I was 13 when I moved away from Argentina, I speak like a 13 year old, a childish Spanish, but I know the syntax and the verb conjugations and the gender of things and all the rules and nuances. The names of many things are different in Castillian than in Mexican, and here they use a lot of slang and a lot of native Mexican Indian words, but I'm learning fast. I studied chiropractic in English, so patients are now teaching me how to explain all these anatomical and physiological things in Spanish.

I was always interested in languages, and because of my international family, there were many languages spoken at home and family reunions: Hungarian, Yiddish, Spanish, Russian, German, Polish... During high school and college I studied French, Italian, Hebrew, Sanskrit, and Chinese. For 11 years I was a Sikh (a major religion of India) and learned to read the original scriptures in Gurmukhi. But I really don't have a command of any of these languages; I'm only fluent in Spanish and English.

My accent is "interesting." Every language I speak has an accent from somewhere else, and the more I speak of one, the more I distort the other - I think this is due to how we control and develop the tongue and mouth muscles when we speak. My joke about this is that I couldn't be a spy anywhere, because no matter what I say in any language, I sound like a foreigner and not like a native from any original country, and it's always been fun to see people try to guess where I'm from; and I get asked a lot: "Where are you from?" And I don't speak "normally", just like I don't "write" normally, and I am a small person (about 5') and sport a big red beard (although now it's getting a lot of white), so I don't look like any native of any dialect I speak.

Some people on this Board have picked up on my "strangeness" and mysteriousness. If you'd like more details we can U2U so we don't bore the regular audience of these threads...

Thank you for your interest,
--Amir

longlegsinlapaz - 7-3-2007 at 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by islandmusicteach

Well, I finally have another question one of you may be able to help with. Anyone know if Baja Sur building codes are available online? If not, know where to buy em? Or got a code book lying around I can copy and send back to you?

Thanks,
Marko.

Marko, I'm supposed to be getting the building codes on a floppy later today...it's a...uhhhh...rather large file; roughly a 700-page document...do you still want it?? If so, U2U me your e-mail address & I'll be happy to send the file to you.

longlegsinlapaz - 7-3-2007 at 01:49 PM

Larry, you techie gurus

are waaaaay too exacting! I've been out in the hot sun all morning working with my builder on getting my property marked for what goes where...I plead sunstroke!!! Yeah, it's probably a CD, but I hate to give my initials in my posts! :lol:

I prefer to maintain my anonymity! :rolleyes:

Once I get it in my hot little hand, I'll get back to you! That's a nice offer you made to host it if it's not copyrighted!

longlegsinlapaz - 7-4-2007 at 12:09 PM

Larry.....U2U to U! :tumble:

Boy! You folk scared the %$&*( out of me with this one.

Baja Bernie - 7-4-2007 at 05:53 PM

Granted it was in Baja Norte, but I have built three houses in Baja if you don't count the one I remodeled for my father-in-law and I have never seen a building 'code.' I have seen setback and street widths and signing, green space requirement, restrictions on usage of well water, lot lay outs and the need to convert plans from English to Spanish..........and I have found that hiring a professional to get plans approved worked rather well because part of the fee that you pay him IS passed on 'as a gift' to get the plans approved.

I have even seen inspectors but the only thing they care about is that you have paid your social security........I have used a Mexican Contractor and in the first case he charged me for Social Security but failed to pay---learned a lesson here because the fine was 100%.

But I have never seen anything like a building code as we know it in the States

That said, things may be far advanced in Baja Sur and they may actually have a code for the actual building........but I rather doubt it because they are rather restricting things for everyone concerned.

Plans always get changed with no concern shown by the authorities.

And with that I will wait patiently for de judge with de long legs to weigh in.

Yes! As you can see I am very bored and I might attempt to get another life but I rather doubt it. That is my disclaimer and I am sticking to it.

longlegsinlapaz - 7-4-2007 at 08:29 PM

:lol:

Bernie....of yea of little faith! It's a rather large document & Lencho is looking it over to make sure there is no problem to putting it on-line somewhere. Unless it's SUPPOSED to be secret so they can collect fines from us gringos, it appears to be a public consumable document....allllll the pieces of it! So hang in there for Lencho's final determination. He's really impressed with my "find"!

So you got hit with a builder not paying Seguro Social, TOO! I did on my first casa, but I skated free because he'd been dumb enough to put it in writing in my contract that he was responsible to pay! I found out when I went to sell it & just went into SS to verify payment had been made. They (SS) didn't have any record of my job, but happily took the info I provided, gave me a letter staring I was in the clear & could sell my place & went after him!! :bounce:

There is occasional justice in life! :spingrin:

Edit: And yeah...they got codes up Norte too! So lock the door & keep a low profile!

