BajaNomad - Senate immigration bill suffers crushing defeat

Senate immigration bill suffers crushing defeat

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Taco de Baja - 6-28-2007 at 09:41 AM

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush's immigration bill suffered a crushing defeat Thursday in the Senate, when members voted against advancing the controversial legislation.

The tally was 46 to 53, 14 votes shy of the 60 needed to end debate.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/28/immigration.congress/...

toneart - 6-28-2007 at 10:36 AM

There will never be an immigration bill that satisfies everybody. Compromise seems impossible due to polemics and agendas within agendas within agendas. The word, "amnesty" became a rallying point that was an inaccurate label; a tactic we have seen to be so effective time after time.

The reality is: the fence is too costly and wouldn't work anyway.

There is no way to round up all the illegals and transport them back across the border. It is too late for that and it is too far out of control. Hey, you already like tacos, Corona and margaritas. The culture is already pervasive. Get used to it and move over.

As I have said in many past posts, let market conditions take care of it. If the jobs aren't here, most will go back to their country and their families. Right now, the job opportunities are greatly diminished because the housing market, and therefore the construction industry has slowed down. The construction industry needs to regulate itself by imposing standards for skilled positions. The standards already in place. They just need to be adhered to. To take this beyond one industry, again, stop hiring illegals!

Mexican labor is still needed to fill the unskilled jobs, i.e. agriculture, healthcare, restaurant bussing and dishwashing and domestic work. If an American citizen really wants any of these menial jobs, jump in. The same goes for skilled positions. If a Mexican is here legally and is trained and qualified for a skilled position, jump in. Just don't exploit the Mexican as cheap labor. :coolup:

Head Em Up and Move Em Out !

MrBillM - 6-28-2007 at 11:47 AM

"Rollin, Rollin, Rollin. Rawhide."

A good starting point would be the Home Depots that were featured on the TV news the past few days where each vehicle pulling into the parking lot was MOBBED by Plaintive Day Workers seeking employment. Anyone seeking employment is required to present their legal documents. I did. Simply demand their docs and arrest those who can't produce.

Speaking of those Home Depots, a major problem in some local communities is that they are requiring the Vendor to put in Air-Conditioned waiting rooms with Restroom facilities for the Illegals. One community required Home Depot to place a Lawyer on retainer to protect the Immigrant rights. A Failed amendment to the FAILED Bill would have exercised Federal pre-emption in that area.

Unfixable ? I don't think so. As another writer put the problem "The country that created the Manhattan Project and won WWII should be able to get control of its borders".

WHERE'S THE FENCE?

woody with a view - 6-28-2007 at 11:50 AM

line the border with the type of fence along tj. concrete poles 35 feet high that you can't easily dig under or scale, much less squeeze through a hole that's been cut! put cameras with overlapping coverage along the length so when someone tries to get across you can put border agents on scene quickly. the cost would be miniscule (sp.) compared to the savings to our health care, educational, correctional, and welfare systems over the next generation. stop the flood and deal then with what's here already...

WHERE'S THE FENCE?

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 12:00 PM

Yeah ....... Where's the fence? I want to see the fence we've been promised, by law.
I mentioned the idea in a previous post that the fence should be placed a short distance in from the border line. That way, if anybody even gets close enough to smell the fence, he has already invaded our country.
Do what has to be done. I don't care if I never have strawberrys again and if I had a pool that needed cleaning, I would clean it myself. I already clean my own toilet. I hope that's not an illegal act.

Cypress - 6-28-2007 at 12:24 PM

I'm done with Bush. Other than selecting a conservative supreme court judge or two, he's more or less useless. This immigration fiasco, highlights how dumb our so-called leaders in the USA are. :no:

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
I'm done with Bush. Other than selecting a conservative supreme court judge or two, he's more or less useless. This immigration fiasco, highlights how dumb our so-called leaders in the USA are. :no:

So true. Our leaders are leading us into the crapper. Lee Harvey Oswald should have waited. He shot the wrong Kennedy.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 12:44 PM

That bill had opposition and support from all sides---tis not an easy issue and it is always about economic issues --- using any mention of security is a joke.

But from the above posts, and many others, I guess many of you would not like our "Impeach Cheney First" bumper sticker that is below our "Got Baja?" sticker.

Opps, I have stayed away from politics on this board, but I guess I slipped.

Diane

Al G - 6-28-2007 at 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

So true. Our leaders are leading us into the crapper. Lee Harvey Oswald should have waited. He shot the wrong Kennedy.

Amen Brother....

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 12:51 PM

Diane ------

That's interesting. If one is for amnesty, it's an economic issue. If one is against amnesty, it's a moral issue.
Makes it difficult to compromise.
I like the Cheney bumper sticker. I liked the idea six years ago. Too bad it won't happen.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Diane ------

That's interesting. If one is for amnesty, it's an economic issue. If one is against amnesty, it's a moral issue.
Makes it difficult to compromise.
I like the Cheney bumper sticker. I liked the idea six years ago. Too bad it won't happen.

Guess we can't impeach Cheney because he is not a part of the executive branch. He is a part of some unknown branch of government that he created, and our Constitution, ---the one Cheney shreds---does not provide for impeaching members of this new undefined branch of government.

Yes, to be against amnesty is a moral issue, IMHO --- But the unlying issue is still economic, I believe. When cheap labor was needed, and the middle class was doing well, the government just let the immigration happen.

We used to watch the INS bus show up at the end of harvest season in the Central Valley of California. It was all a quiet understanding. Workers came, and then got a free ride back to the border so they could go home and visit their families until the next year.

Yes, it is different now as the undocumented workers are now in many more industries and while the overall nation's economy is doing well, the middle class worker is slipping---the wealth distribution curve has changed. Thus, the undocumented worker is blamed.

