BajaNomad

No Poverty in Baja ???

Diver - 7-6-2007 at 09:04 PM

I wonder what they use as a criteria for "poverty" ??

MEXICO CITY – Poverty affects nearly half of Mexico's population, but levels vary significantly throughout the country, reaching their highest in the southeast, officials said Wednesday.

The southern state of Chiapas, with a 75.7 percent poverty rate, is Mexico's poorest, while the northern border state of Baja California has the lowest poverty, at 9.2 percent, according to The National Council for the Evaluation of Social Development Policy.The council released data in the form of maps that, for the first time, pinpointed poverty rates at the local and statewide level in the country's 31 states and the capital, Mexico City.

According to the maps, which the council based on national poverty figures in 2005, the poorest states after Chiapas are Guerrero, Oaxaca and Tabasco. All three are in the south and have poverty rates of at least 59 percent.

The least impoverished states, besides Baja California, are Baja California Sur and the northeastern state of Nuevo Leon, with respective poverty rates of 27.5 percent and 23.5 percent. Mexico city places third with 31.8 percent.

In 2005, poverty affected nearly 45 million people in Mexico, or about 47 percent of its population. Of that number, 18.2 percent live in conditions of “extreme poverty,” described as being too poor to even feed one's family.

“Mexico is a country of great contrasts. ... The inequality is embarrassing,” council representative Juan Angel Rivera said.

bajamigo - 7-6-2007 at 09:14 PM

In a country where the minimum wage is something less than $5 per day, poverty must truly be something to behold.

:no:

DENNIS - 7-6-2007 at 09:21 PM

It's a plaintive cry for socialism. This is what caused Mexico's 20th century revolution. It couldn't happen again because most of the guns belong to the military. The other guns belong to the cartels who support the military when they support them, which is often.
So, the only answer left is to arm one side or the other, or both, and let them have at it.
Then, big-bomb the winner.
Just like the middle east.

Bajafun777 - 7-6-2007 at 09:24 PM

Mexico is connecting with China in hopes of bringing their new found monies to build more factories in Mexico to bring more jobs. The bad thing is that the worker will see little in the way of increased pay levels to help lift them out of poverty. Education is the key to bringing Mexico up and out of this tireless circle that drowns its people. Corruption is the thing that keeps pulling them down in the deep holes that never seem to have a means to get out. It seems like the more that some of the people that made enough monies in the U.S.A. return and challenge these problems maybe they will have some oppurtunies to start changing their poverty levels, maybe just maybe. bajafun777

DENNIS - 7-6-2007 at 09:24 PM

Oh yeah.....I forgot

You can't have socialism without a tax base.

Mango - 7-6-2007 at 09:48 PM

There is indeed poverty in Baja Norte and Sur; but, I'd also guess the populations are lower than almost any other Mexican state.

While I would agree that there are many poor people in Baja. There are far more poor people in the mainland. In Mexicali, I've noticed that not many people ride the buses. So many people own cars and seem to be pretty well off.

I've traveled through almost every state in Mexico at one time or another and my perception is that there are far more poor people in the southern regions. You can also tell the area is poor, not merely by perception; but, because things like food, hotels, etc. tend to cost much less in the southern states.

Many people still use the barter system in poorer areas. They tend to be able to put food on the table and a roof ever their heads. In many cases they don't really need money to exist as they do, as they essentially live off the land.. which is much easier to do in the forest/jungle than it is in the desert.


bajajudy - 7-6-2007 at 09:51 PM

I think I read that Slim generated 8% of the gnp(different initials in Mexico).

DENNIS - 7-6-2007 at 09:58 PM

Mango.....

Great foto. Calendar quality.

DENNIS - 7-6-2007 at 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajajudy
I think I read that Slim generated 8% of the gnp(different initials in Mexico).

I read that his GNP was as much or more than Paraguay.

amir - 7-6-2007 at 10:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
... This is what caused Mexico's 20th century revolution. It couldn't happen again because most of the guns belong to the military ...


Maybe there can be a revolution without guns.
Dennis, you think of something...

DENNIS - 7-6-2007 at 10:14 PM

OK Amir .....

I'm thinking- broken bones. Can you help there?

Paula - 7-6-2007 at 10:17 PM

Where was your picture taken, Mango?

BAJACAT - 7-6-2007 at 10:31 PM

The funny thing is, that the world riches Man lives in Mexico,and he is Mexican.How can people live on $5 a day.And then we ask why do they imigrated to The USA.There is your answer..Baja might be poor,but it's rich in some many other ways...