[Edited on 7-5-2007 by longlegsinlapaz]

[Edited on 7-5-2007 by longlegsinlapaz]

So Sad!

Baja Bernie - 7-5-2007 at 09:47 AM

Legs! I doubt that you will ever be able to think like a true Mexican............you clutter your mind with such trivia.........like you could be a lawyer or something..........No, they don't clutter.........they learn where the sources are.......and dig them out whenever they wish to complicate the lives of poor peons like me.

Yes, I guess I will run and hide :tumble:

Hope you had a great 4th

Ken Bondy - 7-5-2007 at 10:11 AM

I recently chaired a task group of the American Concrete Institute (ACI) which developed the first official Spanish language translation of the ACI Building Code (ACI 318S-05). This document, since its publication, has been widely sold and distributed throughout Mexico, Central America, and South America. It is available through ACI (www.aci-int.org), along with the English version. I don't know what legal status it has throughout Mexico, particularly in Baja California. I suspect, as others have opined, that permitting is done largely through the licensed design professional (engineer, architect, surveyor). I am relatively sure that Mexico licenses design professionals but I don't know if that is done locally (state by state, like it is done in the USA) or whether it is done on a national level. I will check with some of my engineer friends in Mexico City and get back with a report to the Nomads. ++Ken++

how about a little grass shack?

islandmusicteach - 7-5-2007 at 10:18 AM

Had some fun looking through those codes

!
Here's something creative... it seems to be legal to build a 40 sq. meter dwelling without the need of an architect or engineer to sign off as long as it's the first construction on a bare lot. Could get cramped though :lol:

:

Articulo 62.- Construcciones que no requieren responsiva de “DRO” :

a).- Reparacion, remodelacion o rehabilitacion de techos o entrepisos con areas menores de 40.00 metros cuadrados y siempre que los claros sean menores de 3.00 metros, y no se afecten elementos estructurales importantes a juicio de “La Autoridad”.
b).- Construccion de bardas de colindancia con altura maxima de 2.00 metros, construidas con especificaciones de seguridad minima proporcionadas por “La Autoridad”.
c).- Edificacion en un predio baldio, por unica vez, de una primera planta de una vivienda unifamiliar no mayor de 40.00 metros cuadrados, altura y claros que no excedan de 3.00 metros.

Ken Bondy - 7-5-2007 at 12:04 PM

I talked with a friend who is a highly respected and experienced structural engineer in Mexico City. He told me that the typical process on any significant structure is that plans (architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical, whatever is needed) are developed by a licensed design professional, typically an architect who is hired by the owner, and who then hires the other design professionals as needed. The plans are submitted to a "municipality", the governing agency in the city/county/etc where the new building is located. Depending on the size of the jurisdiction, the "municipality" could consist of only one or two government officials (individuals), or in larger jurisdictions, the municipality could have an entire "Building Department" responsible for public works. The municipalities rarely do any serious review of the plans prepared by licensed design professionals, they simply collect some fees, file a copy of the plans and calculations, and stamp one set of plans with an "approved" stamp. This stamped set represents the "building permit". Construction can then begin. He said some larger Mexican cities have building inspectors who inspect the work in progress, most do not. Inspection, if any is done, is provided by the owner privately.

Does this bear any resemblance to what you Nomads have seen in Baja?

++Ken++

PS he also said that each city or jurisdiction adopts its own code. For concrete design and construction, the ACI code is used almost universally throughout Mexico.

[Edited on 7-5-2007 by Ken Bondy]

Ken

Baja Bernie - 7-5-2007 at 01:10 PM

40+ years of this and what he has told you has proven true for me in both Tijuana and Ensenada County's............Once you pay and get the stamp almost anything goes.

I know of at least one very large development (no I will not say names) who had no sewer treatment plant on site even though the "plans" call for a total treatment systems.

Most of the stuff I have learned in Baja 'is' that it should stay in Baja.

Just looking at the mix of commericial and residential should tell a bit of the story.

longlegsinlapaz - 7-5-2007 at 08:44 PM

Thank you Larry!!! You DID translate them, didn't ya? :tumble:

Bernie....DON'T LOOK!!!!! It'll just make you curl up into a fetal position! :lol:

Trying real hard to be :saint:

!!!