The cycle has been repeated several times throughout our history, and far too often the moral or human side is ignored in favor of money.

When we lived in Calexico, they had a saying there to the effect that "we and our families did not cross the fence, the fence crossed us." But on the other hand, most of my high school students were anti-immigration, and anti-any worker program because the part time jobs were all taken,

Never an easy question, unless one is George W. Bush who only thinks in simple terms---his friends need cheap labor.

Diane

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 01:14 PM

Diane ----

Coming out, as you have just done, may be cathartic. Give us more.

I only said that Cheney won't be impeached because I don't think there is enough time left to do that. I can only hope that the efforts continue. Another moral issue.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Diane ----

Coming out, as you have just done, may be cathartic. Give us more.

I only said that Cheney won't be impeached because I don't think there is enough time left to do that. I can only hope that the efforts continue. Another moral issue.

You are so right! I am claustrophobic and the closet was dark.

Frankly, if Congress really had the will, I think there would be time to Impeach Cheney, I just think they are afraid to do so---afraid of some political backlash.

Instead there is lots of outraged talk. It is like so many things have happened that trashes our Constitution and Rule of Law, that people are numb. But, I never give up hope and a few members in Congress do not seem to be backing off.

Where is Sam Irwin when we need him!

Diane

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Frankly, if Congress really had the will,

The only will congress has now is the will of the campaign managers.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Frankly, if Congress really had the will,

The only will congress has now is the will of the campaign managers.

And it too is in a large part economically driven----need public campaign financing.

wornout - 6-28-2007 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover
They come for a paycheck.

Employers issue them to save a buck...

Have we made the slightest effort to enforce the laws on the books prohibiting employment of illegals?

The politicians know they should make an attempt to do just that, but, then they would be cutting off the hand that feeds them and you know neither side in power would do that. And that, my fellow nomads, is really the root of the whole problem.

Hook - 6-28-2007 at 02:34 PM

Now that this political feel-good football has had the air let out of it, maybe we can get back to ENFORCING THE DAMN IMMIGRATION LAWS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS !!!!!!!!

If ever there was an issue that highlights why campaigning should be publicly financed; it's this one. It's union money and big business money trying their damndest to buy politicians. Problem is, for the first time in a long time, senators actually LISTENED to their constituents at home. I commend some of those grass-roots organizations with this victory, however temporary it may be.

What a concept............government for the people.

Now, watch, the government will go back to looking the other way when it comes to the border.

[Edited on 6-28-2007 by Hook]

[Edited on 6-28-2007 by Hook]

Hook - 6-28-2007 at 03:06 PM

How bout our good senators get to work now on repealing the law that grants children of illegal aliens, full citizenship status. It' not practical to make it retroactive, but how about moving forward?

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
How bout our good senators get to work now on repealing the law that grants children of illegal aliens, full citizenship status. It' not practical to make it retroactive, but how about moving forward?

That would require an Amendment to our Constitution---unless Cheney can find another way around it. :tumble:

Besides, lots of countries grant citizenship to someone born within the country. One of our cousin's boys is a citizen of the US---via his father---Columbia---via his mother---Spain--where he was born.

Think it would be a very bad idea to change the Consitution in this way.

Diane and John

Crusoe - 6-28-2007 at 04:08 PM

Do any of you "NOMADS" think you live in a free "SOCIETY"????? If you do, you have been on some sort of "Dumb Medication" to long..........The key word here is....... EXECUTIVE PRVILIDGE........ Dick Cheeney and George Bush will do anything they dam$ well please...... peroid. C

Hook - 6-28-2007 at 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Quote:

That would require an Amendment to our Constitution---unless Cheney can find another way around it. :tumble:

Were they legally in the US, though? That's the key......with other countries, as well.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 04:20 PM

Anchor babies are such a small part of the big picture. A flea on an elephants butt.
What matters most, at this point, is to stop the bleeding at the border.
We can learn a way to deal with the illegals in place.
Amnesty had better not happen but, what do we do?
Lets forget, for the moment, about what we have brought upon ourselves and concentrate on what we don't want more of. Lets scream and yell about a controlled border. If we can be in charge of our perimeter, we may have some idea of how to take control of the rest of our country.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crusoe
Do any of you "NOMADS" think you live in a free "SOCIETY"????? If you do, you have been on some sort of "Dumb Medication" to long..........The key word here is....... EXECUTIVE PRVILIDGE........ Dick Cheeney and George Bush will do anything they dam$ well please...... peroid. C

Right next to our "Impeach Cheney First" bumper sticker is one that says "Ignore your Rights and They Will Go Away"

Diane

Hook - 6-28-2007 at 04:38 PM

I disagree completely, Dennis. They are NOT a small part of the big picture because:

1-anchor babies are a huge part of the motivation for many illegal immigrant women.

2-the problem can multiply exponentially once they are here. Try stopping the breech sometime if you think a border is hard to close?

Taking away motivations to cross is cheaper than building a fence.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Quote:

That would require an Amendment to our Constitution---unless Cheney can find another way around it. :tumble:

Were they legally in the US, though? That's the key......with other countries, as well.

Hook,
The 14th Amendment is very clear in stating that all persons born in the United States are citizens. However, I suppose like everything, that could change.

Afterall, the 14th Amendment is the first time gender is specifically addressed in the Constitution. It refers to males. Thus, up until 1922, women born in the US who married foreigners lost their citizenship. Even if the foreigner was legally living in the US, the wifes citizenship was based on the husband's. The children were basically under the father's citizenship untill they reached adulthood at which time they could chose.

We really don't have a problem with those born here being citizens. We agree with Dennis, it is not a huge problem, except for the separation of family issues.