DENNIS - 7-6-2007 at 10:34 PM

Well said, BAJACAT

Thanks

The dinero does not move fast enough.

bajamigo - 7-7-2007 at 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajajudy
I think I read that Slim generated 8% of the gnp(different initials in Mexico).


And therein lies the problem. Slim and his gato gordo friends absorb a disproportionate share of earnings in this country, but either don't understand or don't care about the concept of the velocity of money.

For example, during a year, a particular $10 bill might have been used as follows: a baker, Juan, pays the $10 to a tomato farmer, Jorge. The tomato farmer uses the $10 bill to buy potatoes from Chuy, who uses the $10 bill to buy sugar from Tomas. The $10 here served in three transactions. This means that the $10 bill was used three times during the year; its velocity is therefore 3.

In short, a $10 bill, circulating with a velocity of "3," financed $30 worth of transactions in that year. In Mexico, the velocity of money in recent years has approached MINUS .5

These guys sit on on their dough or park it in Switzerland or the Caymans, and they probably even stuff their mattresses with it. And they sure as hell don't give it away.

Thus, everyone down the food chain never sees the money, and poverty results. In the meantime, their compadres are up in the States creating enough value to send money home. Good for the folks in the short run, but whatever value they're creating up north is in a country that isn't Mexico.

Don Alley - 7-7-2007 at 11:15 AM

Mexico needs investment to create economic activity to create incomes.

Now I have a little money to invest. Yet all Mexico seems to want from me, in terms of investment, is to buy property and build on it. Then maybe hire a maid and buy a few groceries and trinkets, and go out to dinner. Any real BUSINESS investment, well, red tape, work restrictions, prohibitive duties and broker fees at the border...forget it. And I doubt if the overall investment climate is attractive to Carlos Slim either.

They had better figure out that pumping crude and developing scenic coastlines and netting everything that swims in the seas cannot last forever. If Mexico doesn't stop strip mining its assets these will be the "good old days" and we'll see poverty far beyond what there is today.

And I wish Carlos Slim's people would fix my dammed home phone so I can call cell phone #s. Why is it the richest guys in the world produce such crap?:fire:

Cypress - 7-7-2007 at 11:21 AM

Mango, Neat picture. Thanks. That property would be worth a small fortune down in Baja.:yes:

toneart - 7-7-2007 at 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajamigo
Quote:
Originally posted by bajajudy
I think I read that Slim generated 8% of the gnp(different initials in Mexico).


And therein lies the problem. Slim and his gato gordo friends absorb a disproportionate share of earnings in this country, but either don't understand or don't care about the concept of the velocity of money.

For example, during a year, a particular $10 bill might have been used as follows: a baker, Juan, pays the $10 to a tomato farmer, Jorge. The tomato farmer uses the $10 bill to buy potatoes from Chuy, who uses the $10 bill to buy sugar from Tomas. The $10 here served in three transactions. This means that the $10 bill was used three times during the year; its velocity is therefore 3.

In short, a $10 bill, circulating with a velocity of "3," financed $30 worth of transactions in that year. In Mexico, the velocity of money in recent years has approached MINUS .5

These guys sit on on their dough or park it in Switzerland or the Caymans, and they probably even stuff their mattresses with it. And they sure as hell don't give it away.

Thus, everyone down the food chain never sees the money, and poverty results. In the meantime, their compadres are up in the States creating enough value to send money home. Good for the folks in the short run, but whatever value they're creating up north is in a country that isn't Mexico.


That's all too pedantic for me. (I was an English major). :spingrin: I don't do numbers well. I just want the money to walk directly from Carlos Slim to my pocket. :light:

Mango,
Where was that photo taken? It is really a good photo. I want to live there in poverty.

DENNIS - 7-7-2007 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley

Why is it the richest guys in the world produce such crap?:fire:

Because he has no competition.

bajamigo - 7-7-2007 at 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
Any real BUSINESS investment, well, red tape, work restrictions, prohibitive duties and broker fees at the border...forget it.


Google this company: Fomento Economico Mexicano, S.A.B. De C.V. It's traded on the NYSE and has treated me very well over the years.

:bounce:

toneart - 7-7-2007 at 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho


Wealth at that level is beyond my comprehension. What motivates folks like Slim or Gates? Sheer mortality? One thing for sure, they're way beyond transcending base material concerns and now have to deal with their face in the mirror in a manner that most folks never will...