We both used to be in favor of open borders, but not so much anymore for many reasons. Amnesty? Mixed feelings on that one. Secure borders? Yes, probably a good idea---all borders, not just the southern one. Also, from what we have read, the majority of undocumented people in the US crossed the border legally---student, work, day, visa, etc.

No easy answers.

John and Diane

And then what?

Dave - 6-28-2007 at 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover
Have we made the slightest effort to enforce the laws on the books prohibiting employment of illegals?

Would everyone just pack up and head south?

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 04:51 PM

Executive privelige is just that.

Power abuse is just that.

Cheney/Bush have been called dictators by most everybody in the freakin world. Everybody except us because we are so apathetic that we have lost our soul. We have no sense of right and wrong. We just follow our elected idiots. We don't care what they say. We don't care what they do. We just want to live our very private lives and leave all that nasty nonsense to them.

We are the problem.....not the politicians or elected leaders. We let them do what they do.
Then, we vote them in again.

We are reaping what we have sown.

What now, folks?

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

No easy answers.

John and Diane

Nope. None. Thats because congress won't drop their personal agendas and do what is necessary for the well-being of the country. I get this picture of a hundred senators standing on a bluff in the face of a strong wind, trying to take a leak. I can only wish that would happen.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 05:25 PM

Oh yeah ---
I guess Hillary will have to be propped-up from the rear to get that angle. Probably wouldn't be the first time.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 05:28 PM

Im doing stand-up to an empty room, huh.

The Gospel according to Saint Anne

MrBillM - 6-28-2007 at 05:38 PM

Watching Ann Coulter a few minutes back, she had a three-point answer to the Immigration fiasco.

Point Three was MASSIVE Employer sanctions. Asked for an example, she said "Give the Illegal Alien Standing to sue the employer and collect punitive damages for violating employment law, including the minimum wage law".

See how many employers are willing to hire on the sly if being caught would bankrupt them.

The one downside is that it would be a boon to the gutter-crawling lawyers, but we could live with that.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 05:47 PM

Ann Coulter is nuts. Probably has a couple as well.
Her out-of-touch statements remind me of Nancy Regan when she said that she couldn't understand why people were homeless because all they had to do was buy a condo.

TMW - 6-28-2007 at 05:49 PM

What law did Bush and Cheney break? What legal expert said they did? Every president has had those who say he broke this law or that law. After watergate congress (mostly Dem.) passed laws to reduce or control the presidents power and after 911 congress (mostly Rep.) passed laws that gave him more power. Only when the Supreme Court decides an issue is it settled at least for the time being. If your upset about the wire taps, I don't have a problem with the gov. tapping some overseas phone call without a court order, especially if it's to a country where terrorist are. That's an issue lawyers can argue about.

Cypress - 6-28-2007 at 06:00 PM

Impeach Cheney? On what grounds? :biggrin:

Payback for the Clinton impeachment? :biggrin:

Dream on.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
What law did Bush and Cheney break? What legal expert said they did? Every president has had those who say he broke this law or that law. After watergate congress (mostly Dem.) passed laws to reduce or control the presidents power and after 911 congress (mostly Rep.) passed laws that gave him more power. Only when the Supreme Court decides an issue is it settled at least for the time being. If your upset about the wire taps, I don't have a problem with the gov. tapping some overseas phone call without a court order, especially if it's to a country where terrorist are. That's an issue lawyers can argue about.

Forget the finite wording of the law. We don't live by the exact stink and smell of the interpretations, which have no end. We live by the consequenses.

Are you supporting this administration in their lies about WMD?
Are you saying we live in a safer world for our entry into the Middle East?
Are you saying democracy is for everybody?
Do you think implementing our system in Iraq has been worth the thousands of lost lives... for nothing?

Your support of these tyrants tells me you believe all of this.
How can you?

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Ann Coulter is nuts. Probably has a couple as well.
Her out-of-touch statements remind me of Nancy Regan when she said that she couldn't understand why people were homeless because all they had to do was buy a condo.

Ah yes, let them eat cake!

Sadly, however, Marie Antoinette probably never actually said that, but she could be excused in some ways out of being totally ignorant---not stupid, just ignorant.

Ann Coulter, on the other hand, should replace the cross around her neck with a $.

Nancy Reagan was so out of touch--her just say no to drugs was so without reality.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Ah yes, let them eat cake!

Actually, Nancy said she said, "Let them eat Krispy Kreams."

Such an understanding woman. I suppose we can be thankful that Ronny's adminstration wasn't in place in the 90's. Nancy might have been a presidential candidate.

oldhippie - 6-28-2007 at 06:36 PM

Junior and DICK are now, finally, irrelevant. As it's turning out, they're the best thing that ever happened to the liberal cause.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Ah yes, let them eat cake!

Actually, Nancy said she said, "Let them eat Krispy Kreams."

That was right along with Ronnie's Jelly Bellys!

More sugar, please, and let's come to an agreement, said Ronnie.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Junior and DICK are now, finally, irrelevant. As it's turning out, they're the best thing that ever happened to the liberal cause.

OH, we hold our breath.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Junior and DICK are now, finally, irrelevant. As it's turning out, they're the best thing that ever happened to the liberal cause.

My cause is anything but liberal. Because of these two buttcracks, my cause is humanistic. Far and away from any party line.

oldhippie - 6-28-2007 at 07:09 PM

Dennis, let me know when a humanist runs for President. It's largely a liberal/conservative decision, financial and social policy. Junior's legacy is the conservative Supreme Court he's left behind.

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Dennis, let me know when a humanist runs for President. It's largely a liberal/conservative decision, financial and social policy. Junior's legacy is the conservative Supreme Court he's left behind.

I'm glad to hear that..... about his legacy, I mean. Hopefully they will make studied decisions, conservative or otherwise.
I have never questioned my conservatism till Bush shambled my beliefs. His administration is a mutation, a cancer in the structure of our two party system. It's a sponsered dictatorship.
I'm not one of the sponsers.

DianaT - 6-28-2007 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Dennis, you are a real conservative. We are on the liberal side, and lament the days when we could sincerely discusss, argue, and disagree with conservatives.

We truly miss the old Rebublicans with whom we could disagree in a civil manner---we all were patriots, just ones with a different view. What we have now, is way outside of the box.

Diane

The Gull - 6-28-2007 at 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Now that this political feel-good football has had the air let out of it, maybe we can get back to ENFORCING THE DAMN IMMIGRATION LAWS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS !!!!!!!!

Ditto

Crusoe - 6-28-2007 at 08:21 PM

Alerte !!!!!-- Alerte....!!!!!..........We do not live any form of a free country here in the U.S.A. ...... Never was their ever been an honest election that put George Bush and Dick Cheney in office and put them in a position to take advantage of every tax dollar. They did not win a fair election.And they and their supporters find themselves where they are today. I am from Wyoming and know the past record of the Cheney clan. The Cheney clan were near neighbors. They were always a clan of lazy slobs. They had absolutely no friends..... Always lived off ranching subsidies. With this administrationn what we have is a type of public downtrodding and poltical power abuse and is just more evidence what this country has turned into......Just look around at your next trip to Costco. So many older people that are so fat they can hardly walk. All they really want to do is just consume some more, and more, more. Without even thinking of the consequences!!!!!! We need to take care of the things we love, no matter how small!!!! Small birds,and flowers and what makes us all so attracted to the SEA OF CORTEZ and each time we see a beautiful pristine beach..... and the wild "Pacific Ocean" we instintively know that is why we are their there. Just think about and focus on the panorama that is so fragile.Please treat it as the the most delicate place you could ever want to be. It really is..... Just ask any scorpion. Or... shark. ++C++

DENNIS - 6-28-2007 at 08:31 PM

Right-on, Crusoe.............Thanks

Baja_Girl - 6-29-2007 at 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crusoe
We need to take care of the things we love, no matter how small!!!! Small birds,and flowers and what makes us all so attracted to the SEA OF CORTEZ and each time we see a beautiful pristine beach..... and the wild "Pacific Ocean" we instintively know that is why we are their there. Just think about and focus on the panorama that is so fragile.Please treat it as the the most delicate place you could ever want to be. It really is..... Just ask any scorpion. Or... shark. ++C++

beautifully stated...I don't follow immigration laws, except that I know that Mexican immigrants, legal, illegal, resident, non-resident, are here to stay in So. Cal. The notion of rounding everyone up and deporting, prosecuting, etc. is absurd.

Every once in a while, I run across this riddle and I thinks it fits this conumdrum: In Heaven and Hell, the spoons and forks are soooo long that no one can feed themselves. It is impossible. In Hell, everyone is starving and miserable. In Heaven, everyone is nourished and happy. How come?

TMW - 6-29-2007 at 06:52 AM

Just what I thought. A lot of hot air from a bunch of looney tunes. All opinion and no facts.

Calling a spade a spade

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 07:02 AM

The thing that bothered me the most about the recent immigation debate was calling what was proposed "amnesty". Amnesty was never proposed.

amnesty - the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals.

pardon - the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty.

I believe the penalty that was proposed for those here illegally was $5000 and years of more or less probationary legal status. Therefore, amnesty was not proposed. A fine and probation are common penalities for criminal offenses.

There are 3 courses of action for those here illegally:
1. round them up and send them back,
2. put them in jail, or
3. let them stay.

The first two are not feasible. Letting the illegals here now stay is the only option, and imposing a penalty for past transgressions is a reasonable thing to do.

But, the amnesty fear mongers won because the average American doesn't really understand the language he or she speaks.

[Edited on 6-29-2007 by oldhippie]

Crusoe - 6-29-2007 at 07:11 AM

TW........After you wake up from your "Dumb Medication Transe"........you may recall the ........FACT........ Our second in command while on a bird hunting soray with an alcohol level over the legal driving limit shot his hunting partner in the face...... Please take care when you are in Baja of all the little defenseless things. Please do not forget the ........Fact.........You are just a guest here, for a very short time. The environment is way more important than you!!!!! Get yourself educated and.......Enjoy...... ++C++ :light:

Crusoe

DianaT - 6-29-2007 at 07:59 AM

I sure owe you an apology---I really misread your one post. Now after reading your last two posts, I understand.

Maybe if I had not avoided all things political before, I would have know better who you are.

Diane

DENNIS - 6-29-2007 at 08:02 AM

Oldorwellian...........

Semantics are no disguise for the absurd. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you shouldn't be calling it a German Shepard.

George Orwell had the solution to your discomfort with the word, "Amnesty." Remember Newspeak? Get rid of the word and you get rid of the concept. Get rid of the concept and it no longer exists.
So, there you are. Ban the word.
None the less.......a duck is still a duck and amnesty is amnesty. I do agree with you, however. There is no other viable solution. Lying to ourselves and each other about what it is doesn't make the inevitable more palatable.

Taco de Baja - 6-29-2007 at 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
The thing that bothered me the most about the recent immigation debate was calling what was proposed "amnesty". Amnesty was never proposed.

amnesty - the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals.

pardon - the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty.

I believe the penalty that was proposed for those here illegally was $5000 and years of more or less probationary legal status. Therefore, amnesty was not proposed. A fine and probation are common penalities for criminal offenses.

There are 3 courses of action for those here illegally:
1. round them up and send them back,
2. put them in jail, or
3. let them stay.