--Larry


Yeah, Larry! Interesting contemplation.....matters of the soul.

wilderone - 7-9-2007 at 09:01 AM

Much of the poverty in the southeast states (Chiapas, et al.) is self-imposed by the Mexican government. Those states are heavily populated by indigenous, and the government, through its army, has tried genocide, with the massacres of Acteal, military encampments and displacement, collaborating with multinationals in taking their land for oil and coffee, thus pushing them to live in the highlands where the land is steep and rocky where corn does not grow as abundantly; the government does not give the indigenous communities funds for schools, medical clinics; drill wells for clean water; the multinationals do not deal with them fairly in purchasing their coffee, i.e., there is no market for crops; US multinationals have tried mightily to replace numerous indigenous corn species, which have evolved and endured for centuries, with bioengineered corn. The indigenous were successful in keeping out the bioengineered corn - if it had succeeded, it would never have fed those dependent on it.

I can fix it for you

Dave - 7-9-2007 at 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
And I wish Carlos Slim's people would fix my dammed home phone so I can call cell phone #s.


How much is it worth? ;D

Iflyfish - 7-9-2007 at 03:08 PM

"Baja California Sur and the northeastern state of Nuevo Leon, with respective poverty rates of 27.5 percent and 23.5 percent."

Now if this were Mexican FOX (News?) reporting that would be a "wealth" rate for nearly 2/3 of Baja Sur residents living in luxury.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 7-9-2007 at 03:13 PM

It all depends on how you spin it:

Just copied from Google News, two different papers, two different headlines.

Bush Officials Say No Plan to Change Iraq Strategy Now, Voice of America

White House in 'Panic Mode' Over GOP Revolt on Iraq, ABC News

Iflyfish

Stickers - 7-10-2007 at 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
Much of the poverty in the southeast states (Chiapas, et al.) is self-imposed by the Mexican government. Those states are heavily populated by indigenous, and the government, through its army, has tried genocide, with the massacres of Acteal, military encampments and displacement, collaborating with multinationals in taking their land for oil and...........


Unfortunately sounds like the U.S. for the last 200 years. Nothin changes just a different time frame. We fixed it up here though - casinos - :lol::lol::lol:

bacquito - 7-10-2007 at 08:09 AM

I have been traveling Mexico as a tourist for about 30 years and have seen positive changes. For example in my extended family my wife is Mexican, she had no chance for a formal education and this is also true with her brothers and sisters-they are from Dist. Federal. However, the- children of my wife's brothers and sisters and my wife's children have in many cases obtained advanced education- University degrees.
Also I have seen improvements in infrastructures-highways, airports,etc.
Walmart, Homedepot, and other large corporations would not be putting stores here if they did not have faith in Mexico's future.
I agree that there is poverty in Mexico, Mexico recognizes it and hopefully in the recognizition of this fact, they will work to correct it.

bajamigo - 7-10-2007 at 08:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bacquito
I agree that there is poverty in Mexico, Mexico recognizes it and hopefully in the recognizition of this fact, they will work to correct it.


Great story, and I applaud your family's achievements. But somehow I doubt that they got much help from the government. In a system where free education ends at the sixth grade, poverty will tend to replicate itself. Charging a family in poverty $150+/year for tuition, not counting books, uniforms, transportation, etc., creates enough of a barrier to guarantee change won't be happening real fast.

TMW - 7-10-2007 at 05:21 PM

There is poverty everywhere in every country. The key has been and always will be education and that doesn't necessarily mean in a school house. There are many ways to educate yourself. When one applies their education with their various experiences they will move ahead gaining more experience and education. It's the choices one makes in life that determine where you will go and what you will become. This applies to all except the mental and physical handicapped to certain degrees and that's where the government, churches and other charity organizations must step in.

We talk of Slim being so wealthy but what about the people who own and run the big grocery stores, hotels and resturants. Auto dealers and TV and radio stations. The factories have managers and supervisors of all levels. Surely most of these people are very well to do and some must be rich by any standard. The people that run PEMEX and the power companies. I think there are more well to do people than some think just because much of the Mexican economy is by cash and therefore hard to track. If you had a business and was paid mostly in cash how would the government know how much you made. In the U.S. it could come back to bite you when you retire because it would affect your social security.

vgabndo - 7-10-2007 at 10:00 PM

Here's another slant on poverty in Baja as it relates to the rest of the world. I posted it as its own thread, but it was moderated directly to off-topic. I disagree. I think that poverty is a relative thing and that seeing Baja's poverty in context is important. I hope you don't also think I'm wasting your time.

http://www.miniature-earth.com/me_english.htm

elizabeth - 7-11-2007 at 06:48 AM

I wondered what happened to that thread! I saw it, clicked on the link, and went back to it, and it was gone! Thanks, V for posting it. Perhaps it is more appropriate here, and it offers a good perspective on poverty.