[Edited on 6-29-2007 by oldhippie]

It was Amnesty.
Do you honestly believe the government would collect even $0.01 from the "new citizens". No, the gov would eventually forgive the fine, just like we forgive "loans" to certain countries. They would claim the fine was forgiven because it would cause undo hardship on the hard working “new Americans” still doing the work that “old Americans” will not do....

Yes we have 3 choices on what to do with the illegals that are here. Choice 3 is the best. But we also have to fine and jail employers who hire the illegals who stay, or may come in the future.

Then the Illegals will have 3 choices:
1. Stay and have no money, because no one will hire them.
2. Return to their county of birth, and try to change it for the better.
3. Go to Canada to find work.

[Edited on 6-29-2007 by Taco de Baja]

DENNIS - 6-29-2007 at 08:18 AM

It's hard to imagine that the stooopid fine would be forgiven. It would show a weakness on the part of our "take charge" government.
Nope. No forgiveness. They will pay for their sins. Period.
Although, our government will surely decide to ease the burden of punishment to making payments of, oh...lets say, thirty cents per month. We wouldn't want to upset their remittances.

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 08:22 AM

I don't care what you guys say. It was not amnesty. And Taco, of your three options, number one is what the majority will do. Great, millions of people with no money. That's a fine kettle of carnitas.

It was amnesty

The Gull - 6-29-2007 at 08:35 AM

Taco de Baja - 6-29-2007 at 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
And Taco, of your three options, number one is what the majority will do. Great, millions of people with no money. That's a fine kettle of carnitas.

Kind of like why they all stayed in their birth country, because no one would hire them and they had no money..... :rolleyes:

People follow the money.

Heck, if I could get a job in Canada or Mexico paying me in an hour what I make in a day here, and there were no consequences...I'd consider it, and ship as much $$ back home as I could, and tell all my friends “to come on down!”

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Heck, if I could get a job in Canada or Mexico paying me in an hour what I make in a day here, and there were no consequences...I'd consider it, and ship as much $$ back home as I could, and tell all my friends “to come on down!”

I wish you success.

Yakking Yuck

MrBillM - 6-29-2007 at 09:02 AM

The Looney Tunes Lefties are destined to disappointment. Nobody is going to be impeached and it is tearing at their Liberal souls. Wait. Scratch that. The dedicated Libs don't believe in the Soul. Anyway, their going to me miserable because Bush and/or Cheney aren't going to join Wanker Willie in the Dock. Let them rattle, though, it is cathartic and they aren't affecting anything.

It should be mentioned, however, in this Debate over Good and Evil (Politicians, that is) that the same polls who show GWB approval in the low 30s (Cheney 40s) among the American people also show Congress as a whole at an all-time low of 15 percent . Even more interesting is that they show the Head Dems, King Harry and Nasty Nancy, below 20 percent approval. Based on what the American people think, I guess we should be pushing for the Dark Duo to be thrown out of Congress.

Speaking of Saint Anne, she is honest about her approach to controversy. When Bill O'Reilly asked her if she didn't think that the Edwards comments had backfired because he was raising a lot of money based on her attack, she said "No, because I'm making a lot more money off of it than he is".

Love that Gal.

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 09:12 AM

Taco, I had to make the wise crack, it's my nature.

I have a job in Mexico and make in one hour what others make in one day.

Not to confuse the issue.

DianaT - 6-29-2007 at 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The Looney Tunes Lefties are destined to disappointment. Nobody is going to be impeached and it is tearing at their Liberal souls. Wait. Scratch that. The dedicated Libs don't believe in the Soul. Anyway, their going to me miserable because Bush and/or Cheney aren't going to join Wanker Willie in the Dock. Let them rattle, though, it is cathartic and they aren't affecting anything.

It should be mentioned, however, in this Debate over Good and Evil (Politicians, that is) that the same polls who show GWB approval in the low 30s (Cheney 40s) among the American people also show Congress as a whole at an all-time low of 15 percent . Even more interesting is that they show the Head Dems, King Harry and Nasty Nancy, below 20 percent approval. Based on what the American people think, I guess we should be pushing for the Dark Duo to be thrown out of Congress.

Speaking of Saint Anne, she is honest about her approach to controversy. When Bill O'Reilly asked her if she didn't think that the Edwards comments had backfired because he was raising a lot of money based on her attack, she said "No, because I'm making a lot more money off of it than he is".

Love that Gal.

Thank you MrBill. Now I remember why I have avoided all political topics in the past and will again withdraw. Name calling, distorted representations that simply mimic the hate mongers close the door on any intelligent and reasonable debate.

Diane

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 09:17 AM

"The Looney Tunes Lefties are destined to disappointment."

Looney Tunes are one of my favorite things. In fact I have them on DVD and watch them instead of the evening news.

"destined" Oh, really! Do you believe in such a thing?

[Edited on 6-29-2007 by oldhippie]

woody with a view - 6-29-2007 at 09:26 AM

WHERE'S THE FENCE? :!:

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 09:35 AM

At the border :!:

Enjoying Looney Tunes ?

MrBillM - 6-29-2007 at 09:42 AM

Well, that says it all, I guess. Nothing I can add to that

Wishing for a return to youthful innocence ? Or just avoiding dealing with the present ? By all means, avoid the news and form your opinions without input.

From Diane:

Thank you MrBill. Now I remember why I have avoided all political topics in the past and will again withdraw. Name calling, distorted representations that simply mimic the hate mongers close the door on any intelligent and reasonable debate.
Diane
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm assuming from the above that Diane detests Bill Maher, Rosie O'Donnel, Whoopi and the other Leftwing name-callers in "Hoolywood" and DC.

Sure.

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 09:49 AM

http://www.wheresthefence.com/StateAds.htm

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
By all means, avoid the news and form your opinions without

Oh come on, I watch the PBS news hour every night. However, Looney Tunes are the best cartoons ever made.

DENNIS - 6-29-2007 at 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
WHERE'S THE FENCE? :!:

DENNIS - 6-29-2007 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Thank you MrBill. Now I remember why I have avoided all political topics in the past and will again withdraw. Name calling, distorted representations that simply mimic the hate mongers close the door on any intelligent and reasonable debate.

Diane

Stick around, Diane. You have a lot to say. MrBill is just being MrBill. He's kinda like a rock in your shoe. When it gets too annoying, sit down, shake it out and carry on but, don't throw the shoes away.
If "point - counter point" discussion is at all useful, MrBill is a good one to spar with. Under all his John Birch Society nastiness, he hides a lot of knowledge and has no reluctance to share.

Taco de Baja - 6-29-2007 at 12:08 PM

I see currently Harry Reid is favorable at just 19%....Right down there with good 'ol Scooter..... :lol:

Heck, Cheney's favorable rating is TWICE that....

Rasmussen

I am sure, but did not look too hard for it on Rasmussen (

) that all the 12 "Grand Bargainers" Reid, Feinstein, Kennedy, Kyl, Graham, et al….have had their favorable ratings drop over this bill. In addition, McCain is now probably DOA as a presidential candidate…..

Cypress - 6-29-2007 at 12:29 PM

This whole immigration issue has turned into a bad joke. :lol:

Just enforce the laws that are already on the books. :light:

It's a sad reflection on the so-called elected leaders in Washington DC. :no:

Baja_Girl - 6-29-2007 at 03:38 PM

Who are the Looney Tunes?

Those of us who look around and see people all around us who may or may not be "illegal immigrants" - and say "Let's do something constructive to make this economically fair to everyone."

...or the Conservatives who say "let's enforce laws" - which are inherently flawed and unenforceable and UNenforced for too many reasons to be listed in one posting.

Face it: there is NO FENCE long enough, strong enough, high enough, or dangerous enough to keep people out if they think they have half a chance of a better life in the US.

Face it: there is no governmental entity which has the organizational resources and skills to round everyone up that violate the laws, and

Anyone who thinks that "a law" is going to change the borders, or who crosses them, and when, is not dealing with reality.

DENNIS - 6-29-2007 at 03:46 PM

Your right. The fence, as a barrier to illegl immigration, is a joke. It won't work but, that's not the point. My point is that the fence was ordered by law and the law is being ignored by the government. They have to do what the laws says they have to do. I do what the law says I have to do, so should the president.

The Gull - 6-29-2007 at 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
Who are the Looney Tunes?

Those of us who look around and see people all around us who may or may not be "illegal immigrants" - and say "Let's do something constructive to make this economically fair to everyone."

...or the Conservatives who say "let's enforce laws" - which are inherently flawed and unenforceable and UNenforced for too many reasons to be listed in one posting.

Face it: there is NO FENCE long enough, strong enough, high enough, or dangerous enough to keep people out if they think they have half a chance of a better life in the US.

Face it: there is no governmental entity which has the organizational resources and skills to round everyone up that violate the laws, and

Anyone who thinks that "a law" is going to change the borders, or who crosses them, and when, is not dealing with reality.

Following this logic, all the prisons in the US should be emptied, because bad people are going to do bad things and there aren't enough resources to stop them.

Pasadena has so many asylum escapees these days, one hardly knows about one's safety.

oldhippie - 6-29-2007 at 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
Who are the Looney Tunes?

DENNIS - 6-29-2007 at 05:54 PM

Looney Tunes....... For kids of all ages. You can tell by the pistol in the bottom of the picture.

oldhippie - 6-30-2007 at 05:31 AM

That's not a pistol, it's a hydraulic space modulator, jeez.

Baja_Girl - 6-30-2007 at 07:54 AM

Where's the fence?

I happen to like watching t.v. and admit it...there was a great show on HBO featuring Penn and Teller - called BullSh*t - and they identify and mock things like, "the fence."

They hired 4 Mexicans to build a fence to the same specifications as the border fence. Then, they handed each man a wire clipper and told one to go over, one to go around, one to go under and one to go through the fence - like a race.

They each finished in less than 3 minutes in this order: around, over, under, through.

is building "a fence" really how you want your tax dollars to be spent?

btw, I LOVE the humor and opinions on this posting...very smart and very funny.

mucho mas besos y abrazos no matter whether or not you are a Looney Tune...I prefer Fractured Fairytales myself but....

TMW - 6-30-2007 at 08:56 AM

There are no specs for a border fence. If you look at the fence at TJ it is different that the one at Tecate and Mexicali. Any specs will be made when the job is being put to bid. A physical fence would most likely be placed in areas of population such as near cities and a virtual fence, meaning sensors, cameras, drones, etc. in the more remote areas. Any barrier that slows the crossers down and/or IDs their location so they may be picked up I think is the objective. Short of a barrier that would kill someone near it, you cannot stop someone from getting pass it. To slow down the attemps the job market needs to be slowed down. Enforce the existing laws ie: nail the employer who hires them and the border problem becomes much easier to control. O tolerance on anyone hiring an illegal, be it a farmer, factory, business of any kind or individual, and see how quick the problem goes away.

TMW - 6-30-2007 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover

Quote:

Originally posted by TW...Enforce the existing laws ie: nail the employer who hires them and the border problem becomes much easier to control. O tolerance on anyone hiring an illegal, be it a farmer, factory, business of any kind or individual, and see how quick the problem goes away.

Even quicker:

New asset-forfeiture legislation.

Remember how effective it was on druggies? They had to post a bond equal to the seizure to even challenge it in court.

We're a little in the red right now; why not grab some assets?

I'm all for it.

Fencing Positions

MrBillM - 6-30-2007 at 09:31 AM

In order to maintain some order among the anti-fence crowd, I suggest they propose their conflicting arguments on alternate days so that we know which position they have at any moment.

On the one hand, it is argued that the existing fence accomplishes nothing and is simple to circumvent.

Their alternate argument is that the fence (especially in the San Diego area) has forced the illegal immigration farther inland into more hostile Desert landscape resulting in multitudes of immigrant deaths.

If it's ineffective, why bother ?

Baja_Girl - 6-30-2007 at 09:36 AM

...enforcing the laws against employers...seizing assets of citizens who are otherwise law-abiding, providing revenue to governments, keeping people fed and maybe even insured...you must be kidding. Your "laws" would shut down most restaurants in Los Angeles...I am in downtown los angeles all the time - my work territory is just about the entire county - and I can SEE that there is NO way anyone is going to inspect every business on every corner of every block...this may be different in other cities north of here, but if the plan is to sanction businesses in San Diego or Los Angeles - furgitaboutit. Silly plan. Will NEVER happen.

Mexitron - 6-30-2007 at 09:39 AM

I think it would be not be that hard to "round up" the illegals if we really wanted to do it...building a border fence equal to the concrete pillar type in TJ along the entire border is small potatoes financially when you compare it with the Iraq war, which at least some people in this country are freely happy to spend money on.

The dirty little secret though is that the government wants the illegals here--they provide cheap labor and enough pay into the Social Security System to make it worthwhile(In the last seven years not once did the government protest when I sent in taxes on my couple illegal workers-yes I've employed illegals when there was no one else to find and yes they paid their taxes).
Plus, the porous border is part of a slow transition into a North American Trade Alliance with Mexico and Canada. In short, our government does not want to enforce the border.

Everything's going to cost more if we close the border--no skin off my back since my wages would probably double due to lack of supply of labor...I'm happy to do the work myself--but when you're competing with many people including corporations who use the cheap labor its a lot harder to make a buck.

oldhippie - 6-30-2007 at 11:51 AM

I wonder how much money the beltway lobbyists for the apparel, fruit and vegetable, meatpacking, and construction industries, all of which use (depend upon) illegal migrant labor, spent "convincing" Congress to defeat the latest attempt at immigration reform.

oldhippie - 6-30-2007 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Taco, I had to make the wise crack, it's my nature.

I have a job in Mexico and make in one hour what others make in one day.

Care to tell us what job that is?

Saludos-- Larry

I sell tunnel boring equipment here in TJ. Better make that fence as deep as it is high!! And please build it. No need for tunnels if there aren't fences to go under. I have to snicker at the "electronic" fences. hahahah Do you know how easy it is to get under those?

Actually my work is transcendental. I work in cyberpspace, it transcends borders.

DENNIS - 6-30-2007 at 01:29 PM

Good. Close every restaurant in Los Angeles..............except the Pantry.

Bajafun777 - 6-30-2007 at 05:03 PM

Nothing, Repeat Nothing is going to happen in the area of an Immigration Bill being passed by our government. Who wants to lose their government pension for something so big that if it stays going around and around in a circle they can talk it to death. So, liberals and conservatives can all rest easy and keep a sharp eye out for each other but nothing is going to happen. Too many lobbists, too many guest speaking engagements with big money, and too stressful for our elected government officials to handle. The elected officials would much rather keep the heat on the streets and on television as it just keeps going in circles, just ask "Willie" like the song says. I just want some peace and enjoyable days with the time I may have left and I cannot let elected officials take that away from me with their nonesense of running in circles. No fight Be Happy life is too short to take ourselves serious anymore, as no one else does. Just ask the 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants!!!!!! Later-----Bajafun777

oldhippie - 6-30-2007 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Actually my work is transcendental. I work in cyberpspace, it transcends borders.

Yeah, the Internet is enabling some interesting work paradigms which I don't think goverments have figured out yet.

So, supposing one lives in Mexico and his clients are outside of the country, where's his income earned?

--Larry

Probably according to tax collectors in both places. Uncle Sam gets his cut.

Jeez, I hope I'm not taking a job away from someone living in the United States.

bajalou - 6-30-2007 at 05:40 PM

Sounds line "Out Sourcing" of jobs to me.

Weeding them out !

MrBillM - 6-30-2007 at 06:03 PM

Step by Step. Enhance border enforcement. Build the fencing first that will detour the migration into more unfavorable natural climate. Use the technology, including Aerial Recon. Make the Employer sanctions heavy enough and make examples of the first ones prosecuted. Fear is a superb motivator.

It doesn't have to be done in one day-week-month-year-decade. ANY reduction will be an improvement.

Taking the opposite viewpoint, we might as well give up on law enforcement completely since we'll never catch every Murderer, Rapist, Robber or Thug. Why bother ? Speaking of which, we can find the first candidates for deportation in our prison systems where up to 25 % of the prison population are illegal immigrants.

Fence by Minutemen...

Baja_Girl - 6-30-2007 at 06:34 PM

BorderFence.jpg - 20kB

Iflyfish - 6-30-2007 at 07:36 PM

Having just seen Sicko, I would suggest that it is clearly in the interests of the ruling class of the USofA to have a cheap work force that lives in fear and impotence.

The alternative, which we have lost, is an active and forceful electorate who those in power FEAR. The French have this. The British a sense of social responsibility that grew out of their wartime devistation and the realization that they were in this thing TOGETHER and that they needed to provide for "the least of these" as they all were a step away from that position, as we are in the USofA now. We are all one step away from bankruptsy if we suffer a major injury or illness. Even if we have insurance!
The interests of "the least of these" are clearly our interests too.

My concern in all of this is that the freightedned, disenfranchised illegal imigrants further adds to the population of legal working people who are now being screwed by Corporate America. These illegal immigrants as with most of the working people in the USofA feel powerless and impotent to actually have our fundamental needs, such as Universal Health Care addressed.

Until we, the people, learn to stop defending the positions of our upper class and the rights of corporations, and start focusing on our own legitimate needs, this sort of distracting gridlock will stay in place and continue to keep our focus away from confronting the issues that directly affect all of us.

Don't stand up and fight for Universal Care! It is Communistic, Socialistic, some sort of istic....and so you should continue to support the upper class who know what is good for you. This is just an example. We aught to be taking to the streets in face of this immoral and illegal war, confronting the wholesale sale of our resources to corporate america in the name of privatization, but the populace is too afraid and focused on survival. Like the frog who is boiled in what starts out to be cold water, we simmer in our fear like the poor Mexican immigrant who just wants to get along.

I believe that the low polling numbers reflect a growing discomfort with the
satus quo and an awakening of awareness that we are getting screwed, all of us, by the same slimeballs who brought us Viet Nam and now Iraq. Self Interested Legislators and corporate big wigs who line their pockets with the spoils of war and with the tax dollars that we give them that could be used to provide us with medical care, free public education thru college and a host of other services that would benifit us all.

It is amazing to me how the people of the USofA could over and over vote for people who are directly opposted to their own self interest. It truly amazes me.

My father, a union man, voted for Richard Nixon.....jaw dropping amazing. I think he was afraid of "rocking the boat" and maybe electing people who would do "socialist" things. Ya pop, like the library? Like the Post Office? Like the Departent of Transportation? Like Social Security? Amazing. We are now reaping the harvest of his hard work and his brainwashing. Socialism/bad, Free Boot Capitalism Good.

Iflyfish

Bajalover - 6-30-2007 at 07:44 PM

Agree with "bajafun777" If the Gov'mnt wanted to do ANYTHING besides talk and gain support for their OWN cause - they'd change " 1 LAW - BABIES BORN IN USA TAKE NATIONALITY OF PARENTS AND NOT BE --- AUTO :fire:

USA CITIZENS"

That's all there is and nothing else matters at this stage. It'll change the demographics quickly in various parts of the country.

If the Gov't doesn't stir the pot on occassions to get the public excited, they'll think they're not doing enough for their pockets. :biggrin:

so much for that !
Nothing, Repeat Nothing is going to happen in the area of an Immigration Bill being passed by our government. Who wants to lose their government pension for something so big that if it stays going around and around in a circle they can talk it to death. So, liberals and conservatives can all rest easy and keep a sharp eye out for each other but nothing is going to happen. Too many lobbists, too many guest speaking engagements with big money, and too stressful for our elected government officials to handle. The elected officials would much rather keep the heat on the streets and on television as it just keeps going in circles, just ask "Willie" like the song says. I just want some peace and enjoyable days with the time I may have left and I cannot let elected officials take that away from me with their nonesense of running in circles. No fight Be Happy life is too short to take ourselves serious anymore, as no one else does. Just ask the 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants!!!!!! Later-----Bajafun777

Iflyfish - 6-30-2007 at 07:45 PM

Grover,

And a shot at citizenship too. Recruiting posters now all around Latin America. I recall this same strategy used by the Romans to fill their ranks......created a lot of really peeed off soldiers when they didn't produce the promised citizenship.

Iflyfish

oldhippie - 7-1-2007 at 06:31 AM

THE fix for illegal immigration into the US from Mexico is to eliminate the desire to go to the US. What India has done in training a high tech generation is not lost on Mexican educators. Ensenada now has the required schools and programs to train techies. There is a long way to go but it can happen quickly. Anybody with the aptitude can learn to do what I do (write software) without a classroom nor books. The Internet is the University of Software Engineering, complete with tutorials, examples, and people willing to help from around the world. The computer programming message boards are some of the oldest on the Internet.

The leveling of the playing field is the most important task in solving the illegal immigration problem. The Internet just may be the great equalizer.

However, a guest worker program is needed for farm workers. The substantial number of uneducated Mexican workers need jobs and jobs for them exist in the United States. So why not create an above board migrant worker program for them instead of maintaining the underground illegal worker system that is now used?

To the fence builders I say go ahead, build the fence. It may stop some and the I'm real used to the US wasting my tax dollars on useless programs. Remember tho, over half the illegals in the US walked right by the immigration officials with valid visas and then overstayed their visas. Another huge percentage walked right by the immigration officials with phoney documents.

So the fence certainly will not stop illegal immigration. It will help my tunnel boring equipment sales business though. Which, by the way, is entirely legal. I'm not responsible for what people do with the equipment after the purchase. Just like the gun sellers of the world.

The two man, portable, and quiet running "San Ysidro or Bust" model is selling very well.

[Edited on 7-1-2007 by oldhippie]

oldhippie - 7-1-2007 at 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lenchoThe bubble of young tech-savvy college grads is becoming visible as they incorporate into the main infraestructure of the country, which I suspect is now modernizing at a much higher rate than in the U.S.

Encouraging, and at the same time scary.

--Larry

Why's that scary? It's a good thing.

oldhippie - 7-1-2007 at 08:38 AM

'93 was the early Internet days in any country. Pre-browser days.

I guess I don't understand your fears.

[Edited on 7-1-2007 by oldhippie]

border fence yesterday

oldhippie - 7-1-2007 at 09:31 AM

border fence.jpg - 41kB

DENNIS - 7-1-2007 at 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Ah. Do you fully trust the Mexican government?

--Larry

Well, no. Why do you ask?

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